What happen to Milwaukee Road?

[solzrules]

This is a great discussion. I am sorry the Milwaukee didn't survive. Being that I wasn't even born before the '77 bankruptcy, I am even more disappointed I couldn't see the railroad in its prime. Those pictures are great! Too bad that the PCE was abandoned in 1980. I agree with a previous post. I think that the abandonment was a terrible mistake, but hindsight is always 20/20. I have also followed the ROW though Montana, S. Dakota, Idaho, and Minnesota. Some of it is still a railroad. BNSF runs unit trains of grain and corn on the old transcon in S.D. I have pictures, if you would like to see them. I wonder what Worth Smith or Curt Crippen would have thought if they had known their arch-rival would own that line today. Once you get past Terry, there is nothing but scarred earth where the ROW was. I got a lot of pictures of trestles without rails, discarded ties, even some spikes, but not much else. By Forsyth, there is still a powerhouse standing! I also found a couple of signal masts out in the back country of Montana. They make great pictures, but they would have been even better with a train on them. The MILW RD. could be a powerhouse of intermodal today. And coal. One thing I also noticed when following the ROW. Make sure you have a full tank of gas and good tires. You are so far out in the boonies that any break downs could be a disaster!

[packers97]

Hits at my heart zgardner. I was born in 74, and watched milwaukke trains in Wisconsin untill the end. As I read about it, I always wanted to see where it went, particularly montana. I have accumulated numerous books on the railroad, and have taken three weeklong backpacking trips (a night at a time) along the old right of way.
There is a lot of history behind that railroad, and its route. The short, short story is that it was the last transcon built. So all the "good" routes, and cities were taken.
I could drone on and on, but if you want to know more there are 5 great souces: "Milwaukee Electics" by Noel T Holey, "The Electric Way Across the Mountains"by Richard Steinhiemer, "The nation Pays again" by Thomas Ploss"(describes why the railroad went bankrupt from an insider, it's the original enron)
the Hiawatha trail on the right of way through the Idaho Montana border, and best of all the Milwaukee Road Historical Association (www.mrha.com).
If you are at all interested in what happened to the railroad, and its relationship with BN/NP, read "The Nation Pays Again"

[solzrules]

That Ploss book was really interesting. He really laid out what happened in those last couple of years, and more improtantly, the corporate culture that prefaced the downfall. It is hard to read if you are a fan, but interesting all the same.

[MichaelSol]

http://webhome.idirect.com/~helmutw/milwrd/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milwaukee_Road

http://www.trainweb.org/milwaukee/article.html

http://www.trainweb.org/milwaukee/

http://www.eburg.com/~ghlawson/GeneHLawsonCollection.html

For ongoing discussion, http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/MILW/ has an extensive archive of commentary and discussion between Milwaukee officers and employees. Just about any controversy about the Milwaukee has been hashed over there in great detail ....

Michael Sol

[Anonymous]

If only snoqualimie pass could be reopened

[kenneo]

This is Homestake Pass. As a kid I rode the North Coast Limited down this hill, and it sure was something!

The west descent of Elk Park (I-15 out of Butte) is also spectacular. Only the upper half is still there. The mine took the lower half.

[zgardner18]

QUOTE: Originally posted by packers97

Hits at my heart zgardner. I was born in 74, and watched milwaukke trains in Wisconsin untill the end. As I read about it, I always wanted to see where it went, particularly montana. I have accumulated numerous books on the railroad, and have taken three weeklong backpacking trips (a night at a time) along the old right of way.
There is a lot of history behind that railroad, and its route. The short, short story is that it was the last transcon built. So all the "good" routes, and cities were taken.
I could drone on and on, but if you want to know more there are 5 great souces: "Milwaukee Electics" by Noel T Holey, "The Electric Way Across the Mountains"by Richard Steinhiemer, "The nation Pays again" by Thomas Ploss"(describes why the railroad went bankrupt from an insider, it's the original enron)
the Hiawatha trail on the right of way through the Idaho Montana border, and best of all the Milwaukee Road Historical Association (www.mrha.com).
If you are at all interested in what happened to the railroad, and its relationship with BN/NP, read "The Nation Pays Again"

You know, it wasn't until I went up to Bozeman before I fell in love with Railroad History. It was mainly due to the Milwaukee Road. All of that history through Montana was amazing. I would have love, or will love to do a week long backpack of the old rails. As you can see from my pictures, I took a couple of hours to hike back to that tunnel, which Chad was right, did look too small for a train. Even Bozeman had some Milwaukee Road history with the old Station that sat out from Four Corners (I Forgot It's Name).

Kenneo, I'm jealous that you got to ride the North Coast Limited down that hill. Those Passes of Montana are nothing short of beautiful. Just look at Mullan Pass if any of you get the change to go there.

[packers97]

[[yellow]

[ddechamp71]

For all Milwaukee Road fanatics, I recommend a very interresting DVD from Pentrex. I don't remember the name of this DVD (I lent it to a friend and I'm waiting he returns it to me), but there are a lot of great sequences, including Electric Box Cabs and Little Joes from Avery to Harlowton, and furthermore all the diesel operated branch lines radiating around Butte.

I think one can find this video on the Pentrex website. If some are interrested please send me mps, and I'll give them the name and reference as soon as I've caught up my DVD.

Dominique

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol

http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/MILW has an extensive archive of commentary and discussion between Milwaukee officers and employees.

What officers?

And by the way, Sargeant of Arms, Milwaukee Bowling League, Three Forks Chapter, does not count as a Milwaukee officer.

[MichaelSol]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cornmaze

QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol

http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/MILW has an extensive archive of commentary and discussion between Milwaukee officers and employees.

What officers?

And by the way, Sargeant of Arms, Milwaukee Bowling League, Three Forks Chapter, does not count as a Milwaukee officer.

Of course, by now, most senior executives at the Milwaukee would be in their 80s and 90s so the past few years have taken their toll. Wally Abbey, Director of Corporate Communications was a big contributor, and posted extensive interesting commentary in the Spring of 2001 about his tenure at Milwaukee during the critical years 1976-1980. Wally and I had discussions there which Fred Hyde describes as a "titanic debate" about the circumstances of the Milwaukee Road bankruptcy and subsequent reorganization.

Marty Garelick, VP Operations was on for a while, CK Dunnning, director of intermodal pricing, Ed Stoll, VP Industrial Development, through intermediaries such as myself WL Smith, President, and Paul Cruikshank, VP Operations, contribute although not list members, George Flynn, Milt Clark, Ed Emanuel, its mostly Milwaukee people from some position or another. Ed Emanuel seems to have known everyone, and so often intermediates between discussions on the list, and, say, Warren Ploeger, VP Lines West and Western General Counsel, or George Frazier, Electrical Engineer. Most currently active Milwaukee Road historians are there, Stan Johnson, Fred Hyde, Doug Nihswonger, Noel Holley, Kurt Armbruster, Kim Tschudy, Rick Mills, Mike Schafer, it has been quite a list. Some knowledgeable BN people, as well. However Yahoo took down its membership lists a couple of years ago, and so who might actually be on there is not known unless they actually post.

The archives there basically contain the entire history of the Milwaukee Road discussed in detail from an "insider's" perspective.

Don't know the Sargeant of Arms from Three Forks.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol
Wally and I had discussions there which Fred Hyde describes as a "titanic debate"

so you're a titan then?

[CMSTPP]

I can discribe briefly for you since it happened over a hundred years.
There first bankruptcy happened back in the 1890's when a depression occured. This hurt the railroad from the start.
There second bankruptcy happened in the 1930's with the second depression. There electric locomotives brought in quite allot of revenue, Untill the merger of The BN. Then the milwaukee road had to face one the largest railroads in the USA. They were beaten out untill in 1980 the Milwaukee suffered it's last bankruptcy and the Soo line bought what ever was left of the Milwaukee road. My father caught a good portion of the Milwaukee road before the locomotives were painted into the soo line. Not all were repainted.
Just about 2 weeks ago there was a bandit unit at rice point yard in Duluth MN. An old GP38-2. There is still a bunch around. Look hard and you will indeed find them.

IF THERE ARE ANY QUESTIONS ABOUT THE MILWAUKEE GIVE ME A HEADS UP AND I WILL CURTAINLY TRY AND ANSWER IT FOR YOU. IF YOU WANT E-MAIL ME ON ANYTHING OF THE MILWAUKEE.
This is the railroad I have studied through out my life. I know allot about the history and almost anything you need to know.

James

[MichaelSol]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cornmaze

QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol
Wally and I had discussions there which Fred Hyde describes as a "titanic debate"

so you're a titan then?

Well, it was Wally Abbey who was the genuine article. He was the fellow responsible for the "SOO" Line public relations transformation, and was quite a dynamic influence at Milwaukee Road. Worth Smith was glad to get him to head the "Corporate Communications" Dept. when Chet Dilley retired. If you go a long, long ways back, early 1950s, in TRAINS magazine, you will see a great deal of work, both articles and photographs, by "Wallace W. Abbey". Like most of the rest of the survivors, he is elderly now, but still quite active. He and his wife Martha are getting along in their retirement years in Colorado.

[solzrules]

CMSTPP do you have any pics? I got some, but I have to scan them in, and I haven't quite figured out how to make it look good yet. Bandits are great if you can find them.

[CMSTPP]

QUOTE: Originally posted by solzrules

CMSTPP do you have any pics? I got some, but I have to scan them in, and I haven't quite figured out how to make it look good yet. Bandits are great if you can find them.

Unfortunatley no I don't have any pics. I wish I had but I was on Interstate 35 running past and I noticed the locomotive in Rices point. Believe me I wish I could have gotten down there. Unfortunatley only employees are aloud in the yard and I can't stop on the interstae. I was heading over to supieror to drop a gift off to someone.
The next time I see it I will get a picture. In fact This week end I will be going down to rices points CP yard (different than rices point) and there for there switching power they have an ex milwaukee road GP38-2. Right now it is painted for soo line but it is easy to tell if it were milwaukee road or not. The gas tank has been shortened and you know how the Milwaukee liked to buy there locomotives with smaller gas tanks.
Anyway If this forum is up in a week I will have them posted.

James

Any other questions?

[solzrules]

Also, there are some MP15AC's out there yet in the bandit scheme. I haven't snapped a pic of those because they tend to stay in the yard (no tresspassing). Every once in a great while they will transfer one between Milwaukee, Chicago, or Pig's Eye in St. Paul. I have seen them out on the road. Of course I don't have a camera that would have to figure.

[CMSTPP]

The MP15's come here to Duluth once in a while. I have a friend that works out of CP rails north town yard in ST. Paul and he see the units almost every day.

James

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CMSTPP

Any other questions?

Does CN operate the former Milwaukee Road Green Bay line from Kiel north to Hilbert Jct., and are the rails still in place from Hilbert north to Greenleaf ?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CMSTPP
There electric locomotives brought in quite allot of revenue, Untill the merger of The BN. Then the milwaukee road had to face one the largest railroads in the USA.

It had been my view in the 1980's post-PCE retrenchment that the Milwaukee should have asked for far greater trackage rights over the BN system as a condition of the 1970 BN merger. Namely, I felt Milwaukee should have asked for access of the entire SP&S trackage and the I-5 corridor from Portland to the Canadian border south of Vancouver. This would have allowed them to access the same PNW markets as BN over the same more direct and low grade routes.

I think it was Micheal Sol who indirectly backed up this view when he stated that, in retrospect, the Milwaukee pretty much could have gotten anything they asked from BN since the Hill Lines were so desperate to consolidate.

If Milwaukee had gotten these conditions, the subsequent abandonment of the electrification would not have had such a negative impact on Milwaukee's ability to handle heavy haul trains to PNW ports. Because of the electrification, Milwaukee had the best line for unit grain trains, as the electrification more than mitigated the 2% of Pipestone, the 1.7% of St. Paul Pass, and the 2.2% westbound over the Saddle Mountains. When the Milwaukee gave up the electrification, this shifted the heavy haul advantage to the BN via Marias Pass and the Columbia Gorge. But with the SP&S/I-5 trackage rights, perhaps they could have maintained their advantage.

If the Milwaukee directors had already made the decision to forego electrification at the time of the BN merger, then an additional trackage request would probably include the GN from Great Falls over Marias to Spokane, the NP from St. Regis to Spokane via Sandpoint, and the NP from Pasco to Thorp.

With these conditions the Milwaukee would have more than survived, because it then would have had access to all low grade routes in the PNW, while having sole access to the lowest grade crossing of the Cascades to Puget Sound.

[solzrules]

I think the Milwaukee Road had an inferiority complex. This was apparent after reading Ploss's book. When BN merged in the the early 70's the whole attitude was 'how can we merge with them?'. Instead, they should have recognized that the Milwaukee Road was a railroad that could have competed with the transcons. I realize that Ploss's book is biased, but the actions of the MILW RD BOD speaks for itself. First they wanted to merge with CNW, then with BN. For years these railroads were hated competitors, and then all of the sudden they were going to partner up? Milwaukee was at fault for pretending that the BN wanted to help them. They didn't. Milwaukee should have merged with the CNW and then given the BN a real run for their money. Today, the Milwaukee could be a huge successful railroad. They could be hauling coal out of the PRB (after laying some track of course). They could be hauling intermodal on their transcon that would rival BNSF's transcon and UP's overland route. Milwaukee shops could still be open, servicing the railroad away from the congested rail hell in Chicago.
They could be providing competitive rates in MT, ID, S.D. and N.D. Unfortunately, the directors of the Milw Rd only saw the railroad as an entity to be merged in with a larger railroad in the early 70's. Never did anyone realize that the Milw Rd. could be a UP or a BNSF. They had a transcontinental line, something most railroads did not. In a way, I think the Milwaukee's fate was sealed in 1970, not 1985.

[packers97]

I tend to agree with you futuremodal (in this thread). But hindsight is 20-20, and there has always been speculation that the highest levels of management at Milwaukee in the 70's just didn't want a railroad anymore. The real estate it owned would be more profitable than the business. enter Chicago Milwaukee Corp. I refered to "The Nation Pays Again" earlier, and it points out something shocking: the railroads board of dirctors was not really accountable to the shareholders.
IF (I say IF) this is true, then I don't belive that an honest effort was ever made to obtain what they could from the BN merger. I going to back to the book, but I belive that the ICC actually asked Milwaukee if they wanted anything else from the merger, and Milwaukee declined!

[Anonymous]

If the Milwaukee would have asked for more trackage rights and possibly merged with another RR and/or get into the PRB they could have a Super Railroad and give BNSF and UP a Run for there money, and maybe there wouldn't so many congested spots on BNSF and UP.

[CMSTPP]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AMTK200

If the Milwaukee would have asked for more trackage rights and possibly merged with another RR and/or get into the PRB they could have a Super Railroad and give BNSF and UP a Run for there money, and maybe there wouldn't so many congested spots on BNSF and UP.

They did attempt to merge with the Chicago & North western many times to become the Milwaukee & North western. Unfortunately they were turned down all the times they tried. I wi***hey had merged that way the Milwaukee would have survived untill who knows when. The C& NW (If I'm not mistaken) lasted up untill the mid 90's or so.
So if they had merged they might have survived much, much longer.

nanaimo73: As far as I know I believe the CN still does. They do have a line running up to greenbay but I cannot say I am completely sure.
You might want to go do a little research and see what you find. Look at a railroad map and see If the line is used at all.

James

[solzrules]

As for the green Bay line, I think this is how it goes:

After the big rail embargo and susequent sell off in 1980 the Escanaba and Lake Superior bought the rail line from Green Bay to The upper penninsula. That part of the line is used fairly often. I think there is even some welded rail on it. From Green Bay south, however, that line has changed hands a couple of times. CN owned the line from North Milwaukee all the way to Green Bay. A year or two ago they wanted to abandon it but the residents along the line raised a stink about it and so the sate along with the Wisconsin and Southern RR bought the line from Saukville (?) to Green Bay. It was unusual because I think it was the first time I ever read about folks banding together and protesting a railroad for abandoning track. Usually the residents look on it as good riddance, no more ugly train tracks. Anyway, I think this is the basic idea, someone with more info may be able to explain it better.

[CMSTPP]

Thats better info and sounds more of what happened to the line.
I couldn't really remember but if I am not mistaken that pretty much sums up the green bay line.

James

[zgardner18]

You guys put some great incite into this topic for me, thanks. I hear you talk about when they had a chance to merge with Chicago & North Western, fill me in on why that didn't go through. I would think that if they did merge that they would have been great for the Northwest. After living in Montana and hearing how BNSF is ripping their farmers off. Plus I would love just to see more train companies out there now that all of them are merging. I'm too young to remember the good days of many railroads.

Also, were all of their lines at one time electrical?

[nanaimo73]

The Milwaukee Road and the Chicago and North Western almost merged during 1956. The C&NW was heading into bankruptcy at the time and the CMSP&P would have taken over.
During the 1950s the Minneapolis and St. Louis was doing very poorly. An attorney named Ben Heineman came along and saved the M&STL from going under. He then decided to add the Toledo, Peoria and Western to the M&STL to bypass Chicago. The PRR and the ATSF found out and stopped him, so he left the M&STL and moved on to the C&NW. He convinced the shareholders that letting him run their railroad was better than selling to the CMSP&P. Heineman cut costs, moderized the railroad, and expanded it by buying competitors, like the Litchfield and Madison, the M&STL and the Chicago Great Western. During this time the Milwaukee Road did very little and waited to merge with the C&NW. By the late 1960s the C&NW was ready to take over the Milwaukee Road. North Western Industries was also trying to grab BF Goodrich at that time, and that battle caused North Western stock to fall. That caused Heineman to change his mind and he sold the C&NW to the employees instead.

[MP173]

James:

I really like that photo you have in your post. What are the two men doing in front of the motors? It almost looks as if they are working on the rail or something.

thanks for the great photo.

ed

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173

James:

I really like that photo you have in your post. What are the two men doing in front of the motors? It almost looks as if they are working on the rail or something.

thanks for the great photo.

ed

looks like a thermite weld to me