The Rock Island Railroad

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MARYHANNA

Yes, The Rock Island was a mighty good road(like the song Said). They had bad management. Good management would of exploited their strenghts and
offset their weaknesses. For example, The Rock had the best route from
Kansas City to St. Paul. UP still uses the line. UP upgraded the Tucumcari
line. They never exploited whatever atvantages they had.

I agree about the routes. The railroads that got the good former RI lines knew they were good lines.

And- Welcome to the forum[:)]. The best way to keep an interesting thread going is to add to it.

[Tharmeni]

DMcCortney - since no one has jumped in to do it, let me welcome you to the forum. Don't be a stranger.

[Anonymous]

The Rock went down because the people that ran it were some of the worst managers I have ever seen on a railroad, I should know I work on the Rock in Chcicago for 18 years, started when I was 19 and worked until March 1980. worked as switchman, yard conductor, yard master and Union officer. I watched railroad officers in Blue Island cut yard crews off because they might make two hours overtime interchanging to either the GTW, IHB or B&OCT with 75 or more cars and that was in the days when railroads had connection times with other railroads and the rock would not make the connection and that would cost big bucks and that happened all the time, However they saved 2 hours over time but lost thousands on a lost connection. Although the Rock went down I did not; went to work for the CSX (Clinchfield) as conductor for nine years and then returned to Blus Island and worked for the IAIS from which I retired and that Railroad, which is the old Rock Island from Chicago to the Bluffs is doing just grate, the rock Island Officers could not run the Rock Island but the Iowa Officers can. what does that tell you about the people that ran the Rock.. I could go on for hours about how Rock Island mnagers caused that railroad to fail but some other time because it makes me sick just think about it.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tharmeni

DMcCortney - since no one has jumped in to do it, let me welcome you to the forum. Don't be a stranger.

[:I] Yes-welcome to the forum.

[daveklepper]

And if the railroads had been nationalized would there be any argument whatsoever about keeping long distance passenger trains?

[Anonymous]

Link to some great RI photos from the final years:
http://www.photosbystevenjbrown.com/archive/cri&p/therock.html

[greyhounds]

QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper

And if the railroads had been nationalized would there be any argument whatsoever about keeping long distance passenger trains?

Yes, there would be. Because I'd make it. A lot of people would join me. With long distance Amtrak trains, the people who use the train should pay for the train.

[Anonymous]

Here is a link to a very interesting account on the end of the Rockets 1979. Some commentary as well on the state of the railroad during the reorganization period.

http://groups.google.com/group/misc.transport.rail.americas/msg/320c1658985c92f7?dmode=source

"Between Silvis and Bureau, the RI had rebuilt the south track, and between Bureau and Joliet, it had rebuilt the north track. The rebuilt track generally was good for 60 mph while the other track was mostly 30 mph and even 15 mph in many places (pass train speeds)."

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken

Naimo & Murphy: If you look in the GLO index in the National Archives II and CRIP's 1918 Valuation papers, you might find that they did indeed. Tucked in with the GLO Filing Map for the BCR&N we found a portion of a CRIP Val Map ozalid (Marked "VOID" in grease pencil by an ICC Examiner in the Appraisal Section) - It was for Section Section 35, T 94 N, R56W; 5thPM In Yankton County crossing CB&Q. I often wonder what the University Libraries in Norman and Iowa City might have buried in those piles of correspondence paper.[%-)][%-)][%-)]

Might explain why they had a Dakota Division about that time. (Also what makes hours of map research interesting as well [:D])

[banghead][banghead][banghead][:D]

I found a rudimentary hunter's atlas that shows T94N, R56W as being at roughly Napa Junction, on the Milwaukee Road line from Yankton to Mitchell. I'll have to find a better map to check on township 35.

[Anonymous]

Anyone kow for sure what happened to the ex Rock Island Alco Century 415 #424?

Last I knew, in 1999 it was on a siding in Morris, Kansas. This unit was renumbered by PLM in Montana to #421. Not to be confused with the actual Rock Island #421 which was cut up along with 422 to keep 423 and 424 operational. Someone mentioned awhile back that the 424 was moving. What ever happened to it? Did it move, is it still stored?

The Buffalo Southern Railroad in New York has the #423. Would be nice to get the last two RI 415s back together.

Thanks,
Pat Connors

[Anonymous]

Lot's of interesting points about the demise of the Rock Island. Interesting how many believe that you can mis-manage anything. The point is, management can make mistakes, but it can only make good decisions based on what cards you have been dealt. As one who spent a decade of my 38 railroad years with Rock Island, I dispatched every mile of the railroad and knew just about every manager and every piece of the Company.

Rock Island had incredibly good employees and many darn good managers. It had few reasonable union leaders, however, who led good employees down the path to unemployment. Most of the Union leaders kept their positions with successor lines and cared little of the troops they had led. They were "frozen at the controls" when management tried to show new ideas to save the Company, they couldn't respond with anything except status quo.

Another point that has been missed: In the early 70's, I started dispatching at Des Moines and the C&NW began detouring grain trains over the line from Des Moines to Kansas City, primarily because of the condition and limited capacity of the CGW line. Traffic continued on Rock Island at a hectic pace, with tremendous growth in export corn and soybeans, wheat, etc. Jimmy Carter issued the Russian Grain Embargo and took everyone out of the rush. Had the embargo not been placed, cash flows would have been much better and the Spine, at least from Iowa Falls to Houston probably could have been rebuilt. As it was, there was no money for enough track work to eliminate the derailments, and the line could not survive on its own.

If ever management was remiss, it was during the Langdon era when maintenance was eliminated. Money formerly spent on capital trackwork and ordinary maintenance was now spent on derailments. It was a downward spiral that could not be recovered.

Not too many employees cared for the Ingram era management, especially the revolving door of people they brought in while ignoring the more experienced people already there. Notwithstanding this, to blame "mismanagement" of the railroad as the cause of its demise misses the broad picture of our regulated climate at the time and the ignorance of the unions.

One other point: A then-senior official of Union Pacific has said that Union Pacific offered major traffic diversions and funds to several points on the Rock Island, IE Chicago-Council Bluffs and to Kansas City, in exchange for Rock Island downgrading Co. Bluffs and KCity to Denver, but it was killed by the UTU and BLE.

[moparrailfan]

The Union Pacific has been upgrading the Spine Line from Mason City to Kansas City for awhile now. There are lots of days that the Spine can become congested in Des Moines,IA. They added a siding in Nevada shortly after they bought the CNW,and have been making other improvements. The Spine between Des Moines and Mason City can see upwards of 15-25 trains a day.

[Anonymous]

The Rock Island was always seemed to be overbuilt, poorly ran and most of all went places everyone esle did. I'm surprise why DRGW didn't buy the Denver-Omaha/Kansas City Line why was that?

[Anonymous]

The demise of the "Rock" was caused by three factors; it went everywhere in the Midwest its competitors did, but took a longer route, the ICC took an unseemly amount of time to decide the UP/CRIP merger request, and { due to the unseemly time in deciding the merger ) the Rocks' physical structure had deteriorated to the point where the UP backed out of the deal.

[bobwilcox]

After World War II and the rise of intercity motor carriers the Midwest had to many railroads. In Iowa you did not need to go more than 8 miles to reach a railroad. The people at the Rock Island and Milwaukee were unlucky. The Northwestern, Soo, Q, IC, GMO, Wabash, Katy, MP, Frisco, ATSF and Cotton Belt were lucky.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox

After World War II and the rise of intercity motor carriers the Midwest had to many railroads. In Iowa you did not need to go more than 8 miles to reach a railroad. The people at the Rock Island and Milwaukee were unlucky. The Northwestern, Soo, Q, IC, GMO, Wabash, Katy, MP, Frisco, ATSF and Cotton Belt were lucky.

Did all these railroads have lines into Iowa?

[bobwilcox]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox

After World War II and the rise of intercity motor carriers the Midwest had to many railroads. In Iowa you did not need to go more than 8 miles to reach a railroad. The people at the Rock Island and Milwaukee were unlucky. The Northwestern, Soo, Q, IC, GMO, Wabash, Katy, MP, Frisco, ATSF and Cotton Belt were lucky.

Did all these railroads have lines into Iowa?

No, but the all served the Midwest.

[mudchicken]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AMTK200

The Rock Island was always seemed to be overbuilt, poorly ran and most of all went places everyone esle did. I'm surprise why DRGW didn't buy the Denver-Omaha/Kansas City Line why was that?

More than just a little friction with UP, BN & MoPac.....especially the "screaming chicken".

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jumanly
Rock Island had incredibly good employees and many darn good managers. It had few reasonable union leaders, however, who led good employees down the path to unemployment. Most of the Union leaders kept their positions with successor lines and cared little of the troops they had led. They were "frozen at the controls" when management tried to show new ideas to save the Company, they couldn't respond with anything except status quo.

Following extracted from the Rock Island, "Employees' Newsletter" of 1979:

Employees' Newsletter - Tenth of '79
Two unions' leaders have not settled. The United Transportation Union (UTU) and the Brotherhood of Railway and Airline Clerks (BRAC) have steadfastly insisted upon retroactivity as a condition of settlement. Both UTU and BRAC leaders settled all other Rock Island issues months ago--when the retroactive pay issue was quite minor--but insisted upon retroactivity because, "that's the way it has always been done in the railroad industry."

Employees' Newsletter - Twelfth of '79
On August 9, the trustee issued a statement to employees confirming that during mediation the railroad had offered BRAC a UTU-type settlement, with increased wages immediately while advisory arbitration or a special board inquiry settle the retroactive pay issue. BRAC rejected the offer, as it has turned down the railroad's overtures since July 19 to resume negotiations.

Employees' Newsletter - Thirteenth of '79
BRAC President Kroll ordered a strike by The Rock's clerks, beginning at 6 a.m., Tuesday, August 28.
Tuesday afternoon, meantime, UTU, the only other union that has not finally settled with the Rock in the current round, informed the National Mediation Board that it would strike the railroad at 6 a.m. Wednesday.
...
The Rock Island does not have the resources to pay retroactivity. That was the key finding of Kay McMurray, the neutral member of the National Mediation Board special board of inquiry into the UTU-Rock retroactive pay dispute.
...
McMurray: "Whether or not this carrier could survive further economic warfare, the neutral must leave to the parties' judgement and the passage of time. Based on the record, the odds are against its survival."



For complete text, see:
http://storm.simpson.edu/~RITS/history.html
and navigate to the "labor issues" link.

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AMTK200

The Rock Island was always seemed to be overbuilt, poorly ran and most of all went places everyone esle did. I'm surprise why DRGW didn't buy the Denver-Omaha/Kansas City Line why was that?

When the ICC said UP could merge the CRI&Pat the end of 1974, one of the conditions was that the D&RGW could have the line to Omaha. They wanted the line to Kansas City.

At the start of 1980 the D&RGW was competing with the ATSF and the UP for transcon traffic, using the WP from Salt Lake City, the BN from Denver and the MP from Pueblo.
During January 1980 UP announced they were going to merge MP and WP cutting off the D&RGW. This was in reaction to the BN merging the SLSF.

I guess the D&RGW did not try to get the Rock Island's routes to Omaha and KC because they were fighting the UP mergers, and they wound up with rights to KC from Pueblo.

[Tharmeni]

I agree, jumanly. The UTU and BLE have always tried to distance themselves from the fall of The Rock, but they hold responsibility for much of the line's woes and eventual demise. I know, I was witness to it. To this day, the union leaders like to wear Teflon suits.

[bobwilcox]

I think the leaders of the Brotherhoods had two problems. If they agreed to givebacks at the Rock Island what would they do when the stonger Class I railroads came calling for the same concessions? Would they lose their jobs at the next election? On this last point, there was a huge turnover in union leadership during the 80s and 90s as the work rule changes and buyouts swept through the industry.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

The fear of setting precedent by granting concessions to the Rock Island has led to similar issues in trucking after deregulation. UPS was never part of the national agreement so its growth in the aftermath of dereg led to problems for the Teamsters as the carriers under the national agreement asked for the same workrules and other concessions that were given to UPS when it was a much smaller operation.

[route_rock]

Ok lets clear something up here. BRAC and UTU struck BLE and all the other unions signed with the Rock to a streamlined deal set to save money. BLE guys here were mad as hornets when BRAC struck followed by the UTU. The rest of hte unions had no choice but to honor the picket lines as managers had taken over the running of trains.
BRAC even said they woud NOT return to work unless they were paid 100% back wages. So carter said to and they refused. That lead to the directed service order.
I think its funny now that the BRAC merged in with the UTU and all the clerks jobs were sold down the river. Gotta laugh about that

[bobwilcox]

I wonder if this has come at the airlines. Legacy carries, such as United and Northwest, look at Southwest where 85% of the employees belong to a union.

[Anonymous]

Having worked for the Rock for 18 years in the Chicago Terminal as Switchman, Conductor, Yardmaster and Local Chairman UTU, started when I was 19 in 1962 and worked until March 1980, If you really want to know why the Rock Island went down ask the Crown Family. After the Rock went to CSX (Clinchfield-CC&O, Erwin, TN,) 9 years and finished back in Chicago with IAIS former Rock Island Route to the Bluffs. The rock employees worked them selfs to the bone to keep that railroad running and upper managemnet fought us at every turn, until we had enough and thook them to the street.
The Rock management could not run the route from Chicago to the Bluffs but IAIS can and make money doing it, that should tell you about the Idiots that were running the Rock Island, Isaw it first hand.

[Anonymous]

1981:  Liquidation time for The Rock.

(click to enlarge)

[SFbrkmn]

The March 1983 Trains is an all RI issue. One article of interest is on SSW  rebuilding the Golden State Route. Also within the article, the progress of a train running between KC & Tucumcari is covered.

[jimmac28]

Right on Gavrilrock I was there in the end to, I started in 1971. The employee’s wore that railroad out, because the Crown family felt that the Union Pacific would rebuild so why put any money in the railroad.

We hadn’t had a raise in three years, with no hope until they were forced to, also back pay was forced on them buy an arbitrator.

They wanted to run crews thirty days on and thirty days off, can you believe that, you could end up anywhere on the system.

No the employees and middle management wanted that railroad to survive it was their life!!

I’m thankful that this was bumped up or I would never have seen it.