The Rock Island Railroad

[Anonymous]

An utterly fascinating interview with John Ingram on the Rock Island, here:

http://storm.simpson.edu/~RITS/histories/JWIInterview/JWIInterview.html

"There is no doubt in my mind that the railroad could have become a very profitable billion dollar property by now..." - John W. Ingram, 1998

[Anonymous]

great stuff indeed! i've always wondered how busy the RI actually was across IL. nowadays there seems to be some fairly good online business from ottawa on east. too bad there aren't 30+ trains a day on there now.

[Murphy Siding]

cornmaze: That was an interesting read. Two thoughts I got out of it: Colonel Crown sounded like something of a bad hombre, and I'd have a hard time believing any investors would put up with 15 years of no profits on the belief that someday, RI would be a billion dollar property.

[Anonymous]

Also, you have to wonder what the clerks were thinking when they went on strike. That seems like it was the final nail in the Rock's coffin.

[CCDeWeese]

I was there from 1966 to 1970. Virtually everything said above is true, except that we really never thought we were doing well. We also did some things that, in hindsight (20/20 with trifocals) may not have been real smart. We got the Tucumcari line up to 70 mph in 1968 or so but keeping it there was a battle. Then, when the train ran 70 mph to a yard it would sit for an hour to get in. Derailments ate us alive. Bill Thompson was General Manager at the time, and he cut the speed limits 10 mph and saved a lot of derailment expense. We tried an overload program for grain not being interchanged, (we called it Volume Loading) to get more revenue per car but it beat bad track into not much left track. We tried a connection from Memphis to connect with the ATSF at Amarillo, but then we did stupid things like not spend 15 minutes of switch engine overtime to make the connection at Memphis.

[CCDeWeese]

As to the BRAC strike, there were a lot of people on the Rock that thought the U S government would save them.

[petervonb]

From the "That Whole Conrail Thing" thread:

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73
[Penn Central was losing over a million dollars a day and had hundreds of millions of dollars of defered maintenance. It took $7 billion in taxpayer money to get Conrail back into the shape it should be.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding
Sadly, this is the way I feel our airline industry is headed.

It is appropriate to feel that way because some in that industry appear to be descended from the same creeps who raped the railroads.

QUOTE: Originally posted by pchas

It is really a testament to the people of the Rock Island, and to a certain extent the Milwakee Road that despite such handicaps as avaricious owners who bled the company dry and incompetant management that they lasted as long as they did.

But it isn't always just the ripoff artists alone who wreck the companies.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding
[br I saw something written somewhere that said RI went everywhere Burlington went-only slower. While not exactly true, it does make a point.

So if the company is stronger, it probably just means it will be around paying off the avaricious [now it is the management and the Wall Street crowd] longer. Northwest Airlines was a solid, cash rich, relatively debt free airline until some guys decided to take it over in a leveraged buyout, saddling the company with tons of new debt.

They didn't have leveraged buyouts in the old days so the railroad rapists had to use dividends to suck the cash out more slowly.

Wonder if any of the current Class I railroads is or will soon be in a position for a leveraged buyout.

If it happens, watch out.

[Shayster]

My last ride on the "Rocket" was from Memphis to Mason City, Iowa on my way home after I got out of the Navy in 1961. It was on it's way to Mpls. I remember it fondly.

[K4s_PRR]

After the shut down the Rock sent all its motive power to El Reno, Ok. Some friends and I got permission from the trustee to roam the yard. To see every paint scheme used on those locomotives it was not hard to see that the railroad had been in BIG trouble. I have one photo that has four different paint schemes visible. Any RR not in trouble would have at least retired the oldest paint schemes.

Charles Sanchez

[Anonymous]

As just stated, The Rock also suffered from a deteriorating physical plant towards the end. Lots of slow orders and the like. Management chose to rebuild cars and locomotives, things that people see. They just let the track on to pot. They had so many derailments, that a lot of the cars just laid on the side on the tracks for months.

[Anonymous]

Just before it went broke it asked for a loan and didn't get it. SP also gave it a shot for awhile too

[Anonymous]

memphis offered little hope or help for rock island. its yard was stub end and opened
off a track classified as an L&N yard track. further, the only entry switch into the RI yard
faced east--yes, east. this meant RI arrivals had to pass beyond the switch and be
pulled in by a yard eng. departing the train was built with road power at the stub end and the train was pulled out of the yard by a switch eng. then on its westward way it
had to get by the entry wye into union station for MoP, Southern and L&N. Less than a
mile farther west, it crossed the IC and the wyes into central station used by RI and
Frisco and through traffic of the IC. the river bridge was shared with MoP and SSW.
SSW used the RI track from brinkley, ark, 70 miles west and had three times as many
freight trains as RI perhaps. L&N passenger trains and its SSW connecting freight also
used that yard track restricting access to the RI yard at times.

[pkielty]

I worked for the Engineering Dept in 1976 andearly 1977 when the ROCK was in receivership. I was just recently out of college, so I don't have a lot of perspective, but the railroad just about missed the big towns. It was a granger road. But I thouhgt that the real story was that Henry Crown ( owner of Material Service and General Dynamics) was the largest stockholder and was trying to liquidate the railroad for a long time. Now that little fact would be a good storyline for TRAINS magazine. When I worked there, a lot of young new blood came in. The ***'t Chief Engineer was a guy named Tom Schmidt. Does anyone out there know of Tom Schmidt? He lasted as long as the receivership lasted, or maybe even less. I worked out of Booneville Arkansas and El Reno OK. El Reno was dead, man, but Booneville and eastern OK , I fell in love with (for a city kid).

[mudchicken]

Schmidt wound up at ATSF on its Middle Division and now is at BNSF in the Southern California area on the Construction side of the Engineering dept.

[oldyardgoat]

What happened to the Rock Island was the bureauacracy called the ICC.
What happened to the RI almost happened to the entire industry.
Only the Staggers Act saved railroading, and in time, forced the ICC out.
The death of the RI yanked the chains of Congress into action. Railroads were "suddenly" no longer an evil monopoly.
Everything else was window dressing.
The late David P. Morgan asked "who shot the passenger train?".
We are continually asked why we don't have hi-speed passenger trains like those in Europe and Japan.
The ultimate answer is: the ICC.
Thee ICC imposed a 79 mph limit on passenger trains in 1947, which Amtrak holds to, to this day.
The ICC forced excessive rates on freight and passenger tariffs until the nightly news announced the last run of the 20th Century in 1967.
The ICC held that railroading was a monopoly to be severely dealt with until the Rock Island was killed.
Had not the Staggers Act not been passed, the railroads would today be a govenment bureauacracy, and all those "cans" zipping across the country on the rails would be going through the Panama Canal, because the government can't runn a railroad--witness Amtrak as proof.
'nough sed.
Only then did the truth become evident. It took another generation, but the assasin was finally found guilty, and hanged for its crimes against the free enterprise system.
And that, along with everything else mentioned above is what killed the Rock Island, and nearly private railroading as we've known it for 175 years.

[Anonymous]

Ride the Peoria Rocket in 1970.
(well it was called the "Peorian" then)

Lv. Peoria : 6:45 AM
Ar. Chillicothe : 7:03
Ar. Henry : 7:18
Ar. Bureau : 7:31
Ar. La Salle-Peru : 7:50
Ar. Ottawa : 8:06
Ar. Morris : 8:29
Ar. Joliet : 8:52
Ar. Blue Island : 9:17
Ar. Englewood : 9:30
Ar. Chicago : 9:45 AM

Sample fares:

Peoria - Chillicothe : $0.76
Peoria - Bureau : $1.84
Peoria - LaSalle-Peru : $2.43
Peoria - Joliet : $4.72
Peoria - Chicago : $6.21

-----------------------------------------------------
The return trip:

Lv. Chicago 6:15 PM
...
Ar. Peoria 9:25 PM

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Shayster

My last ride on the "Rocket" was from Memphis to Mason City, Iowa on my way home after I got out of the Navy in 1961. It was on it's way to Mpls. I remember it fondly.

Shayster-
Very few people on this forum got to ride the Rock Island.
I am sure several of of would like to read about the memories of your trip.



------------------------
Dale

[Tharmeni]

My memory of the Rock Island:

In 1968-69, I lived in Bala, Kansas, a very small isolated town about 25 miles west of Manhattan, KS. There were (I thought) some abandoned tracks running through the town. The right-of-way was very overgrown. One day, I heard a train! I ran out to see the pale blue GP-7 locomotive in "The Rock" livery, with about 20 grain hopper cars in tow, headed west towards Clay Center. It was the first -- and last -- train I ever saw on that line. I moved out of Bala in April, 1969, after six months there.

[pkielty]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken

Schmidt wound up at ATSF on its Middle Division and now is at BNSF in the Southern California area on the Construction side of the Engineering dept.

mudchicken: i see that you are a surveyor. Do you work for BNSF yourself? And is Tom a big shooter there?
After the "rock", i hung up that career and went into heavy construction as a tunnel surveyor/management trainee.

[SALfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by pkielty

I worked out of Booneville Arkansas and El Reno OK. El Reno was dead, man, but Booneville and eastern OK , I fell in love with (for a city kid).

You worked out of Booneville, AR? I'm impressed to find someone else who knows where Booneville is. Moved to AR in late 1982, a couple of years after RI quit. It always seemed so sad, driving alongside the RI line for miles and knowing there wouldn't be a train on it. Spent a good bit of time on the road between Booneville, Danville, Paris (on the KCS, I think) and Waldron (KCS branch) in Arkansas and Poteau and Heavener, OK (KCS main).

[mudchicken]

Last I saw of Tom Schmidt (T.B. Schmidt) , he was an Engineering Services Director at KC and was going to San Bernardino for a commuter rail construction project.

Surveyor YES, ATSF YES, BNSF NO (The Cascade Green crud had infected the organizational structure to the point that it wanted only drones, now they are looking for new blood to reverse the hemoraging. BNSF looking to hire 30 entry level engineers/surveyors in the next few years as field engineers. ATSF guys made lousy drones. Worked around Tom last at Stampede Pass as a consultant groundpounder.)

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Henry Crown was not a major stockholder in the Rock Island, he and his family were major bondholders (creditors), and worked to force a liquidation in order to get paid.

[Murphy Siding]

From what I've read, they purchased those bonds at a discount, of perhaps 25 cents on the dollar. They forced liquidation to get paid, and make a nice return on their investment.

[nanaimo73]

I just wonder what would have happened if the Rock had lasted a few more years. During 1979 they were hammering out the terms of the sale of the Golden State Route to Southern Pacific. The "Little Rock" lines south of Little Rock down to Eunice, Louisiana were almost bought by the Southern Pacific, and perhaps these would have been sold off or abandoned during 1980 or 1981. I would have sold the Omaha and Kansas City to Colorado lines to the D&RGW if they had wanted them. If the Choctaw line could have been sold to Santa Fe, a core from Chicago and the Twin Cities to Houston would have been left, and the smaller branches could have been abandoned after Staggers passed in 1980. BN was merging the Frisco, and UP was about to merge the MP, and perhaps a new Rock Island could have received some valuable conditions from these mergers.

[route_rock]

Bond stock whatever hes not allowed in Rock Island Illinois, just like his kid isnt going to be allowed in Galesburg Illinois. You can talk about your enrons but let history know the Crown family is the dirtiest ones around!
My memories of the Rock. First locomotive I ever got to sit in,first railroaders i ever talked to,Hometown line!
Best story I ever heard was on the Rocks shutdown a reporter from whbf tv did a week long story on the shutdown. (You can still get it from RITS I think) But one of the officals said in Geneseo Ill when you ran the Golden State through people would come out and wave as you could just tell by the noise that thats what train was coming.
Also the 113 mph run of a rocket across Iowa, a radio recording of the Golden State running 40 mph with a local radio reporter back in the 30's i want to say going ,from Rock Island through Moline.Some great pics and first person accounts plus the end frames are of Rock Island trains and Johnny Cash singing " The Rock Island Lines"
What a truly great road! Give me a 5000 series anyday!

[BruceGKoprucki]

It's great to get all this info about the Rock. I'm a Blue Island native; lived there from 1953-1980 except Iowa State University years. (Going back there to see Mom this weekend). Lots of Rock memories of visitng the yard on Vermont St viaduct, numerous commuter train trips to/from downtown. My last mainline trip on the Rock was Rock Island-Blue Island pre-Christmas 1971. I recall many of the vistas from the train during the trip, but I was also hustling two Augustana College coeds during the trip, too, so didn't pay total attention[:D] Recall southbound Golden State Rocket slamming through Blue Island summer 1965 at 70 mph. Amazing to find so many places Rock went (Watertown,SD??!!) Another reasons why no Rock? Internal combustion engine for farm equipment and trucks(but yes EMD), ag mechanization, meaning less labor, larger farms, fewer farmers, fewer farm families, fewer customers for rural towns, less rail traffic to smaller farm towns, paved rural roads (getting Iowa out of the mud), Interstate highways at public expense for truckers and general public. Combine that with the duplication of lines Chicago-Omaha, Chicago-Twin Cities, etc. which no longer collected on-line traffic (farms, towns, industries, etc) and suddenly it's a low-cost/high speed competition point to point. I agree: Chicago-Omaha Rock corridor will get upgraded sometime, although don't dismiss distant future high-speed corridor Chicago-Omaha on mostly rural alignment more likely ex-MILW to avoid disrupting existing lines/cities/grade crossings, etc. and serve Quad Cities, Cedar Rapids/Iowa City and Ames/Des Moines metro markets. We'll see, eh?

[jeffhergert]

QUOTE: Originally posted by RAMiller


As just stated, The Rock also suffered from a deteriorating physical plant towards the end. Lots of slow orders and the like. Management chose to rebuild cars and locomotives, things that people see. They just let the track on to pot. They had so many derailments, that a lot of the cars just laid on the side on the tracks for months.

Management didn't just choose to rebuild rolling stock. It was easier to get loans to repair rolling stock than track. If the Rock shut down, which it did, rolling stock could be repossesed and leased or sold to others to repay the loan. Loans for track repairs would be harder to reclaim .
Jeff

[Bob-Fryml]

The Rails West Museum, located just a few blocks south of the Union Pacific Railroad Museum in downtown Council Bluffs, Iowa, has, on public display, a goodly number of well preserved newspaper articles about "The Last Days of The Rock." They're well worth reading and the accompanying photographs generate feelings of melancholia for the passing of this once great railroad.

Unlike the U.P. museum, I don't think the Rails West Museum is open during the winter.

[BriansGrandy]

First time responder, long time reader

As a boy (late 40s, early 50s), I grew up in Duncan, Oklahoma, only 2 blocks from the Rock Island tracks. I used to ride my bike down to the tracks and watch the freights and occasional Rocket go past, waving at the engineers and conducters. Southbounds were always pulling tank cars to the refinery south of town (Rock Island may have even had a stake in the refinery), northbounds always pulling tank cars from the refinery. Always wondered why the Rock Island did not have locomotives like my Lionel Hudson but then discovered when I got back into my model railroading hobby that Rock Island was one of the first (if not the first) line to dieselize. that may say something positive about their ownership/management during that tme period. During WWII, we lived in Kansas City and rode one of the Rockets to Duncan a couple of times. In the early 50s, I rode a Rocket to Fort Worth a few times to visit family. Every one I rode, that I remember, was pulled by a gleaming (in my eye anyway), F-unit (or 2).

I believe railroads, and maybe the Rock Island in particular, were their own worst enemy. Pick any part, owners, management, employees, unions and you can find a villian in the piece. Prior posts to this topic offer testimony. I have read through some of the material on RITS. There were some individuals I believe really believed and really tried to keep the line going. A lot of railroads did not understand that the automobile and Interstate highway system were changing economic models forever.

I am not a fan either of these giant, monolith lines we have today and am ill-equipped to debate the relative merits of big versus little. I just think it stinks that model raiload equipment manufacturers have to pay a royalty to UP every time they use a UP trademark. Like UP needs the money..

[Anonymous]

Yes, The Rock Island was a mighty good road(like the song Said). They had bad management. Good management would of exploited their strenghts and
offset their weaknesses. For example, The Rock had the best route from
Kansas City to St. Paul. UP still uses the line. UP upgraded the Tucumcari
line. They never exploited whatever atvantages they had.