The Rock Island Railroad

[Anonymous]

Can anyone here give some insights into how and why the Rock Island went under? What happened? Does anyone have any memories of the RI?

[nanaimo73]

A key reason the Rock Island went under was the location of its track. It was one of 7 lines running from Chicago to Omaha, one of 5 from Chicago to the Twin Cities, one of 6 from Omaha or Kansas City to Colorado, one of 6 from Kansas City to Dallas-Fort Worth and one of 6 from Dallas-Fort worth to Houston.
There were to many lines and someone had to go, and it was not going to be the CB&Q. The bankruptcy of the Rock Island (and the Milwaukee Road) forced the government to bring in the Staggers act, which allowed railroads to get rid of unprofitable traffic and track, and allowed them freedom to set their own rates.
The Chicago and North Western filed with the ICC on July 5, 1963 to purchase to Road. On September 10, 1964 the Union Pacific filed a competing offer to get the Rock Island. And then on April 5, 1965 the Southern Pacific joined the UP offer and the ATSF joined the C&NW offer on December 13, 1965. This evolved into a giant mess, involving all of the western roads. The ICC finally decided on November 8, 1974 that the UP could have the CRI&P, but with a long list of conditions. During the 11 years of deliberations the Rock Island cut back on maintaining their road. The Union Pacific saw that the Rock Island was no longer valueable because of the shape it was in and walked away. The CRI&P declared bankruptcy on March 17, 1975.

[Anonymous]

a sizeable chunk of the RI remains in use today however...

a what if of sorts. if the rock island had a decent north south route, say GM&O for example would it have been in a better position. looking at a map of the old rock island routes it had to get where it was going the long way. it didn't seem like there was a logical way to get from memphis or texas or anywhere down that way to chicago. maybe it had no traffic like that but going from memphis back to KC and then meander into chicago. or would the rock island have been better suited to fit into another railroad...other than the obvious UP.

sorry about beating the dead horse, but i like to hear the smart people talk.

[MP173]

I wouldnt be surprized if some point in time the Omaha - Chicago line becomes more active, as UP continues to have issues with capacity. It would take some effort to put in sidings and upgrade it, but the infrastructure is there.

One of my favorite Trains articles was in the 1985 (I think) issue. It was the issue devoted to the State of Iowa. In it there was an article about working at Muscatine tower. Well written. The author (name escapes me) also wrote an article a couple of years ago (cover article) about Rock Island's Fast Train. He is a professor at Southern Illinois University.

Ever notice how many books/articles are written by college profs? Their writing style is usually very good. Obviously they have a lot of resources in order to write, plus the time and environment to do so.

Many college professors must also "publish" in order to be on the tenure track. Do you think Trains Magazine articles count?

ed

[ndbprr]

Plus it ended in the middle of nowhere. The Chicago Rock Island and Pacific never made it to the Pacific. It only made it to Tucumcari, new Mexico where it handed trains off to the SP if I am not mistaken. A case of a railroad late to the game through uninhabited areas when the die was cast in my opinion.

[ndbprr]

By the way, the demise was covered very well in trains magazine at the time it was broken up. Like every aspect of railroading there is bias in the thoughts of those both pro and con regarding the event.

[waltersrails]

All i know is my dad likes them and i like to take pics of whats left of the rolling stock.
http://ztrainman.tripod.com/

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ndbprr

Plus it ended in the middle of nowhere. The Chicago Rock Island and Pacific never made it to the Pacific. It only made it to Tucumcari, new Mexico

They made it to Colorado, too.

[doghouse]

Didn't the RI go as far south as El Paso, Texas?

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by doghouse

Didn't the RI go as far south as El Paso, Texas?

No, they built as far as Santa Rosa, New Mexico, where they met up with the El Paso and Southwestern. The Southern Pacific got the EP&SW and forced the CRI&P to lease the 59 miles from Santa Rosa to Tucumcari to SP.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cornmaze

QUOTE: Originally posted by ndbprr

Plus it ended in the middle of nowhere. The Chicago Rock Island and Pacific never made it to the Pacific. It only made it to Tucumcari, new Mexico

They made it to Colorado, too.

The Rock Island did indeed get to Colorado, but they went to Colorado Springs on their own track. They used trackage rights over UP to get to Denver.
In Texas, the Rock only made it to Dallas/Fort Worth. South of there to Houston, it was over a joint subsidiary, the Burlington-Rock Island.

[Murphy Siding]

Deja-vu! I was just thinking about the Rock Island this morning, in the context of wether she was a "mighty fine line". Was there a time when Rock Island was prosperous? Or, did it seem like RI was always trying to keep the wolf away from the door?

[rockisland4309]

There was a time when the Rock was actually prosperous. Right after WWII when the Rock got out of it's second bankruptcy until the early '60s.

[samfp1943]

On the East end the Rock first went into Memphis via a Ferry operation on the Mississippi River, in fact, the piers are still in use as a landing for a river support and grocery resupply operation for towboats. It lays on the East bank under the Memphis and Arkansaw Bridge, its track originally climbed the bluff to the coach yard (right at what was the terminal and station for the Memphis and Iron Mtn RR) and on to the freight house

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rockisland4309

There was a time when the Rock was actually prosperous. Right after WWII when the Rock got out of it's second bankruptcy until the early '60s.

I heard things were not really so bad in the 70's either.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rockisland4309

There was a time when the Rock was actually prosperous. Right after WWII when the Rock got out of it's second bankruptcy until the early '60s.

Then what happened?

[greyhounds]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by rockisland4309

There was a time when the Rock was actually prosperous. Right after WWII when the Rock got out of it's second bankruptcy until the early '60s.

Then what happened?

Well, mainly the Interestate Highway System. When that got built there was little money for 2nd place, and the Rock was at best the 2nd place railroad on almost every lane it served.

Before the Interstate System, our Federal Government fixed rail rates high enough so that the "weak railroad" on a route could make a buck. (It was the only way to ship at the time.) After the truckers got loose, it was good for the freight consumer and the economy, but absolute Hell on the "weak railroads" like the Rock Island.

Say good-by.

And I have very fond memories of the Peoria Rocket with either an RPO or TOFC mail, baggage-express, parlor car named "Peoria", diner lounge named "Creve Cour Club",
and the coaches in which I rode.

My last ride was around 1975. I went home from Chicago to visit my folks in central Illinois. I had a salad, steak, and wine in the dinning car for something like $7.00. When I got home I told my dad about it and he was upset that I spent $7.00 for dinner.

[Anonymous]

Rock Island freight train travel times from the 1974 Official Guide.

Read the following as:
"point of origin" - "destination": arrival time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chicago - Los Angeles (via SP), 2300 miles: 2nd evening arrival
Chicago - Tucumcari, 1100 miles: next evening arrival
Chicago - Omaha: next morning
Chicago - Denver: 2nd morning
Chicago - Kansas City: next afternoon
Chicago - Houston: 3rd morning
Denver - St. Louis: 2nd morning
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The book doesn't give me the exact times for the Chicago to LA run, but assume they left Chicago at noon and arrived LA the 2nd evening at 6pm. That's 54 hours, which translates to 43 mph average for the entire transcon run. Quite impressive.

The Union Pacific, by contrast, advertised in the same official guide that Chicago to Los Angeles piggy-back trailers on their "fast" trains are available to receivers the 3rd evening -- one day longer than Rock Island service.

With times like these, it seems to me the Rock Island was a very competitive hauler!

[Murphy Siding]

[rockisland4309]

The recession in '73 and '74 ( I believe) also led to the Rock's demise because they weren't able to recover. Not to mention poor management from the Ingram Administration. When the BRAC and UTU decided to strike in 1979 that just expedited the shutdown of the Rock.

[art11758]

The Rock also suffered from a deteriorating physical plant towards the end. Lots of slow orders and the like.

[bobwilcox]

During the Depression the Rock Island joined many other railroads in bankrupcy because the could not pay the interest on the money they had borrowed during the 1920s. When the dust setteled the Rock Islands stockholders had been wiped out and the people that had loaned money to the Rock Island became stockholders. Coming out of the bankrupcy these stockholders set a policy of very high divdends for themselves and nothing being plowed back into the railroad. Between 1955-1966 the Rock Island paid the highest dividends in the railroad industry. When the cow ran out of milk it was time to sell the Rock Island to the SP and UP. When that did not work management was told to keep the body from stinking.

[samfp1943]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rockisland4309

The recession in '73 and '74 ( I believe) also led to the Rock's demise because they weren't able to recover. Not to mention poor management from the Ingram Administration. When the BRAC and UTU decided to strike in 1979 that just expedited the shutdown of the Rock.

Don't forget the "Fuel Crisis" of 73-74, probably was a factor in pushing costs up.

[Anonymous]

The Rock Island passenger service ran some of the oldest rolling stock in regular service during the late seventies. They produced some, shall we say, less than desirable results. If I remember correctly an older issue of TRAINS had an article on the Rock Islands' passenger service. The writer stated that most of RI's passenger cars were difficult to assemble together with two generations of electrical, heating and AC.

[greyhounds]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding


Well, mainly the Interestate Highway System. When that got built there was little money for 2nd place, and the Rock was at best the 2nd place railroad on almost every lane it served.

Before the Interstate System, our Federal Government fixed rail rates high enough so that the "weak railroad" on a route could make a buck. (It was the only way to ship at the time.)



The flip side of this: If the road with the weak route could make a buck, was the road with the strong route rolling in the dough? I saw something written somewhere that said RI went everywhere Burlington went-only slower. While not exactly true, it does make a point.

I wouldn't say "rolling in dough", but they generally did OK. Strong railroads like the CB&Q made it through tough economic times without going broke. Weak railroads like the Rock Island didn't.

Economic regulation doesn't work. No board sitting in Washington, DC can possibly react fast enough and be familiar enough with local details and needs. It was a failure, pretty much recognized world wide as such, and done away with as much as is politically possible in the local jurisdiction.

[mudchicken]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CSSHEGEWISCH

QUOTE: Originally posted by cornmaze

QUOTE: Originally posted by ndbprr

Plus it ended in the middle of nowhere. The Chicago Rock Island and Pacific never made it to the Pacific. It only made it to Tucumcari, new Mexico

They made it to Colorado, too.

The Rock Island did indeed get to Colorado, but they went to Colorado Springs on their own track. They used trackage rights over UP to get to Denver.
In Texas, the Rock only made it to Dallas/Fort Worth. South of there to Houston, it was over a joint subsidiary, the Burlington-Rock Island.

What might have been:

Between 1912 and 1929, CRIP was looking heavilly at working on the "Pacific" part of the name. They had run a survey line west out of Liberal, KS that crossed ATSF (DC&CV) at Hugoton, KS and then near ATSF's station at Ramsey/Castaneda, OK (Boise City Sub, DC&CV circa 1936) to near Kim, CO and then on to Trinidad, up the Purgatoire River Valley and then somehow (La Veta Pass?) into the San Luis Valley and the south into NM. They had crossing agreements in place with ATSF at Hugoton and Trinidad before they abandoned the idea right before WWII.

[Anonymous]

On the MILW thread (now closed, sadly alas) someone asked if a merger of the MILW and the Rock had been discussed at one time. Is that so? Could there have been a Rocky Road?

[SALfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox

During the Depression the Rock Island joined many other railroads in bankrupcy because the could not pay the interest on the money they had borrowed during the 1920s. When the dust setteled the Rock Islands stockholders had been wiped out and the people that had loaned money to the Rock Island became stockholders. Coming out of the bankrupcy these stockholders set a policy of very high divdends for themselves and nothing being plowed back into the railroad. Between 1955-1966 the Rock Island paid the highest dividends in the railroad industry. When the cow ran out of milk it was time to sell the Rock Island to the SP and UP. When that did not work management was told to keep the body from stinking.

Also, between about 1916 and about 1932 the Rock was controlled by the Reid-Moore syndicate, which bled the railroad white to line their pockets. When bankruptcy was declared and new management brought in, they found an ill-maintained 1916 railroad trying to make a living in a 1932 world and contend with a major depression. There was an article in TRAINS sometime last year, I believe, which had a number of quotes from the trustee appointed after the bankruptcy.

[martin.knoepfel]

QUOTE: The Rock Island passenger service ran some of the oldest rolling stock in regular service during the late seventies. They produced some, shall we say, less than desirable results. If I remember correctly an older issue of TRAINS had an article on the Rock Islands' passenger service. The writer stated that most of RI's passenger cars were difficult to assemble together with two generations of electrical, heating and AC.

IIRC, the article covered the Chicago commuter operation of the RI. The author called himself the curator of the largest operation railroad museum. Some cars werde so old they hac celestory roofs. I don't know whether the RI got any subsidies for their commuter operation, and I don't believe, they made any money with it. Most commuter railroads and subways would run in the reds without funding from the taxpayer. It is in the very nature of commuter operations.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by C40-2

The Rock Island passenger service ran some of the oldest rolling stock in regular service during the late seventies. They produced some, shall we say, less than desirable results. If I remember correctly an older issue of TRAINS had an article on the Rock Islands' passenger service. The writer stated that most of RI's passenger cars were difficult to assemble together with two generations of electrical, heating and AC.

Ed King contributed an article to Trains in the mid 1980s about his adventures working in The Rock's commuter train department in the late '70s before the new cars and locomotives arrived from the RTA.