The Rock Island Railroad

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by route_rock
There are still 4 routes from Chicago to Omaha... you know what, all the lines left see a LOT of traffic.

In reply to route_rock's comments:

Last night I looked at a 1974 Rock Island dispatcher's sheet (posted at another group) for trains through Ottawa, Illinois, and I was shocked by how many trains were running. Fifteen westbounds, and sixteen eastbounds on that day. A total of 31 trains that day! (For those not familiar with the R.I., Ottawa is about 70 miles west of Chicago on the double-track main line.)

Anyway, it seems to me that things were really rolling on the Rock Island in its final years.

[jeffhergert]

Don't forget the money going to CNW. As one RI employee once told me, the CNW had better lobbyists in Washington.
I can't help but think that some in the government didn't want the RI to survive because of the money being loaned to the CNW. I'd read once where some of the first MILW reorganization plans kept the MILW going to Council Bluffs and abandoning the Kansas City line. This was changed and KC kept while abandoing the Co Bluffs line. I've often wondered if the MILW was quietly told, "Keep going to Co Bluffs and there won't be government money for any other projects on the MILW."
I don't know if any of you have followed what is happening to Maytag. Whirlpool is attempting to buy them after Maytag has been going downhill has a corporation the last few years. Some say this started in the 1990s when Maytag acquired some appliance companies not in it's traditional lines. That was when Maytag merged with the Chicago Pacific Corp, the reorganized CRI&P.
In addition to the appliance companies, they got the Crown family as major stockholders. Some say there is a parallel between the RI demise and Maytag's demise.
Jeff

[route_rock]

Ok three things. BRAC drove us into the ground forcing directed service, Henry Crown the major stockholder that screamed for liquidation from the early 70's on ( his colors were red and yellow thats why the paint was changed then) And finally Carter not sending any money that was asked for by the railroad.
If you look up the pluses at shutdown the Rock should be running today. Drop that Strike( which would have happened sooner had the blank blan blank clerks sat down and said we are a broke road maybe we shouldnt strike) and I am sure they would have lasted into staggers and beyond! Mini trains were a plus, Oklahoma coal, A better route across Chicago and Iowa ( face it it is the best across Iowa)not to mention the fact money in was topping money out! However Carter admin people said nope needs to be liquidated because of too many routes in that corridor.
Funny there are still 4 routes from Chicago to Omaha still. Who wants to talk about redundant lines now?Iowa Interstate is doing well for itself because of ONLINE traffic as well as stuff handed off ot it from other lines, The line from QC to Muscatine still sees a lot of traffic, you know what all the lines left see a LOT of traffic (except for branches but even they are doing well.)
Oh well dead horse and all, Get rid of Henry Crown, the ICC being inept and the worst administration in history ( love the fact they tossed money to conrail but the Rock? Its only flyover country we dont need to keep them happy)If the Rock would have been allowed to exist I see it today as a KCS size midwest system. and if its ideas were implemented I dont see any mergers agan and a bigger share of short haul traffic with higher employment starting in the mid 80's for ALL railroads. Instead we get the mentality if it isnt coast to coast dont accept it.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by samfp1943

Was it not about the same time frame of the repainting of the Rock's equipment that a similar shade of blue and white was appearing on Great Northern equipment?
Was it possible that in all of the Rock's figuring that maybe the GN had a place, kinda sorta like the Kodacrome period of the SP?

Perhaps RI would have been better off to re-paint their equipment Armour Yellow, and Mist Gray?[}:)]

[Anonymous]

In the January, 2001, Trains, Ed King mentions he managed the Rock Island commuter service from 1977 to the railroad shutdown in 1980. He says it was a money-losing operation, with fares covering only 45% of the cost. Also, related to comments here about equipment, he writes, "the Rock didn't spend a nickel on the commuter service it didn't have to spend (it didn't have much to spend on anything), so equipment and track maintenance was cut to the bare bones."

[Anonymous]

It is really a testament to the people of the Rock Island, and to a certain extent the Milwakee Road that despite such handicaps as avaricious owners who bled the company dry and incompetant management that they lasted as long as they did. Although they were not succesful, you have to respect their pluck and their drive. I think that is the reason those fallen flags hold such an allure 25 years or more after their demise.

[samfp1943]

Was it not about the same time frame of the repainting of the Rock's equipment that a similar shade of blue and white was appearing on Great Northern equipment?
Was it possible that in all of the Rock's figuring that maybe the GN had a place, kinda sorta like the Kodacrome period of the SP?

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jeffhergert

There was at least one GP-7m that was painted with an off-white or cream color. They sent it back thru the paint shop.
I'd have to look thru some books, but I think some of the early CRP GP7s done by MK were painted in the bright red/yellow scheme just before the "The Rock" scheme was announced and were repainted into blue and white.
Jeff

Yes, the whole first batch (14 - 15?) units were in the Bright Red Yellow w/billboard lettering scheme. I don't know if some or any were repainted. In numbers they were overwhelmed by later batches.

[jeffhergert]

QUOTE: Originally posted by beaulieu

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

beaulieu: I see what you mean about attitude & moral as regards to railroad paint schemes. Combined with good leadership,sound financial backing, and a plan for the future,it could be a major part of a turnaround. At the time it occurred, it would appear, to me at least, that they were re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic. New management had to know, going in, that the ship was sinking. The meeting where it was decided to adopt the new ROCK/blue paint must looked like the basis for a Dilbert cartoon.[;)]

One other thing to remember about locomotives and cars painted Blue at CRIP. Almost none were repainted just to repaint them. The GP38-2s were new locomotives coming from EMD, the rebuilt GP7 and GP9 locomotives were coming from various rebuilders. The freight cars were all coming into the company. Even the 7 GP40s that received Blue and White paint had been stored out of service with major ailments and weren't repainted until Federal money was received to help repair the Rock.

There was at least one GP-7m that was painted with an off-white or cream color. They sent it back thru the paint shop.
I'd have to look thru some books, but I think some of the early CRP GP7s done by MK were painted in the bright red/yellow scheme just before the "The Rock" scheme was announced and were repainted into blue and white.
Jeff

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

beaulieu: I see what you mean about attitude & moral as regards to railroad paint schemes. Combined with good leadership,sound financial backing, and a plan for the future,it could be a major part of a turnaround. At the time it occurred, it would appear, to me at least, that they were re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic. New management had to know, going in, that the ship was sinking. The meeting where it was decided to adopt the new ROCK/blue paint must looked like the basis for a Dilbert cartoon.[;)]

One other thing to remember about locomotives and cars painted Blue at CRIP. Almost none were repainted just to repaint them. The GP38-2s were new locomotives coming from EMD, the rebuilt GP7 and GP9 locomotives were coming from various rebuilders. The freight cars were all coming into the company. Even the 7 GP40s that received Blue and White paint had been stored out of service with major ailments and weren't repainted until Federal money was received to help repair the Rock.

[Murphy Siding]

beaulieu: I see what you mean about attitude & moral as regards to railroad paint schemes. Combined with good leadership,sound financial backing, and a plan for the future,it could be a major part of a turnaround. At the time it occurred, it would appear, to me at least, that they were re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic. New management had to know, going in, that the ship was sinking. The meeting where it was decided to adopt the new ROCK/blue paint must looked like the basis for a Dilbert cartoon.[;)]

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

I've read more than one place, that RI was "trying to paint their way to solvency".

It seems that, at some point in their early history, RI lost where it was going. I live in eastern S.D. RI built 2 lines into S.D. from the east, that virtually came in and *stopped*. One line was around Watertown. The other is still visable under our parking lot at work in Sioux Falls. Looking at a RI map, you wonder if there was ever a grand scheme, as far as lines going nowhere in particular?

Murphy, one thing to remember about the paint, it is part of the attitude change necessary to turn the railroad around, in and of itself i won't make things better but it is a symbol which can be used to motivate and inspire, The Rock Island needed changes desperately. Take these examples, Conrail formed from bankrupt Penn Central after formation chooses Bright Blue color scheme, Soo Line formed from Mariginal MStP&SSM, WC, and DSS&A, chooses new White w/Red nose paint. Kansas City Southern slowly sinking under Deramus chooses new CEO Tom Carter, paint scheme changes from solid dark Red to White. M-K-T John Barriger replaces Deramus and changes paint from dark Red to Bright Red and begins turnaround. Rock Island John Barriger replaces the dark maroon and yellow with bright Red and Yellow w/billboard lettering, situation too tough at Rock Island and JB just didn't have enough to give anymore.

Regarding lines built to nowhere, you have to look at the situation in the late 1800's when these lines were built, competition between the various roads was cutthroat and not all the leaders were making well thought out choices. It wouldn't surprise me if the Q had surveys into the Yankton area. The O'Neill branch would make more sense if it had feeder branches.

[jeffhergert]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Cris Helt

QUOTE: Originally posted by rockisland4309

When John Ingram became the Rock's last president he decided the railroad needed to have a "revamped image" and came up with changing the Rock Island to just "The Rock". And supposedly the blue image was supposed be a more optimistic color than previous paint schemes in the maroon and yellow or red and yellow. I have the Rock Island's 1974 Annual Report to the stockholders and on the back page there's a picture of the first 40 ft. boxcar painted in the new "Rock" blue paint job and small paragraph explaining why the railroad is changing it's name and paint.

Matter of fact, I have the Nov/Dec. 1974 issue of the RI's company magazine "The Rocket" and has coverage of Ingram touring the whole system and he doesn't hesistate in saying how desparate the railroad is to staying alive and needing to applying for loans to the FRA.

I always thought that RI's bright red with yellow nose and white speed lettering scheme was better than any of the maroon combinations or the latter blue and white.

Reading some of Jervis Langdon's comments to the stockholders in RI's annual reports in the '60s, left me with the impression that he didn't see much of a future for an independant RI, and that merger with a stronger railroad was best.

The Blue and White was also supposed to be cheaper.

Of course Jervis Langdon didn't see a future for the RI. He wasn't brought on board to save the RI, but to merge or sell it off.

The same company that has the book of employee magazines/annual reports from the 60s also has reprinted the Iron Road to Empire book.
Jeff

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken

Naimo & Murphy: If you look in the GLO index in the National Archives II and CRIP's 1918 Valuation papers, you might find that they did indeed. Tucked in with the GLO Filing Map for the BCR&N we found a portion of a CRIP Val Map ozalid (Marked "VOID" in grease pencil by an ICC Examiner in the Appraisal Section) - It was for Section Section 35, T 94 N, R56W; 5thPM In Yankton County crossing CB&Q. I often wonder what the University Libraries in Norman and Iowa City might have buried in those piles of correspondence paper.[%-)][%-)][%-)]

Might explain why they had a Dakota Division about that time. (Also what makes hours of map research interesting as well [:D])

[banghead][banghead][banghead][:D]

Mud Chicken: That is very interesting, indeed. I wonder where this line was to come from? Something stands out as odd though. CB&Q didn't go anywhere near there.(?) CB&Q went through the extreme southwestern corner of the state. I'm looking at a DeLorme map book of S.D., that's all in degrees of long. and lat., so I'll have to go looking for a section/range map. The GN did go through Yankton county though-Irene to Volin to dead end at Yankton. That line is long gone.
Dale gave me a ration of static over the several ways I spelled Nanaimo.[;)]
Thanks for the info.

[mudchicken]

Naimo & Murphy: If you look in the GLO index in the National Archives II and CRIP's 1918 Valuation papers, you might find that they did indeed. Tucked in with the GLO Filing Map for the BCR&N we found a portion of a CRIP Val Map ozalid (Marked "VOID" in grease pencil by an ICC Examiner in the Appraisal Section) - It was for Section Section 35, T 94 N, R56W; 5thPM In Yankton County crossing CB&Q. I often wonder what the University Libraries in Norman and Iowa City might have buried in those piles of correspondence paper.[%-)][%-)][%-)]

Might explain why they had a Dakota Division about that time. (Also what makes hours of map research interesting as well [:D])

[banghead][banghead][banghead][:D]

[rockisland4309]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Cris Helt
I always thought that RI's bright red with yellow nose and white speed lettering scheme was better than any of the maroon combinations or the latter blue and white.

Reading some of Jervis Langdon's comments to the stockholders in RI's annual reports in the '60s, left me with the impression that he didn't see much of a future for an independant RI, and that merger with a stronger railroad was best.

Chris,
That's why RI was really hoping that UP would come their rescue and merge with them back in the mid 1960's. The Rock depended heavily on UP's interchange traffic in Council Bluffs and also with SP interchange traffic at Tucumcari. Unfortuately, SP was starting their slow decline in 70's and when the Rock went on strike there was very little interchange traffic with SP. Something like less then 70,000 cars per year.

[Anonymous]

One of the Major Conditions were anything south of Kansas City went to SP. I read somewhere....

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding


It seems that, at some point in their early history, RI lost where it was going. I live in eastern S.D. RI built 2 lines into S.D. from the east, that virtually came in and *stopped*. One line was around Watertown. The other is still visable under our parking lot at work in Sioux Falls. Looking at a RI map, you wonder if there was ever a grand scheme, as far as lines going nowhere in particular?

If you are still allowed to request inter-library loans (100 per year ?), see if you can get-
Iron Road to Empire
by Willian Edward Hayes
published 1953, Simmons-Boardman Publishing Corp.

It's a new year.[:D]. I'll have to go see my friend at the library.Thanks

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding


It seems that, at some point in their early history, RI lost where it was going. I live in eastern S.D. RI built 2 lines into S.D. from the east, that virtually came in and *stopped*. One line was around Watertown. The other is still visable under our parking lot at work in Sioux Falls. Looking at a RI map, you wonder if there was ever a grand scheme, as far as lines going nowhere in particular?

If you are still allowed to request inter-library loans (100 per year ?), see if you can get-
Iron Road to Empire
by Willian Edward Hayes
published 1953, Simmons-Boardman Publishing Corp.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rockisland4309

When John Ingram became the Rock's last president he decided the railroad needed to have a "revamped image" and came up with changing the Rock Island to just "The Rock". And supposedly the blue image was supposed be a more optimistic color than previous paint schemes in the maroon and yellow or red and yellow. I have the Rock Island's 1974 Annual Report to the stockholders and on the back page there's a picture of the first 40 ft. boxcar painted in the new "Rock" blue paint job and small paragraph explaining why the railroad is changing it's name and paint.

Matter of fact, I have the Nov/Dec. 1974 issue of the RI's company magazine "The Rocket" and has coverage of Ingram touring the whole system and he doesn't hesistate in saying how desparate the railroad is to staying alive and needing to applying for loans to the FRA.

I always thought that RI's bright red with yellow nose and white speed lettering scheme was better than any of the maroon combinations or the latter blue and white.

Reading some of Jervis Langdon's comments to the stockholders in RI's annual reports in the '60s, left me with the impression that he didn't see much of a future for an independant RI, and that merger with a stronger railroad was best.

[Murphy Siding]

I've read more than one place, that RI was "trying to paint their way to solvency".

It seems that, at some point in their early history, RI lost where it was going. I live in eastern S.D. RI built 2 lines into S.D. from the east, that virtually came in and *stopped*. One line was around Watertown. The other is still visable under our parking lot at work in Sioux Falls. Looking at a RI map, you wonder if there was ever a grand scheme, as far as lines going nowhere in particular?

[rockisland4309]

When John Ingram became the Rock's last president he decided the railroad needed to have a "revamped image" and came up with changing the Rock Island to just "The Rock". And supposedly the blue image was supposed be a more optimistic color than previous paint schemes in the maroon and yellow or red and yellow. I have the Rock Island's 1974 Annual Report to the stockholders and on the back page there's a picture of the first 40 ft. boxcar painted in the new "Rock" blue paint job and small paragraph explaining why the railroad is changing it's name and paint.

Matter of fact, I have the Nov/Dec. 1974 issue of the RI's company magazine "The Rocket" and has coverage of Ingram touring the whole system and he doesn't hesistate in saying how desparate the railroad is to staying alive and needing to applying for loans to the FRA.

[emdgp92]

QUOTE: Originally posted by noozer

I was always amused at how ironic it was that the CRI&P renamed itself "The Rock" just as it broke apart and went belly up like a big, sickly-blue whale. I still see ex-Rock Island coal hoppers running in Ohio on the NS. They've been partly re-painted, but you can still see that gawdawful light blue paint and that big logo of "The Rock" on the sides of most of them.

Ah yes.. the "Bankruptcy Blue" scheme. I always wondered why the Bessemer & Lake Erie hoppers were blue. That is, until I saw one on the NS' MGA line and could see the big R through the paint.

What was the deal with the RI changing paint schemes every few years? They had the blue/white, red/yellow, maroon/yellow, solid maroon/white, etc. sometimes in the same train.

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cornmaze

QUOTE: Originally posted by pchas

someone asked if a merger of the MILW and the Rock had been discussed at one time. Is that so?

In late 1959, the announcement was made of a proposed RI and Milwaukee merger. I have a brochure that was issued to employees on this. It states that total mileage of the merged system would be 18,174 miles, making it the country's largest railroad.

I bet this would have been a western Penn Central. Two railroads with large problems getting together and making a large railroad with huge problems.
The CMSP&P and the C&NW should have merged and the CRI&P should have been split between SP and UP, with the MP and the ATSF getting together as well.
The Rock Island owned a lot of St. Louis-San Francisco stock until the 1933 bankruptcy. The SLSF would have been a great addition to the CRI&P.

[Anonymous]

I found the article I eluded to earlier in the thread. In the June 1986 issue of TRAINS, the article titled," Disaster du jour, and other stories", by E.W. King Jr. If you can get your hands on a copy it's an informative, good read.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by pchas

someone asked if a merger of the MILW and the Rock had been discussed at one time. Is that so?

In late 1959, the announcement was made of a proposed RI and Milwaukee merger. I have a brochure that was issued to employees on this. It states that total mileage of the merged system would be 18,174 miles, making it the country's largest railroad.

[Anonymous]

Here's the link to the publishing company that handles the printing of the books.

rybooks.com

Cris

[Anonymous]

I was always amused at how ironic it was that the CRI&P renamed itself "The Rock" just as it broke apart and went belly up like a big, sickly-blue whale. I still see ex-Rock Island coal hoppers running in Ohio on the NS. They've been partly re-painted, but you can still see that gawdawful light blue paint and that big logo of "The Rock" on the sides of most of them.

One thing the Rock also left behind was some great station archtiecture. The stations in Council Bluffs, Washington and Atlantic, Iowa were beautiful examples of Midwestern depot design.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Cris Helt

An interesting couple of books to read are the collected issues of Rock Island's employee magazine The Rocket, from 1960-1969 in a two volume set that also includes the anual reports to the stockholders for the years mentioned.

If anyone has info on how to buy this book, I would much appreciate it.
Thank you, Cris, for that suggestion.

[Anonymous]

An interesting couple of books to read are the collected issues of Rock Island's employee magazine The Rocket, from 1960-1969 in a two volume set that also includes the anual reports to the stockholders for the years mentioned.

You get to read about the improvements the Rock made to its physical plant, plus new locomotive and car acquisitions, and new customers locating their businesses along RI track. It's easy to get the impression that things were looking up for the Rock, until you read the anual reports and find that the Rock was operating at a break even rate through the early 1960s, until 1965 when things started going downhill financially for RI. Costs went up, and profits went down.