Sight Distance and preventable deaths at grade cro

[csxengineer98]

oh yea..one more thing...
if you want things fixed so bad..why dont you get the laws changed that so when a lawer dose win a lawsuite..that the money that he rapes off of the family for his fees..is put to fix the crossing in question....

[csxengineer98]

if your so anti-rail road...why do you come to a rail road friendly sight... to spread your horse crap around and hope that someone feels the same way as you...is this your own personal way of getting your rocks off... my bet is..your a middle aged suberbonite that is inconvisised by a rail road that is to close to your house and you dont like it...or their is a line that is on your way to work or someplace that you go to on a reguler basics... and your incovenonced 3 mins or so by a train going by... well...if any one of thiese is true....this is what i got to say....MOVE...AND FIND A DIFFERNT WAY TO WHERE EVER YOUR GOING THAT DOSNT CROSS TRAIN TRACKS and then you might be happy

[wabash1]

The reason it was brought up was due to the fact thatyou and your other whiny people on here think it is our fault that these things happen. I told you i wasnt going to get into the gore. Most people dont get to hear this up close and personal. well now you did. then you think i need a doctor. suprise i dont need a doctor just for whiney lawyers to quit blaming people who aint at fault

[csxns]

Mr Mike are you the one sueing OREO.

[cabforward]

mr wabash,

i am not a dr. or therapist, but it's easy to see that you are screaming for help in your letter.. i hope you can see a dr. about treatment soon, because you are setting yourself up for another tragedy, maybe a career-breaker.. if you have already seen a dr. about emotional trauma, see another one, because you aren't near healed yet.. you are hurting, and it shows..

if i'm sticking my nose where it doesn't belong, sorry, you brought it up..

[cabforward]

mr ed,

it is irrelevant who was here first (but it was still the indians, and the r.rs. built on the land stolen from them!).. maybe we should argue that point until armageddon..

the r.rs. don't want crossings and the towns were built around them, big deal!
what's the point? does the universe spin around r.rs.?
we are all here now, and we must co-exist now because nobody's moving anywhere to make life comfortable for someone else..

the only way that is going to happen is to compromise ..that means you leave the room with less than what you entered with.. the r.rs. give up something, and whomever is on the other side of the argument also gives up something.. it may be $$, or land, or easements, access or whatever..

i'm not suit-happy and i'm not on the side of nutty litigants who are trying to soften the rest of their lives on someone else's money clip.. but there are situations which are dangerous, thru no fault of the r.rs. or anyone else's, it's just the way industry and other aspects of society have evolved over years..

as to writing govt. to make changes in crossing safety, yes, whatever works.. but that is not the only way.. r.rs. could help by dropping the defensive attitude of 'us vs. them'.. problems don't evaporate by ignoring them; that r.rs. haven't learned this by now amazes me.. problems don't run & hide because r.rs. use teams of lawyers and complicated legal tactics..

publicity is too easily focused on 'david & goliath' issues where david is viewed as the victim and goliath is, guess-who? anything worth repeating is on the news and the internet in 24 hours.. that means around the world.. does the name erin brockovich ring a bell?

regardless of what you think of her or her fight with pac gas & elec., she found a lot of sympathy and help from those who saw her side as 'david'.. r.rs. need to get a clue and understand that right & wrong, fair & unfair have no meaning in contests like this.. what counts is the two sides that are in this fight, what they want and, most of important, what they will accept..

what r.rs. need to do is swallow their pride, take a deep breath and decide to give up something to make the other side go away.. this will save 3 things: $$, time and most important, image, which the r.rs. have little to spare..

to do these things, r.rs. must ask the govt. to change the laws or the regulations to allow more flexibility in establishing crossing criteria and other issues that have emotional impact.. this means local, state and federal..

you made a comment about towns growing up around r.rs.. well isn't that lucky for the r.rs.!! where would the r.rs. be without towns to provide passengers and freight to haul? of course, the towns needed the r.rs., but the r.rs. needed the towns, too.. is it fair to say they needed each other?

is it fair to say they still need each other? the equation hasn't changed since the spike was driven at promontory point.. and that is the key to this whole scenario.. r.rs. need people to provide a need for carriers to serve a location; people need r.rs. to provide the means to get from here to there..

it means we need each other; it means respecting each other's needs to continue living and working in this culture.. did you ever see a r.r. built and running with noone around to use it? did you ever see a map with lines that showed abandoned r.rs.? that means they were closed because noone was there anymore and the r..r. went out-of-business..

people need r.rs. and r.rs. need people.. when people want a crossing with gates and blind spots taken out, does it profit the r.r. to argue no gate, no lights?
those people aren't moving away, neither is the r.r..

it is irrelevant who pays for the study or who has to ask for the crossing.. the point is, a question exists for the need of a crossing with mechanical protection..
everybody should sit down and mediate a plan to build a crossing.. this will save court costs, headaches, public images and maybe accidents..

laws exist beause people disagree on where the responsibility lies to do something or not to do something.. r.rs. could ease the process considerably by agreeing (compromising) to deal more honestly and sincerely with those who have issues with the r.rs'. r-o-w..

when people on opposing sides of an argument can look each other in the eye and deal fairly and drop the mountains of legalistic b-s, there will be a lot more mutul respect and trust and fewer [near-]accidents to lose sleep over.. that will benefit victim's families and crewmen..

[wabash1]

Ed this isnt going to be a baited deal im going to tell it like it is. how it is for what it is. they say we sit and whine about close calls and not do anything about it. well HERE IS THE TRUTH

with out getting into the gore ill say it like this. I hit and killed a tresspasser. did anyone come to my aid. did this person think about the innocent crew members that was effected, did i get time off with pay. NO the just of the matter is the people i work with who been thru this helped me. it wasnt the first time just the first time i killed some one. so for your whining at railroads about sight distance yes its personal when we do all but stop at crossings and tell and have people arrested for tresspassing and you still kill them then people like you come on here and say we must do more. its personal yes and all the crew wants to do is go on with life put it behind us. then people like you come here and call me a murderer. you may not have said it in those words but that is how i take it. and most everyone who has been involved in this type accedent. or maybe we should say (for the lawyers that you so promote) on perposes. I myself have scars that run deep. So have your hay day on this subject. i said my peace and am now off my soap box.

[edblysard]

Mr Cabforward,
A few quick facts, then I will leave this one alone.
First, the towns and cities, for the most part, followed the railroads, and built up around them, so yes, the tracks were there first.
Second, the railroads have no say in what type of crossing protection is installed, that decision is the providence of the local, state or county DOT, they decide what goes in, crossbucks, arms, bells and lights, ect.
The railroad pays 75% of the cost of materials, 100% on installation, taxpayers the other 25% on materials. Railroads pay 100% cost of maintainance. Your DOT designs, engineers and approves the specs on the crossing, not the railroad.
Third, most states have provisions in their laws that forbid you from sueing them, based on design errors in such construction. Which of course, leaves only the railroad to sue, even though the carrier had no choice as to the crossing being there, or what type of protection was provided.
Fourth. For almost every single crossing you see, your DOT had to sue the railroad to gain access to the right of way to install an at grade crossing, we dont want anything on our tracks except trains. There are alternatives to at grade crossings, such as under passes, over passes, or re routing street projects. Go to the older part of your city or town, and I bet you find, for the most part, the streets dont cross the tracks at grade, but use underpasses instead. The best and safest crossing is the one that isnt there.
Lastly, its not the railroads crossing, it belongs completly to you, the taxpayer.
If you deem it dangerous, contact your local or state representive, and gripe, gripe and gripe some more, after all, its yours. Complain to the people who designed it, we didnt want it, and didnt design it. If the grass is too high, or there is junk piled up so you cant see, go after the landowner, it isnt allways the railroad's property, yet everyone expects us to clean up the mess, or cut down the trees, or mow someone elses grass. Can you imagine how fast the landowner would sue the railroad if we went in there and excavated the rock outcroping mentioned? How fast would you sue someone if they just showed up and dug up your front yard, because they thought it blocked the view of the street?
By the way, crossing arms, bells and lights are not railroad safety devices, they are traffic devices, under the law, and your are cited for driving around them the same as if you ran a stop sign or red light. Which is exactly what they are considered, a stop sign. And down here in Texas, if a railroad runs beside a section of private property, and there is no other access to this property, except by crossing the tracks, then the land owner may, at his sole expense and liability, install an at grade crossing, but the law expressely relieves the railroad of any liability for any accident that happens at that crossing, it is truely a private crossing, to be used at your own risk.
Cabforward, what I have stated here is facts, for your benifit, not to pick an argument. You struck me as a guy with a few years under your belt, and good dose of common sense. Based upon these facts, not the somewhat skewed and exagerated statements of a personal injury lawyer, which, in your years of law enforcement, I am sure you heard quite often, I leave it up to you to decide. You already know our judical system isnt about justice, but about assigning blame. Sadley, the DOTs who are really at fault are exempt from the recourse of the average citizen.
And I would bet wabash, Ken, ironken, and quite a few others already do speak out at schools, and just about anywhere they can. You only have to be involved in a grade crossing accident once, and you will do just about anything in your power to see that it never happens again. Operation Lifesaver is a volunteer program, funded by, and staffed by railroads and railroaders. They do donate their time. And the day or two they donate is usually their days off, often the only ones they get in a month.

Mike, dont even bother, SSDD.
Ed

[cabforward]

mr iron,

you ask, what was there first, the road or the tracks? answer: the indians!! should we give it back to them? that is a really sad view of the situation.. we are all living in this country together.. this is the united states, right? we disagree on what we believe, but when it comes to public safety, 'us vs. them' doesn't work.. that has long been the view that people have of r.r. mgmt.. don't let this also be the way crewmen look at people who get in the way of trains..

do you want to reduce collisions between vehicles and trains? do you want children & adults to stay off the tracks? how would you do this? would you accept 2-3 days a year (with pay) to visit schools and meetings of residents who live near the tracks you ride? would you talk about tragedies and close calls involving yourself and crewmen you know?

if you have experiences with cars and track-walkers, you should stand in front of a group and tell them how an accident was avoided, or the tragic way it turned out..

you know what happens when train meets person or vehicle, you should give the talk about what it was like.. you should offer some thing the person was wearing or what the child was carrying when they were hit.. this would have the greatest impact..

you and many others talk about whiners and cry-babies.. you and they are just as bad.. you sit there and gripe about the mean things people say about the big, bad r.r. and take it all so personal.. you cry in your beer, well, that's too bad!!

if you think it's so terrible about the way people behave at crossings, or if you think it's so terrible about how crossings are designed by the r.r. or the highway dept., why don't you get together some crewmen who have been involved in accidents and near-accidents and promote better safety by vehicles and track-walkers?

if you know so much about what's really going on with accidents on r.r. tracks why don't you get permission from your r.r. to speak publicly at schools or town meetings?

you're not going to educate anyone in this forum, we already know the danger.. why don't you bring the message to the public where it counts?

or would you rather just pour yourself another beer?

you're part of the solution, or you're part of the problem..

[edblysard]

Hey Wabash,
Dont let him bait you into this again.
Stay Frosty, j...
Ed

[Anonymous]

Double amen!

Aren't school busses required to stop at all RR crossings? Isn't the driver supposed to open the door and look and listen in both directions? Failure to do so should result in the driver's dismissal. But, yet again it's blame the railroad. Personal responsibility has gone the way of the Dodo bird. Wish I could say more but I've got a fast food restaurant to sue!!!

[cabforward]

mr j,

i don't think anyone is criticizing crewmen for accidents.. if they are, they shouldn't.. this is about r.r. mgmt. and the reluctance to admit responsibility and therefore liability in a train-vehicle collision.. r.rs. don't want to spend money clearing crossings of blind spots because r.rs. don't want to spend money, period..

there has been a lot written about the trauma of crewmen who are on a train where someone is injured/killed as a pedestrian or in a vehicle.. their emotional scars are as great as anyone's who has physical scars..

i doubt anyone is after a engineer's job for the way the engine was driven, or after a conductor's job for jumping from the engine to swoop a child from harm's way..

this is about r.r. mgmt. turning its eyes from the danger and covering its ears.. crewmen get a few days sick leave, a consult with a shrink and go back to work.. v-presidents play a round of golf, while the p.r. office writes a press release with enough spin to fly a rocket to he moon..

[Anonymous]

CSX enjuneer and Wabash. All that I can say is double amen bros!
Mike, weren't you the one lickin' your nuts awhile back on this one?
Simple answer: What was there first? The road or the tracks? My money is that the tracks were there first. That would make the road builder the one responsible for the upgrades. You don't want to hear this though. What you want to hear is somebody say "sue, sue, sue the RR." I went to angelsontrack.org awhile back. The picture that comes up first says it all. It is a picture of two kids standing in the right of way (between the rails), and an angel holding out a hand for them. That is exactly what your cause believes in. "I don't have the common sense to protect myself, so lets make it somebody elses responsibility."
Tim A. I am dissapointed in your respone to this guys rhetoric.
One more thing to CSX engineer's post. I'm with you! Mike, I hope that you or someone like you don't cross my path spouting your crap. Most likely, we would have some words. After we get done scrapin' knuckles! Instead of writing letters to RRs and govt. officials, how about you roll those letters up and shove them up your a*s. You will be able to read them then. That is where your head is too!
Ken

[csxengineer98]

as a fellow rail roader...all i got to say is, AMEN! someone other then myself sees the "lets blame eveyone else but my self" thinking. even if this crossing had the weeds or grass or trees or what ever your talking about cleared...you think it would stop anymore people from running it... i dont think so...i think the opposit would happen... people will see a train and misjudge the speed and get smashed... people need to start talking responsibily for their own actions insted of tring to blame someone else for them... and besides... if you want to be stupid and run a crossing... ill put your name in for a darwin award... oh yea and the person that started this posting... man i wish i could meet you in person...... you and i would rumble..i so sick of you cry baby wining people!!! my 2 year old has more sence the you do.... the rail road industry is a stressfull enought job with the terror warnings... TMs RMEs trying to find things to fire you over....we dont need people like you looking to take my lively hood away becouse your to lazy to stop look listin and live...
csx engineer
ps sorry for any spelling errors..its late...

[wabash1]

here we go again with your whining about railroads and the crossing. first off i would hold the bus company responsible if anything happened, for having stupid drivers who would be trains 2nd for not routing its driver around the crossing . it is always some one elses fault with you guys. and that you think we should do everything possible to keep you safe from yourself. while we slow down for crossing that people beat us at now we have a new problem called people mad couse they haft to sit thru this now so next time they take a chance and go around the gate, and we end up killing someone becouse somebody misjudge our speed and we killed them. its always the railroad fault couse they have money. its the crew fault couse they was running. maaybe we should just shut the railroads down and go on welfare and let you pay my bills.

[RudyRockvilleMD]

The issue seems to be the safety of school buses that have to use the grade crossings in your district. In Montgomery County Maryland school buses are forbidden to use grade crossings since there is only one railroad line (CSX), and there are plenty of roads that cross the tracks on bridges or the other way around.

[Anonymous]

Mike,
Hire the Lawyer from the Web sight you pointed out to us a while back. Then file a law suit against the State. Then go after the Railroad Company.
Let us know how you make out.

TIM A

[Anonymous]

As was noted in the last disscussion; Contact the proper government officials, then keep taking it to the next step higher. Remember the saying Its not what you (and what everyone else) know, but WHO you know! Make those contacts as polite and as frequent as possible. Its the squeaky door that gits fixed first.....well usualy!
Icemanmike2-Milwaukee

[JoeKoh]

Mike
I would get a hold of my person in congress in a heartbeat.Take your videocamera and show them the problem.There are some places where a cornfield hides automobiles near my home.A lot of markers are there for lost loved ones.I took a family home because their car broke down near that intersection.A train takes over a mile and a half to stop and thats not at full speed either.keep fighting the good fight.
good luck
Joe

[Anonymous]

Just a follow up to a previous discussion that generated some wonderful feedback. I am concerned for the lack of proactive action on the railroads to willingly cut back vegetation to ensure a proper sight distance. Does anyone have any ideas to alleviate this issue when the states and feds seem to be supporting the motive to maximize the bottom line at any cost?
Thanks,
MikeP

Here is a couple of letters in response to a grade crossing in which a school bus uses twice a day. As a matter of discussion the railroad owns 100ft. of Right of Way on the "bluff" side. Would appreciate some help in "removing" the coziness between TDOT and the railroads and it appears the Coffee County Schools would too.
Subject: Railroad crossings

Dear Mike:

You had written Mr. Cummins concerning crossings in Coffee County. Our
buses cross about 10-12 crossings daily. The one you have pointed out
on Ralph Broadrick Rd. is by for the most dangerous we have. We have
spoken to the state department of safety concerning this crossing. They
are aware of the situation and have basicly said it would be too
expensive to make any improvements to this crossing and I think that is
about what the railroad company said also.

We are concerned about this situation, but do not know how to proceed.
Any help you could give or get would be of benifit to us and the safety
of our students.

Thanks,

Dr. Prater Powell, Deputy Director
Coffee Co. Schools

I agree with you. I own the farm that is adjacent to the Normandy crossing and saw the first fatal wreck last year and knew John Freeman very well. This crossing needs a gate if ever I saw one. Ralph Brodwick's crossing terrifies me every time I cross it. I want to dynamite that darn rock outcropping that block my view so badly. Right now we are fending off legislation that will ease restrictions on the responsibilities of railroads as it relates to their crossings. I want to make sure we defeat these bills, then we will work to make the Tullahoma/Normandy area crossings a priority. Please be so kind as to send me an email sometime in the summer to remind me to draft some type of legislation for introduction early next year. I would do it this year, but we can't introduce any new bills this session. Thank you so much for your email.

Judd Matheny


TOO EXPENSIVE TO PROTECT THE LIVES OF SCHOOL CHILDREN ON A SCHOOL BUS? DOES ANYONE HAVE CHILDREN THAT RIDE ON A SCHOOL BUS? THERE ARE HUNDREDS OF CROSSINGS JUST LIKE THIS ONE THAT NEED ATTENTION, YET TDOT IN MY STATE REFUSES TO ENFORCE BASIC SIGHT DISTANCE REQUIREMENTS PER THE MUTCD.