Sight Distance and preventable deaths at grade cro

[Anonymous]

A 70 mph truck is on a highway with one way traffic going the same direction. Not 3 lanes of traffic with 2, $20 cross-buck (yield) signs with the drivers heads bouncing off the roofs of their vehicles because the crossings are so rough.
Trains killed somebody every .8 million miles last year. Trucks, cars , busses one fatality every 67 million miles. Almost 90 to 1. Amtrak killed somebody around every 250,000 train miles which is like 200 to one. They have to have the worse safety record of any company in the US.

[Anonymous]

Earth to Houston---That is all the state Directors of Operation Lifesavers e-mail addresses. If they did their day jobs they wouldn't need Operation Lifesaver. Like the FRA people could arrest themeselves for sitting train speeds without haveing the proper safety equipment in place, the Railroad people should take all the trains to DC and park them until the train speeds are lowered, the state people could have adjoining cells with the FRA, and the safety council people should take some courses in traffic engineering.

[Anonymous]

Mike, you said that Tim was "sicker than the rest of us foulmouthed railroaders." Well, I'm here to set you straight. You and your cause are sick. It is fools like yourself that cause insurance to be higher,(and the cost of just about everything else) and ruin activities that we all enjoy. All due to stupid lawsuits from people who are not willing to take responsibility for their own actions. A sue happy socioty. Case in point: we all know that drag racing on public streets is bad business. People should take it to the track, right, wrong.......you can't do that in many places anymore. Why? Because somebody got hurt doing it and sued, the liability insurance is too high for the strip owners. No more Friday night High School drags! Where do kids go now? To the streets. A small example of your sue happy think at work! Now back to RRing and me being foul mouthed and sick. Do you have the balls to tell me that to my face? Do you have the balls to tell any RRer to his face that he is "sick?" I strongly doubt it. What would happen in either case is you would rightfully ger your little sissy a*s whooped. Period! Then what? Well you would sue for anything and everything that you could think of and wonder why you got your a*s whooped. You poor soul. You are the victim of a terrible thing called being a ***! And don't forget that the opening picture of that piece of *** site, "angelsontrack.org," is two kids in the RIGHT OF WAY being helped along by their personal guardian angel. That is a clear depiction of how you people think. "Gee, I got smushed by the meen 'ol train. What did I ever do to cause that? I was only standing ON THE TRACK." Now go post on that cry baby site and get the he*l outta here. You are not wanted! On your way there, become a man! Don't come back until you walk up to a RRer face to face and tell him (not her) that he is foul mouthed and sick. (I would love to watch that one unfold) Until you have the testicular fortitude to do that, you are not a man! My sweet little daughter has more spine and honor than you. Now be gone with you!
Ken

[Anonymous]

Our bureaucracy at work!!! Instead of trying to find solutions, they misdirect responsibility to others.

[edblysard]

And now that I think of it, thats mis- approation of public funds, taxpayers money spent for these guys entertainment. Bet thoses mis appropreated funds could buy a lot of barricades.

[edblysard]

Did you notice how many were goverment addresses, states agencies, florida, ill. even a fra employee. Wonder if their bosses know they play on a chat room/forum with state property on state time?

[edblysard]

Oh, and I did notice this guy didnt volunteer his socical security benefits to by cameras and barricades, but he has no problem asking me to give up my retirement.

[csxengineer98]

oh so a train going 70 or so MPH isnt ok..but a trailer truck on the highway going the same speed is exceptable... and they can kill just the same a train...i dont see you complaining about trucks being alowed on the same roads a the cars are... sounds to me like you got a double standers aginst the rail roads... or your a truck driver.. either way... you need to get your head out of your butt
csx engineer

[csxengineer98]

mike,
did she stop..and listen? probobly not... you can hear a trains horn for some miles...
my bet is..she just came up to the crossing...talking on a cell phone..or putting her makeup on...and since thier was not a train right in front of her...just keep on long... didnt even stop to listen... drove right out in front of that train..and payed the price for her stupidity... its sad that it cost her her kid..but maybe she is a bit wiser at rail road crossings from now on
and i dont like your attitude about us rail roaders...we are only fowel mouths becouse of miserable people like you that think you know how to solove all the problems for people that should know better in the first place...
csx engineer

[Anonymous]

WOW! There's going to be allot of PO'd people when they find out how freely there E-adresses are posted for the world to see. I dont even want to get involved in another argument about this topic....they always seem to have the same redderic.

[edblysard]

Hi Tim,
I think the guy has railroad retirement confused with some type of bonus, or profit sharing program. The railroad retirement is what we, railroaders pay into as a retirement plan. Its the tier 2 tax, as opposed to the tier 1 tax, social security tax. When we retire, we have to use up the railroad retirement benifits before we can apply for SSI, even though we pay both.
Its rare we ever live long enought to collect the SSI, even though we pay it, along with medicare deductions, The railroad retirement is managed by the federal goverment, in essence, we lend them the money to invest, and profits, minus expenses, are returned to the fund. Sorta like a goverment run 401k, just less profit. And I dont think this guy realized that the last part of his posting explaines where the ohio opperation lifesaver program was found by the board to not be a railroad run organization, it even stated that the board of directors was now composes of one railroader, the rest of the board were non railroaders. So I was kinda confused too.
But the mailing list he so kindly included will be very useful. Wonder if he realizes its against most states privacy policy to use a state computer for personel use? And did you look at all the state address? Talk about misuse.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Anonymous]

Sir, I am a bit confused as to the point that you are trying to make. Can you please clarify?
TIM A

[csxns]

Mike P did somebody get killed in your family.Or are you kin to Rhyne the boy that is on the angels on track that was killed.Just wondering.

[Anonymous]

Mike,
You do not care about railroad crossing safty. This is just a childish attempt by you to upset persons of a particular group. (Railroaders and Railroad fans) Please grow up or move to another sight.
TIMOTHY ARGUBRIGHT

[Anonymous]

Operation Lifesaver motto: "All accidents are the fault of the driver". This is cold,callous and most importantly wrong. How about putting some energy into enforcement of sight distance instead of the propaganda that its all the drivers fault. The crossing that I'm familiar with at the trial had 70FEET of right of way that COULD OF given this young girl over 500ft. of sight distance. As my friend Bob Pines says: "you can cross safely under these conditions in a steam roller." its all the SHARED responsibility, not JUST the drivers.

[Anonymous]

Timothy,
You sir are brainwashed like the rest of them to think that it is all the drivers responsibility for crossing safety. How about looking at it from a neutral(can you do that?) perspective or maybe even as a mom or dad who lost a child due to $1000 sight distance improvement that wasn't done because the profit margin may be effected. If you think this is a game that I'm playing then you are sicker than the foul mouthed railroaders on this thread. I happen to know a mother that lost a child for this very reason. How about getting off your railroad high horse and putting yourself in her shoes. How would you feel if your daughter was killed and the railroad said in the trial; "Vegetation was a non-issue, we were never cited for it".
Mike

[Anonymous]

Ever notice Mike how all the Operation Lifesaver people are all on the payrolls for the railroads, FRA, State DOTs, or some kinda safety council? Heck they even get railroad retirement. No way they are scream for the millions in missing safety equipment.Then you have the railroads actually paying some of the goof balls (attorneys acting like RR employees) on here to come up with it's the dumb drivers fault or dumb trespasers fault when the railroads ALWAYS are found at fault in court. Like the guy saying all the equipment is paid for by the railroads. Railroads don't pay diddly and make a small fortune in overcharges on what they do put in. Takes a low life to kill somebody then overcharge on the equipment that should have been in place to start with.

----- Original Message -----
From: pino40
To: [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; > ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; jonper@wcgnet ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; [e-mail]
Sent: Friday, May 16, 2003 6:23 AM
Subject: It really gets old


...Senek said 46 percent of all railroad crossing crashes happen when the crossing gates and lights are in operation...

It really gets old seeing you all downplay the importance of safety equipment. Hey Mr. Senek how about putting per traffic volumn on this statement. It still comes down to gates prevent 9 out of 10 collisions and lights 8 out of 10 collisions. I don't care how you cook the figures. Why wasn't you raising heck "WHERE'S THE MEDIAN BARRIERS?" or "WHERE THE HECK IS THE VIDEO CAMERA ON THE TRAIN THAT PROVES ANYBODY WENT AROUND ANYTHING?" or "WHY THE HECK WAS THE TRAIN GOING THROUGH AT 80 MPH? Are you jury tampering by blameing the driver when you have absolutely no evidence?????????????

A person can beat a train on steam roller IF they can see it comeing. Mr. Senek why didn't the lady see the train??? Would the retirement funds have paid for the missing median barriers?

EMPLOYER STATUS DETERMINATION
Ohio Operation Lifesaver
This is the decision of the Railroad Retirement Board regarding the continued status of the Ohio Operation Lifesaver, as an employer under the Railroad Retirement Act (45 U.S.C. § 231, et seq.) (RRA) and the Railroad Unemployment Insurance Act (45 U.S.C. § 351, et seq.) (RUIA).

Ohio Operation Lifesaver was held to be a covered employer effective June 24, 1986, in Legal Opinion L-87-21 (B.A. Number 7325). Its purpose is to serve, educate, and inform the general public about highway/railroad grade crossing laws and to promote highway/railroad grade crossing safety throughout the state of Ohio in an effort to reduce crashes, injuries and fatalities. It has one employee. Formerly, one-half of its board of directors consisted of representatives of the four railroads that funded Ohio Operation Lifesaver.1 Consequently, Ohio Operation Lifesaver was held to be under common control with two or more railroad employers. Effective December 10, 2002, the bylaws of Ohio Operation Lifesaver changed so that the board of directors is now composed of thirteen voting members, of which seven are from non-railroad organizations.

Section 202.11 of the Board’s regulations provides that:

The employer status of any company or person shall terminate whenever such company or person loses any of the characteristics essential to the existence of an employer status.

A majority of the Board finds that through the change in its bylaws and composition of its board of directors, Ohio Operation Lifesaver is no longer under common control with two or more railroad employers.

Accordingly, a majority of the Board holds that Ohio Operation
Lifesaver ceased to be an employer under the Railroad Retirement and Railroad Unemployment Insurance Acts effective with the close of business on December 10, 2002.

[wabash1]

the only filth here is you mike. so if you want something cleared or cleaned go somewhere else. Tim what you must remeber is that railroaders are thick skined, we haft to be, so someone like mike is not going to do us any harm. We live in a enviroment (railroaders) that we take pride in what we do. there is no glory no heros. we do a job we love. that is the only reason we do it. I dont consider what i do as work couse i love my job. even when i was a conductor i loved it. Now i sit behind the throttle. I was told along time ago if you find the job you love it dont matter what it pays couse you never feel like its work. and it is true. even though i need to pay the mortage and car paayments. the short is wont nobody run us off if we dont want to be run off.

[Anonymous]

Thank you CabForward!
Mr Editor, How about cleaning this up. I see quite a bit of discussion that is filty.
Thanks,
Mike

[Soo2610]

You forget that BMW, Jaguar and Mercedes Benz need these crossings. Otherwise the Yuppy, money hungry personal injury lawyers wouldn't be able to afford their products.

[Anonymous]

Congradulations Mike, you did it again. You wanted to start controversy and you did. Probably for some cheap thrill you get. Please Sir, can you play your game on another sight? I realize no body is forced to read or look at this thread but you write it in a way to purposly upset railroaders. My fear is that you will chase a lot of talent from this sight.
So please Sir out of respect to us who come here to learn, can you take your game some where else?
TIMOTHY ARGUBRIGHT

[csxns]

I am talking about crossings that are built now.

[Anonymous]

In the area I am talking about, with the exception of the GM plant the crossings all run through what you could call down town. There is no room for installing sidings for new customers. The nearest highway is 5 miles to the north and 10 to 15 miles to the south.

[csxns]

What about new industrial tracks that have to reach a new coustomer and a highway has to be crossed.Will the rr woant the new business because it crosses a highway.

[Anonymous]

I live in Arlington, TX, near Fort Worth. Here the main rail road that goes though town is the Union Pacific. In seventeen years living here I haven't heard of a grade crossing accident. Believe me, there are several in the city. They cross double track main lines. At one point they even cross four tracks that is part of a yard for the General Motors assembly plant in Arlington. One thing they do here is time all the traffic lights for two to three blocks so that all the lights turn red in the lanes that cars would cross the tracks when the train is going through. This minimises the number of cars that can sit at the crossing. I know this is done on the buisiest streets in town. Honestly I'd rather sit at the crossing to wave at the crews as they go by. After reading the posts by the engineers here, I will give you a salute and say keep up the good work you all do! You guys have one of the toughest jobs around!

Terry

[csxengineer98]

todd...
the problem here is...not the warning devices..not line of sight...no the rail road...its the people that ingor the warnings..and deside to run the crossing... even if you put the loudest bell/horn with the brightest flashing lights..and a 6 foot concreat wall the comes down over the road...someone at some point will try and find away around it... and try and beat the train..bottom line...this line of sight posting is crap... this mike person that started this posting i way out in left field and has no idea how it is on the real world.
csx engineer

[Anonymous]

Sorry, I just skimmed through all the posts here, so perhaps it has already been brought up. Take a look at that wild grade crossing device in this months issue of Trains. With these kid's loud sound systems in their cars these days, perhaps that "air-raid siren" wasn't too far off. Of course, I wouldn't want to have a house anywhere near the thing.
Todd C.

[edblysard]

Hey, RmC,
In part. I agree whole heartedly with you, eliminate grade crossings. And as far as I am concerned, every lawsuit which does make it to court, should, if the plaintiff wins, include a provision that the local DOT upgrade the crossing with the maximum amount of protection. What I was try to point out is that the crossing isnt the property of the railroads, it belongs to the taxpayers themselves. But sadly, most suits dont make it to court, so the chance of the insurance companies sueing the crossing desinger or the DOT is almost nill. And most states place limits on what damages you can recover. Your railroad, mine, and just about every other carrier follows the same policy, when every there is a grade crossing accident, regardless if it involves a fatality or not, make such a impressive settlement offer that the attorney representing the plaintiff gets greedy, and cons them into the settlement.
Railroads are a business, and just like every other business, their main goal is to make a proffit, which they pay out in dividends to their shareholders. Yes, the management do make a very handsome salary. So do the CEO's of Microsoft, IBM and others. Also, just like every other business, they have the right to defend them selves. Now, I agree there are a lot of dangerous crossings, but the few times a case does get to court, it isnt hard to convince a jury most drivers have a option to not drive around a crossing gate. Yes, real accidents do happen, the man who was killed when his dog pulled him in front of the Amtrak sounds like one. Again, just like any other business, railroads dont like to go to court, its bad for business, and, in the event they do lose, it sets a legal precedent to assign fault to them in later suits, so they go to extraordinary lengths to stay out of court.
It would seem you too have come to the conclusion that the safest grade crossing is the one which isnt there. Your a signal engineer, whos spent years installing gates and signals to prevent people from getting hurt, yet despite your best efforts, people still go to great lengths to beat a train, avoid having to wait at the gates, and still get hurt. Eliminate the option for the public, do away with the at grade crossings. I do urge you to find out who is resopnsible for the design of the grade crossings that bother you. Write them and their boss, and whoever is the representive for the district, and let them know that, not only will you be very vocal about their inactivity to improve exsisting crossings, but you will point out that there is a option to not have one there at all. Tell them you intend to not vote for them again, and you will urge all of your friends to not vote for them either.
Ever notice that most locomotive engineers dont sue the motorist who survive an accident? They have a legal right to, especially if the accident is clearly the motorist fault, and the accident causes the engineer mental anguish, loss of wages, duress and financial loss, which they all do suffer. But they dont sue them, mostly because they feel they(the motorist) have suffered enough.
And your right about one thing, it is all about the money. The lawyers know how hard and expensive it is to sue the DOT, or the state, who are responsible for the badly designed crossings, instead they urge the people involved to follow the money, which leads right to the carrier. Dont know what your upset about, with the exception of the dead people at the crossing accident, everybody wins. The personal injury lawyer wins a big percent of the settlement, the survivors win a ticket for life, the railroads win, in that they stay out of court, and the designers and civil engineers who made the god awfull mistake of ever thinking you can mix cars and train without someone getting killed get off scott free. Everyone wins, except the dead people.
You know the term used by them when they design a bad crossing or street intersection? Acceptable fatality rate ring a bell? The morons have a formula to calculate how many people will be killed at any given crossing, based on design considerations. If the number of deaths will fall below a certain rate, they build the thing. They allready know people will die there, yet they build it anyway.
Now, whos responsible? The railroads, who do everything in their power to keep any crossing from being built, or the people who sue the railroad for the right to build a crossing where they already know people will die?
Still trying to Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Anonymous]

I don't know where to start, but I want so badly to contribute.
Reading everything that has been said here has been extreamly emotional. I have been between two places reading it all.
At first I was happy reading that someone was trying to take on the community, asking for railroaders advice on how to properly go about it. I was enthusiastic. Then a couple of engineers came on, and my own black memories started to haunt me. All I could think reading their angry statements was..."It doesn't matter if there is a crossing, with large flashing red lights and a fog horn and an alert with bells and whistles and the engineers sound their succession on horns...none of it matters at the end of the day. Because at the end of the day, if you sat in an engin for even four hours, you would relize that it doesn't mean a thing.....they don't care. They go right through them anyways. They think that I am some slow moving freight train trickling along and I can stop any time, any where. They don't realize that I am a high speed passenger train that will knock the life out of them in an exriciating momment..."
I have given up two days off to Operation Life saver. Thing is, when you talk to kindergarten kids, you can't really tell them about all the gore....I can't even mention that on here! I have to tell them about "Roger the Railroad Rabbit" and "where do you think would be a safe place to play?" It is a truly good program, but I'm not strong enough to do it anymore.
However, If there was some way that you could petition your community, to make them aware of the danger of that crossing, your efforts, (successful or non successful) would at least educate people, for at least a short while on the dangers of rail road crossings. The rail roads however, as I believe Ed pointed out, are not at all responsible or ALOWD to touch the private property they cross through. You don't cut down your neighbours tree because it blocks your morning sun, do you?
TORONTO

[Anonymous]

Hey! Before we can "Stay Frosty", we need to GET frosty. All the guy asked for was that someone take responsibility for removing a public hazard. That action will benefit us all. But why the heck is it so hard to get the land owners (the rr) or the highway dept. to keep the land clear of obstructions to the view? My city even makes me maintain the view of the road from my own driveway.

Yes I know that most accidents are caused by stupid irresponsible people. But so what. Speaking as a professional signal engineer who's job it is to try to prevent even smart people from having accidents, there is no excuse for anyone to maintain a public hazard when it can be prevented. IT CAN BE PREVENTED!

And why would anyone object to that being done - especially someone who has experienced the pain you have and knows the horible consequence of doing nothing. And by the way, no one can really help you overcome pain except someone else who also "Knew" it themselves.

I have a number of friends who's train HAS hit someone. One hit a little 7 year old retarded boy who got on the tracks through a hole in the fence - put there by local youth gangs! Of course management just callously hauled him off to the company doctor - balling his head off - to pee in a bottle!

He should've sued the discusting cretens (the boss and the railroad - and the gang members), but didn't. The man took seven months on mental disability before he could come back to work! The stress almost destroyed his marriage.

Still I could not help him in anyway except to keep reminding him he was innocent of any fault and blameless before God. I never realized that such "intellectualizing" may be well-meaning but essentially useless, until I witnessed a grade crossing death myself.

Even though, as a signal engineer, I take great pride in my work and "intellectually" beleave it saves many lives - it all came to naught when an old man (a pedestrian) was killed by an Amtrak train through no fault of his own - even while the grade crossing signals were blaring and flashing away.

The man had just cleared the tracks when the signals started. But a woman who had just passed him walking the other-way turned and started yelling and screamming at him. She then picked up a rock and threw it at him, whereupon his leashed dog lunged out at her - Yanking him into the path the Amtrak, killing him. She skipped out
of course. Though I told the police which path she took into the park, I don't believe they ever found her. The police did treat it as a crime scene though, since her assault resulted in his death.

It never mattered who's fault it was, or that it was treated as a murder, or that I was really just a bystander. IT HURT for a long time. Still does!

Though I make my living installing railroad signals, I have concluded that the only sure method of preventing such tradegies is to eliminate all grade crossings, fence the right of way, and patrol the fence DAILY.

SO WHY CAN'T THIS HAPPEN! Having pushed for this a long time now at the professional level - I am very discouraged. I can assure you; it is all about money and nothing but money. Neither the railroad nor the stupid highway designers nor the beholden politians will part with any of it willingly. It's money for lives! Its that simple. I know the ignorance you see from the train is horrifying, but you should blame these guys who ARE smart enough to know better but don't care. That's why the constant lawsuits - society is blaming them more.

By the way, I once had an auto accident that my insurance company said was caused by an improper highway design and not in any way my fault. They successfully sued the state, got their money back and got the highway fixed. At this point, I say until public hazards are eliminated, let the lawyers duke it out. Maybe it will help.

Since no one is willing to take responsibilty for removing the hazard that any access across railroad tracks presents to the public, all working railroaders must unite with an angry public, AND DEMAND IT! And keep kicking out the d&%@ politians until they listen.

If they do ever heed the demand to eliminate grade crossings and put up fencing - you won't have to endure this horror again.

D.R.I.P. on 'em! "Don't Return Incumbent Politicians" until they heed the demand.

RmC