Americans and Germans?

[Supermicha]

Hi, i´m from germany and a big american railway fan. Today i just want to know what do you think:

1. about the iraq war?
2. about the german oppinion to the war?

Please don´t tell me about the german history, i know it is not the best. Just tell me, what you think about this big political problem that we have.

My opinion, is, that mr. bush is too critical too us in germany. i think the war is not correct, but i don´t think that the americans are stupid because they are there. i have friends in the usa and we have no problems with each other. so i hope germans and americans will understand each other also in future like in past.

Micha

[dknelson]

Sorry Michael we are all too busy making rude jokes about the French to bother thinking about Germany today. I have yet to hear a single anti German joke which suggests nobody cares about German opposition.
For example:
I hear the French army is selling old WWII rifles. The ad says "Rifles for sale. Never fired -- dropped only once."

Dave Nelson

[Anonymous]

The only rude joke about the Germans I've heard is the irony of Americans being called arrogant by the French and militaristic by the Germans.

Seriously, a few who are against the war seems to feel that freedom of speech also gives them the freedom to be rude and disruptive. That is what angers me.

By the way, in the '50's the rifle sale was for Italian rifles.

[Anonymous]

Why do the french plant so many trees along the roadsides? Because the Germans like to march in the shade.

[edblysard]

Go to Normandy.
Stand in the middle of the U.S. Cemetery.
Turn in a circle.
10943 graves.
Most were kids, under 20.
They died for a idea, a concept that any people have the right to determine who leads them. That forcing your political and personal views on others is wrong.
If you cant feel the pain, the terror, and the courage and valor of these kids, and dont fall to you knees in thanks for all they have given the rest of the world, I would wonder if you are alive yourself.
I dont agree with President Bush's decision to invade another country, one who hasnt attacked the US directly, and I will make my feeling known next election.
That said, the fact is we are there, fighting a war, and a new group of kids are doing exactly what we trained them to do, dieing for a idea.
Its not like we can turn back.
So if you cant support them with pride, then at least support them with a silent respect.
Mica, in the 80s, your people got tired of the wall, and tore it down.
Good job.
You and your country are free, due in large part the the sacrifices of those 10943 kids buried at Normandy.
Yes, our opponents were German, but it wasnt the people of Germany, instead it was the goverment and its pratices we fought.
Tearing down that wall shows the rest of the world just how you feel.
My Grandfather came from Germany, my dad served in the U.S. Navy, he piloted a LST there at Normandy.
What a lot of folks dont know is there is another cemetery there, for the defenders of Normandy. I went there too, and the pain and honor was just as real.
No matter how you hard you try, its still terrifying to see that many graves, full of kids, no mater what side you were on, war still is horrible.
Ed

[Anonymous]

I for one support our troops and our Preident.Like it our not we have a job to do and a country to liberate just like the French in WW2 .iraq didn't live up to there agreement and never will . The people of iraq can't voice there opinion on what they feel and there women are treated like third rate citizens so maybe we would all welcome the British and American forces if we had to live like that.and if you think for a second that the the iraq government hasn't put money towards terrisom then you have been in a cave for the past 20 years and that effects every one in the world ,so we do it now or later after something bad happens again and causes more suffering and a bigger toll to pay.thats all I have to say and I hope that I didn't offend anyone I wish we just could all get along so we could concentrate on what really matters trains. thankyou

[Anonymous]

I am an american of German heritage, and find pride in the fact that when we march, people pay attention!

Often you hear these ponderous musings over "What happened to Rome?" as if it is some great mystery. Look at the languages of Europe: spannish, french, italian........all so similar (derived from latin) then you have German.

HA! what happened to Rome? Ask them about the Y1K disaster! The folks that would one day become the German people is "what happened to Rome".

The present situation? Did you see the list of the 34 countries that Bush cited as supporting our action? Not really the types of nation where anyone gives a darn what they have to say the rest of the time, so why get so worked up now?

Getting Saddam out of power is a worthwhile action, but america disgraces itself over the way we are going about it, breaking every rule we normally claim matters...

[adrianspeeder]

Right on Ed. I will print 2 copies of that and tape one to my wall and give the other to my grandfather.

-Adrian

[Anonymous]

>>So if you cant support them with pride, then at least support them with a silent respect
Nice way to guilt peddel folks into surrendering their right to express opposed opinion, herr Ed........

I'm not trying to fault you specifically, because I've seen that type of thinking make the rounds a lot lately, perversely akin to the "your either with us or against us" fascist drivell coming off of 1600 Pennsylvania avenue. And *that* is just not what america stands for, I'm sorry......


I think back to all the compound monday morning quarterbacking following WWII, the scorn placed upon the German People, how they MUST have known about the attrocities of the Halocaust, how they SHOULD have done something about it How the German soldiers SHOULD have objected yo the immorality of the goings on and gladly taken a bullet to the head, instead of becoming complicit.

Well, if you know that what we are doing in Iraq is wrong, what's keeping ya? Because our president is making us all complicit, like it or not. And the fact that the victor will be the one writting the history books makes it no less immoral what is going on over there..

The real culprit here is quite common, not specific to ol "W" , but he's sitting there with his fingers in his ears chanting "I'm going into the books as a hero".

Then we wonder where the "nuts" like Lee Harvey Oswald come from.

[Anonymous]

For Michael,
I spent three wonderful years in Mannheim and made some great friends and look back at that as some of the best times of my life.
Not every country is going to accept America's lead in everything we do and we just have to live with it.
I do not feel badly about the Germans or the French for not backing us in this war, personally I really do not accept the reasons we are there. I think "dubya" wanted revenge for the attempt on his "daddy's life".
I am ex-military, my daughter was airborne and a veteran of Somallia, my son a vet of Desert Storm, Bosnia, Kosovo and was on duty at the pentagon on 9/1 so I will support our boys and girls in uniform to the utmost.
However, this does not mean I will support clowns who have never heard a shot fired in anger who send them in harms way.
Pop

[Anonymous]

I would like to say that saddam is getting what he has coming. I have a problem with a ruler that treats his citizens like he does, He is a dictator that has no problem with gassing and killing men,women,and children. The U.N. failed as well as other countries that contenued to supply his regime with military hardware to build his forces. Its funny, because the military hardware that saddams regime has recieved to build his forces better than what he had during desert storm came from Russia and France. Hey, thats the two countries that argued so hard to keep the war from happening. Thats because they didn't want anyone to know that they were violating the U.N. sanctions. I don't like war, But I support the troops that are there. Tony

[sooblue]

Hi Michael,
Freedom of speech is wonderful isn't it.
You and I live in countries that believe in that right, among others. That said, I will tell you what I think.
I don't believe that there is a problem between either the French or the Germans and we in the USA other than a difference of opinion.
The BEST friends that the USA has are it's former enemies. England(war of independence), France(French Indian wars), Germany & Japan (WWII).
WHY? Partly because we don't hold grudges, because we will help to rebuild, because we stand by our friends (brothers).
Will the French forget the part the USA played in their liberation? Will the Germans forget the Berlin airlift? Or the pressure exerted that brought down the Berlin wall and opened the Iron Curtain? Will the bosnian people forget their liberation? Will the Iraqis forget their liberation? I don't believe so.
The USA has always fought for freedom and the people of the world have always depended on us to fight for freedom.
Yes, the USA is arguably the most powerful nation the world has ever seen. But, Name one world power in history that used its power to LIBERATE another people. No, their power was used to plunder and enslave!
Are we a perfect power? NO. But we fight for freedom! Even in Vietnam we fought for freedom!
The USA doesn't plunder.
There have been times that we haven't stepped up to the plate and gone to bat for freedom, and then we've heard the world say we don't do enough.
Than when we do go to bat, like for Bosnia we hear the same lame complaints from the same people that, we are interfering. Tell that to those we have liberated.
To those who are able to embrace free speech and think that we are in Iraq for oil,
To those who can stand up and give the finger to George Bush without fear of death but think we are trying to colonize the Mid-east, YOU FOOLS
To those who can get up in the morning and do as they please ALL DAY LONG with out fear, with out looking over your shoulder and wondering if today will be the last sunshine you will see. To those who have forgotten how ONE man was placated in 1939 by saying if you sign a peace treaty with us we'll let you have Poland and Austria, to you I say, Your IGNORENT MIZERS. Freedom isn't cheap but there are some countries in this world willing to foot the bill so others can know it. That's what AMERICA is all about, FREEDOM.
Sooblue

[edblysard]

Hi Rick,
I didnt think I was peddeling anything, just using one of those constitutional rights I belive in, you know, the one thoses 10943 kids died defending? The right to express my opinion. In case you didnt notice, I stated I dissagree with our presence there, and a war we seemed to have declared. Dad and Uncle Ed where both WWII vets, both stressed that America's armed forces were a defenseive tool, not a political tool. Both objected to Vietnam, but Dad served.
Do you remember the news footage of Americans spitting on Vietnam vets?
My Dad knew that feeling very well.
I never said "support the war or keep quite". What I apparently said badly was they, our kids, are there, and if you cant offer them your support, dont offer them your scorn. They are, after all, our kids, and even if you dont agree with why they are there, you should reconize the fact that they performed in the manner we expect professional soliders to.
And the big diffrence between us now, and the German people then is quite clear. The only information the Germans got, untill very late in the war, was what the propaganda minister released. Quite a few Germans thought the were winning the war, right up untill the end.
Did they know what was being done to the Jews?
I am sure they did.
Did you know what was being done to blacks in the deep south, as late as ten years ago?
If you did, whats keeping you?
This is one of the first times the armed forces had reporters as part of their force, and this has been called the "living room war", due in part to the fact that we see, in real time, whats happening, and our troops know we, the people of America, are watching them.
And no, we are not the only ones who will be writing the history of this, they get CNN in Europe too!
And you really dont have to explain about the holocaust to the grandson of a german jew, I think I have a good idea of what went on then.
As for complacenct, I intend to be very non-complacent next election, and urge you to do so too, if thats what you feel will change things.
Of course, the right to excerise your vote, in one of the few countries on this planet where you can do so freely, was paid for already.
By almost 11000 kids.
I dont wonder where the "nuts" come from.
I just wonder where that many heroes came from.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Supermicha]

Thanks for the replies. I´m happy, that some of you have such a good opinion. But the thing what makes me very sad, is the following: Saddam is bad, no question, and he must go away, how, is not really important, the americans choosed the war to get him away. But, remember, 20 years ago, the USA supported Saddam in its fight against the Iran! And also Osama was supported by the USA for its fight against russia! I think there is something wrong, or not? And if the us win the war against saddam, will the iraq be free? Is a country free, if its controlled from another? I don´t think. Call me stupid, maybe i´m too young to understand it, but would you attack your neighbour, only why he has 10 weapons at home? I don´t think so. I think the USA should stop playing world police, at first, they should try to clear the problems in there own country. The USA is that country, with the most wars according to ther "short history", this is not correct i think. But its my oppinion, and we are free of speech.

Micha

[edblysard]

Hi Mica,
Question for you.
Who controls Germany?
Who controls Japan?
Italy?
We won WWII, and rebuilt, or helped rebuild these countries.
Then we took our army, and went home.
Yes, we left military bases in Europe, at the request of most of the countries involved.
And funny, every time one smaller country is threatened by another, bigger country, the smaller country always demands the USA get involved, and help them beat the big bad guys.
If we dont, we are called callous and uncaring, and damned by everyone for not stoping the bad guys.
Then, we we do get involved, we damned again for getting involved.
We didnt decide to become the world's policeman, you guys appointed us that job. And every time we do our job, we are the bad guys.
And no, we dont have the most wars to our credit.
Japan, Germany, Russia and Italy, not to mention France and Great Britian, each and all exceed the USA in the number of wars fought in the last two centuries.
Another question for you.
Is Germany perfect yet?
Does your country have any internal problems, like poverty?
If so, why are you worring about what some other country is doing? Should not you worry about clearing your problems first, before worring about others?
Of course your country has problems, name me one that dosnt.
But Saddam isnt just a American problem.
Just like the USSR wasnt just a American problem.
Remember that wall?
When any country threatens the safety of the entire world, and disregards the laws it agreed to abide by, its everyones problem.
Now, I dont entirely agree with how our goverment has chosen to handle Iraq, but no one else seemed to want to take care of him, just sit around and complain that he was a problem.
So the world police were called, and now that we are there, we are the bad guys again.
And if my neighbor had 1000 guns, and marched around his front yard with one, I wouldnt do a thing.
But what if he pointed one of his guns at me or my kids?
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Anonymous]

If we are going to go around the world helping oppressed people, then how about the Palestinians.
They have had their land stolen from them and have been persecuted since 1948.
Pop

[Anonymous]

9/11 AND YOU KNOW IT DON'T PLAY STUPID !!!

[edblysard]

Hi Pop,
I couldnt agree with you more.
But, sadly, they have nothing to sell that Americans want to buy, so business, which drives the political process in this country, ingnores them. Ad to it the fact that we use Israel as a world police substation in that part of the world even further distortes the plight they face.
Ironic, they are fighting in a city and the area around it, where the most influential peace maker the world has ever know was born and raised.
They kill each other in the streets of a city both hold as the most holy.
And Jesus wept...
Ed

[ironhorseman]

If the USA should stop acting as the world's police then who will take that roll? The United Nations? I hope to God not.

Saddam is being taken out by force because it is no secret he hates the U.S. and would do anything to destroy us. He is a back-stabber. True,the U.S. supported him over 23 years ago, but the U.S. was much different then. The president at the time was Jimmy Carter, from the Democrat party. The president now is George Bush, from the Republican party. We're cleaning up the mistakes of the democrats. Bill Clinton, a Democrat, had the opportunity to get Osama bin Ladin in 1998 and refused. September 11 trajedy could have been avoided. Also, where were all the protestors during Bill Clinton's wars? Remember Mogadishu? How about Bosnia? or Kosovo? How about the bombing of the asperin factory in Iraq during Clinton's adminstration? Where were the protestors then?! Where was the outrage then?

The world gets the perception the USA is all bad but they fail to see the people we have freed from oppression, the humanitarian aid we give to many other countries. We send missionaries all over the world to help the poor. Every day on TV there are commericals to donate money to feed the poor children of the world. The USA government gives millions of dollars in aid to countries suffering natural disasters such as earthquakes and floods and will never see one dollar returned.

America DOES take care of herself. Everyday our city and state governments pass legislation or raise taxes to build better streets, pay for food for the homeless and hungry, create jobs for the unemployed.

America has risen herself up from the dirt back in 1776 to shake of the tyranical chains of Great Britain to become the most powerful, most beloved, and even the most hated nation on the face of the earth and we did it on own with out help from anyone. Sure, Americans are boastful and love to brag, but can you blame us? It takes a special kind of person to be an American. It takes guts and determination. REMEMBER: we are a nation of ALL imigrants. The natives migrated from Asia. The Europeans came in the 1500s to present day. We are Germans, French, Russians, Irish, Chinese, Africans, Austrailians, and even Iraqis. "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses to breath free..." inscription on Statue of Liberty.

From 1863-1869 we built a railroad from the mid-west to the Pacific Ocean. This is 2/3 of the continent 1,700 miles. There were no settlements anywhere of anysize execpt at Salt Lake City, Utah. The crews would cross the praries, the desert, and into the Great Rocky Mountains at an altitude of 8,000 feet blasting through solid granite with nothing more than hand chisels and black gun powder. Nearly 2,000 died or were severly wounded doing this. Who started it all? Four shopkeepers and a man with a vision: Theodore Judah. Read Stephen E. Ambrose's book "Nothing Like It In The World" or see the American Experience video by PBS called the "Iron Road" if you can.

Before this railroad most people walked from Independance, Missouri to west coast over what was known as th Oregon Trail.

Now, maybe I've said too much, and maybe I've become too preachy, but I believe in the USA system of government, I have full faith in our president, and pride in my country and it's history, but hurts everytime someone attacks the USA even if it's just words. A foreigner that attacks the USA is attacking his or her own ancestors and relatives. And Americans that attack other countries also attack their their distant cousins. We don't march into Iraq for fun or games but with a heavy heart that we have a dirty job that needs to be done. The USA gave Saddam the power and now we're sorry we did.

signed,
ironhorseman

P.S. if you have any questions on U.S. history, particularly the railroads, I'd be happy to try and answer them. I'm a univeristy student with a minor in history and my dad is a civics and history teacher.

[sooblue]

Your young, but I won't hold that against you.*smile*
Nations are lead buy people. People grow old and die and new leaders step up to the plate. Our nation has tried to keep a sense of continuity from one leader to another through our congress.
And we have by design changed our leaders every 8 years. We make mistakes and we end up paying for them too.
No nation is perfect in every or any way. Sometimes what the government does and what the people want are two different things yet we support each other as the government is, for the people by the people. And in a greater sense, our government is for the world too!
I must say though that sometimes we Americans do think the world revolves around us but when I pull on my underwear and read made in China I remember that we are part of a greater brotherhood.
Twice before in our history we were Isolationists,
Prior to WWI and prior to WWII. The COST to our allies and us and to your nation and Japan went way beyond $$$ It almost broke the human spirit.
Since that time our nation has determined to not allow that to happen again.
Sometimes I wonder why it takes us so long to act while a people are getting butchered. The UN sits by and watches the butchery, reports on the butchery and shakes it's finger at the butchers but because one veto can derail it the UN is as impotent as a GELDING (a horse with no nuts)
to bad too because the UN is the right organization to deal with those butchers.
Frankly, the world owes the PEOPLE of the USA an apology. In the hands of any other nation even England, the power that we control would have been used to bring the world to its knees. I know this from history.
Of the 6000+ years of history the USA has been on the seen 227 or so years.
Every major power has tried to dominate the known world, Except the USA.
The day will come when our patience will grow thin and we will say enough of this.
The Israeli and Palestinian conflict is what is keeping the Mid-east in turmoil. It could end in a FLASH! or JEW and MUSLEM could end their petty feud and set about redefining boarders so the Palestinians can have a home. Why doesn't the UN, "UNITED NATIONS" do something other than shake a finger?
Sooblue

[Anonymous]

you know of all the statements I herd this was the most mature well thought of them all and I am now better off for hearing it .I salute you and hope in the future we could hear more from you.I also wish we could get off the subject of politics 'smoking dope which seems to be slowly sneaking in to the forum 'but thanks for for standing up for whats right. bnsfpete

[Anonymous]

Everyone peacenik out there thinks the UN was created to stop wars. In fact, if anyone read the UN Charter, especially the French and the Germans, they would realize that the UN was created to spread democracy and freedom!

But since the French have forgotten, and will veto any resolution the UN Security Council might pass resulting in approving any deadline for war, the UN has become irrelevant.....

Now that we have our troops there, I would support a left turn from Baghdad and proceed to Damascus. We might as well as get rid of two military despots with one stroke...

[Anonymous]

I was a military brat. My father seved in our Army. I lived 3 years in Vicenzia, Italy, and 3 years in Frankfurt, Germany, some forty years ago, during the 1960s.

I love both of these nations. I have vacationed in both since. Even in the 1960s as a child, I heard "American Go Home" in both nations.

Nevertheless, I have always forgiven these uninformed Europeans. Every nation has pride....

However, your leadership, especially in France and Germany today, need to reread the UN Charter! The UN was created to foster democracy and freedoms around the world, not to stop wars.....

No one likes wars. But some of us appreciate standing up for human rights abroad. Some of us want to improve the lot of others, to bring civilization to the masses.... The UN should stand up to its charter. Otherwise, the UN becomes irrelevant.....

[eolafan]

BRAVO ED, VERY ELEQUENT, MANY THANKS.

[eolafan]

Dave, here's one for you in return: "How many gears on a French tank? Answer, five...four in reverse and one in forward (just in case they get attacked from the rear)".

Seriously, the French and French companies are going to have to grin and bear the backlash of us Americans. Two examples, I have heard of many folks who are boycotting French hotels like Sofitel, wines and food, I have even heard of hundreds of electrical contractors who are now refusing to do business with Rexel...the largest electrical distributor in the world (and French owned)...how about that for voting with your dollars!

[Anonymous]

A very well thought out and fine bit of writing by ironhorseman.
I also am proud of this nation and have scars on my body from wearing her uniform. My daughter also served in the Airborne in Somallia, my son is served in Desert Storm, Bosnia, Kosovo and was on duty in the Pentagon during 9/11 and still serves there today.
The reason I have stated this is that there is, always has been and always will be Americans who will serve proudly when the need arises. It is up to our leaders to use these people wisely, I have always felt that those who would lead, must first serve. A Commander-in-Chief and Secretary of Defense should have experienced active service in some branch of the Millitary.
And, let's do away with the hyphens. Let's just be Americans.
Pop

[jsanchez]

I stongly believe the U.S is doing the right thing, who can support a dictator who actually put folks in a shredder because they had opposing political views, that whole part of the world needs stability, democracy, and an opposing force to the Islamic fundelmentalism that is keeping this part of the world in the dark. I didn't vote for George Bu***he last election, but I will proudly do so next election. I think the French ,Russians and Germans were more interested in hiding what was going on in Iraq than doing what was right, ending Saddam's tyranny and persecution. My other opinion is the UN is a complete JOKE, how can anyone take an organization seriously that has China, Syria, and Sudan on the human rights commision.

[Anonymous]

France is also removing the blue and red stripes from their flag--all white suits them and they never have to lower it!!!

[Anonymous]

Paris, March 25, 2003.....
The French Government announced today that it is imposing a ban on the use of fireworks at Euro Disney.
The decision comes the day after a nightly fireworks display at the park, located just 30 miles outside of Paris, caused soldiers at a nearby French Army garrison to surrender to a group of German tourists.

[foamer4000]

The British wore red coats to hide the blood when they got shot. The French wear brown pants. You make the connection.