Americans and Germans?

[andrewjonathon]

Michael,

I am a Canadian currently living in the US and here are some of my thoughts.

First, I will say that I am disappointed by the decision of my fellow Canadians on this issue (strongly opposed to the war)because the main reason I hear is that the United Nations did not sanction the war. The UN is not "God" or even a moral institution. In almost every case that has required UN action, the UN has either done nothing or been forced, kicking and screaming to make a decision. For example, Rwanda - no action while 800,000 die, Croatia -lack of action, Bosnia - did nothing until thousands died. When it did take action it was so ineffective that Serbs removed thousands of Muslims to die from a "UN safehaven" and actually had the Dutch peacekeepers help with the process. Lets see, Kosovo obvious ethnic cleansing was taking place, but UN did nothing and finally NATO had to step in. East Timor - the UN did nothing until after thousands had died and the list goes on. The world complains about the "policeman" role the US plays but in reality with institutions like the UN, the world is better off having a policeman that will step in.

Lets face it we all benefit from the role the US plays and continues to play (including Germany). The biggest evidence of this is the TINY percent of GDP that most western countries (US excluded) allocate to military spending these days. Without the world security provided by the "world's 'hated' policeman" military spending would rise dramatically in most countries in order to survive against people like Saddam.

In regards to Mr Bush being too critical of Germany. While every country has a right to make their own decisions, I will say that in the last German general election, Chancellor Gerhard Schröder's anti-American comments went way over the line for any "friend" and Germany is fortunate that there hasn't been a stronger response from America. I think Germany is lucky that American citizen's don't pay more attention to overseas politics as most are not aware of the nasty rhetoric that was going on.

At the end of the day, I think the world is better off with friends like the US than friends like Saddam and so my support is with President George Bush.

[Anonymous]

Andrew, you are absolutely correct about the UN. It is a joke, nothing more than a farcical, powerless debating society that will be consigned to the trash-bags of history along with the League of Nations. What is the point of having a ‘UNITED’ Nations, when member states possessing a veto can simply use them to protect their own commercial interests? In the entire history of the UN, there have been only 3 occasions when force has been sanctioned and agreed by the UN Council. This is a joke.

This war seems to have been billed by certain left-wing elements as a US / British only action, but don’t forget that it was the UN that first said Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, not the US. Those who object to the war on the basis of it being ‘illegal’ i.e. with no UN backing, have short memories. They forget that the Serbians were bombed when there was no UN sanction, as the Russians vetoed that too. I don’t seem to remember too much objection being kicked up back then.

The US is the richest, most powerful nation on earth. Sometimes it doesn’t matter how you use the power, the simple fact that you have it creates jealousy and resentment. You become a target of hate. In the same way that whenever there’s a riot, it always seems to be the Police who end up as the target of the anger, when all they’re trying to do is restore the peace. In the same way, this war seems to have been viewed by the cynical anti-war mob as a commercial, oil-driven invasion, like some 19th Century colonial land-grab. Ironically enough, the people that accuse the Bush administration of starting a war for Oil seem to ignore the fact that the only reason the French and Russians vetoed military action was to protect their own commercial contracts, with both nations also being owed huge amounts from Iraq in unpaid debts. Also, Michael Dresden accuses the US of double-standards, having previously supported Saddam in the Iran-Iraq war and sold him arms. He seems to ignore the fact that most of Saddam Hussein’s weapons came not from the US, but from France. The French even built Saddam Hussein a nuclear development plant back in the ‘70’s, and would have developed a nuclear weapon by now, had the Israelis not destroyed it back in 1981.

Ironically enough, when the dust has settled on this war, the US will have the upper hand over the French. The value of French exports to the US greatly exceeds that in the other direction, so it would be easy for the US to get their own back on the French with a few tariffs here and there.

We shall see……

The Phantom

[Anonymous]

You guys are certainly right about the UN, I mean, they have passed resolution after resolution against Israel about her abuses but does anyone do anything about it? Heck no. And does Israel give a big camel's do-do about what the world thinks? Again, no. If a small country like that with absolutely no natural resources can spit in the world's eye, I say we do the same thing and kiss the UN goodbye.
Pop

[Anonymous]

One more funny joke on France.I'm laugthing
Get this one :
Hello,
Just a simple hello from the old Europe.(yes, old Europe , how old are you USA?)
It is funny to read your speaks about things that most of you can't even really understand.
Who all are you to speak as American ?
You all forgot that Europe 300 years ago built America. By the way the people of these days slaugthered all the natives American. How many of you are greatgrandson of Europeen?
You all forgot that you won your independance to the English with the help of the Frenchs.
You all forgot that the Lady of Liberty standing as the symbol of your country was offered by France.
You all forgot how our country was hurted this lastcentury (WW1 WW2), but you are so proud to tell about the Gi's sacrifices that gave their life for our freedom (thanks )
You don't know , that almost 1 of 3 familly lost a parent during the last war.
You all forgot what the Gi's coming back from Normandy told you about his pal dying in is arms, about the horror of the war, the blood spilled...
You all forgot that we paid the Marshall plan.
And You even ask yourself why most of us are against another war?.
How can you support this once more ?
I guess you forgot to many things to blame us because you think (and believe me you're wrong) that we have forgotten...
I don't give a f**k about Saddam.I do personaly think that there are ten thousands way to get rid of this deadly clown (by the way you can see that he is not the only tyran on this small planet..)
You all forgot that by acting this way Bush gets closer to Saddam than ever.
You even all forgot the reasons you are leading this war. Don't you?

It scares me.

4 things to end:
-Sorry , English is not my native langage ...;)
-I've nothing against to all of you , (i don't know you ) i'm just asking myself on how could you speak about people that you don't talk with? Freedom of speech ? maybe...Don't you think it's better to have the 2 sides of the story to have an opinion?
-Even if i'am against this war ( and the others too) i really do support the Boys engaged there (it's not a good solution , but they are on the right side)
-I could speak more about all of this, but i just remember that we are on a train forum so , let's speak about trains..do you think that they trains in Irak .(only kidding...;)))

Vincent, from France of course...

[Anonymous]

I wouldn't mind the politicking in this forum so such if it didn't keep turning into a name calling session. Though I disagree with ED on the war and hope he will re-consider in the better light of future hindsight, he seems to be a fine man, with the good sense to make a good life for his family.

Now Rick, it is these personal attacks that are drivel. I am weary of them. But I have noticed where most the political negativity has been comming from in the last ten years or so. Some of you are giving "Liberalism" a bad name!

But we're on to ya! If only the rest of us can just keep in focus the fact that these America haters and Bush haters are only posing as liberal! They make a mockery of liberal tradition in their extreme hatred of those with more consevative values than themselves. I believe they are more interested in raw partisan power than they are in any ideal or morality.

Buy the way, if your not with us, and your not against us, just how would you define yourself in light of murderous butchers in the world vowing our destruction. Would you compromise - let them kill only half of us. Or maybe you would happily pretend to convert to their brand of Islam. Or halfway convert. Or maybe we could compromise with them and let them impose a sort of half democracy - half religious tyranny on the whole world. I could keep going, but such compromise is already obviously silly. So which is to be - one or the other! With us - or against us!

We may debate about whether we want to go to war - now or later, on their soil or our own, or to just give up our way of life. But sooner or later, a stand will be forced upon us. War has been and will again be imposed upon us regardless of our debates or personal opinions.

I personnaly would prefer that America not be the world's policeman. I don't think it is practical, and the use of force is always morally questionable. Moreover, I question why we should even give a hoot about the rest of the world enough to want to bother.

But on the other hand, can we morally and righteously stand by and let whole peoples of the world be tyranized, tortured, and murdered by genocidal butchers, when we have the power to prevent it.

This moral dilemma is stark, almost as stark as war itself. There is room for honest thought on both sides.

Bytheway, it is our tendancy to answer this dilemma with opposition to evil that has earned us the hatred of the evil doers.

We elect presidents and representatives to make these decisions for us, and allow them access to the worldly facts needed to make an honest decision - facts that the general population could never know about until it was too late.

I am willing to allow those we elect to make war and peace decisions so long as they do it constitutionally (they did - in this case). I will withhold my judgement of them until I have the better light of hindsight to guide me. I hope all Americans will.

RmC

[edblysard]

Hi RmC,
Kinda wondering , is RmC your initals, or a private pun or code? No offense, just nosey.
And we do agree on something, we both agree to disagree, which is what makes this country so unique. Still not sure we were justified in this, but its a little too late to really worry about it. And yes, it is a moral delimma, stay out of some other countries business, when we havent been attacked, or asked to intervene, or step in and put a end to such horrors. Its the same old problem, whats legal and whats moral sometimes dont equate. Just because it right dosnt make it legal, and just because its legal dosnt allways make it right.
We could argue the moral and legal aspect of this war all day, and half the night, but the fact is we are there, we won, and my main intent was to support the kids who went there, as our soliders, airmen and sailors, and have to return to a country that isnt completly behind their actions, or victories. Thats part of serving in the armed services, when the president says go, you go, regardless of how you feel about it, and you do the bast job you can, with honor and valor and duty your main goal. I dont agree with this war, but all the kids and their leaders have my respect for having gone and done such a hard thing. And I reconize one special fact. This is one of the few places in the world where I can post my feelings on a public forum, and not worry about reprisals from whatever party is in power.
Only in America!
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[edblysard]

Vincent,
No, we did not forget. But I doubt your country would even exsist today if not for all those GIs. Mien Fuher almost won. I dont remember my dad telling me about the LSTs full of french troops he took to the beach at normandy. Funny, I cant seem to find any reference to their being a platoon of french soliders there. But I do remember the french did own a little part of america, something called louisiana...where all the native americans were also slaughtered, or killed by the smallpox, syphillis and other lovely european gifts brought over.
By the way, what would have happened if Saddam, or Ole Binnie had hijacked the Concord, and flown it into the Eiffle Tower, and then dumped a nice load of anthrax into the water supply of Paris? Who would you have called on to help you? Or would you have tried to solve the problem by selling him more tanks and french built airplanes? Maybe send him some crossiants and caviar and a bottle of that horse pee your guys call wine?
You and yours do owe us a big debt. We kicked butt all the way across your country, fighting on land that you owned, to save your butt and your country, and we drove the invaders out of your country and back to the place they belonged. And your thanks has been to spit on us every chance you get, to act as if living in a country thats "old" somehow makes you better.
Yeah, and its still here, 60 years after we newcomers beat the *** for you, and picked you up, wiped your nose and your butt for you, patted you on the head, and told you its ok now, you can go back to telling us how much better your are than us. We won it for you, 11000 of our kids died on your beaches, then thousands fought all the way across your country, dieing the whole way. So sorry you had to pay for the Marshal plan, but I guess you expected all of that for free, after all, you havent been able to defend yourselves for all thoses years you speak of. Except for your Emperor Napolen, who only tried to conqure the world, but then he was french, so that makes it all right. Odd, but didnt he lose also, at a place called Waterloo, to those people who later helped drive another invader out of you country. Bet you thanked them as well as you thanked us. Clue you in on something.
Your entire country could fit inside my state, and I can promise you this, next time someone invades your arrogant, self centered, smug and generaly useless country, your can bet the farm that a whole bunch of good ole boy cowboys from Texas will be there to kick their butts out for you, again.
Havent notice your country doing a thing to help anyone else, any where in the world, in the last century. Yet you claim to have other solutions. Well, where were you? Doing what you seem to do best, waiting on someone else to do the work, so you can complain about how bad we did it, and how you would have done it better.
Know what? how about you, and the rest of the limp wristed paris ites go have a cup of that crap you call coffee at one of your trendy cafe's, while the men fini***he job you were too scared to do.
Any body know how to say kiss my butt in french?
Ed

[Anonymous]

Hope I never meet you in a dark ally!

[Anonymous]

Yeh but apparently in the good ole US of A you can get arrested for watching a train. Go figer!!!

[edblysard]

Wappaw,
If you did, I would be the guy with the switchmans lantren, and I would lend it to you so you could see. I was in Vincents country, I have walked in the little towns where every wall, every building, every tree had bullet holes in them. I know how much that war cost his fellow country men, because my dad was right there, bringing his fellow countrymen to their rescue. I got a tour of a death camp, so now I know there really are monsters in this world, and most of them look just like humans. I was in Japan, in Nagasaki and Hiroshima, and visited the memorial and museum in the latter. Yes, it really did burn peoples shadows into the sidewalks and onto the sides of buildings. So whos the monster, the guy in the gray trenchcoat with the ugly little mustache, or the guy in the dapper suit who said drop them bombs? It all depends on where your standing, here in Houston, with my wife and kids asleep in the next room, or there in Hiroshima, looking at a little kids shadow on the sidewalk, put there 60 years ago by my country. Theres no way around it, war sucks, weather your the invader or the defender. But the alternative could be worst. The monsters just might win the next time.
So if you are going to wage war, make sure it a just cause your fighting for. And if someone comes to your aid, and sends 11000 of their kids to die on your beaches for your country, then you should wrap your arms around their legs and kiss their feet, and if they leave the bodies of their 11000 kids in your care, in your country, it should be one of the most holy and treasured places in your land. I didnt notice too many of Vincents country men telling us to go home, they would take care of the *** themselve, nor did I notice where they refused the billions of tons of wheat, and other food we sent them after. And they really didnt seem to mind when SAC, and the boomers of the US Navy kept the Russians in Russia for them. But they never seem to have a problem telling us what trash we are, and how wrong we are, when I dont see them doing a thing to stop all the horrors they complain about. They dont mind calling the world's policeman when they need him, but dont mind telling him what a jerk he is when they dont need him.
Apparently I come across as a big time Hawk, but Vincent didnt read all of my post, which was written in english, (silly me, to write in english on a american forum) that I didnt, and still dont agree with our presence in Iraq. They didnt directly attack us. I dont think we should have attacked them. I belive our armed services should be a defenseive tool, not a political device to force any other country to follow our lead. But thats a moot point now, so I will stand there, and salute those who return, helping them in any way I can. By the way, you ought to ask Jenny about the rules in Texas, she got her copy today.
Stay Frosty, and out of dark allys, you never know whos in them..
Ed

[Anonymous]

Ed,

That was great!!! I don't suppose we can replace the Statue of Liberty's torch with a middle finger. It faces france. After all their anti-American rhetoric, now they want a part in rebuilding and forming a new government in Iraq. The only thing france seems to be concerned about is the franc. How in the world are they a permanent member of the UN Security Council when they are afraid of their own shadow?

But they will sell arms to anyone if the price is right. Go figure.

Here's a list of french war heroes:

1.
2.
3.
4. You get the idea.

[edblysard]

What Vincent didnt mention, or dosnt know, is that france didnt "give" us the statue. They guy who designed it had to come here, america, to raise funds. We donated over a million dollars towards her construction. And it wasnt the french goverment who thought up the idea in the first place, it was a lone sculptor's dream to celebrate the fact that both countries were democratic republics, in a time when republics were being replaced by empires. Americans even paid to ship it over here, and american steelworkers put it together.
And france as a part of the new Iraq?
Yeah, I can really see a bunch of Kurds and Shite Muslims sitting there, sipping champange and eating fish eggs on little crackers, watching a chorus line doing the can-can, which seems to be about the only thing france can really claim to have though up on its own. Still flashing their butts at the world.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[edblysard]

Forgot to mention, if you hang your bootie out to the world long enought, guess what happens?
Some cowboy comes along and plants his boot in it.
Still Frosty, I think.
Ed

[Anonymous]

Let us not forget the Vichy government that some french created during the Nazi occupation of france. The french sold so many of their own down the river to save some of their own skins. I will applaud those who helped in the underground. Can you still get bratwurst in Paris?

[Anonymous]

Well said Ed,
I think that you didn't understand what i meant (normal , i'm French...)
I 'd like to tell you how true is your answer, but i can't .You only think that we forgot your help , and the deads Gi's... Thats the origin of the problem. Can't you understand simply that we desagree with the war? it's simple to understand. Stay cool , relax , and think instead of beeing so rude and impolite. If you only act this way when you desagree with someone else , i didn't think that America is a so cool place, full of so clever people.
It's easy to say we are cowards. I never thought there was only cows living in Texas, but you do think there's only cowards leaving in France ? who's wrong ?
I guess you are true when you talk about America thinking " best of the world..." and so on , you're right : you're getting alone.
You're are destroying all what you're parents built, all what the Gi's gave their life for.
For the " kiss my butt " , do you think that it as a really great importance ?
To the other people of this forum , and as i won't write anything more on this forum (it's useless, deseperatly useless) and it's not the place (talking about train no ?), thank you ( too you Ed too), i've learned many things about history and how some of you could be narrow minded (thanks , there not so many). For the other who told jokes about French , they certainly don't know that most of them came from France and was dedicated to Italians.
History repeats.
Despite this i still keep my respect for all of you. I think I can do this.
Thanks Guys, may all of us live in peace, in this world or in a dark alley, or even in a field surrounded by cows.
Vincent

[jsanchez]

Qustion:What do you call Germany, France and Russia?

Answer: The axis of WEASEL.

[edblysard]

Wow, I guess "I do not agree with our presence in Iraq" somehow dosnt translate into french, or somehow means "lets nuke em" in latin?
Yup, we got cows in Texas. And peppers hot enough to start a fire all on their own. And Fort Hood, Fort Sam Houston, Randolph Air Force Base, Kelly Air Force Base, Ellington Field, and about ten other training grounds for all the GIs and Airmen who gave their life for a idea, and did so on the soil of your country.
Have you been to Texas?
I ask, because I have been to your country. I know what devestation and horrors your country went through. And even after all of that, you guys still havent learned that some people cant be bargined with, no matter what you do.
As for rude and narrow minded, I supposed so, after all, theres nothing here but cowboys and cows.(we keep the oil wells and cows in the back yard, its rude to have them out front) We dont raise sheep in Texas, we realize that skill belongs in Europe, sorta reflects you guys attitude, you know, herd together and run.
And your right, history repeats itself.
A monster took over a country that couldnt defend its self, gassed over half of a certain group in the population, threatened to kill all the rest if they didnt bow down to him, and then blackmailed the rest of the world.
Sound familar? It should, to you of all people.
So what did the french do, fight him? Join with others and try to oust him? No, even after everyone realized he was killing that many people, and that he really was a monster, you guys kept selling him munitions, and the chemicals he used to make his posions.
So the rest of the world asked us to take care of him for them.
We did, and now you condemn us for having done so. Guess we wernt cultured enought about it?
Guess you didnt see or here about the protest going on here? No, we are not "the best of the world". But we dont hide behind others, shouting insults at our attackers, all the while comdeming the person we are hiding behind.
Yup, we are a rude bunch, after all, weve only been Americans for 227 years, unlike the french, you have been arrogant for a thousand years or so, and have had a lot of practice at getting others to fight your wars for you. By the way, you have the right to disagree with me, my country's constitution guarantees you the right to say kiss my butt, any time you want to, in english and french. No, I am not narrow minded, I just dont like people mis-quoting history to make a point. Yup, I dont like women with hairy armpits, high priced wine that taste like ripple, fish eggs on toast, or interior decoraters with a lisp. Yes, I do like cute blondes,with clean armpits and shaved legs, fields full of cows, a good cup of coffee, and the right to speak my mind, paid for by the blood of soldiers and sailors who died defending the concept that you, me, and all the narrow minded people who dont agree with you have the right to express their views in public, with no fear. Go to normandy, stand in the cemetery, and just look at all the grave markers. Then walk over to the cliff, and look down. If you got em, your cajones should suck right on up there. I dont think I would have had the guts to even come close to that place, no matter what the cause. Then turn around and look at the cemetery again. They died so you could insult us on a computer forum, or in print, on in person, if you ever get over here.
Next time your lost in a dark ally, or in a field of cows, call on the Americans, we got laterens and cowboys, lot of them, and gladly send them where they are needed.
You realize peace, and freedom, isnt free?
Ed

[foamer4000]

Ed
I have been thinking all day on how to reply to Vince. It is hard to get thru to an arrogant, rude individual with a closed mind. I have a great distate for people who undermine the United nations, and then complain when we have to proceed to the next level. The sanctions in Iroc could be in place for the next thousand years, and Sadam's family would still be in power. I am not for war. I do not like American soldiers to become heros by death. The fact is the world has changed. The monsters will not come like Stallin or Hitler. They will come as cowards with biological or nuclear weapons. A small team will inflict damage, never revealing who or why they are doing it. The rules changed before 911. Remeber the Cole? The first trade center bombing? How about all of the soldiers who have died in terrorist attacks? WE HAVE BEEN ATTACKED FIRST. It would be nice if we could turn a blind eye to the world. We can not. America is a representation of the entire world. We all live here becouse it is a better place. America is not perfect. America tries its best to improve itself over time. In the last 227 years every empire has made mistakes. Americans try to learn from them, and help when we can. Ask an Iraci woman what she thinks today. Her family will no longer be at risk from the Iraci regime. Things may get a little worse before they get better.

Vince and Ed
I support this war. I agree with president Bush. It take real courage to go against France, Germany, Russia, among some of Americas own.
Bush will be in power for no more than Eight years. This is not the start of Bush ruleing the world. Believe me, If Bush can not support his claims, he will be out of office in less than four. Myself and millions of others will see to that!
David

[edblysard]

David,
First, I appoligize if I offended you. But I have a distain for those who do nothing, yet critique everyone else. Pretty much, if you cant run with the big dogs, stay on the porch.
I have come to feel the UN is no longer able to influence the world we live in. And yes, the monsters now come in all shapes and sizes.
But I also agree with, and support the rules of war that all nations agreed to. Sure, the terrorist dont play by the rules, thats why its called terror, instead of war. Sounds silly, to disect it that way, but, if we allow the acts of terrorist to change the way we, as a country, view the rest of the world, and allow them to force us to abandon the rules we expected the rest of the world to follow, then we have become as base and low as they are. Sorry, but suffering acts of terror are part of living in a free society. So are presidental assinations, robbery and drunk drivers and road rage, its all part of the deal. The alternative is to live like the rest of the world, hunkered down in our own little hole, waiting for the other side to attack. Should Americans start walking around our cities with M16s slung over their shoulders?
God, I hope not.
Attacking another country, because one felt threatened, was the trademark of others, not America. We unleashed our military might, but only when openly attacked. No, terrorist attacks and the cowards who commit them are not new to America.
Do I think Saddam needed to go, you bet. But I think the Iraqies should have been the ones to ask for our assistance in overthrowing him. Now, they have no choice, its either his regime, or our version of a free Iraq.
But the whole point I was attempting to make is that its too late to make up our minds, its a done deal. So now, instead of spitting on the kids coming home, welcome them as the brave soliders they are. As for Vincent, well, I would suggest that, next time he decides to tell someone what they and their country does is wrong, he should visit and live in that country, instead of relying on the junk you see on TV or in the papers. See for himself how and what America is really all about, then make up his mind as to what and who we are. Once he has done that, then he is free to tell all of us how wrong we are, it is, after all, one of the very rights those kids at Normandy died for.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[foamer4000]

Ed
I am not offended by you. I am offended by the French and Vincent's ignorance. I looked forward to reading your reply. You have enough knowledge and life experience to give a good assesment of the situation. I see your point on not invadeing another country unless provoked. In this situation I belive Busch made the right call. Busch tried diplomatic ties, He stood up infront of the world and gave Saddam an ultimatum. Busch told Iraq what he had to do to avoid war. He did not resort to haveing someone blow themselves up on Iraq soil to prove his point. I belive Busch knows he only has one tearm to deal with this. Maybe thats why he is a little impatient. Saddam had his people so terrified they could not ask for help. Saddam would have killed anyone who tried. I would like to believe that our leaders are acting on more information than the general public has. As for the troops. I have nothing but the upmost respect for them. They have put their families and personal desires on hold to do this. They are the ones who are making the sacrafice for freedom! They will be in Iraq for a long time, and some of them will not come home alive. I owe these boys and girls, men and women a great deal. (along with every other soldier to fight for the United States, Including the ones sent to Vietnam) These soldiers have made it able for me to enjoy the fruits of a free society. The French owe the boys who died in Normandy a great deal more. The French truely have forgotten.
Ed, I hope it is you that I meet in a dark alley, I may need a lantern.
David

[foamer4000]

Ed
I am not offended by you. I am offended by the French and Vincent's ignorance. I looked forward to reading your reply. You have enough knowledge and life experience to give a good assesment of the situation. I see your point on not invadeing another country unless provoked. In this situation I belive Busch made the right call. Busch tried diplomatic ties, He stood up infront of the world and gave Saddam an ultimatum. Busch told Iraq what he had to do to avoid war. He did not resort to haveing someone blow themselves up on Iraq soil to prove his point. I belive Busch knows he only has one tearm to deal with this. Maybe thats why he is a little impatient. Saddam had his people so terrified they could not ask for help. Saddam would have killed anyone who tried. I would like to believe that our leaders are acting on more information than the general public has. As for the troops. I have nothing but the upmost respect for them. They have put their families and personal desires on hold to do this. They are the ones who are making the sacrafice for freedom! They will be in Iraq for a long time, and some of them will not come home alive. I owe these boys and girls, men and women a great deal. (along with every other soldier to fight for the United States, Including the ones sent to Vietnam) These soldiers have made it able for me to enjoy the fruits of a free society. The French owe the boys who died in Normandy a great deal more. The French truely have forgotten.
Ed, I hope it is you that I meet in a dark alley, I may need a lantern.
David

[Anonymous]

I agree. Now the french want a part in rebuilding Iraq, Russia's President Putin is saying that we've failed in our objectives in Iraq. However, I've heard nothing from the Germans. Perhaps they know the score--they may want to fix relations before they spout off like Chirac and Putin.

[Anonymous]

Vincent,

Chirac est un ver

[edblysard]

Hi David.
Man, I hope your right on the additional information not released to the public, but I just have this nagging feeling that if they did have anything else, they would have aired it, to gather public support.
As for Vincent, he didnt sound like he was much over twenty or so, and I remember when I was that young, bullet proof and all knowing. I doubt the French even teach much about WWII in their schools, much less about the GIs who died there.
My Dad was still in the Navy when we were there, and any time we went anywhere, the looks people gave him, and his uniform, made me realize most of the generation born after the end of the war had no clue. In fact, I am quite sure they were taught that they, the french, turned the tide in that war. Almost to a person, they were a smug and somewhat arrogant lot.
And I found it hard to stay inside a shop or store with more than two or three of them, seems they use soap and water as often as they used their manners, every once in a while.
Heres something that sounds odd, on the face of it.
The Russians were more friendly, and better host,
than the french. They showed a willingness to exchanged ideas and concepts that flatly surprised me, everything I had read and been told about them was somewhat jaded. Of coures, they have, or had, almost nothing, no food, no "new" clothing, and almost no automobiles. That alone showed me how much we have in this country, where almost everyone of us owns at least one car, there, only "important" people had cars, everyone else rode the subway, trains, or walked and rode bicycles. To show you how closed and shut off their socieity is, I traded a roll of lifesavers to a russian locomotive engineer for his railroad watch. He had never even seen lifesavers, kept watching me as I was eating them, you could tell he wanted one, but didnt know how or was to embarrased to ask for one.
I offered him one, butterscotch, and the look on his face would have made the candy company a million dollar add campain. He took out his watch, and through our "guide", explained he wanted to trade for the rest of the roll, he wanted to take it home to his kids. I had a whole box of them back at our hotel, and a new roll in my jacket, so I gave it to him, tried to tell him to keep the watch, (I was afraid he would get in trouble for losing it, considering who our "guide" worked for) but he insisted, told me it was ok, the watch never worked right anyway. He was right, the thing never keeps time, ever. But imagine living somewhere where a simple roll of candy is so unique and unusal.
So I look back at the french, who have so much, paid for by so many of our kids, who treated me and my dad as if we were trash, and the russians, who have so little, and treated us as if we were favored kin, giving us the best they had in their homes and at their tables, even though our countries were each other's enemy.
Yeah, the french forgot, or are just too arrogant to admit what a debt they owe us, and the russians, who owe us nothing, are hungry for the freedomes our kids died for in france.
So I know jow lucky I really am, not only to live in America, but to live in Texas!!
And David, if we ever meet, I hope its not in a dark ally, but trackside, in broad daylight, so we both can enjoy the sight and sound of a train!
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Anonymous]

Hello Ed,

That's my initials, but I don't get the pun -enlighten me.

Anyway, I was one of those sailors who had to come home from Vietnam only to be scorned. I guess I am still kinda touchy about that.

Especially since at least three times I participated in major offensives in Vietnam where we were victorious in battle, at the cost of thousands of lives, only to have the politicians change their minds after the fact, yielding it all back to the enemy.

As the war in Vietnam wore on, we too began to wonder why we were there - Why all this bloodshed. It seemed for nothing, and that made the horror of war all the more unbearable.

But as you say, our liberties absolutely depend upon the strict obediance and loyalty of the military to civilian authority. Unfortunately, we can't tell that to the tens of millions of Southeast Asians who were exterminated after we lost the war. That's why all the "boat people" eventually had to flee for their very lives.

After one of these campaigns, we got word of the rioters in Berkeley and other places who used classic military tactics against the police and national guard. We really wondered how they knew such tactics, and began to wonder if the war was really at home and Vietnam a mere diversion. At least we eventually began to understand there was real division back home. Obviously, our politicians had failed in their leadership role before the American people.

OR - in our free and open society, was there an organized campaign of opposition directed from abroad. One would like to think not, but what better way defeat an opponent in a war you might not win militarily. Our enemies would be remiss if they didn't at least try. These efforts are usually referred to as dis-information and progaganda wars. The Soviets were very good at it. We have historically done very poorly.

In any event, I too do not wish any of our service men and women to have to endure that again. War is horrible enough all by itself. The real immorality of the Vietnam war was that the politicians vascilated again and again, making a mockery of the loss of vietnamese lives and the supreme sacrifices made by many of my friends.

Unfortunately, we see some of this again. Congress voted overwhelmingly for this war. Then many of them "changed their minds" after the troops were sent into battle. It is hard for me to contain my hostility towards such "Turncoats".

If they did not want war they should have voted NO last October - and not sent our sons and daughters into battle in the first place.

Anyway, since they WERE sent into battle, the only acceptable end is victory, and hopefully very quickly.

Thanx Ed, for letting me vent.

Not yet Frosty, but getin there!
RmC

[edblysard]

Just wondering about the Capital, lower case, then Capital again.
And yeah, I can understand how you would feel about Vietnam, my dad used to say, "if you are going to engage in a police action, or an advisority action, then send cops and advisors.
If you'r going to wage war, send the military.
But only send them if you plan to win."
Vietnam ultimatly caused his brother to muster out of the Air Force, he couldnt tolerate taking kids in, and bringing bodies home.
Dad stayed in another 10 years, but felt it no longer stood for the values he had grown up with.
Keep working on the Frosty, its a blissful state of mind...
Ed

[Anonymous]

Ed,

How could they air this information without the risk of giving away how they got it, or from whom. That kind of info in enemy hands would allow them to prevent our learning anything. And those that help us get it would be instantly dead.

Those under cover guys and special forces in Iraq are also heroes, and that goes also for the Iraqi patriots who are our sources. They deserve our respect too. And our protection by not telling everything we know right away.

I too would prefer that we not be the world's policeman, but to remain free ourselves, we would then have to entirely close our borders and become isolationists. On the other hand, one great liberal professor of mine burned it into my mind and heart that no one is truely free while anyone in the world is enslaved.

Despite my relatively isolationist view, I for one will hold judgement until we can be told more. I do hope that does not take too long.

Gettin Frosty
RmC

[foamer4000]

Hi Ed.
The French are the smelly poaster children of arrogance! I saw on the news today that the American boycot of French products is hurting them. They have changed their tune completly now. They want to take part in the rebuilding of Iraq. They want to get their hands on as much oil as possible! Too bad they do not remember the boys who kept German from becoming the national language.
I have heard from other people that the Russians are very good people, and very poor. I hope things are better for them now after the fall of the U.S.S.R.
I would like to meet in the daylight also, a tour of your GP-15's would be nice. We are lucky to live in the states!
David

[edblysard]

Hey, RmC,
I am quite sure our goverment had more inside intelligence that they will ever make public, I understand the reason for it, and agree. I am also sure that BP petroleum, Dutch Royal Shell. Mobil/Exxon and Conoco also have sources deep with in. And I dont mind the US being the worlds policeman. What I do mind is most of the rest of the world sitting around, doing nothing but complaining about a problem, then calling us to fix it, and then complaining even louder, and condemning us for being the policemen they asked us to be.
And as for being a isolationist, well, thats you choice, but I am only one generation off the boat, so I am kinda biased, heck, it turns out even the "native" americans were aisan immigrants.
I do agree with Teddy Rosevelts "walk softly, but carry a big stick" statement, but I lean towards the walk softly part. Regardless of what inside info, or covert intelligence the administration may have, in the end, they will have to publicly justify this war, not only to the world, but to the folks here. Its going to be really bad pr if, after declaring war on Saddam for having wepons of mass destruction, and those weapons being viewed as a threat to the worlds peace and safety, no one finds the nukes or stashes of biological weapons inside the country.
If just being a threat, or having nuclear weapons is justification for us to wage war, we best get after the Koreans, China, and France, although that last one ought to go quicker that the current one, after all, the Iraqis fought back.
Although I like Norman Rockwells version of America, and there is a lot of truth in his work, I realize nothing is as cut and dried as we would perfer, and rarely do things turn out as it appeared they would.
I dont know, maybe I am wrong, but I do trust my instincts, alot, and as silly as that may sound, something about all of this raises the hairs on the nape of my neck, and runs goosebumps all over. It just dosnt "feel" right. Over simple, maybe, but thats how is feels.
Glad your getting..
Ed

[edblysard]

Hi David,
Any time you get to Houston, it 8900 Clinton Drive, across from the Port of Houstons Gate #8. I am the guy switching right under the tower, wed thru sun, 1500 to 2300,(3:00 pm till 11:00 pm) Even let you ride a bit, if you can stand being banged around a bit.
And yes, after having been a lot of places with my dad, and having seen how a lot of the world really lives, there aint no place like home,
God Bless Texas!
Stay Frosty,
Ed