What would the founding fathers think about this.

[vsmith]

Don't let Mookie find out you took the popper!

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

I could use some popcorn MMMmmmm popcorn.[:p]

Dan I give up with this, its like talking to a tree![;)]

Big Boy. I dont see how any justfication for long distance HSR can be made in the US, the airlines do have a definite advantage if they can cross the country at 500mph and the best we could likely get is 150-170mph tops with rail. I say that due to the topography issues, weather conditions could be another issue. Japans system goes thru some mountains and passes that make the wesern US look tame, of course they do it by massive tunneling and bridgeworks to maintain the straightest ROWs and it does so even is some terrible winter weather. But the shorter routes, Chicago to St Louis, LA to Sacramento, could be very competitve with airlines when the airport lag is factored in.

Vic, you and I are pretty much on the same page here. I was just trying to use few words. I agree for short regional runs the time is comparable to air travel. The hangup is the economics, because who want's to pick up the infrastructure tab? There has been talk of Twin Cities to Chicago, but that's all it is talk.

As for the founding fathers, high speed to them was 10 MPH. [swg]

[vsmith]

I personally feel nothing really concrete will happen until we get closer to saturation on the airport capacity. thats whe the airports can physically no longer support additional landings and takeoffs past a fixed number. Many airports are very close to this now.

Once it gets to the point where its becomes so inconvenient to take the plane, we'll see a screaming demand for HSR. Once business travelers are grounded there will be a fast mobilization, no matter who pays for it, it will happen along these close urban pathways.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Got bad news for you Vic, the Twin Cities airport just opened a new runway last month. They'll just work around it. Throwing down a new patch of concrete is cheaper than building a rail line, even if they have to condemn adjacent properties to do it, which they did.

I'm afraid you are a little too optimistic on HSR prospects.

[Anonymous]

Wouldn't it be a lot cheaper to expand airports than build a whole new infrastructure? Don't get me wrong; I am not against a HSL, I am just thinking logically. The closer the two destinations, the more the car becomes the competition, it is going to have to be cheaper, or at least competitive, with cars. Are the only planned (used) high speed trains electric?

As I was saying before you used your Weapons of Mass Disruption[:D]
Who owns the median to a freeway, is it federal, or state? Does it really make sense fuel-wise to run freight that fast, don't a lot of railroads focus on fuel efficiency?

[Big_Boy_4005]

The answer to the median is the state. They own the entire right of way. In the case of interstates and federal highways they get much of their funding from the federal government, but the state owns and maintains them.

[vsmith]

James
The trouble with expanding airport capacity is you cannot just add additional runways, you also have to add terminals, maintanence facilities, and parking capacity. This is OK for airports that were built on the outskirts of cities where there is land to expand. Its very expensive and complicated to expand an airport while still remaining operational.

But where the airport exists inside the metropolitan area it can be very dificult to expand an airport. Adjacent properties have to be bought and demolished to make room for the expansion, often thru Eminant Domain, against people who do not want to sell. This can lead to lenthy legal delays and that can result in it being many years before the airport can be expanded. In a couple of Japanese cities and in Hong Kong, instead of expanding the existing airports, they instead built new airports on artificial islands in the harbours where they could build as big as they needed.

BTW thats Weapons of Mass Deception, but lets go there anymore, its too hard to type and sit in this chair wearing the flamethower's tank.

[Anonymous]

Why not just build a new airport the on edge of town, and have two?
BTW: That's why I didn't bring them up, and don't carry a flame thrower.

[vsmith]

Ahh, quote...
"As I was saying before you used your Weapons of Mass Disruption"

How about an agreement that we both simply stop the snips like this and let it go, here and now.

Simple answer. NIMBY Not In My Back yard. The people who live near the proposed airport site will fight tooth and nail to prevent its construction and legal bind up any progress with legal challenges.

Most urban areas no longer have a defined Edge anymore but areas where the density just drops a bit before it starts rising again at the next nearest urban area, so its very very difficult to find a spot thats close enough to the major centers, and far enough out to find an arae large enough to build it.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Lotus098

Why not just build a new airport the on edge of town, and have two?
BTW: That's why I didn't bring them up, and don't carry a flame thrower.

DIA..... Denver International Airport. It has been done, though they closed the old one, since the new one is very expandable. There was talk of doing that in the Twin Cities 10 years ago, but it was dropped in favor of the new runway I mentioned earlier.

NYC shares 3 airports. Washington DC 2 airports. The LA area, we'll have to ask Vic, but at least 2.

By the way James, that stuff they are teaching you at home from those books is scary. Don't believe everything you read. You need more work on your history, and less on your politics.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Vic, the Twin Cities airport has been doing all of those things for years within their confined space. With Northwest's bankruptcy, some of the pressure may be off temporarily, as some flights have been canceled. Eventually we will get back to pre bankruptcy flight levels, then surpass them.

Now that this runway is done, I expect we will hear the move the airport thing again, as people look to the future. You're right about the NIMBYS, and the edges of large cities.

[Anonymous]

Allright, smarty. With the possible exception of the German remark, what did I say that was factually incorrect? You might like to know I aced history class.

vsmith,

If you want to stop, why did you edit your post to include it?

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

QUOTE: Originally posted by Lotus098

Why not just build a new airport the on edge of town, and have two?
BTW: That's why I didn't bring them up, and don't carry a flame thrower.

DIA..... Denver International Airport. It has been done, though they closed the old one, since the new one is very expandable. There was talk of doing that in the Twin Cities 10 years ago, but it was dropped in favor of the new runway I mentioned earlier.

NYC shares 3 airports. Washington DC 2 airports. The LA area, we'll have to ask Vic, but at least 2.

By the way James, that stuff they are teaching you at home from those books is scary. Don't believe everything you read. You need more work on your history, and less on your politics.

LA?
LAX right on the coast, right in the metro area, pain in the %$^% to get to because of traffic. talk for a decade of expansion but no consensus due to NIMBY, and space restrictions. Persoanlly I say build a new island or peninsula expansion into the Santa Monica Bay like they did in Hong Kong, It can be built as big as needed and not into the urban area

Burbank, they want to expand it and connect it with LAX via rail line, NIMBY's creating trouble even though the airports been there since before WW2

Ontario, this is a big airport thats currently under-utilized, also want to expand it, again with rail connect, again NIMBYs pissing about it, Irony is that if they did the expansion 10 years ago there wouldnt be all the new housing developments whining about the expansion.

Long Beach, smaller regional airport limited passenger capacity.

in the OC

John Wayne Airport. large regional airport, NIMBYs wont allow expansion or any planes large like 747s. would prefer to see airport go away entirely so they can enjoy quite afternoons in the jacuzzi. Of course that would just implode the freeway system but rational thought has been outlawed in the OC.

El Toro Marine Base was closed and would have made a good expansion airport to support John Wayne but greedy developers managed to buy the county board of directors with the promise of a "Great Park" instead, Of course latest plan in almost 90% developement 10% park. Again see above about rational thought.

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Lotus098

Allright, smarty. With the possible exception of the German remark, what did I say that was factually incorrect? You might like to know I aced history class.

vsmith,

If you want to stop, why did you edit your post to include it?

I didnt add it, it was the original post, but I then decided to answer your question by adding "Simple Answer" and there on.

The Simple Answer James, is that we BOTH have to agree that we will NEVER EVER agree about certain subjects and that BOTH of us will have to remember that if we are posting on the same subjects. I wont bring those issues again if you wont, and if you dont add the little snips like the "disruption" snip. I'll stop pointing them out,

If you make a clean start, so wilI I. I'm holding out the Olive Branch.....

[Big_Boy_4005]

Thanks Vic, Ontario and John Wayne were the ones I was thinking of in addition to LAX. A fast rail connection between them would be cool. Expanding off shore is a good idea.

James, it's just when you spout off the way you have in this topic, it's very easy to take shots at you. Calm down. In a battle of wits, it's not smart to bring a knife to a gun fight. [swg]

[Anonymous]

What if I buy ink by the barrel?

[Anonymous]

Last of my political commentary on this thread (hopefully):

James has provided reference for his take on WMD/Bush/Democrats.

vsmith has not.

Therefore, although you can "agree to disagree" about WMD/Bush/Democrats, what is undeniable is that the positions taken by vsmith et al are without a documentable basis, rather they are feelgood positions simply based on political slander of Bush. It is political postering, nothing more. You can disagree all you want about Bush's policies, but you cannot dimini***he man's intengrity and honesty without making a complete***of yourself.

And a word of advice for you Democrats: If you think you will take back the House or Senate soley via Bush-bashing, you will be sorely disappointed come Novemeber 2006. You guys better come up with some positive ideas to present to the American people. Personally, if the Democrats would just go back to the days of Scoop Jackson, Warren Magnuson, and Zell Miller, they might just get my vote.

BTW, Big Boy, it's more like you guys are bringing spitballs to a nukefest.

[Anonymous]

On the subject of HSR:

NIMBY factor - Using freeway medians where possible eliminates the NIMBY factor on those stretches.

Short haul vs long haul HSR - If your focus is passenger only HSR, then you are correct that long HSR makes no sense. If your focus is freight based HSR, then there are opportunities for all corridors, short, medium, and long. A freight based HSR system can carry megatons more than air freight, and can carry those megatons four or five times as fast as the current freight rail system. Therein lies the niche market: The costs of carrying megatons more of freight would be lower via HSR than my air freight, while what is at best a 5 day trip across the country via the hottest current TOFC becomes a two day trip via HSR.

The founding fathers would go all giddy over a nationwide HSR system.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Dave, James has not presented a quote newer than 3 years old. The situation and publicly known facts have changed since then, and much of the country feels that we were duped.

The current administration is very good at misrepresenting things to gain public support. Judging from the president's approval rating, people are catching on. Some people can just see through crap better than others.

The best thing about Bush is he can't be re-elected again. Thank God for term limits!!!

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

Last of my political commentary on this thread (hopefully):

James has provided reference for his take on WMD/Bush/Democrats.

vsmith has not.

Therefore, although you can "agree to disagree" about WMD/Bush/Democrats, what is undeniable is that the positions taken by vsmith et al are without a documentable basis, rather they are feelgood positions simply based on political slander of Bush. It is political postering, nothing more. You can disagree all you want about Bush's policies, but you cannot dimini***he man's intengrity and honesty without making a complete***of yourself.

And a word of advice for you Democrats: If you think you will take back the House or Senate soley via Bush-bashing, you will be sorely disappointed come Novemeber 2006. You guys better come up with some positive ideas to present to the American people. Personally, if the Democrats would just go back to the days of Scoop Jackson, Warren Magnuson, and Zell Miller, they might just get my vote.

BTW, Big Boy, it's more like you guys are bringing spitballs to a nukefest.

Jesus Christ! I'm trying to end this and you drop this? What is with you?

History will remember which one of us is correct, and we'll see who laughing in 06 till then I was ready to drop this subject then you go peeing into the cornflakes!

The reason I didnt post any supporting evidence is because I have a LIFE, and do not feel like Trawling the internet to find the supporting data.

SHEE-IT FutureModal, Guess you want to drive this topic right off the cliff again!

First you say behave, then you drop ***-balls!

Are you just trying to fire this up again after it looked like it might settle down?

Stop being an A$$hole!

BTW this is EXACTLY the reply I would expect from a Ditto-head Soviet-Republican follower.

F*ck this Noise! [:(!]
I hate Sheep!

[Big_Boy_4005]

Dave, you show your ignorance of HSR technology when you think that it is possible to have it follow interstate medians. Beside, in most metropolitan areas, any left over median space is quickly being paved over with additional traffic lanes.

Most freight doesn't need to travel at high speed, and because of the weight factor cannot be mixed with passenger traffic. HSR is only practical for passengers and maybe parcels, but the infrastructure cost does not justify it's construction.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

Dave, James has not presented a quote newer than 3 years old. The situation and publicly known facts have changed since then, and much of the country feels that we were duped.

The current administration is very good at misrepresenting things to gain public support. Judging from the president's approval rating, people are catching on. Some people can just see through crap better than others.

The best thing about Bush is he can't be re-elected again. Thank God for term limits!!!

You see, this is what I'm talking about. Your entire POV is based on fantasy, not fact.

What has changed from 3 years ago that provides new FACTUAL information regarding the reasons for the Iraq action? Nothing. However, there has been an ongoing slander campaign in which Democrats are trying to rewrite history to both (1) claim that Bush had information somehow unavailable to the Democrats regarding Iraq and WMD which countered the rational for going to war (but of course, when pressed for any documentation of this alleged counter info, they got nothin'), and (2) somehow claim that all along they were doubtful and suspicious of the intellegence information that made the case viable in the first place (when of course during the late 1990's it was the Democrats who were all over the place claiming Saddam had and would use WMD against the US - Didn't you see or read my reference to the Tim Russert interview of Teddy Kennedy?)

The president"s current approval rating does have connections to this propagation of fasle claims against the president, so your slander campaign is having the desired effect, at least for now. I for one believe that the majority of Americans, when and if given the truth about the Democrats slander campaign, will renew their collective faith in Bush. After all, the economy is rocking, we won the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and are well ahead of any timetable for establishing the new democracies in those countries, most of the Al Qaida leadership is either dead or captured, Bin Laden is probably wormfood by now, and most importantly of all, peoples in the Middle East are experiencing their first realistic chances at democracy and all the benefits that ensue.

If you have factual reference that the Bush Adminstration "misrepresented" anything, please provide the proof. Compared to Clinton, this administration has had a nearly spotless record when it comes to integrity and honesty.

[Big_Boy_4005]

I have better things to do than respond to that bunch of nonsense. Have a nice day.

[vsmith]

My daddy told me " Son, there two kind of people you can't argue with...a Fanatic and an Idiot"

I think I'll add "Certain Republican's" to that list....

I'll end my participation in this by quoting Edward R Morrow, world reknown journalist who was also accused of being a socialist and managed to inform the American Citizenry to what a complete nut-job Sen. Joe McCarthy was...

"Good Night and Good Luck"



edit so not to offend FREINDS here, I'm not angry at you guys....

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

My daddy told me " Son, there two kind of people you can't argue with...a Fanatic and an Idiot"

I think I'll add "Republican" to that list....

I'll end my participation in this by quoting Edward R Morrow, world reknown journalist who was also accused of being a socialist and managed to inform the American Citizenry to what a complete nut-job Sen. Joe McCarthy was...

"Good Night and Good Luck"

Hey now.....I've been known to vote republican......

your conservative, but moderate friend,
Dan

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

My daddy told me " Son, there two kind of people you can't argue with...a Fanatic and an Idiot"

I think I'll add "Republican" to that list....

I'll end my participation in this by quoting Edward R Morrow, world reknown journalist who was also accused of being a socialist and managed to inform the American Citizenry to what a complete nut-job Sen. Joe McCarthy was...

"Good Night and Good Luck"

Hey now.....I've been known to vote republican......

your conservative, but moderate friend,
Dan

Sorry Dan

That not aimed at you, nor to other members here. It was specific to one or so...

Comment revised in edit

The real shame of it is that I too have Repulican freinds and we get fine. Any way Dan, see you around on other topics. Aint coming back to this stinker, like talking to rocks, only rocks listen better.

[Anonymous]

I will be honest, and not address any more politics (unlike the vsmith). Notice who is calling people names, insulting people, and not giving any facts whatsoever. This usually stems from a weak argument, when someone knows there are beat, they start insulting people. It is the last resort. Simmer down, no flames please. I can see that if you refuse to see past the end of your nose, I won't open your eyes for you.
So:

[zardoz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal
Compared to Clinton, this administration has had a nearly spotless record when it comes to integrity and honesty.

[(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D]
[2c]

[zardoz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal
After all, the economy is rocking, we won the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and are well ahead of any timetable for establishing the new democracies in those countries

Sorry, I just cannot resist this any longer.

Economy is rocking? We WON the wars?

You've GOT TO BE KIDDING!!

I must be listening to the wrong radio stations, seeing the wrong tv stations, and reading the wrong newspapers.

So you want documentation about the democrats "smear" campaign? How about documenting your rather imaginative statements?!

[Anonymous]

Well we beat Saddam in the fastest time in history. The talliban no longer controls Afghanistan. Iraq is now free from the fear of a tyrannical dictator. We haven't bee attacked by terrorist again. Unemployment is lower than under Bill Clinton.
Ha Ha, Gas just dropped some more![:D]

IF THIS IS BAD YOU ARE A BIG, NO HUGE, NO GIANTIC, NO ENOUROUS, PESITMIST.