"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton What is certain is that the changes that have occured over the last two centuries makes those views moot.
QUOTE: …Many will argue that were it not for government expenditures to build infrastructure and develope technology our society would not have advanced as far as we have… … If you want to live in times like theirs, you are going to have to find a time machine or move to a present day third world country…
QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton The Anti Gates Swindles are the result of people not being able to differentiate between between style and substance. If all the younger people I know had such a cynical attitude, I would be looking for a nice third world country. Jay
QUOTE: You have missed the point entirely; it was these very principles that allowed society to get as far as it did. Assuming that history too is not moot. Let us take a look back even father into antiquity; back to the old Roman Republic. In 500 B.C. the inhabitants of Britain lived in primitive log huts with dirt floors. Along cam those old principles of capitalism and freedom, in the form of the Roman Republic, which our founding fathers had the wisdom to base our society on the same ideals. By 200A.D Roman civilization brought large tile roofed buildings with mosaic floors, plumbing, baths, glass windows, and central heating. But corruption was at work, the principles of old were declared moot. And so, the infamous Roman Empire was born, it could not last as the scolism seeped into it began to crumble. By 500 A.D the people were back to their log huts, and unsanitary conditions, as they had one thousand years earlier. A great book called Ancient Rome How it Affects You Today, by Richard J. Maybury, a history, and economics teacher, explains how history is repeating between Rome and the US. Part of his premise is that the Romans were on the verge of a industrial revolution, the one we hit in 1776, freedom is what got us to where we are today; out of our mud huts, and into our cars. To achieve, liberty should be our goal, not to live with their technology, but to live with their God inspired ideas.
QUOTE: Originally posted by erikthered By the way, early roads in the USA were, in many cases, privately owned- the owners paid for upkeep by charging tolls- thus the beginning of "toll roads". Erik
QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15 I think you're a bit wide of the mark here about the Roman Empire. It was not on the brink of an industrial revolution in the 5th century; if anything it had been in decline for the last century. The Germanictribes who conquered the Roman empire in Western Europe in the 5th century AD (and gave their names to the countries we now now, eg Angle-land = England, Franks - France) were able to do so because they had better swords than the Romans! Equally important though, they also had better ploughs. This meant the Angles and Saxons were able to farm areas of Britain that the Romano-Briton had not. Consequently the population of Britain increased in the 5th and 6th centuries whereas it had declined in the 4th. In due course the Vikings came too - they also had better swords (and ploughs!). Meanwhile in the Arab world lots of developments took place in sciences (astronomy, algebra and chemistry all come from Arabic words!). Even before the Crusades these sevelopments were starting to filter thru to the Christian world. As for the myth that people thought the world was flat - well the 13 th century English scholar Francis Bacon describes how to calculate the curvature of the Earth (and he refers to how a 3rd century AD Greek mathematician Ptolemy did so).
QUOTE: Getting back to economics and transport, if you go back to Adam Smith, you will find that he accepts that roads (and hence transport infrastructure) are a legitimate responsibility of government. As for the issue of susbidy, it has been shown time and time again that unprofiitable does not mean uneconomic as non users benefit from rail services. Then of course there;s also the issue of climate change which even President Bush is finallly waking up to.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton The Anti Gates Swindles are the result of people not being able to differentiate between between style and substance. If all the younger people I know had such a cynical attitude, I would be looking for a nice third world country. Jay I can't help but to think your post was intended as a polite slap in the face of sorts. Which is fine, I won't be ~shamed~ into accepting the nonsense that I've seen the proponents trying to force down the throat of the gullible and the forlorn I could go on and on with a rant about my misgivings on the discussion I've seen to date. But it would only aggravate the sheep . Foremost among my reservations would be the way the private parties willing to enter into the proposed "partnership" are not willing to quantify their own level of (monetary) contribution to the plan, Nor are they even willing to identify who they really are, they just time and again troll some big juicy worm through the pond, trying to see how many fools (mooneyed taxpayers) might be ready to "bite". When the topic passes through the local media, the response tends to inspire the impressionable into making starry eyed "water cooler" talk along the lines of "hey did you hear? we might be getting HSR!" with all the analytical prowess if a drunken sailor on shore leave.... No thought. as to where it will be going, whether it will be able to support itself, or what actual public good it will serve, they just get giddy with the joy of "getting something" like kids waiting for Santa to come sliding down the chimney. Ebeneezer Scrouge said it best "Bah HUMBUG!! [;)][;)] I must agree, why should the general public pay for somehting,that the vast majority of the populas will never utilize? When and where did the American people begin to assume that the federal goverment should pay for all local projects? Was it the Transcontinental railroad or was it the projects that were created during the Depression of the 1930's? Either way we have become dependent on our federal goverment to pave our driveway. The small town I live in has really grown in the past few years. New business' have been popping up left and right,but the city fathers have done nothing about our infastructure,why,because they are waiting for the state and federal goverments to come up and do their part, then see how much the city will have to ante up with. We all have the power to stop pork barrel spending: VOTE!
QUOTE: Originally posted by zapp I must agree, why should the general public pay for somehting,that the vast majority of the populas will never utilize? When and where did the American people begin to assume that the federal goverment should pay for all local projects? Was it the Transcontinental railroad or was it the projects that were created during the Depression of the 1930's? Either way we have become dependent on our federal goverment to pave our driveway. The small town I live in has really grown in the past few years. New business' have been popping up left and right,but the city fathers have done nothing about our infastructure,why,because they are waiting for the state and federal goverments to come up and do their part, then see how much the city will have to ante up with. We all have the power to stop pork barrel spending: VOTE!
QUOTE: Originally posted by erikthered I think the founding fathers were a group of fairly rich farmers and traders who were interested in conducting business without government interference. Consider for a moment that most of the colonial citizens were loyal subjects of the King- not fire breathing revolutionaries. When railroads first developed, it was the wealthy miners, industrialists, and farmers who realized what the potential was of a new transportation system in the USA. Most railroads were built not for passenger service- but to carry freight. They have been doing that well for over a century and a half. Then, as now, early railroads wanted government support in terms of land grants (for right of way) and bonds (for capital to lay rails.) As railroads grew, so too did government regulation. When it became apparent that railroads were fast becoming the haven for con artists, press agents, and speculators, the government moved in with a vengeance. The regulation was not so much over passenger service, but freight rates and trust combinations. The business of America is concerned with producing goods, and moving them. Moving people is far and away a secondary consideration. By the way, early roads in the USA were, in many cases, privately owned- the owners paid for upkeep by charging tolls- thus the beginning of "toll roads". Erik
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Have fun with your trains
QUOTE: Originally posted by erikthered .. Consider for a moment that most of the colonial citizens were loyal subjects of the King- not fire breathing revolutionaries. The business of America is concerned with producing goods....
QUOTE: Originally posted by Jack_S There is a simple YES/NO choice regarding passenger rail, including High Speed Rail. Either A - The US government funds passenger rail or B - The USA will have no passenger rail. An easy choice, take your pick.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
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