I HAVE NEVER BEEN TREATED SO BADLY BY A RR EMPLOYEE

[BudKarr]

There are many people in this world who like the "power" of their "authority." It would seem that this particular CN employee (or contract employee) overstepped the bounds on more than one issue of law.

Now, having said that - your statement about "all of your life" leads one to wonder - just how long a period is THAT? It's an expression people use, but it has no meaning unless someone has lived at lest a credible amount of decades and has had numerous life's experiences. I think you are way short of the mark.

Does that have anything to do with this rude character? Maybe and maybe not. Only you know what happened - since we do not have access to the other parties involved. Was anything done to inflame, antagonize, or otherwise make the situation worse?

Pretty much the same applies to interactions here on the forums. Being where one is not welcome can always set up a conflict.

I fully agree that we all have the right to be in public places to do what is permitted by law, irrespective of what some "Barney Fife" character may say. Been following that credo "all of my life."

Seems like you have an attiude about the adult world - one in which you are going to enter, rather soon I suspect. To make it better - be better.

BK

[Anonymous]

Many innocent activities have been negatively impacted by the increased security following 9-11.The threat of errorist activity has caused many companies to get pretty ___retentive about security. The power company I work for has become much more suspicious of anyone taking pictures whether from public property or not just because it's hard to tell what reasons anyone has for taking them. I fear that railfanning has we have known it for years will not be the same as it once was.

[richardy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates

QUOTE:

Made up???????? Why would I make something like this up?????????????

Well hey, don't take it personal, I don't even know you, so my comment is in no way meant as a personal indictment...but yeah, it sounds like a made up story, and here's why: Though it may seem otherwise from yout POV, I assure you that employee had better things to do than cpme hold your hand for hours on end.

He wanted you to go away, and you didn't. Think about that for a minute...what would you do if he came over to your house....and refused to go home when you asked him to leave?

Suppose further, that you threw him physically out of yout house, and he stood on the sidewalk trying to snap pictures through any windows you had open.....

What would YOU DO? Probably call the cops...what did he do? ...why he called the cops, didn't he? That bad old man refused to let you walk all over him,..and now you are mad at him?

GIVE ME A BREAK MAN! If it had been me, I would have called the RR screws for back up and then baited you to wander on the property, just to have an iron clad case.

Me personally, I'm not above trespassing by "accident"...but whenever a railroad employee tells me I gotta go...I go...there will always be anothe tomorrow to try again.

But defiantly playing games with the railroad,.. is ....let's just say "not too smart" and leave it at that.

So, to summarize the fact that you got a RR employee that upset, and managed to stay out of jail...makes the story sound a little bogus.

The reason they did not go to jail is cooler heads prevailed in the two police officers and I must assume the CN guy did not agree to sign a complaint against them. Had the CN guy signed the complaint they would have been arrested and then a very large public relations nightmare for CN would have started. It may very well have made national news. I'm sure he had that in the back of his mind and he wanted to keep his job. Jury's do not like big companies, I have been on four in my lifetime and I listened to the individuals during deliberation, they do not like big companies and a foreign one to boot. These railfans were on an access road not deep in the yard, ask them to leave and not come back; tell them where the property line is but don't call the police. If they do it again then call the police but be prepared to press charges. Once they were on public property they were not his problem any longer but he chose to overstep his authority and harass them.

At the point the CN guy started harassing them on public property he was breaking the law and subject to arrest. The railroaders on this site can support this guy all they want but he is a hothead with no diplomacy skills, probably little education and has no business being a manager. He is a pushy person that gets his kicks out of harassing people thinking he is really someone, I'm sure the railroaders that work for him dislike him but at the end of the day he is really nothing. He does not represent CN in a positive light and had the media been involved, which they would have if there had been an arrest, he probably would have been quickly reassigned or worse.

[ALCOC415]

I run a shortline here in Illinois and we have one real oddball unit an ALCO C415. The rest of our power is plain jane geeps. We get a lot of railfans and I don't mind them too much even going as far to talk to them. What I don't accept is the railfan that comes onto the property and acts like he can do what he wants. This will get you a free trip to jail. Our yard borders some city property and some railfans have been in the yard off of city property and when told this they generaly move back. I will tell you this I do keep an eye on them after being warned and if they are a real problem I write there license plate # down.
Dave

[jsoderq]

Back to the original post. They asked you to leave and you did not. You are lucky the cop didn't do more (probably did not want to do the paperwork). This is going to happen more and more. Yes, terrorists do photograph trains and security will always become a bigger concern. As more and more people confront rr employees there are going to be more incidents like this and eventually the police are going to start arresting people. Have the time and money for a lawyer? Just move on when asked!

[emdgp92]

I can see where the railroad employee would get upset if someone was on their property. All too often people get hurt (or do something stupid) when they are somewhere they shouldn't be. In this day and age, too many people will sue over stupid things. As a result, the railroads have to protect themselves. Not only that, but the threat of terrorism as well. Sorry folks, but the world forever changed after 9/11.

With that said, I can understand why a railroad would want to protect itself. If they ask you to leave, don't even bother trying to fight it. It's not worth possibly getting arrested. There are always more (and better) locations to shoot photos from.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by trainjunky29

QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173

I think the advise from csxenginer is well worth reading again. Read it very carefully. He is an employee and he knows and understands the mentality of railroads today.

Let's not forget that all forms of transportation are possible weapons today. Have we forgotten 9-11? Ok, so you say you are sorry, but stay around taking pictures...what is an employee supposed to do about that? I really think he was justified.

Stay off the property!

How would you like it if I came into your house and took a few pictures and walked around? Would you call the cops? I am sure you would. What if I then went outside and stood on the road and took more pictures and walked around? Think you might be a little concerned about the welfare of your wife and kids? Sure, there is no equivilant of "wife and kids" at Fond du Lac yard, but how many pounds of hazardous materials, including fuels, chemicals, etc. are there?

I continue to be amazed at railfan's insistance that we have a right, just because we subscribe to Trains magazine and have all sorts of pictures, books, magazines, etc. to be able to go and do whatever we want.

Like it or not....things changed on 9-11.

ed

Uno cosa:

Firstly, it's perfectly legal to take pictures of somebody's house from public property--can't do anything about that.

Sincerely,
Daniel Parks

And that is the D*MN TRUTH too!
Allan.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE:

Made up???????? Why would I make something like this up?????????????

Well hey, don't take it personal, I don't even know you, so my comment is in no way meant as a personal indictment...but yeah, it sounds like a made up story, and here's why: Though it may seem otherwise from yout POV, I assure you that employee had better things to do than cpme hold your hand for hours on end.

He wanted you to go away, and you didn't. Think about that for a minute...what would you do if he came over to your house....and refused to go home when you asked him to leave?

Suppose further, that you threw him physically out of yout house, and he stood on the sidewalk trying to snap pictures through any windows you had open.....

What would YOU DO? Probably call the cops...what did he do? ...why he called the cops, didn't he? That bad old man refused to let you walk all over him,..and now you are mad at him?

GIVE ME A BREAK MAN! If it had been me, I would have called the RR screws for back up and then baited you to wander on the property, just to have an iron clad case.

Me personally, I'm not above trespassing by "accident"...but whenever a railroad employee tells me I gotta go...I go...there will always be anothe tomorrow to try again.

But defiantly playing games with the railroad,.. is ....let's just say "not too smart" and leave it at that.

So, to summarize the fact that you got a RR employee that upset, and managed to stay out of jail...makes the story sound a little bogus.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173

I think the advise from csxenginer is well worth reading again. Read it very carefully. He is an employee and he knows and understands the mentality of railroads today.

Let's not forget that all forms of transportation are possible weapons today. Have we forgotten 9-11? Ok, so you say you are sorry, but stay around taking pictures...what is an employee supposed to do about that? I really think he was justified.

Stay off the property!

How would you like it if I came into your house and took a few pictures and walked around? Would you call the cops? I am sure you would. What if I then went outside and stood on the road and took more pictures and walked around? Think you might be a little concerned about the welfare of your wife and kids? Sure, there is no equivilant of "wife and kids" at Fond du Lac yard, but how many pounds of hazardous materials, including fuels, chemicals, etc. are there?

I continue to be amazed at railfan's insistance that we have a right, just because we subscribe to Trains magazine and have all sorts of pictures, books, magazines, etc. to be able to go and do whatever we want.

Like it or not....things changed on 9-11.

ed

Uno cosa:

Firstly, it's perfectly legal to take pictures of somebody's house from public property--can't do anything about that.

Sincerely,
Daniel Parks

[ChrisBARailfan]

I am not going to comment on this specific situation, but everyday Americans are giving up more and more freedom. At the rate we are going there may be a time when there are no more freedoms.

And remember, once a freedom is taken it is rarely returned.

[MP173]

I think the advise from csxenginer is well worth reading again. Read it very carefully. He is an employee and he knows and understands the mentality of railroads today.

Let's not forget that all forms of transportation are possible weapons today. Have we forgotten 9-11? Ok, so you say you are sorry, but stay around taking pictures...what is an employee supposed to do about that? I really think he was justified.

Stay off the property!

How would you like it if I came into your house and took a few pictures and walked around? Would you call the cops? I am sure you would. What if I then went outside and stood on the road and took more pictures and walked around? Think you might be a little concerned about the welfare of your wife and kids? Sure, there is no equivilant of "wife and kids" at Fond du Lac yard, but how many pounds of hazardous materials, including fuels, chemicals, etc. are there?

I continue to be amazed at railfan's insistance that we have a right, just because we subscribe to Trains magazine and have all sorts of pictures, books, magazines, etc. to be able to go and do whatever we want.

Like it or not....things changed on 9-11.

ed

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rgroeling

Yesterday, Tuesday October fourth, I had one of the worst railfanning experiences of my life...

My dad and I railfanned the CNs yard in Fondu lak... Where I got to see several CN locos, including a slug! and 2 WC SD45s !!!!!!!!!! NIICE!!!!! Of course, we were on a rr access road- trespassing, so instead of asking us to leave some CN guy called the COPS on us. The cops (there were 2!) said that we could take pictures from public streets, so my dad and I proceded to do so....

Just as a raised my camera to shot another picture, a CN truck roars up to me and my dad, stepping out of it was the guy who called the cops on us, and yelled to me, "son, put the camera down, there is no photography here. " My dad informed the CN guy that it was entirely legal to take pictures from the sidewalks, but he said that I couldn't take pictures. My dad told me I could take pictures, so I did. My dad and I hopped into our Jeep and moved on to a different spot to shoot, only to be followed by that same CN truck! This continued fo about 45 minutes, and just as I finished taking my last shots, The rude CN guy yelled to me and my dad- "I hope you guys are enjoying your little game, I am going to have you detained!" My dad told me he couldn't, and then the CN guy thretaned to have us arrersted! And I think he tried, as he called the cops again! and lied to thwem that we were continuing to trespass. Fortunently, the kind officer believed my dad and I and not the CN jerk, and we didn't get arrested.

Now, I have been railfanning my whole life, and employees os the UP, CSX, Montana Rail Link and CP have been so kind, and even given my dad and I tours of facilities. Never in my life have I been treated so badly by a railroad employee.

What do you all make of this?
That CN guy stalked me and my dad!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah, things around here really went down the crapper when the CN took over.[:(!]

From the WC's inception until the "takeover", the WC was incredibly friendly to railfans. I live about 3 blocks from the Shops/Yard, and every year from '87 til about '94, the WC would take part in "North Fondy Pride Days", by offering shop tours and displaying newly painted freight cars and an engine or 2. The WC even christened the SW-1 shop switcher "The Fran Weiner", after a retired SOO employee who was WC's unofficial photographer at North Fondy. I knew Fran well, and had access to the yards and shops. Remember a few times being invited to join Fran and his wife Dorothy in the engine house to view slides with some of the WC/ex-SOO employees that they knew.[:D]

Then, around '95, up went the "No Tresspassing" signs at the entrance to the Shops complex, and along Lakeshore Drive near the yard office. This was, IIRC, around the time Ed Burkhardt was ousted from the RR presidency, and the WC was more particular about who was on the property. Before that time, I had managed to get most of the original WC fleet (85 units)on film in both original paint and WC paint.[:D] Now, I rarely if ever take pics near the roundhouse/diesel house or the shops(which have been cut back to 1 shift, and the roundhouse/diesel shop to running repairs.)

As you mentioned, you were originally on the access road, which is off limits, no matter what. As far as public streets, where did he get you? Scott Street crossing(south end of the yard) has many places to take pics, and you can get some fairly decent pics on Subway Road & Minnesota Ave, at the north end. Be warned, however, the NFDL Police are a younger, more abrasive bunch than most P.D.s, and won't hesistate to ticket you for minor offenses(don't ask how I know)[V][}:)]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by trainboyH16-44

Sounds like a bad day, maybe you should move up here! I've trespassed (Not very much, and only where I know it's safe, and theres no better way) and the engineers still waved! I love this free country we have...
I think what you did was pretty much the right thing to do, although if it was me, I'd probably be alone, with some guy in a truck following me...
BTW, do you have the pics? I heart the WC
Matthew

I like the WC too, that is why I was up there[;)] If someone could please explain to be how to post pictures here I would be glad to share some photos[:)]

[Anonymous]

I can see both sides here.

Remember railroad employees (especially train crews) are reminded almost daily to report non-railroad people on railroad property.

Shoot all the photos you want, just do it from public property.

[trainboyH16-44]

Sounds like a bad day, maybe you should move up here! I've trespassed (Not very much, and only where I know it's safe, and theres no better way) and the engineers still waved! I love this free country we have...
I think what you did was pretty much the right thing to do, although if it was me, I'd probably be alone, with some guy in a truck following me...
BTW, do you have the pics? I heart the WC
Matthew

[Junctionfan]

I would have givin the CN guy the Brooklyn salute and said God Bless. As long as I am not making the real police upset and staying on public property, they don't have a thing on me. If anything, I would have filed a harassment charge on him if he pushed it.

That's just my opinion though.

Just to the assistant train master; if you want to be an actual law enforcement agent/officer, become a police officer for either the railroad or the people; until then go back to your job and let the professional do theirs the way they were trained to do-unless you want a police officer to go and start running the yard for you.

[CSXrules4eva]

I am a little bit confused here. Did Mr. CN call the railroad police or the "regular" police. If he called the regualar police, that means that he wasted the regular police officer's time when the called them a second time, I could see him calling the first time. I personally would of been very angry at Mr. CN for calling a second time when no laws were being broken. I would of said to Mr. CN go find something to do. The police have other things to worry about like, arson, robbery, rape, murder, son on so forth.........than to be worryed about someone taking pics off of privite property on public property in were tax payers have every right to do what they want (within the law) on pubilc property.

The best advise I can give in this situation is to stay off railroad property and forget about Mr. CN he was a jerk, and chances are you won't be seeing him again.

[Anonymous]

Hahahahahahahaha hah! Chris, it looks like you and your dad have had your first encounter with an assistant trainmaster. And believe me, he is much more frustrated by you and your dad convincing the RR cop you were okay than you were by his borish, fascistic behavior!

Don't let the ATM's ruin your life. (And stay on public property, because there is where he really is out of control of anything.)

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rgroeling

That is wat my dad said, and he was with me, THANK YOU piouslion
richardy and dwil89

My dad acknowledged to both the cop and Mr. CN that we were wrong to trespass

You are very welcome. From your post it sounds to me that your DAD is a gentlemen as you are surely one in the making. Well done and well said. - PL

[Anonymous]

Junctionfan, After trespassing on RR propertey, my dad promised that we would only take pics from public streets, which we did, and the CN guy was just angry that i was taking rr pics

I agree, Mr CN shouldn't have wasted the polices's time, and just so you know, that after being warned about trespassing my dad and I didn't come within 10 feet of the railraods lawn

[Sterling1]

CN: cyanide ion . . .

[Junctionfan]

If I was the police, I would have asked nicely to the CN guy to not waste my time with people who are NOW compling with the law just because he decided to be a ##$#head.

The police can't be everywhere all at once and while that idiot CN guy was getting the police on you the second time for no good legal reason, a legitimate crime; terrorist related or not could have been in progress but no, the police had to respond to that instead.

Legitimate legal or safety problem-fine call but don't waste the police's time; they are busy enough without having to take part in a soap opera.

[Anonymous]

That is wat my dad said, and he was with me, THANK YOU piouslion
richardy and dwil89

My dad acknowledged to both the cop and Mr. CN that we were wrong to trespass

[dwil89]

An issue here, is that once they were off railroad property and shooting from public property, the railroad employee had no jurisdiction telling him they couldn't shoot pics...what if these two were flying over the yard in an airplane taking pictures.....not a thing the employee could have done.....

[richardy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by payton

Sorry, but i have to say you were probably in the wrong and probably deserved and wee lucky not to get a ticket. If you were caught trespassing once, of course someone will keep an eye on you. I bet this wasnt the first time you trespassed, so it wouldnt be the last, and the employee had a right to "stalk" you as you brought it upon yourself.

Two wrongs do not make a right. I strongly disagree, no one has the "right" to "stalk" someone else. The CN employee was right to tell them to leave RR property, he was very wrong to follow them onto public property and harass them. "Keeping an eye on you" is acceptable but at the time the CN employee contacted them on public property he had overstepped his legal bounds and he was harassing them.

[Anonymous]

SUGGESTION - Get permission and identification. Go to the trouble of understanding what is going on, where you can be, what you can or cannot do, play by the rules, know who is who in your district or division, get to know them. Railroads like all large companies have public relations opfficers. So do your home work, I do and have never had a sharp word from any railroader that I have known that knew I would be in the area. (That includes NS, CSX, and KCS CSXengineer). As a matter of fact, the railroaders are often the ones that give the best locations to see the action and even take photographs. Just remember that you are a guest on the property. (Special thanks to *** Young CSX ret. for the advice)

[csxengineer98]

just be glade it wasnt NS..becouse the NS cops would have halled you away for tresspassing... taking pics is one thing..but when your in "my office" so to speak.... regardless if what your reason is... you might and can get the kind of issues you had .... the railroad is not a playground..the railroad is not in exestance for people just to take pics of trains...they are in the biz of moving freight and making money... and after 9-11 and the london train bombings... tresspassers are ALWAYS to be reported ASAP... infact ... we are to challange anyone tresspassing if we feel its safe to do so...and to call in suport such as the RR bulls..or a superviser... face it..the railroads are cracking down on tresspassers...not only becouse of the secirty risk...but becouse of stupid people doing stupid things and getting themselfs hurt or killed and haveing to deal with legal issues as a result...
bottom line... if it is railroad proporty in ANY way... accelss roads included... STAY OUT.. i know you think its a harmless thing your doing..but the railroads also have to cover their own asses...
csx engineer

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates

Just because a guy works for a railroad, is no proof that he isn't retarded.

Actually though, the story sounds a tad made up. I'm really surprised that the cop didn't take the railroads word over yours. If the RR guy had already called the cops once, and on the second time was willing to swear that you had violated trespass ordinances, it should be up to a judge, not a patrol officer, to decide who the trouble maker is.

Made up???????? Why would I make something like this up?????????????

Besides, the cop even admited to my dad and I the second time around that the guy was a HOTHEAD and we should continue to shoot from the sidewalk and just ignore the CN guy.

And, MP173, althogh we were on a rr acces road, I stayed on the far side of the road, never near the tracks

I understand that it was wrong to treuspass, and I will never do it again, but this guy just plain didn't want me photographing!

And please understand that I am NOT lokking for simpathy, but wondering if what this guy did was reasonable or fair

[MP173]

thing have changed the last few years....get used to it and STAY OFF PRIVATE PROPERTY.

Railroads are extremely dangerous.

Perhaps he did have a bad day...maybe he got his butt chewed out for safety violations of letting someone trespass. Who knows?

Imagine getting hurt or even worse...that would have been bad.

ed

[Anonymous]

Sorry, but i have to say you were probably in the wrong and probably deserved and wee lucky not to get a ticket. If you were caught trespassing once, of course someone will keep an eye on you. I bet this wasnt the first time you trespassed, so it wouldnt be the last, and the employee had a right to "stalk" you as you brought it upon yourself.