I HAVE NEVER BEEN TREATED SO BADLY BY A RR EMPLOYEE

[samfp1943]

As some of the previous responses have mentioned and intimated, a railfan that succeeds is one who has done his/her homework and some planning. A little time networking railroad employees can be a really good thing, consideration that one is on another's job is also a good thing. Around this area there are plenty of public access to good locations for photos of all kinds of motive power, and MOW equipment that is used in the area..I have found that when you meet the employees and treat them with respect they will return it in kind.

[Anonymous]

I feel really sorry that you and your father had to get treated rudely by a RR employee, I sometimes go railfanning and I've never recieved any complaints, I once saw a BNSF truck on the train tracks and it was parked there and a few minutes later a train went by and I counted the freight cars from about 30 feet away from the tracks and after the train went by I walked off and the guys in the BNSF truck never said anything to me.

[Anonymous]

[(-D] Good one!!!! Very funny[bow]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Ah Ha!
The secret is out; Anti Gates is really a PR guy for CN!

Ed

The job really sucked under canadian ownership, we were expected to smile and pass out flowers.

Now, under USA control with it's liberalized view towards firearms, the job is finally FUN again!!!

[edblysard]

Ah Ha!
The secret is out; Anti Gates is really a PR guy for CN!

Ed

[Anonymous]

QUOTE:

I finally fiqured it out. Very possible that TheAntiGates is really the CN guy!![(-D]

Heh heh, it would be funny if I was, wouldn't it?

[Anonymous]

[(-D]

[richardy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

. My point is that sometimes it might be better to be more diplomatic ...-<snip>-

How's this for "diplomatic"?

It's time for RAILFAN ROUNDUP!!!

I finally fiqured it out. Very possible that TheAntiGates is really the CN guy!![(-D]

[Junctionfan]

I understand your concerns completely. In fact, I used to railfan with a guy that was a complete idiot. I explained it on another thread. He was the guy that decided to go into the Woodstock Yard of CP, wieve through strings of cars-not even around them at least; just to take a picture of a SOO Line caboose.I was so upset because I even felt vulnerable to arrest that I lectured the guy for quite some time. Another other guy that was driving with us told him that he never wanted to railfan with him again too.

When I used to railfan with my 10 year old cousin, I was very, very strict about him not going onto the property-in fact sometimes I was a little too Draconian with my expectations but it was for the right reasons.

[edblysard]

I understand you point, Andrew.

Yes, if a fan is trespassing, and it appears as if they are doing so unawares, or just simply standing a few feet over the property line, more often than not I will simply suggest they take a few steps back...if they don’t seem to understand, I explain that they are on RR property, and if the gumshoe comes along (our guys patrol regularly) they could get a citation.
I often point out that if they want an even better view, they should go to the overpass next to the yard, its public property, and you can see into the entire yard from a raised viewpoint.

And almost every one I approach gets it...they move.
I have had a few even come back, and holler "thanks" after they shoot a few photos from the overpass.

It’s the ones who decide that the approach of "All I want is too..." that get us riled up.

They assume, incorrectly, that having a camera around their neck somehow entitles them to go anywhere, as if they were some intrepid news photographer, that the camera is a license to go and be places most others cant or don’t go.

Which is a falsehood all by itself, the news reporters and crews have to ask permission to be on property, just like anyone else.

So yes, there is a double set of standards...where I work, the yard is bordered on the west by Wayside drive, the south by Clinton drive and the ship channel, the east by a private RR access road, and the north by UPs Basin yard and main.
The majority of photographers show up on Wayside, because of the ease of access, and the large amount of parking area there.

There is a pretty regular group, they show up most weekends, making the rounds of all the yards here, (there is 5 yards within a ten minute drive time) and most of us know them on sight, they stay off property, clean up after themselves, and are a pretty sociable group of guys...I have taken a coffee break and gone and talked to them on occasion, in fact, I sometimes take one of their cameras and get them shots of stuff they don’t have access to...one of our crews gave a few of them a "tour" of the scale house and track scales, which are right next to the street, because they are such a well behaved group.
(Ok, so they had coffee and donuts too)

But the guy who just wanders across the yard, then seems to think because we (then) didn’t have fences means he can just come on in is the guy who gets the rude, hardnosed treatment.

We ask nice the first time, and if that doesn’t work, we call the gumshoes.

Well, we didn’t have fences, but we do now, because of the amount of trespassers.

The story that starts this thread is told only from one point of view, and I am sure somewhat edited to slant the story towards the young mans advantage, we don’t get to hear from the "rude" CP employee...but I would bet there was a good reason he wanted them off property...my guess was he had a bad run in with other fans, maybe one got hurt...who knows, but one thing is for sure, the kids stated he and his Dad were trespassing in the first place.

Could the guy have been more diplomatic?
Sure, but nothing requires him to, nothing at all, and we have no idea why he was so adamant about them leaving in the first place.

Look at it from the railroader’s point of view...
I am required to stand next to tankcars full of some of the most god awful stuff on the planet...crap than, if it gets out, can kill you in one breath, blow up, acids that eat just about any organic thing they touch, and gases that, when released to atmosphere, form clouds that can scour the landscape and kill everything it touches.

Add in the fact that these cars can be deadly quite when they roll, we let them roll free all the time, and once I pull the pin and their gone, there is no stopping them till they run into another car...if you happen to get in the way, your dead, period.

I also have to worry about my helper, is he in the clear, are there any other crews working near me, are the switches lined correctly, is the car going into the right track, along with a few other things...now, add in a fan with a camera walking around in and among all of this...just how polite should I be to someone who steps in front of a rolling car to takes its photo because he though it was a "neat" shot?

How nice should my engineer be to the fan who stands a foot away from his moving locomotive trying to get an "action" shot?

People get hurt and killed doing this stuff for a living, and we should be polite and patient with the trespasser who have no real clue how any of this stuff acts?

Think about that for a little while...

Ed

[UPTRAIN]

I've never had this problem on the UP here, knowing everybody...including the special agent. The only people I have to deal with are the retarded city cops who refuse to leave me alone, even with me standing there and the UP special agent tells them not to bother me, they had literally told me to get off UP property when I was IN THE VEHICLE with the RR Cop. I ran into one small problem in Illinois on the CSX with some idiot citizen calling me in as a "middle eastern male". Any of you that have ever seen a photo of me, work boots, carhartt jeans, a John Deere shirt and a UP cap is hardly the attire of an arab person, not to mention my farmer's tan...

The story about my Illinois event can be found at: http://uptrain.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=107893

As for the CN dude, what a stupid moron, I think I'll listen to what Randy had to say about this one, he just sounds like a jerkwad.

[fuzzybroken]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

I understand that Ed. My point is that sometimes it might be better to be more diplomatic to say a father and his son who will leave when asked then say a snot-nosed punk who thinks it is his right to be there-you know who I am refering too.

I understand that it is private property but most people don't refinery-fan if you understand where I'm going with this. Please believe me that I am not trying to start an arguement; I just simply want to know why the employees aren't a little more patient with those who may only tresspass a little bit in an area that is not directly involved with equipment or anything else (patient in this case I am refering to a polite request to leave and suggestion to where to take the picture) as opposed to the hardline approach which is what you had to do with that guy you told us about? Can't there be a double standard for those who are polite and just a little too rambunctious and those who are complete jerks and have no respect?

So maybe the moral of the story is... get your pictures from public places first, then sneak in and get the ones on private property??? [}:)]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

. My point is that sometimes it might be better to be more diplomatic ...-<snip>-

How's this for "diplomatic"?

It's time for RAILFAN ROUNDUP!!!

[Junctionfan]

I understand that Ed. My point is that sometimes it might be better to be more diplomatic to say a father and his son who will leave when asked then say a snot-nosed punk who thinks it is his right to be there-you know who I am refering too.

I understand that it is private property but most people don't refinery-fan if you understand where I'm going with this. Please believe me that I am not trying to start an arguement; I just simply want to know why the employees aren't a little more patient with those who may only tresspass a little bit in an area that is not directly involved with equipment or anything else (patient in this case I am refering to a polite request to leave and suggestion to where to take the picture) as opposed to the hardline approach which is what you had to do with that guy you told us about? Can't there be a double standard for those who are polite and just a little too rambunctious and those who are complete jerks and have no respect?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Because that part of the GCOR isn’t directed towards the general public...
I thought you might have caught on by now...

Go to any book store and ask for a copy of the GCOR, or NORAC rule book...
Your smooth out of luck, bet on it.
Because the rule books are not for consumption by the public, they were never intended for general publication, and are directed towards railroad employees and customers, not fans.

You mentioned that railroaders work in a "public atmosphere"...nonsense...we work on private property, it just dosnt have walls around it.
Try waltzing into any refinery down here, and see how "public" the atmosphere gets...this aint the shopping mall, and we dont have door greeters...

What the GCOR is referring to is directed towards the railroad's customers, and other railroad employees...used to be if you didn’t have a pint in your back pocket, you couldn’t get on the motor...fights amongst employees were common, they were a little rougher around the edges than they are today, and a lot of times, conductors and engineers would "explain" how a new brakie made a mistake with their fist...

Go ahead, do as was suggested in another posting...call any trainmaster on any railroad, and complain that a employee would not let you take a photo of a locomotive, in fact, tell him how rude that employee was.....I would be surprised if he didn't hang up on you.

What you guys don’t seem to get is that you are allowed to take pictures only by our good graces...

Trust me; if we didn’t want you taking photos, we would "ruin" every one you tried to take.

Imagine how many photos Railpictures would post if all of them had crew members fanny’s hanging out the window, or the engineer and conductor were "shooting the bird" out both windows...

Ever get the full blast from a locomotives air horn?

I doubt it, because at full blast, they can cause real harm to your ears, and make enough vibration to rattle a camera on a tripod, not to mention make you flinch if your holding the camera in your hand.

Fact is, most of us don’t mind you shooting photos, it is a kinda ego boost in a way...but we do mind when you do things that endanger you or us...

If you read most of the postings here, you should realize that the majority of the fans have good experiences, not bad, and most railroaders are not bothered by fans, in fact, most railroaders are a pretty friendly bunch.

Sure, every once in a while, you run across a jerk, but that’s the exception, not the rule.

Ed

Well said, Ed...

LC

[edblysard]

Because that part of the GCOR isn’t directed towards the general public...
I thought you might have caught on by now...

Go to any book store and ask for a copy of the GCOR, or NORAC rule book...
Your smooth out of luck, bet on it.
Because the rule books are not for consumption by the public, they were never intended for general publication, and are directed towards railroad employees and customers, not fans.

You mentioned that railroaders work in a "public atmosphere"...nonsense...we work on private property, it just dosnt have walls around it.
Try waltzing into any refinery down here, and see how "public" the atmosphere gets...this aint the shopping mall, and we dont have door greeters...

What the GCOR is referring to is directed towards the railroad's customers, and other railroad employees...used to be if you didn’t have a pint in your back pocket, you couldn’t get on the motor...fights amongst employees were common, they were a little rougher around the edges than they are today, and a lot of times, conductors and engineers would "explain" how a new brakie made a mistake with their fist...

Go ahead, do as was suggested in another posting...call any trainmaster on any railroad, and complain that a employee would not let you take a photo of a locomotive, in fact, tell him how rude that employee was.....I would be surprised if he didn't hang up on you.

What you guys don’t seem to get is that you are allowed to take pictures only by our good graces...

Trust me; if we didn’t want you taking photos, we would "ruin" every one you tried to take.

Imagine how many photos Railpictures would post if all of them had crew members fanny’s hanging out the window, or the engineer and conductor were "shooting the bird" out both windows...

Ever get the full blast from a locomotives air horn?

I doubt it, because at full blast, they can cause real harm to your ears, and make enough vibration to rattle a camera on a tripod, not to mention make you flinch if your holding the camera in your hand.

Fact is, most of us don’t mind you shooting photos, it is a kinda ego boost in a way...but we do mind when you do things that endanger you or us...

If you read most of the postings here, you should realize that the majority of the fans have good experiences, not bad, and most railroaders are not bothered by fans, in fact, most railroaders are a pretty friendly bunch.

Sure, every once in a while, you run across a jerk, but that’s the exception, not the rule.

Ed

[Junctionfan]

Then why do they have regulations saying to be more professional in their mannerisms? That doesn't make sense to me.

So I should expect a cop to come up to me and say "Get the_____ off the property or I'll pump your guts full of lead" as opposed to a more professional, diplomatic but authoritative request to leave? Just because the railroad employees are not law enforcement, doesn't mean they have the authority to act like a dirt-bag and start thinking he is hardcore buy flexing his limited authority which he or she may or may not have when outside their jurisdiction.

If an employee can't conduct him or herself in a professional manner, then they have no business working in a public atmosphere. Let's face it, railroad property is a major interactor with the public therefore the employees should have some kind of decent repore when dealing with the public that may or not have direct contact with the railroad property either on purpose or by accident. If you can restrain yourself from acting like a barbarian that your know, that is why the company hired their own police force.

Honesty people, what is the issue here? You want respect from the public and yet some of you condone the action of the hothead; which is it? Please, make me understand.

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BaltACD

In view of the security situation that exists today in the free world. All rail employees are being encouraged to challenge ANY, repeat ANY tresspasser that is observed on company property.

The rail operating culture almost ensures that any challenge will not be tactful. Operating rail employees are not hired for their 'Public Relations' abilities.

yep.... totaly 100% true...
csx engineer

[emdgp92]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Norfolk Southern Railfan

All that I can say to this topic is that I've never had any problems with NS employees.

I've never had a problem with them either. At the downtown Pittsburgh (former PRR) station, they said that as long as I didn't do anything stupid (mess with equipment, get in their way, etc.) and stayed on the platforms, I could do pretty much whatever. They also said that the area past the platforms was NS property, and it's not marked as such, so I avoided that area. While I was down there, I got quite a few friendly waves from the NS crews and some Amtrak guys as well :)

Same thing with the former Monongahela (MGA) depot in Waynesburg, PA. When I first went down there years ago, I asked if it was OK to shoot some photos. Again, the MGA guys (and later CR, and NS) said pretty much the same thing--as long as I was out of the way, they didn't care.

What it all boils down to is respect. If you show them a little, you'd be amazed what you get in return. In fact, when I was down at the MGA depot one night, one of the guys said that the CR business train (complete with 2 E units) was on the siding at the opposite end of town if I wanted to see it!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Green Bay Paddlers

Sounds like you were trespassing and the CN guy was doing his job. I'm confused what the issue is here?

If you read the whole story, you will see that the CN guy kept after them after they had left CN property and gone onto the public street. While they were on CN property, they were trespassing; however, after they had left and gotten onto the public street, then you have to ask, what authority does he have to tell them to move or quit taking pictures from public property? Answer: once they got onto public property (the street) the CN guy had no further authority to tell them to move or to complain.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jsoderq

OK this has gone on long enough. One last thought especially for all you railfans with attitude. If you are asked to leave by a legal peace officer, regardless where you are standing, you are disobeying a lawful order and can be arrested. If you don't believe this get in the middle of a crime scene or accident and try to tell them you are on public property and refuse to leave. I guarantee you will get a chance to see the judge.

I know man,..I think that the "soft" cop in the original story should lose his job over this, imagine the way he failed to protect the railroads right's by allowing these unknowns to continue harrassing the RR employee.... SHAMEFUL!!

He ought to have (at minimum)his doughnut eating priviliges suspended for life!! [8D]

[jsoderq]

OK this has gone on long enough. One last thought especially for all you railfans with attitude. If you are asked to leave by a legal peace officer, regardless where you are standing, you are disobeying a lawful order and can be arrested. If you don't believe this get in the middle of a crime scene or accident and try to tell them you are on public property and refuse to leave. I guarantee you will get a chance to see the judge.

[Anonymous]

All that I can say to this topic is that I've never had any problems with NS employees.

[emmar]

I can't really feel that sorry for you rgroeling because you were tresspassing the first time. A good policy is to always stay on public property so that if someone does not like you taking pictures you are not doing anything wrong and they can't get you in trouble. Also if a railroad employee is being rude then just go somewhere else so that the situation does not escalate out of control, as your situation did.

Have fun photographing trains everyone but please follow the rules and be safe.

[richardy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates

QUOTE:

You may want to read Randy's post above.

I did, and by god, i'd arrest Randy too if he came on property tresspassing, and got lippy when asked to leave..

[%-)]

[Junctionfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Green Bay Paddlers

Sounds like you were trespassing and the CN guy was doing his job. I'm confused what the issue is here?

The second time it supposedly was an issue, he wasn't tresspassing and in fact was following the advice of the public police that visited them the first time-the CN guy was exceeding his authority.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE:
Firstly, it's perfectly legal to take pictures of somebody's house from public property--can't do anything about that.

Sincerely,
Daniel Parks

For some reason, the "peeping tom" ordinances come to mind, they are there for a reason, and it is not to protect the rights of people walking down the sidewalk

[Anonymous]

QUOTE:

You may want to read Randy's post above.

I did, and by god, i'd arrest Randy too if he came on property tresspassing, and got lippy when asked to leave..

[TimChgo9]

I have never had a serious problem with railroad employees. I guess when I am railfanning sometimes, it helps to have small children along... LOL... some people just can't resist talking to the little ones :-) In all seriousness, though, a lot of railroad employees are kind, and do take a moment or so out of their busy days to talk. In fact, about once a week, the CSX brings in a string of hoppers on the IHB and drops them in the small yard right behind my building. Well one Saturday, while my little ones were over, the member of the train crew that was walking the train saw my children and I standing there watching and took the time to come over and say "hi" and answer my 4 year old son, and 3 year old daughter's questions. He spent about 5 minutes with us, and we thanked him and went on our way, and he went back to work.. Now, in the two weeks since, when the hoppers are being dropped, if I see the train crew, I get a wave if I happen to be out there when they are working. Also, over the years I became friendly with a (now retired) IHB security officer. He was a great source for info, and a great guy. The guy who replaced him is not as friendly, but all the same, the guy knows who I am, because "Fred" told him about me. He has seen me at my usual spot, and just reminds me to stay off the tracks, which I do.