QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer C&NW sold thier soul to UP to get into the PRB. I suspected at the time that C&NW would pay dearly for this [:(].
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW. Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain? Thanks
QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW. Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain? Thanks Do you mean C&NW in Gillette proper, because C&NW never got there. At first C&NW's rights ended at Coal Creek Jct and then extended north to Caballo Jct still about 20 miles south of Gillette. Also the farther north on the joint line the fewer C&NW trains there would be since C&NW only entered and exited from the south end. I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer C&NW sold thier soul to UP to get into the PRB. I suspected at the time that C&NW would pay dearly for this [:(]. Bob or others might comment on this, but I believe it actually turned out quite well for the C&NW. Jay
QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW. Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain? Thanks Do you mean C&NW in Gillette proper, because C&NW never got there. At first C&NW's rights ended at Coal Creek Jct and then extended north to Caballo Jct still about 20 miles south of Gillette. Also the farther north on the joint line the fewer C&NW trains there would be since C&NW only entered and exited from the south end. I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is. I didn't know that the CNW(now UP) didn't go all the way up to Gillette. I moved away in 1984, and have only been back once. So apparantly the CNW only served the mines in the southern end of Campbell County?
QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 Just imagine what kinda bad financial position CNW was in NOT to get financial backing for the biggest opportunity in the 20th century for railroads. Bob, it must have been bleak. Today, DME seemingly can get backing, with rates considerably lower (adjusted for inflation) than back in the 70's. CNW was sitting on a black gold mine and couldnt pull the trigger. How frustrating. As I understand it, CNW "built" down to the UP, perhaps thru trackage rights and then handed the coal over to UP and then received it back at Fremont, or Omaha. ed
QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line?
QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Yes, it would have cost a whole lot to rebuild the Cowboy Line. Its was 519 miles from Fremont to Shawnee Jct with 90-100 lbs rail with very little ballast. There were 417 bridges, almost all of which would have to have been rebuilt. At best it would have cost 1 million a mile to get the line to the point where a coal train could even safely travel over it. In the mid 70's when rebuilding the Cowboy was first proposed, C&NW was in no shape to spend at least a half billion dollars just on the Cowboy and then another half billion on their portion of the Joint Line. C&NW couldn't have managed that even in the best of times.
QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Yes, it would have cost a whole lot to rebuild the Cowboy Line. Its was 519 miles from Fremont to Shawnee Jct with 90-100 lbs rail with very little ballast. There were 417 bridges, almost all of which would have to have been rebuilt. At best it would have cost 1 million a mile to get the line to the point where a coal train could even safely travel over it. In the mid 70's when rebuilding the Cowboy was first proposed, C&NW was in no shape to spend at least a half billion dollars just on the Cowboy and then another half billion on their portion of the Joint Line. C&NW couldn't have managed that even in the best of times. Once CNW's Pacific ambitions ended, the Cowboy line no longer mattered in the larger scheme of things. For all intents and purposes, it became a Granger branch. In the 1970's there was a lot of overbuilt capacity, and it made sense to use UP's available capacity rather than spend a lot of money on a superfluous single commodity line. Today it might be different, as capacity is maxed and any new business is going to require added tracks. Thus, we have the DM&E taking on what CNW couldn't pull off. If CNW had somehow managed to keep it all on the home rails sans UP's involvement, would that have forestalled the UP takeover of CNW?
QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox The C&NW recognized the potental in the PRB in the early 1970s but could not find a way to finance the project. During this time I was a Market Manager at the C&NW. The BN initically announced they were going to object to the C&NW coming into the PRB. Robert Spafford, Chairman of the ICC, invited Larry Provo, CEO of the C&NW and Bob Dowding, CEO of the BN to a meeting in Washington. He pointed out to his guests that the US faced an energy crisis and the national interest required the C&NW coming into the PRB as soon as they could arrange financing and specifically without a long drawn out ICC case about the C&NW getting access. The two CEOs agreed with Mr Spafford's view. bobwilcox: What is/was a Market Manager, at CNW? Thanks However, the C&NW was unable to finance the project via the Cowboy Line or a connection with the UP in NE. Therefore, the UP thought the C&NW should step aside and not object to the UP coming in from Nebraska via the North Platte River. The C&NW's counter proposal was that they set up a joint venture(Northwest Town Properties). The C&NW contributed their geographic position and the UP contributed their borrowing power to the new joint venture.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I seem to recall that the UP and CNW had been working together for a long time-as far back as when UP was built? I do know that CNW was a major partner in hauling UP trains from Fremont and Omaha on to Chicago. It would seem to me that CNW was not really in a position to ask any other railroad for help. UP, I'm sure would have agreed.[;)]
QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 UP rerouted much of it's traffic ..
QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox The C&NW recognized the potental in the PRB in the early 1970s but could not find a way to finance the project. During this time I was a Market Manager at the C&NW. The BN initically announced they were going to object to the C&NW coming into the PRB. Robert Spafford, Chairman of the ICC, invited Larry Provo, CEO of the C&NW and Bob Dowding, CEO of the BN to a meeting in Washington. He pointed out to his guests that the US faced an energy crisis and the national interest required the C&NW coming into the PRB as soon as they could arrange financing and specifically without a long drawn out ICC case about the C&NW getting access. The two CEOs agreed with Mr Spafford's view. bobwilcox: What is/was a Market Manager, at CNW? Thanks However, the C&NW was unable to finance the project via the Cowboy Line or a connection with the UP in NE. Therefore, the UP thought the C&NW should step aside and not object to the UP coming in from Nebraska via the North Platte River. The C&NW's counter proposal was that they set up a joint venture(Northwest Town Properties). The C&NW contributed their geographic position and the UP contributed their borrowing power to the new joint venture.
QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Union Pacific took out an option to buy the Iowa Interstate in May 1989 while Japonica Partners launched a hostile takeover bid for the C&NW. UP would have put in double track and CTC and certainly could have built a large yard away from Chicago, much as they have done at Rochelle. Perhaps they would have purchased the EJE east of Joliet and interchanged with NS, CSX and Conrail in Indiana. The Rochelle webcam would have been at Wyanet. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=16&X=176&Y=2863&W
QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Union Pacific took out an option to buy the Iowa Interstate in May 1989 while Japonica Partners launched a hostile takeover bid for the C&NW. UP would have put in double track and CTC and certainly could have built a large yard away from Chicago, much as they have done at Rochelle. Perhaps they would have purchased the EJE east of Joliet and interchanged with NS, CSX and Conrail in Indiana. The Rochelle webcam would have been at Wyanet. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=16&X=176&Y=2863&W Deja-Vu! Makes you wonder why UP didn't jump right in and buy CNW at that time?
QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox Each market manager at the C&NW was in charge of a group of commodities. I did chemicals while other people did grain, autos, coal, lumber,food, etc. It was our job to design the services our customers required, set the price for the service and then promote the C&NW's services to the customers. Most of the time I was doing this prior to the Staggers Act so the pricing part had serious limitations. However, we were able to get block shipments of potash and grain up and running prior to Staggers. In addition the CNW in the 1970s had three basic strategies. We were to get the comuter service deficits off our back and on to the backs of the taxpayers in NE IL. We were to abandon the 60% of the mileage that only produced 4% of the revenue. We were to build a strong relationship with the UP after the CRIP fiasco when the UP and CNW were at each others throats. All of our market plans had to complement these three strategies.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Can you elaborate on designing the services your customers required? If most was regulated, what could CNW do to differentiate it from other railroads, in order to keep from competing soley on price?
QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Union Pacific bought the C&NW for the line from Council Bluffs to Chicago. It was competing with ATSF for Chicago-California traffic and with BN for Pacific North West-Chicago traffic and it needed that line to be in top shape. UP was concerned C&NW would let the line degrade. UP had the morgage on the WRPI and would have gotten that one way or another. The rest of the C&NW was not that important to UP.
QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 UP rerouted much of it's traffic .. The UP or any other railroad does not have traffic to reroute. The person paying the freight routes the traffic. There are no exceptions except for a emergency situation such as a derailment or a flood.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding As part of the BN merger, CNW was granted (?) a *Gateway* to the BN at Oakes, N.D. Did they use this? And, did it do them any good? Of course, the line is gone now.[:(] Thanks
QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 UP rerouted much of it's traffic .. The UP or any other railroad does not have traffic to reroute. The person paying the freight routes the traffic. There are no exceptions except for a emergency situation such as a derailment or a flood. Perhaps reroute is the wrong word and I should have said shifted? In any case, during the late 60s UP was short-hauling itself over the CB&Q via Grand Island to avoid the CNW Omaha line into Chicago. Once Heineman was gone, CNW did major repairs to the line, opened the Fremont cutoff and as you mentioned in another post, relations and traffic improved greatly. Some other things CNW did that made it desireable to UP was the opening of Global 1 at Wood street , development of Intermodal business, the Falcons. etc. The line was aleady double-track and capable of high speed without needing major re-alignments like the RI and Milw routes would have required. Regarding the buyout, I seem to recall that UP owned a big chunk of non-voting stock as part of the coal line deal. They were also a major player in the Blackstone Group which served as a white knight against the Japonica bid. I believe they owned something like 30% of the stock at the time of the buyout and probably controlled more through other partners in Blackstone. IMHO both roads ultimately benefited. The partnership with UP in the coal line saved CNW from becoming just another granger, while the Omaha line continues to be the vital eastern part of the Overland Route, just as it has been since the beginning.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Are you saying CNW opened Global 1? I thought UP did?
QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris_S68 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Are you saying CNW opened Global 1? I thought UP did? Global One/Wood street = CNW Global Two/Proviso = CNW Global Three/Rochelle = UP
QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 Perhaps reroute is the wrong word and I should have said shifted? In any case, during the late 60s UP was short-hauling itself over the CB&Q via Grand Island ... Regarding the buyout...
QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 I recall there was an article in Trains (late 70's) that gave a in depth look at the Falcons. It was in the form of the writer riding the Falcon from Chicago to the handoff to the UP. Might be good looking up for more historical info for you CNW fans. It might have been titled "Route of the Falcons" or "Where Falcons Fly" something like that. ed
QUOTE: Originally posted by farmer03 Maybe someone could give me a brief explanation of what/who Japonica was?
QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding [ What were the falcons? Thanks
QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding [ What were the falcons? Thanks The Falcons were scheduled high speed run-through TOFC/COFC trains. I believe the service started in the early to mid 70s. Wood Street was used as the terminal because it was close to the city with good access from nearby expressways. There were cutoff times for trucks and the trains left on time with whatever they had. CNW did a really good job marketing the service and it was very successful. When double-stack serviice started, Wood Street and an old B&O yard adjacent to it were turned into Global One.
QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. ZCSLT - High priority intermodal, Canal St, Chicago, IL to Lathrop, CA (Sometimes this train is symboled as ZCSOA for Oakland, CA). A lot of orange Schneidner trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @1:30pm ZLTCS - Lathrop, CA to Canal St, Chicago, IL ZCSSC - Canal St, Chicago, IL to Salt Lake City, UT. A lot of UPS trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @9:45pm. ZSCCS - Salt Lake City, UT to Canal St, Chicago, IL CC
QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Did CNW have any tunnels online?
QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Did CNW have any tunnels online?
QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. ZCSLT - High priority intermodal, Canal St, Chicago, IL to Lathrop, CA (Sometimes this train is symboled as ZCSOA for Oakland, CA). A lot of orange Schneidner trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @1:30pm ZLTCS - Lathrop, CA to Canal St, Chicago, IL ZCSSC - Canal St, Chicago, IL to Salt Lake City, UT. A lot of UPS trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @9:45pm. ZSCCS - Salt Lake City, UT to Canal St, Chicago, IL CC Good that the tradition carried through, but the name doesn't have quite the *cool* factor as "falcon"[;)]
QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 There was a C&NW tunnel at Tunnel City Wisconsin which was just north of CMSP&P tunnel #1. It collapsed in 1973 and the C&NW got trackage rights over the Milwaukee Road through the tunnel which continued on to Winona Minnesota. Union Pacific still uses these rights. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=15&X=1735&Y=12188&W=1
QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What took CNW so long to rationalize it's branchlines?
QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 The C&NW gained entry into Kansas City by aquiring the CGW. They also got rid of a competitor and gained acess to more customers. They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. How did CNW abandon a lot of CGW fairly quickly? See bobwilcox post above.
QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly.
QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. How did CNW abandon a lot of CGW fairly quickly? See bobwilcox post above. Most of the Iowa trackage was abandoned between 1980 and 1984. They acquired the CGW in 1968 so it would seem quickly is the wrong word.
QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What took CNW so long to rationalize it's branchlines? Basically it was the ICC. In the early 1970s a money losing line with traffic would take 4-5 years to abandon in the face of opposition. Within ten years that time frame had been cut to two years and the ICC allowing "oppurtuinity" costs into the process.
QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Did railroads do anything different concerning a line they *wished* they could abandon? like discourage traffic? Or, conversely, if a certain line wasn't getting enough traffic to pay for itself, would a railroad try harder to pick up new business?
QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW?
QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees.
QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks
QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 He was terrific for the C&NW ! He saved the North Western from bankruptcy, got them into St. Louis and Kansas City and won the war with the CMSP&P and the CRI&P. Murphy, I would really like to know when the bridge over the Mississippi at Keithsburg opened. Does it say in the book ?
QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 Bob: Did you buy enough? ed
QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks IMHO Larry Provo was the strongest CEO the C&NW had in the Post War period. Without him the CNW would have gone the way of the MILW and CRIP. He got the railroad focused toward the future which meant getting rid of the losses on comuter service, getting rid of the branchlines and getting in bed with the UP. He put together a very good set of managers including Jim Wolfe and Ed Burkhart. In the process some of us made a lot of money.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks IMHO Larry Provo was the strongest CEO the C&NW had in the Post War period. Without him the CNW would have gone the way of the MILW and CRIP. He got the railroad focused toward the future which meant getting rid of the losses on comuter service, getting rid of the branchlines and getting in bed with the UP. He put together a very good set of managers including Jim Wolfe and Ed Burkhart. In the process some of us made a lot of money. Did he go on to work for UP,or retire? I can't say I've heard his name before, unless the CNW yard in Chicago is named after him? Provo Yard?
QUOTE: Originally posted by Bob-Fryml A friend of mine who hired-on in train service with the C.& N.W. in Marshalltown, Iowa back in the late 1960s told me that one of the first rumors he heard was, "It's only a matter of time before Union Pacfic takes us over." That happened officially in 1995. In 1972 the C.& N.W. went "Employee Owned." Financially, during the four or five years of employee ownership, the railroad lived pretty much a hand-to-mouth existence and worked extremely hard to bring whatever pennies it could to the bottom line. When the railroad went into the power market it largely purchased second hand units. Rail and crosstie replacements were abysmally low. But here's the amazing part: a $10,000 investment on the day the company went "Employee Owned" was worth a cool million the day the company went public again. Given the generally mediocre condition of the property and all of the moribund branchlines the company was saddled with, to my way of thinking there is no way on God's green earth that any rational person could accept that the value of C.& N.W. stock could increase a hundred fold in such a short period of time. If there was ever an example of irrational exuberance, this was it! As to why the U.P. waited so long to merge, a previous contributor to this thread expressed the right idea: too many money losing branchlines. Had U.P. grabbed the railroad before the Interstate Commerce Commission liberalized its abandonment formulas, the politics of abandoning those lines would have been hysterical. Hundreds of communities and many dozens of shippers would have righteously insisted that "Certainly a rich and powerful railroad like Union Pacific can afford to keep our branch line going." Multiply that kind of pleading by dozens of highly-taxed, light-railed, worn-tied, inadequately-bridged subdivisions and industrial leads, and it's no wonder that Uncle Pete held off. Question for Bob Wilcox. In the last two or three years of its independence I seem to recall that the C.& N.W. acted as a sub-contractor of sorts for Union Pacific with respect to a series of Chicago - Council Bluffs high-speed container/trailer trains. The trains moved on a Chicago - West Coast tariff that specified Union Pacific the entire way. Union Pacific set the schedules and U.P. officers at Wood Street (?) managed the terminal operation for these trains. Just exactly what was the arrangement and how did it work?
QUOTE: Originally posted by Bob-Fryml In 1972 the C.& N.W. went "Employee Owned." Financially, during the four or five years of employee ownership, the railroad lived pretty much a hand-to-mouth existence and worked extremely hard to bring whatever pennies it could to the bottom line. When the railroad went into the power market it largely purchased second hand units. Rail and crosstie replacements were abysmally low. But here's the amazing part: a $10,000 investment on the day the company went "Employee Owned" was worth a cool million the day the company went public again. Given the generally mediocre condition of the property and all of the moribund branchlines the company was saddled with, to my way of thinking there is no way on God's green earth that any rational person could accept that the value of C.& N.W. stock could increase a hundred fold in such a short period of time. If there was ever an example of irrational exuberance, this was it!
QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 "The Northwestern" by Roger Grant. Excellent book. Roger Grant is a very good author and I have read several of his books. CC
QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 Roger Grant books that I have read are the Northwestern, The Corn Belt Route (Chicago Great Western) and a book on the Erie / Erie-Lackawana. I think that there are a few more. CC
Originally posted by Murphy Siding Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:27 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed The ICC wanted competition in the basin so they picked the CNW since they had the "cowboy" line in Wyoming. At 1st the CNW was to extend the "cowboy line. Then the UPRR said they would build a connector to accept the coal trains & CNW being strapped for $$$$ accepted less revenue to have the coal routed CNW then UPRR then CNW again in eastern Nebraska. I know this cause I was doing biz with CNW at the time I was told to buy CNW stock since once the announcement was made CNW would go higher. Today I am a very happy fellow for that decision. [:o)][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding I've read this a couple times of on this message board, that *The Government* asked CNW to go into the Powder River Basin. I've yet to see it in any book though. (?) Logically, why wouldn't the ICC have asked a railroad with stronger financial standing to do it? Especially, if one could be allready found in Wyoming? (UP)? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:44 PM I'm just giving you the story. You would have ask the ICC why they chose CNW over UPRR. It maybe the data base for ICC does not go back that far but it was in the mid 70s & I guess you can go to a Chicago library & go thru the archives & I am sure you will find it. Maybe you can archive one of the Chicago newspaper for that era also. Something like that that was a life changing experience as I wrote you you tend to remember. I also remember one of the CNW VPs bought himself a ring that would make a SB ring look small. I still even remember that person name[:p][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:46 PM Because they were afraid that Up was already too powerful. I think this was during a Democratic Administration, also, and despite Averal Harriman having served a Democratic President (Truman) the UP has generally identified with the Rps., if my memory is correct. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:47 PM In the ICC eyes I would suspect/guess due to CNW ownership of the"cowboy" line which was also in Wyoming the ICC considered them a "Wyoming" carrier like the UPRR. [:o)][:p] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:57 PM Proviso Yard's name had little to do with Larry Provo and predated his top job. It was simply a contracton of the words "provisions" or "providing", that this was to be the yard that would provide America with a large amount of goods by handling a whale of a percentage of the nation's freight. Heineman streamlined that commuter operations and drastically reduced its operating costs by dieselization, largely made possible by transferring diesels from long distance and country plug passsenger services that he fought (successfully) to discontinue, and by double deck coaches and push pull cab cars which cut some 60% of terminal costs. At the same time this presented a slick new image for the Chicago financial types that commuted on the Northwestern trains. The demise of the C&AE and CNS&M interurubans added more business of course and compensated for the loss of bussiness from the express highway system. He tried to maintain that he actually had a positive cash flow from the commuter business, the only railroad in the USA that could make that statement, but of course this discounted the depreciation of stations and part of the right-of-way. Reply zardoz Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Kenosha, WI 6,567 posts Posted by zardoz on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 1:01 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What was the CNW 's biggest legacy that it left to UP, and to American railroading in general? The mystery of why they operated left-handed. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 1:11 PM Well supposely that mystery was solved some time ago something do with ice at the passenger stations. You do know that the Cajon pass trains operate exactly the same way as the CNW trains used to?. [:o)][:p] Originally posted by zardoz Originally posted by Murphy Siding Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply wctransfer Member sinceFebruary 2005 From: New Brighton, Minnesota 1,493 posts Posted by wctransfer on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 3:21 PM Well, i have always liked the CNW, and just wondering if people want to talk abotut the CNW in St. Paul? Also, just food for thought, what was your favorite paintscheme the CNW had. I liked the regular ones, like on the SD40-2's and GP40's. Alec Check out my pics! [url="http://wctransfer.rrpicturearchives.net/"] http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=8714 Reply jeffhergert Member sinceMarch 2003 From: Central Iowa 6,899 posts Posted by jeffhergert on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 4:23 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What was the CNW 's biggest legacy that it left to UP, and to American railroading in general? The mystery of why they operated left-handed. I acquired some old CNW employee system time tables recently. Reading thru some of them I came across a few short stretches of double track where it stated, "Trains will keep to the right." I'd have to go look, but I think it was on the line in Wisconsin near Altoona. Jeff Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 20, 2005 7:11 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed The ICC wanted competition in the basin so they picked the CNW since they had the "cowboy" line in Wyoming. At 1st the CNW was to extend the "cowboy line. Then the UPRR said they would build a connector to accept the coal trains & CNW being strapped for $$$$ accepted less revenue to have the coal routed CNW then UPRR then CNW again in eastern Nebraska. I know this cause I was doing biz with CNW at the time I was told to buy CNW stock since once the announcement was made CNW would go higher. Today I am a very happy fellow for that decision. [:o)][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm not doubting what you say. I'm just wondering why this isn't in any books about CNW?. Wouldn't CNW want the world to know that Uncle Sam begged them to go into PRB? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, October 20, 2005 7:44 AM With respect to lefthand operation on the CNW I believe the story goes like this. Early on when they were single track the railroad built the depots to one side of the tracks. On the Milwaukee, and Wisconsin Divisions it was on the "compass" east side. On the Galena it was "compass" north side. When commuter service had to be increased to the point that double track was required, the only place to put that second track was of course on the side where the depot buildings weren't. The railroad decided to run the trains with the inbound trains on the "Left hand" side so commuters awaiting the arrival of their train would have the benifit of a depot building, thus the left handed operation throughout the system. However, up in Wisconsin where trains operated over subsidiary Chicago, Minneapolis, St Paul and Omaha, trains were operated "Right-handed." It used to be an old story that the railroad was owned by the English causing the unusual operation. Mitch Reply Edit spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Thursday, October 20, 2005 8:29 AM Again I think your question can only be answered by a 70s VP from the CNW or a former 70s ICC member. Doubt that either exists on this forum. You can also research the BNRR records as they were very opposed to the ICC allowing the CNW into the PRB. Did you do a google search on CNW Powder River Coal? I thank my lucky stars that I listened to certain people & the ruling that came down was very favorable to the CNW[:o)][:p] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Thursday, October 20, 2005 8:34 AM I found this by doing a Yahoo search of Chicago Northwestern Powder River Coal http://www.delta.edu/rmmee/cnwrr.html [:o)][:p] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply jeffhergert Member sinceMarch 2003 From: Central Iowa 6,899 posts Posted by jeffhergert on Thursday, October 20, 2005 10:05 AM The Government never "asked" the C&NW to build into the Powder River Basin. The BN was first approached by mining companies to build lines to the mines. The C&NW was approached by some utilities for coal rates from PRB to their plants. The C&NW realized the potential of the coal business and planned their own separate line into the PRB. They approached the BN about building a joint line. The BN at first refused, they didn't want the C&NW in there at all. The ICC wasn't going to approve two parallel lines and urged them to come to a joint agreement for use of a single line. This is what eventually happened. The CNWHS Summer 2004 issue of North Western Lines was devoted to the coal lines in Wyoming. Jeff Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 20, 2005 12:13 PM Thank You Jeff and spbed. That sheds some light on it for me. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Thursday, October 20, 2005 12:49 PM You welcome[:D][:o)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Thursday, October 20, 2005 3:56 PM Dave: I thought Proviso Yard was named after being in Proviso township. Could be wrong about it tho. Local schools there are Proviso East and Proviso West...they are always basketball powerhouses. ed Reply MichaelSol Member sinceOctober 2004 3,190 posts Posted by MichaelSol on Thursday, October 20, 2005 4:06 PM From: Franzosenbush Heritage Society: "Free soil, free speech, free labor, and free men!" This historic slogan resounded throughout the nation in the 1850's. The territories acquired after the war with Mexico had raised a big issue: Slavery had been forbidden under Mexican law. What was its status under American law? Some congressman favored "Squatter Sovereignty" letting the people in each territory settle the question or themselves, but at the time, Congress was split into factions and could not agree. Pennsylvania Representative David Wilmot said, "I move money be granted only if the territory bought with it be free soil, and that slavery be forever excluded from the land." Although he was defeated, the condition he introduced -- his "Proviso" -- was heard as far away as Cook County, Illinois. About 200 inhabitants of Cook County could easily identify with the Free-Soilers because both groups were a combination of small farmers, village merchants, household and mill workers and debtors. The Free-Soilers would be absorbed by the new Republican Party in 1856. Cook County farmers cheered when an act passed in the General Assembly which allowed counties to adopt township rule in 1849. Without hesitation township organization took place and an election for officers was held on April 2, 1850. Phineas Stanton became the first moderator, and A. S. Funston, clerk for the day. Local residents felt the need for their own ordinances for a long time. Cook County had been part of Peoria County until 1831. That same year Chicago became the County Seat of Cook, but it remained difficult to reach due to poor roads. Vandalia, the state capital, was many days away. Many felt local government could best solve its local problems -- one of the biggest problems being poor roads. It was still years from the day when Marion F. Covell (a son Thomas Covell) would provide the materials for passable roads to the entire region. Fifty-two men voted on April 2, 1850, and the newly formed Township acquired a Supervisor, a Clerk, an Assessor, three Commissioners of Highways, two Constables and two Justices of the Peace. The township was named "Taylor" after General Zachary Taylor, a war hero, the current President of the United States. However, he died within a few months on July 9, 1850. Representative Wilmot's "Proviso", no doubt kept alive by the "Underground Railway" established by northern farmers who helped slaves escape from their southern masters, suggested a new name for the township. The following April, the township's name was changed from Taylor to the TOWNSHIP OF PROVISO." Interesting history. Best regards, Michael Sol Reply CShaveRR Member sinceJune 2001 From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois 13,681 posts Posted by CShaveRR on Saturday, January 14, 2006 4:33 PM Yes, Proviso Township was there well before the yard. There are (or were) plenty of places in the township that carried the name as part of their titles. Portions of Proviso Yard (Yard 9, specifically) are in Leyden Township. And the western end of the yard is actually in York Township, DuPage County. Carl Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!) CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM) Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, January 14, 2006 11:41 PM Isn't part of in Elmhurst? If CNW had the $ to rebuild the Cowboy line would of UP Brought them up? Reply Edit fuzzybroken Member sinceOctober 2002 From: Milwaukee, WI, US 1,384 posts Posted by fuzzybroken on Sunday, January 15, 2006 1:23 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Did CNW have any tunnels online? Only one that I know of. It was on the Madison to LaCrosse line in Wisconsin. The tunnel was near Sparta & Elroy (somewhere in that area). The line is no longer a through route and service ends at Reedsburg. The line is now operated by Wisconsin Southern. CC There are three tunnels on the line between Elroy and Sparta. I say "are" because the "line" is still in use, as the Sparta-Elroy Bike Trail. I biked almost the entire thing about half a life ago, and there were three tunnels that I had to stop and walk through (trail rules). It was a lot of fun, and I'll have to bike it again some time! QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 The C&NW gained entry into Kansas City by aquiring the CGW. They also got rid of a competitor and gained acess to more customers. They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. Additionally, most of the Twin Cities-Kansas City CGW main was abandoned when C&NW won the bidding for the ex-Rock Spine Line. QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 In Illinois very little of the CGW was kept. What was kept and used by the CNW/UP is slowly fading into history. Mostly as industrial spurs, from what I have noticed in my SPV atlas. [:(] QUOTE: Originally posted by cnwrwyman It is located in Proviso township so I suppose it was named after that.I have a question about Butler Yard in Milwaukee. While the Village of Butler celebrates itself as a railroad town, the only trackage actually inside its borders consists of some very lightly-used industrial trackage, while "Butler" Yard is within the City of Milwaukee, and appears to have been within the townships of Granville and Wauwatosa. Can anyone supply any further historical information about Butler? -Fuzzy Fuzzy World 3 Reply CShaveRR Member sinceJune 2001 From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois 13,681 posts Posted by CShaveRR on Sunday, January 15, 2006 4:39 PM Yes, the west tip of Proviso is in Elmhurst, which is in York Township, DuPage County (as opposed to Cook County, where the rest of the yard is). Carl Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!) CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM) Reply 12345 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. 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Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub
QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed The ICC wanted competition in the basin so they picked the CNW since they had the "cowboy" line in Wyoming. At 1st the CNW was to extend the "cowboy line. Then the UPRR said they would build a connector to accept the coal trains & CNW being strapped for $$$$ accepted less revenue to have the coal routed CNW then UPRR then CNW again in eastern Nebraska. I know this cause I was doing biz with CNW at the time I was told to buy CNW stock since once the announcement was made CNW would go higher. Today I am a very happy fellow for that decision. [:o)][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding I've read this a couple times of on this message board, that *The Government* asked CNW to go into the Powder River Basin. I've yet to see it in any book though. (?) Logically, why wouldn't the ICC have asked a railroad with stronger financial standing to do it? Especially, if one could be allready found in Wyoming? (UP)? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:44 PM I'm just giving you the story. You would have ask the ICC why they chose CNW over UPRR. It maybe the data base for ICC does not go back that far but it was in the mid 70s & I guess you can go to a Chicago library & go thru the archives & I am sure you will find it. Maybe you can archive one of the Chicago newspaper for that era also. Something like that that was a life changing experience as I wrote you you tend to remember. I also remember one of the CNW VPs bought himself a ring that would make a SB ring look small. I still even remember that person name[:p][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:46 PM Because they were afraid that Up was already too powerful. I think this was during a Democratic Administration, also, and despite Averal Harriman having served a Democratic President (Truman) the UP has generally identified with the Rps., if my memory is correct. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:47 PM In the ICC eyes I would suspect/guess due to CNW ownership of the"cowboy" line which was also in Wyoming the ICC considered them a "Wyoming" carrier like the UPRR. [:o)][:p] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:57 PM Proviso Yard's name had little to do with Larry Provo and predated his top job. It was simply a contracton of the words "provisions" or "providing", that this was to be the yard that would provide America with a large amount of goods by handling a whale of a percentage of the nation's freight. Heineman streamlined that commuter operations and drastically reduced its operating costs by dieselization, largely made possible by transferring diesels from long distance and country plug passsenger services that he fought (successfully) to discontinue, and by double deck coaches and push pull cab cars which cut some 60% of terminal costs. At the same time this presented a slick new image for the Chicago financial types that commuted on the Northwestern trains. The demise of the C&AE and CNS&M interurubans added more business of course and compensated for the loss of bussiness from the express highway system. He tried to maintain that he actually had a positive cash flow from the commuter business, the only railroad in the USA that could make that statement, but of course this discounted the depreciation of stations and part of the right-of-way. Reply zardoz Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Kenosha, WI 6,567 posts Posted by zardoz on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 1:01 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What was the CNW 's biggest legacy that it left to UP, and to American railroading in general? The mystery of why they operated left-handed. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 1:11 PM Well supposely that mystery was solved some time ago something do with ice at the passenger stations. You do know that the Cajon pass trains operate exactly the same way as the CNW trains used to?. [:o)][:p] Originally posted by zardoz Originally posted by Murphy Siding Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply wctransfer Member sinceFebruary 2005 From: New Brighton, Minnesota 1,493 posts Posted by wctransfer on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 3:21 PM Well, i have always liked the CNW, and just wondering if people want to talk abotut the CNW in St. Paul? Also, just food for thought, what was your favorite paintscheme the CNW had. I liked the regular ones, like on the SD40-2's and GP40's. Alec Check out my pics! [url="http://wctransfer.rrpicturearchives.net/"] http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=8714 Reply jeffhergert Member sinceMarch 2003 From: Central Iowa 6,899 posts Posted by jeffhergert on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 4:23 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What was the CNW 's biggest legacy that it left to UP, and to American railroading in general? The mystery of why they operated left-handed. I acquired some old CNW employee system time tables recently. Reading thru some of them I came across a few short stretches of double track where it stated, "Trains will keep to the right." I'd have to go look, but I think it was on the line in Wisconsin near Altoona. Jeff Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 20, 2005 7:11 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed The ICC wanted competition in the basin so they picked the CNW since they had the "cowboy" line in Wyoming. At 1st the CNW was to extend the "cowboy line. Then the UPRR said they would build a connector to accept the coal trains & CNW being strapped for $$$$ accepted less revenue to have the coal routed CNW then UPRR then CNW again in eastern Nebraska. I know this cause I was doing biz with CNW at the time I was told to buy CNW stock since once the announcement was made CNW would go higher. Today I am a very happy fellow for that decision. [:o)][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm not doubting what you say. I'm just wondering why this isn't in any books about CNW?. Wouldn't CNW want the world to know that Uncle Sam begged them to go into PRB? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, October 20, 2005 7:44 AM With respect to lefthand operation on the CNW I believe the story goes like this. Early on when they were single track the railroad built the depots to one side of the tracks. On the Milwaukee, and Wisconsin Divisions it was on the "compass" east side. On the Galena it was "compass" north side. When commuter service had to be increased to the point that double track was required, the only place to put that second track was of course on the side where the depot buildings weren't. The railroad decided to run the trains with the inbound trains on the "Left hand" side so commuters awaiting the arrival of their train would have the benifit of a depot building, thus the left handed operation throughout the system. However, up in Wisconsin where trains operated over subsidiary Chicago, Minneapolis, St Paul and Omaha, trains were operated "Right-handed." It used to be an old story that the railroad was owned by the English causing the unusual operation. Mitch Reply Edit spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Thursday, October 20, 2005 8:29 AM Again I think your question can only be answered by a 70s VP from the CNW or a former 70s ICC member. Doubt that either exists on this forum. You can also research the BNRR records as they were very opposed to the ICC allowing the CNW into the PRB. Did you do a google search on CNW Powder River Coal? I thank my lucky stars that I listened to certain people & the ruling that came down was very favorable to the CNW[:o)][:p] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Thursday, October 20, 2005 8:34 AM I found this by doing a Yahoo search of Chicago Northwestern Powder River Coal http://www.delta.edu/rmmee/cnwrr.html [:o)][:p] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply jeffhergert Member sinceMarch 2003 From: Central Iowa 6,899 posts Posted by jeffhergert on Thursday, October 20, 2005 10:05 AM The Government never "asked" the C&NW to build into the Powder River Basin. The BN was first approached by mining companies to build lines to the mines. The C&NW was approached by some utilities for coal rates from PRB to their plants. The C&NW realized the potential of the coal business and planned their own separate line into the PRB. They approached the BN about building a joint line. The BN at first refused, they didn't want the C&NW in there at all. The ICC wasn't going to approve two parallel lines and urged them to come to a joint agreement for use of a single line. This is what eventually happened. The CNWHS Summer 2004 issue of North Western Lines was devoted to the coal lines in Wyoming. Jeff Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 20, 2005 12:13 PM Thank You Jeff and spbed. That sheds some light on it for me. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Thursday, October 20, 2005 12:49 PM You welcome[:D][:o)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Thursday, October 20, 2005 3:56 PM Dave: I thought Proviso Yard was named after being in Proviso township. Could be wrong about it tho. Local schools there are Proviso East and Proviso West...they are always basketball powerhouses. ed Reply MichaelSol Member sinceOctober 2004 3,190 posts Posted by MichaelSol on Thursday, October 20, 2005 4:06 PM From: Franzosenbush Heritage Society: "Free soil, free speech, free labor, and free men!" This historic slogan resounded throughout the nation in the 1850's. The territories acquired after the war with Mexico had raised a big issue: Slavery had been forbidden under Mexican law. What was its status under American law? Some congressman favored "Squatter Sovereignty" letting the people in each territory settle the question or themselves, but at the time, Congress was split into factions and could not agree. Pennsylvania Representative David Wilmot said, "I move money be granted only if the territory bought with it be free soil, and that slavery be forever excluded from the land." Although he was defeated, the condition he introduced -- his "Proviso" -- was heard as far away as Cook County, Illinois. About 200 inhabitants of Cook County could easily identify with the Free-Soilers because both groups were a combination of small farmers, village merchants, household and mill workers and debtors. The Free-Soilers would be absorbed by the new Republican Party in 1856. Cook County farmers cheered when an act passed in the General Assembly which allowed counties to adopt township rule in 1849. Without hesitation township organization took place and an election for officers was held on April 2, 1850. Phineas Stanton became the first moderator, and A. S. Funston, clerk for the day. Local residents felt the need for their own ordinances for a long time. Cook County had been part of Peoria County until 1831. That same year Chicago became the County Seat of Cook, but it remained difficult to reach due to poor roads. Vandalia, the state capital, was many days away. Many felt local government could best solve its local problems -- one of the biggest problems being poor roads. It was still years from the day when Marion F. Covell (a son Thomas Covell) would provide the materials for passable roads to the entire region. Fifty-two men voted on April 2, 1850, and the newly formed Township acquired a Supervisor, a Clerk, an Assessor, three Commissioners of Highways, two Constables and two Justices of the Peace. The township was named "Taylor" after General Zachary Taylor, a war hero, the current President of the United States. However, he died within a few months on July 9, 1850. Representative Wilmot's "Proviso", no doubt kept alive by the "Underground Railway" established by northern farmers who helped slaves escape from their southern masters, suggested a new name for the township. The following April, the township's name was changed from Taylor to the TOWNSHIP OF PROVISO." Interesting history. Best regards, Michael Sol Reply CShaveRR Member sinceJune 2001 From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois 13,681 posts Posted by CShaveRR on Saturday, January 14, 2006 4:33 PM Yes, Proviso Township was there well before the yard. There are (or were) plenty of places in the township that carried the name as part of their titles. Portions of Proviso Yard (Yard 9, specifically) are in Leyden Township. And the western end of the yard is actually in York Township, DuPage County. Carl Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!) CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM) Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, January 14, 2006 11:41 PM Isn't part of in Elmhurst? If CNW had the $ to rebuild the Cowboy line would of UP Brought them up? Reply Edit fuzzybroken Member sinceOctober 2002 From: Milwaukee, WI, US 1,384 posts Posted by fuzzybroken on Sunday, January 15, 2006 1:23 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Did CNW have any tunnels online? Only one that I know of. It was on the Madison to LaCrosse line in Wisconsin. The tunnel was near Sparta & Elroy (somewhere in that area). The line is no longer a through route and service ends at Reedsburg. The line is now operated by Wisconsin Southern. CC There are three tunnels on the line between Elroy and Sparta. I say "are" because the "line" is still in use, as the Sparta-Elroy Bike Trail. I biked almost the entire thing about half a life ago, and there were three tunnels that I had to stop and walk through (trail rules). It was a lot of fun, and I'll have to bike it again some time! QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 The C&NW gained entry into Kansas City by aquiring the CGW. They also got rid of a competitor and gained acess to more customers. They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. Additionally, most of the Twin Cities-Kansas City CGW main was abandoned when C&NW won the bidding for the ex-Rock Spine Line. QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 In Illinois very little of the CGW was kept. What was kept and used by the CNW/UP is slowly fading into history. Mostly as industrial spurs, from what I have noticed in my SPV atlas. [:(] QUOTE: Originally posted by cnwrwyman It is located in Proviso township so I suppose it was named after that.I have a question about Butler Yard in Milwaukee. While the Village of Butler celebrates itself as a railroad town, the only trackage actually inside its borders consists of some very lightly-used industrial trackage, while "Butler" Yard is within the City of Milwaukee, and appears to have been within the townships of Granville and Wauwatosa. Can anyone supply any further historical information about Butler? -Fuzzy Fuzzy World 3 Reply CShaveRR Member sinceJune 2001 From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois 13,681 posts Posted by CShaveRR on Sunday, January 15, 2006 4:39 PM Yes, the west tip of Proviso is in Elmhurst, which is in York Township, DuPage County (as opposed to Cook County, where the rest of the yard is). Carl Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!) CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM) Reply 12345 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. 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Originally posted by Murphy Siding
Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:46 PM Because they were afraid that Up was already too powerful. I think this was during a Democratic Administration, also, and despite Averal Harriman having served a Democratic President (Truman) the UP has generally identified with the Rps., if my memory is correct. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:47 PM In the ICC eyes I would suspect/guess due to CNW ownership of the"cowboy" line which was also in Wyoming the ICC considered them a "Wyoming" carrier like the UPRR. [:o)][:p] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:57 PM Proviso Yard's name had little to do with Larry Provo and predated his top job. It was simply a contracton of the words "provisions" or "providing", that this was to be the yard that would provide America with a large amount of goods by handling a whale of a percentage of the nation's freight. Heineman streamlined that commuter operations and drastically reduced its operating costs by dieselization, largely made possible by transferring diesels from long distance and country plug passsenger services that he fought (successfully) to discontinue, and by double deck coaches and push pull cab cars which cut some 60% of terminal costs. At the same time this presented a slick new image for the Chicago financial types that commuted on the Northwestern trains. The demise of the C&AE and CNS&M interurubans added more business of course and compensated for the loss of bussiness from the express highway system. He tried to maintain that he actually had a positive cash flow from the commuter business, the only railroad in the USA that could make that statement, but of course this discounted the depreciation of stations and part of the right-of-way. Reply zardoz Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Kenosha, WI 6,567 posts Posted by zardoz on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 1:01 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What was the CNW 's biggest legacy that it left to UP, and to American railroading in general? The mystery of why they operated left-handed. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 1:11 PM Well supposely that mystery was solved some time ago something do with ice at the passenger stations. You do know that the Cajon pass trains operate exactly the same way as the CNW trains used to?. [:o)][:p] Originally posted by zardoz Originally posted by Murphy Siding Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply wctransfer Member sinceFebruary 2005 From: New Brighton, Minnesota 1,493 posts Posted by wctransfer on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 3:21 PM Well, i have always liked the CNW, and just wondering if people want to talk abotut the CNW in St. Paul? Also, just food for thought, what was your favorite paintscheme the CNW had. I liked the regular ones, like on the SD40-2's and GP40's. Alec Check out my pics! [url="http://wctransfer.rrpicturearchives.net/"] http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=8714 Reply jeffhergert Member sinceMarch 2003 From: Central Iowa 6,899 posts Posted by jeffhergert on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 4:23 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What was the CNW 's biggest legacy that it left to UP, and to American railroading in general? The mystery of why they operated left-handed. I acquired some old CNW employee system time tables recently. Reading thru some of them I came across a few short stretches of double track where it stated, "Trains will keep to the right." I'd have to go look, but I think it was on the line in Wisconsin near Altoona. Jeff Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 20, 2005 7:11 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed The ICC wanted competition in the basin so they picked the CNW since they had the "cowboy" line in Wyoming. At 1st the CNW was to extend the "cowboy line. Then the UPRR said they would build a connector to accept the coal trains & CNW being strapped for $$$$ accepted less revenue to have the coal routed CNW then UPRR then CNW again in eastern Nebraska. I know this cause I was doing biz with CNW at the time I was told to buy CNW stock since once the announcement was made CNW would go higher. Today I am a very happy fellow for that decision. [:o)][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm not doubting what you say. I'm just wondering why this isn't in any books about CNW?. Wouldn't CNW want the world to know that Uncle Sam begged them to go into PRB? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, October 20, 2005 7:44 AM With respect to lefthand operation on the CNW I believe the story goes like this. Early on when they were single track the railroad built the depots to one side of the tracks. On the Milwaukee, and Wisconsin Divisions it was on the "compass" east side. On the Galena it was "compass" north side. When commuter service had to be increased to the point that double track was required, the only place to put that second track was of course on the side where the depot buildings weren't. The railroad decided to run the trains with the inbound trains on the "Left hand" side so commuters awaiting the arrival of their train would have the benifit of a depot building, thus the left handed operation throughout the system. However, up in Wisconsin where trains operated over subsidiary Chicago, Minneapolis, St Paul and Omaha, trains were operated "Right-handed." It used to be an old story that the railroad was owned by the English causing the unusual operation. Mitch Reply Edit spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Thursday, October 20, 2005 8:29 AM Again I think your question can only be answered by a 70s VP from the CNW or a former 70s ICC member. Doubt that either exists on this forum. You can also research the BNRR records as they were very opposed to the ICC allowing the CNW into the PRB. Did you do a google search on CNW Powder River Coal? I thank my lucky stars that I listened to certain people & the ruling that came down was very favorable to the CNW[:o)][:p] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Thursday, October 20, 2005 8:34 AM I found this by doing a Yahoo search of Chicago Northwestern Powder River Coal http://www.delta.edu/rmmee/cnwrr.html [:o)][:p] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply jeffhergert Member sinceMarch 2003 From: Central Iowa 6,899 posts Posted by jeffhergert on Thursday, October 20, 2005 10:05 AM The Government never "asked" the C&NW to build into the Powder River Basin. The BN was first approached by mining companies to build lines to the mines. The C&NW was approached by some utilities for coal rates from PRB to their plants. The C&NW realized the potential of the coal business and planned their own separate line into the PRB. They approached the BN about building a joint line. The BN at first refused, they didn't want the C&NW in there at all. The ICC wasn't going to approve two parallel lines and urged them to come to a joint agreement for use of a single line. This is what eventually happened. The CNWHS Summer 2004 issue of North Western Lines was devoted to the coal lines in Wyoming. Jeff Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 20, 2005 12:13 PM Thank You Jeff and spbed. That sheds some light on it for me. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Thursday, October 20, 2005 12:49 PM You welcome[:D][:o)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Thursday, October 20, 2005 3:56 PM Dave: I thought Proviso Yard was named after being in Proviso township. Could be wrong about it tho. Local schools there are Proviso East and Proviso West...they are always basketball powerhouses. ed Reply MichaelSol Member sinceOctober 2004 3,190 posts Posted by MichaelSol on Thursday, October 20, 2005 4:06 PM From: Franzosenbush Heritage Society: "Free soil, free speech, free labor, and free men!" This historic slogan resounded throughout the nation in the 1850's. The territories acquired after the war with Mexico had raised a big issue: Slavery had been forbidden under Mexican law. What was its status under American law? Some congressman favored "Squatter Sovereignty" letting the people in each territory settle the question or themselves, but at the time, Congress was split into factions and could not agree. Pennsylvania Representative David Wilmot said, "I move money be granted only if the territory bought with it be free soil, and that slavery be forever excluded from the land." Although he was defeated, the condition he introduced -- his "Proviso" -- was heard as far away as Cook County, Illinois. About 200 inhabitants of Cook County could easily identify with the Free-Soilers because both groups were a combination of small farmers, village merchants, household and mill workers and debtors. The Free-Soilers would be absorbed by the new Republican Party in 1856. Cook County farmers cheered when an act passed in the General Assembly which allowed counties to adopt township rule in 1849. Without hesitation township organization took place and an election for officers was held on April 2, 1850. Phineas Stanton became the first moderator, and A. S. Funston, clerk for the day. Local residents felt the need for their own ordinances for a long time. Cook County had been part of Peoria County until 1831. That same year Chicago became the County Seat of Cook, but it remained difficult to reach due to poor roads. Vandalia, the state capital, was many days away. Many felt local government could best solve its local problems -- one of the biggest problems being poor roads. It was still years from the day when Marion F. Covell (a son Thomas Covell) would provide the materials for passable roads to the entire region. Fifty-two men voted on April 2, 1850, and the newly formed Township acquired a Supervisor, a Clerk, an Assessor, three Commissioners of Highways, two Constables and two Justices of the Peace. The township was named "Taylor" after General Zachary Taylor, a war hero, the current President of the United States. However, he died within a few months on July 9, 1850. Representative Wilmot's "Proviso", no doubt kept alive by the "Underground Railway" established by northern farmers who helped slaves escape from their southern masters, suggested a new name for the township. The following April, the township's name was changed from Taylor to the TOWNSHIP OF PROVISO." Interesting history. Best regards, Michael Sol Reply CShaveRR Member sinceJune 2001 From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois 13,681 posts Posted by CShaveRR on Saturday, January 14, 2006 4:33 PM Yes, Proviso Township was there well before the yard. There are (or were) plenty of places in the township that carried the name as part of their titles. Portions of Proviso Yard (Yard 9, specifically) are in Leyden Township. And the western end of the yard is actually in York Township, DuPage County. Carl Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!) CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM) Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, January 14, 2006 11:41 PM Isn't part of in Elmhurst? If CNW had the $ to rebuild the Cowboy line would of UP Brought them up? Reply Edit fuzzybroken Member sinceOctober 2002 From: Milwaukee, WI, US 1,384 posts Posted by fuzzybroken on Sunday, January 15, 2006 1:23 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Did CNW have any tunnels online? Only one that I know of. It was on the Madison to LaCrosse line in Wisconsin. The tunnel was near Sparta & Elroy (somewhere in that area). The line is no longer a through route and service ends at Reedsburg. The line is now operated by Wisconsin Southern. CC There are three tunnels on the line between Elroy and Sparta. I say "are" because the "line" is still in use, as the Sparta-Elroy Bike Trail. I biked almost the entire thing about half a life ago, and there were three tunnels that I had to stop and walk through (trail rules). It was a lot of fun, and I'll have to bike it again some time! QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 The C&NW gained entry into Kansas City by aquiring the CGW. They also got rid of a competitor and gained acess to more customers. They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. Additionally, most of the Twin Cities-Kansas City CGW main was abandoned when C&NW won the bidding for the ex-Rock Spine Line. QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 In Illinois very little of the CGW was kept. What was kept and used by the CNW/UP is slowly fading into history. Mostly as industrial spurs, from what I have noticed in my SPV atlas. [:(] QUOTE: Originally posted by cnwrwyman It is located in Proviso township so I suppose it was named after that.I have a question about Butler Yard in Milwaukee. While the Village of Butler celebrates itself as a railroad town, the only trackage actually inside its borders consists of some very lightly-used industrial trackage, while "Butler" Yard is within the City of Milwaukee, and appears to have been within the townships of Granville and Wauwatosa. Can anyone supply any further historical information about Butler? -Fuzzy Fuzzy World 3 Reply CShaveRR Member sinceJune 2001 From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois 13,681 posts Posted by CShaveRR on Sunday, January 15, 2006 4:39 PM Yes, the west tip of Proviso is in Elmhurst, which is in York Township, DuPage County (as opposed to Cook County, where the rest of the yard is). Carl Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!) CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM) Reply 12345 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Originally posted by spbed Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:46 PM Because they were afraid that Up was already too powerful. I think this was during a Democratic Administration, also, and despite Averal Harriman having served a Democratic President (Truman) the UP has generally identified with the Rps., if my memory is correct. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:47 PM In the ICC eyes I would suspect/guess due to CNW ownership of the"cowboy" line which was also in Wyoming the ICC considered them a "Wyoming" carrier like the UPRR. [:o)][:p] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:57 PM Proviso Yard's name had little to do with Larry Provo and predated his top job. It was simply a contracton of the words "provisions" or "providing", that this was to be the yard that would provide America with a large amount of goods by handling a whale of a percentage of the nation's freight. Heineman streamlined that commuter operations and drastically reduced its operating costs by dieselization, largely made possible by transferring diesels from long distance and country plug passsenger services that he fought (successfully) to discontinue, and by double deck coaches and push pull cab cars which cut some 60% of terminal costs. At the same time this presented a slick new image for the Chicago financial types that commuted on the Northwestern trains. The demise of the C&AE and CNS&M interurubans added more business of course and compensated for the loss of bussiness from the express highway system. He tried to maintain that he actually had a positive cash flow from the commuter business, the only railroad in the USA that could make that statement, but of course this discounted the depreciation of stations and part of the right-of-way. Reply zardoz Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Kenosha, WI 6,567 posts Posted by zardoz on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 1:01 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What was the CNW 's biggest legacy that it left to UP, and to American railroading in general? The mystery of why they operated left-handed. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 1:11 PM Well supposely that mystery was solved some time ago something do with ice at the passenger stations. You do know that the Cajon pass trains operate exactly the same way as the CNW trains used to?. [:o)][:p] Originally posted by zardoz Originally posted by Murphy Siding Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply wctransfer Member sinceFebruary 2005 From: New Brighton, Minnesota 1,493 posts Posted by wctransfer on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 3:21 PM Well, i have always liked the CNW, and just wondering if people want to talk abotut the CNW in St. Paul? Also, just food for thought, what was your favorite paintscheme the CNW had. I liked the regular ones, like on the SD40-2's and GP40's. Alec Check out my pics! [url="http://wctransfer.rrpicturearchives.net/"] http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=8714 Reply jeffhergert Member sinceMarch 2003 From: Central Iowa 6,899 posts Posted by jeffhergert on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 4:23 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What was the CNW 's biggest legacy that it left to UP, and to American railroading in general? The mystery of why they operated left-handed. I acquired some old CNW employee system time tables recently. Reading thru some of them I came across a few short stretches of double track where it stated, "Trains will keep to the right." I'd have to go look, but I think it was on the line in Wisconsin near Altoona. Jeff Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 20, 2005 7:11 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed The ICC wanted competition in the basin so they picked the CNW since they had the "cowboy" line in Wyoming. At 1st the CNW was to extend the "cowboy line. Then the UPRR said they would build a connector to accept the coal trains & CNW being strapped for $$$$ accepted less revenue to have the coal routed CNW then UPRR then CNW again in eastern Nebraska. I know this cause I was doing biz with CNW at the time I was told to buy CNW stock since once the announcement was made CNW would go higher. Today I am a very happy fellow for that decision. [:o)][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm not doubting what you say. I'm just wondering why this isn't in any books about CNW?. Wouldn't CNW want the world to know that Uncle Sam begged them to go into PRB? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, October 20, 2005 7:44 AM With respect to lefthand operation on the CNW I believe the story goes like this. Early on when they were single track the railroad built the depots to one side of the tracks. On the Milwaukee, and Wisconsin Divisions it was on the "compass" east side. On the Galena it was "compass" north side. When commuter service had to be increased to the point that double track was required, the only place to put that second track was of course on the side where the depot buildings weren't. The railroad decided to run the trains with the inbound trains on the "Left hand" side so commuters awaiting the arrival of their train would have the benifit of a depot building, thus the left handed operation throughout the system. However, up in Wisconsin where trains operated over subsidiary Chicago, Minneapolis, St Paul and Omaha, trains were operated "Right-handed." It used to be an old story that the railroad was owned by the English causing the unusual operation. Mitch Reply Edit spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Thursday, October 20, 2005 8:29 AM Again I think your question can only be answered by a 70s VP from the CNW or a former 70s ICC member. Doubt that either exists on this forum. You can also research the BNRR records as they were very opposed to the ICC allowing the CNW into the PRB. Did you do a google search on CNW Powder River Coal? I thank my lucky stars that I listened to certain people & the ruling that came down was very favorable to the CNW[:o)][:p] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Thursday, October 20, 2005 8:34 AM I found this by doing a Yahoo search of Chicago Northwestern Powder River Coal http://www.delta.edu/rmmee/cnwrr.html [:o)][:p] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply jeffhergert Member sinceMarch 2003 From: Central Iowa 6,899 posts Posted by jeffhergert on Thursday, October 20, 2005 10:05 AM The Government never "asked" the C&NW to build into the Powder River Basin. The BN was first approached by mining companies to build lines to the mines. The C&NW was approached by some utilities for coal rates from PRB to their plants. The C&NW realized the potential of the coal business and planned their own separate line into the PRB. They approached the BN about building a joint line. The BN at first refused, they didn't want the C&NW in there at all. The ICC wasn't going to approve two parallel lines and urged them to come to a joint agreement for use of a single line. This is what eventually happened. The CNWHS Summer 2004 issue of North Western Lines was devoted to the coal lines in Wyoming. Jeff Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 20, 2005 12:13 PM Thank You Jeff and spbed. That sheds some light on it for me. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Thursday, October 20, 2005 12:49 PM You welcome[:D][:o)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Thursday, October 20, 2005 3:56 PM Dave: I thought Proviso Yard was named after being in Proviso township. Could be wrong about it tho. Local schools there are Proviso East and Proviso West...they are always basketball powerhouses. ed Reply MichaelSol Member sinceOctober 2004 3,190 posts Posted by MichaelSol on Thursday, October 20, 2005 4:06 PM From: Franzosenbush Heritage Society: "Free soil, free speech, free labor, and free men!" This historic slogan resounded throughout the nation in the 1850's. The territories acquired after the war with Mexico had raised a big issue: Slavery had been forbidden under Mexican law. What was its status under American law? Some congressman favored "Squatter Sovereignty" letting the people in each territory settle the question or themselves, but at the time, Congress was split into factions and could not agree. Pennsylvania Representative David Wilmot said, "I move money be granted only if the territory bought with it be free soil, and that slavery be forever excluded from the land." Although he was defeated, the condition he introduced -- his "Proviso" -- was heard as far away as Cook County, Illinois. About 200 inhabitants of Cook County could easily identify with the Free-Soilers because both groups were a combination of small farmers, village merchants, household and mill workers and debtors. The Free-Soilers would be absorbed by the new Republican Party in 1856. Cook County farmers cheered when an act passed in the General Assembly which allowed counties to adopt township rule in 1849. Without hesitation township organization took place and an election for officers was held on April 2, 1850. Phineas Stanton became the first moderator, and A. S. Funston, clerk for the day. Local residents felt the need for their own ordinances for a long time. Cook County had been part of Peoria County until 1831. That same year Chicago became the County Seat of Cook, but it remained difficult to reach due to poor roads. Vandalia, the state capital, was many days away. Many felt local government could best solve its local problems -- one of the biggest problems being poor roads. It was still years from the day when Marion F. Covell (a son Thomas Covell) would provide the materials for passable roads to the entire region. Fifty-two men voted on April 2, 1850, and the newly formed Township acquired a Supervisor, a Clerk, an Assessor, three Commissioners of Highways, two Constables and two Justices of the Peace. The township was named "Taylor" after General Zachary Taylor, a war hero, the current President of the United States. However, he died within a few months on July 9, 1850. Representative Wilmot's "Proviso", no doubt kept alive by the "Underground Railway" established by northern farmers who helped slaves escape from their southern masters, suggested a new name for the township. The following April, the township's name was changed from Taylor to the TOWNSHIP OF PROVISO." Interesting history. Best regards, Michael Sol Reply CShaveRR Member sinceJune 2001 From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois 13,681 posts Posted by CShaveRR on Saturday, January 14, 2006 4:33 PM Yes, Proviso Township was there well before the yard. There are (or were) plenty of places in the township that carried the name as part of their titles. Portions of Proviso Yard (Yard 9, specifically) are in Leyden Township. And the western end of the yard is actually in York Township, DuPage County. Carl Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!) CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM) Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, January 14, 2006 11:41 PM Isn't part of in Elmhurst? If CNW had the $ to rebuild the Cowboy line would of UP Brought them up? Reply Edit fuzzybroken Member sinceOctober 2002 From: Milwaukee, WI, US 1,384 posts Posted by fuzzybroken on Sunday, January 15, 2006 1:23 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Did CNW have any tunnels online? Only one that I know of. It was on the Madison to LaCrosse line in Wisconsin. The tunnel was near Sparta & Elroy (somewhere in that area). The line is no longer a through route and service ends at Reedsburg. The line is now operated by Wisconsin Southern. CC There are three tunnels on the line between Elroy and Sparta. I say "are" because the "line" is still in use, as the Sparta-Elroy Bike Trail. I biked almost the entire thing about half a life ago, and there were three tunnels that I had to stop and walk through (trail rules). It was a lot of fun, and I'll have to bike it again some time! QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 The C&NW gained entry into Kansas City by aquiring the CGW. They also got rid of a competitor and gained acess to more customers. They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. Additionally, most of the Twin Cities-Kansas City CGW main was abandoned when C&NW won the bidding for the ex-Rock Spine Line. QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 In Illinois very little of the CGW was kept. What was kept and used by the CNW/UP is slowly fading into history. Mostly as industrial spurs, from what I have noticed in my SPV atlas. [:(] QUOTE: Originally posted by cnwrwyman It is located in Proviso township so I suppose it was named after that.I have a question about Butler Yard in Milwaukee. While the Village of Butler celebrates itself as a railroad town, the only trackage actually inside its borders consists of some very lightly-used industrial trackage, while "Butler" Yard is within the City of Milwaukee, and appears to have been within the townships of Granville and Wauwatosa. Can anyone supply any further historical information about Butler? -Fuzzy Fuzzy World 3 Reply CShaveRR Member sinceJune 2001 From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois 13,681 posts Posted by CShaveRR on Sunday, January 15, 2006 4:39 PM Yes, the west tip of Proviso is in Elmhurst, which is in York Township, DuPage County (as opposed to Cook County, where the rest of the yard is). Carl Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!) CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM) Reply 12345 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:57 PM Proviso Yard's name had little to do with Larry Provo and predated his top job. It was simply a contracton of the words "provisions" or "providing", that this was to be the yard that would provide America with a large amount of goods by handling a whale of a percentage of the nation's freight. Heineman streamlined that commuter operations and drastically reduced its operating costs by dieselization, largely made possible by transferring diesels from long distance and country plug passsenger services that he fought (successfully) to discontinue, and by double deck coaches and push pull cab cars which cut some 60% of terminal costs. At the same time this presented a slick new image for the Chicago financial types that commuted on the Northwestern trains. The demise of the C&AE and CNS&M interurubans added more business of course and compensated for the loss of bussiness from the express highway system. He tried to maintain that he actually had a positive cash flow from the commuter business, the only railroad in the USA that could make that statement, but of course this discounted the depreciation of stations and part of the right-of-way. Reply zardoz Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Kenosha, WI 6,567 posts Posted by zardoz on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 1:01 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What was the CNW 's biggest legacy that it left to UP, and to American railroading in general? The mystery of why they operated left-handed. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 1:11 PM Well supposely that mystery was solved some time ago something do with ice at the passenger stations. You do know that the Cajon pass trains operate exactly the same way as the CNW trains used to?. [:o)][:p] Originally posted by zardoz Originally posted by Murphy Siding Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply wctransfer Member sinceFebruary 2005 From: New Brighton, Minnesota 1,493 posts Posted by wctransfer on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 3:21 PM Well, i have always liked the CNW, and just wondering if people want to talk abotut the CNW in St. Paul? Also, just food for thought, what was your favorite paintscheme the CNW had. I liked the regular ones, like on the SD40-2's and GP40's. Alec Check out my pics! [url="http://wctransfer.rrpicturearchives.net/"] http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=8714 Reply jeffhergert Member sinceMarch 2003 From: Central Iowa 6,899 posts Posted by jeffhergert on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 4:23 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What was the CNW 's biggest legacy that it left to UP, and to American railroading in general? The mystery of why they operated left-handed. I acquired some old CNW employee system time tables recently. Reading thru some of them I came across a few short stretches of double track where it stated, "Trains will keep to the right." I'd have to go look, but I think it was on the line in Wisconsin near Altoona. Jeff Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 20, 2005 7:11 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed The ICC wanted competition in the basin so they picked the CNW since they had the "cowboy" line in Wyoming. At 1st the CNW was to extend the "cowboy line. Then the UPRR said they would build a connector to accept the coal trains & CNW being strapped for $$$$ accepted less revenue to have the coal routed CNW then UPRR then CNW again in eastern Nebraska. I know this cause I was doing biz with CNW at the time I was told to buy CNW stock since once the announcement was made CNW would go higher. Today I am a very happy fellow for that decision. [:o)][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm not doubting what you say. I'm just wondering why this isn't in any books about CNW?. Wouldn't CNW want the world to know that Uncle Sam begged them to go into PRB? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, October 20, 2005 7:44 AM With respect to lefthand operation on the CNW I believe the story goes like this. Early on when they were single track the railroad built the depots to one side of the tracks. On the Milwaukee, and Wisconsin Divisions it was on the "compass" east side. On the Galena it was "compass" north side. When commuter service had to be increased to the point that double track was required, the only place to put that second track was of course on the side where the depot buildings weren't. The railroad decided to run the trains with the inbound trains on the "Left hand" side so commuters awaiting the arrival of their train would have the benifit of a depot building, thus the left handed operation throughout the system. However, up in Wisconsin where trains operated over subsidiary Chicago, Minneapolis, St Paul and Omaha, trains were operated "Right-handed." It used to be an old story that the railroad was owned by the English causing the unusual operation. Mitch Reply Edit spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Thursday, October 20, 2005 8:29 AM Again I think your question can only be answered by a 70s VP from the CNW or a former 70s ICC member. Doubt that either exists on this forum. You can also research the BNRR records as they were very opposed to the ICC allowing the CNW into the PRB. Did you do a google search on CNW Powder River Coal? I thank my lucky stars that I listened to certain people & the ruling that came down was very favorable to the CNW[:o)][:p] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Thursday, October 20, 2005 8:34 AM I found this by doing a Yahoo search of Chicago Northwestern Powder River Coal http://www.delta.edu/rmmee/cnwrr.html [:o)][:p] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply jeffhergert Member sinceMarch 2003 From: Central Iowa 6,899 posts Posted by jeffhergert on Thursday, October 20, 2005 10:05 AM The Government never "asked" the C&NW to build into the Powder River Basin. The BN was first approached by mining companies to build lines to the mines. The C&NW was approached by some utilities for coal rates from PRB to their plants. The C&NW realized the potential of the coal business and planned their own separate line into the PRB. They approached the BN about building a joint line. The BN at first refused, they didn't want the C&NW in there at all. The ICC wasn't going to approve two parallel lines and urged them to come to a joint agreement for use of a single line. This is what eventually happened. The CNWHS Summer 2004 issue of North Western Lines was devoted to the coal lines in Wyoming. Jeff Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 20, 2005 12:13 PM Thank You Jeff and spbed. That sheds some light on it for me. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Thursday, October 20, 2005 12:49 PM You welcome[:D][:o)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Thursday, October 20, 2005 3:56 PM Dave: I thought Proviso Yard was named after being in Proviso township. Could be wrong about it tho. Local schools there are Proviso East and Proviso West...they are always basketball powerhouses. ed Reply MichaelSol Member sinceOctober 2004 3,190 posts Posted by MichaelSol on Thursday, October 20, 2005 4:06 PM From: Franzosenbush Heritage Society: "Free soil, free speech, free labor, and free men!" This historic slogan resounded throughout the nation in the 1850's. The territories acquired after the war with Mexico had raised a big issue: Slavery had been forbidden under Mexican law. What was its status under American law? Some congressman favored "Squatter Sovereignty" letting the people in each territory settle the question or themselves, but at the time, Congress was split into factions and could not agree. Pennsylvania Representative David Wilmot said, "I move money be granted only if the territory bought with it be free soil, and that slavery be forever excluded from the land." Although he was defeated, the condition he introduced -- his "Proviso" -- was heard as far away as Cook County, Illinois. About 200 inhabitants of Cook County could easily identify with the Free-Soilers because both groups were a combination of small farmers, village merchants, household and mill workers and debtors. The Free-Soilers would be absorbed by the new Republican Party in 1856. Cook County farmers cheered when an act passed in the General Assembly which allowed counties to adopt township rule in 1849. Without hesitation township organization took place and an election for officers was held on April 2, 1850. Phineas Stanton became the first moderator, and A. S. Funston, clerk for the day. Local residents felt the need for their own ordinances for a long time. Cook County had been part of Peoria County until 1831. That same year Chicago became the County Seat of Cook, but it remained difficult to reach due to poor roads. Vandalia, the state capital, was many days away. Many felt local government could best solve its local problems -- one of the biggest problems being poor roads. It was still years from the day when Marion F. Covell (a son Thomas Covell) would provide the materials for passable roads to the entire region. Fifty-two men voted on April 2, 1850, and the newly formed Township acquired a Supervisor, a Clerk, an Assessor, three Commissioners of Highways, two Constables and two Justices of the Peace. The township was named "Taylor" after General Zachary Taylor, a war hero, the current President of the United States. However, he died within a few months on July 9, 1850. Representative Wilmot's "Proviso", no doubt kept alive by the "Underground Railway" established by northern farmers who helped slaves escape from their southern masters, suggested a new name for the township. The following April, the township's name was changed from Taylor to the TOWNSHIP OF PROVISO." Interesting history. Best regards, Michael Sol Reply CShaveRR Member sinceJune 2001 From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois 13,681 posts Posted by CShaveRR on Saturday, January 14, 2006 4:33 PM Yes, Proviso Township was there well before the yard. There are (or were) plenty of places in the township that carried the name as part of their titles. Portions of Proviso Yard (Yard 9, specifically) are in Leyden Township. And the western end of the yard is actually in York Township, DuPage County. Carl Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!) CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM) Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, January 14, 2006 11:41 PM Isn't part of in Elmhurst? If CNW had the $ to rebuild the Cowboy line would of UP Brought them up? Reply Edit fuzzybroken Member sinceOctober 2002 From: Milwaukee, WI, US 1,384 posts Posted by fuzzybroken on Sunday, January 15, 2006 1:23 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Did CNW have any tunnels online? Only one that I know of. It was on the Madison to LaCrosse line in Wisconsin. The tunnel was near Sparta & Elroy (somewhere in that area). The line is no longer a through route and service ends at Reedsburg. The line is now operated by Wisconsin Southern. CC There are three tunnels on the line between Elroy and Sparta. I say "are" because the "line" is still in use, as the Sparta-Elroy Bike Trail. I biked almost the entire thing about half a life ago, and there were three tunnels that I had to stop and walk through (trail rules). It was a lot of fun, and I'll have to bike it again some time! QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 The C&NW gained entry into Kansas City by aquiring the CGW. They also got rid of a competitor and gained acess to more customers. They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. Additionally, most of the Twin Cities-Kansas City CGW main was abandoned when C&NW won the bidding for the ex-Rock Spine Line. QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 In Illinois very little of the CGW was kept. What was kept and used by the CNW/UP is slowly fading into history. Mostly as industrial spurs, from what I have noticed in my SPV atlas. [:(] QUOTE: Originally posted by cnwrwyman It is located in Proviso township so I suppose it was named after that.I have a question about Butler Yard in Milwaukee. While the Village of Butler celebrates itself as a railroad town, the only trackage actually inside its borders consists of some very lightly-used industrial trackage, while "Butler" Yard is within the City of Milwaukee, and appears to have been within the townships of Granville and Wauwatosa. Can anyone supply any further historical information about Butler? -Fuzzy Fuzzy World 3 Reply CShaveRR Member sinceJune 2001 From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois 13,681 posts Posted by CShaveRR on Sunday, January 15, 2006 4:39 PM Yes, the west tip of Proviso is in Elmhurst, which is in York Township, DuPage County (as opposed to Cook County, where the rest of the yard is). Carl Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!) CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM) Reply 12345 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:57 PM Proviso Yard's name had little to do with Larry Provo and predated his top job. It was simply a contracton of the words "provisions" or "providing", that this was to be the yard that would provide America with a large amount of goods by handling a whale of a percentage of the nation's freight. Heineman streamlined that commuter operations and drastically reduced its operating costs by dieselization, largely made possible by transferring diesels from long distance and country plug passsenger services that he fought (successfully) to discontinue, and by double deck coaches and push pull cab cars which cut some 60% of terminal costs. At the same time this presented a slick new image for the Chicago financial types that commuted on the Northwestern trains. The demise of the C&AE and CNS&M interurubans added more business of course and compensated for the loss of bussiness from the express highway system. He tried to maintain that he actually had a positive cash flow from the commuter business, the only railroad in the USA that could make that statement, but of course this discounted the depreciation of stations and part of the right-of-way. Reply zardoz Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Kenosha, WI 6,567 posts Posted by zardoz on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 1:01 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What was the CNW 's biggest legacy that it left to UP, and to American railroading in general? The mystery of why they operated left-handed. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 1:11 PM Well supposely that mystery was solved some time ago something do with ice at the passenger stations. You do know that the Cajon pass trains operate exactly the same way as the CNW trains used to?. [:o)][:p] Originally posted by zardoz Originally posted by Murphy Siding Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply wctransfer Member sinceFebruary 2005 From: New Brighton, Minnesota 1,493 posts Posted by wctransfer on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 3:21 PM Well, i have always liked the CNW, and just wondering if people want to talk abotut the CNW in St. Paul? Also, just food for thought, what was your favorite paintscheme the CNW had. I liked the regular ones, like on the SD40-2's and GP40's. Alec Check out my pics! [url="http://wctransfer.rrpicturearchives.net/"] http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=8714 Reply jeffhergert Member sinceMarch 2003 From: Central Iowa 6,899 posts Posted by jeffhergert on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 4:23 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What was the CNW 's biggest legacy that it left to UP, and to American railroading in general? The mystery of why they operated left-handed. I acquired some old CNW employee system time tables recently. Reading thru some of them I came across a few short stretches of double track where it stated, "Trains will keep to the right." I'd have to go look, but I think it was on the line in Wisconsin near Altoona. Jeff Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 20, 2005 7:11 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed The ICC wanted competition in the basin so they picked the CNW since they had the "cowboy" line in Wyoming. At 1st the CNW was to extend the "cowboy line. Then the UPRR said they would build a connector to accept the coal trains & CNW being strapped for $$$$ accepted less revenue to have the coal routed CNW then UPRR then CNW again in eastern Nebraska. I know this cause I was doing biz with CNW at the time I was told to buy CNW stock since once the announcement was made CNW would go higher. Today I am a very happy fellow for that decision. [:o)][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm not doubting what you say. I'm just wondering why this isn't in any books about CNW?. Wouldn't CNW want the world to know that Uncle Sam begged them to go into PRB? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, October 20, 2005 7:44 AM With respect to lefthand operation on the CNW I believe the story goes like this. Early on when they were single track the railroad built the depots to one side of the tracks. On the Milwaukee, and Wisconsin Divisions it was on the "compass" east side. On the Galena it was "compass" north side. When commuter service had to be increased to the point that double track was required, the only place to put that second track was of course on the side where the depot buildings weren't. The railroad decided to run the trains with the inbound trains on the "Left hand" side so commuters awaiting the arrival of their train would have the benifit of a depot building, thus the left handed operation throughout the system. However, up in Wisconsin where trains operated over subsidiary Chicago, Minneapolis, St Paul and Omaha, trains were operated "Right-handed." It used to be an old story that the railroad was owned by the English causing the unusual operation. Mitch Reply Edit spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Thursday, October 20, 2005 8:29 AM Again I think your question can only be answered by a 70s VP from the CNW or a former 70s ICC member. Doubt that either exists on this forum. You can also research the BNRR records as they were very opposed to the ICC allowing the CNW into the PRB. Did you do a google search on CNW Powder River Coal? I thank my lucky stars that I listened to certain people & the ruling that came down was very favorable to the CNW[:o)][:p] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Thursday, October 20, 2005 8:34 AM I found this by doing a Yahoo search of Chicago Northwestern Powder River Coal http://www.delta.edu/rmmee/cnwrr.html [:o)][:p] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply jeffhergert Member sinceMarch 2003 From: Central Iowa 6,899 posts Posted by jeffhergert on Thursday, October 20, 2005 10:05 AM The Government never "asked" the C&NW to build into the Powder River Basin. The BN was first approached by mining companies to build lines to the mines. The C&NW was approached by some utilities for coal rates from PRB to their plants. The C&NW realized the potential of the coal business and planned their own separate line into the PRB. They approached the BN about building a joint line. The BN at first refused, they didn't want the C&NW in there at all. The ICC wasn't going to approve two parallel lines and urged them to come to a joint agreement for use of a single line. This is what eventually happened. The CNWHS Summer 2004 issue of North Western Lines was devoted to the coal lines in Wyoming. Jeff Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 20, 2005 12:13 PM Thank You Jeff and spbed. That sheds some light on it for me. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Thursday, October 20, 2005 12:49 PM You welcome[:D][:o)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Thursday, October 20, 2005 3:56 PM Dave: I thought Proviso Yard was named after being in Proviso township. Could be wrong about it tho. Local schools there are Proviso East and Proviso West...they are always basketball powerhouses. ed Reply MichaelSol Member sinceOctober 2004 3,190 posts Posted by MichaelSol on Thursday, October 20, 2005 4:06 PM From: Franzosenbush Heritage Society: "Free soil, free speech, free labor, and free men!" This historic slogan resounded throughout the nation in the 1850's. The territories acquired after the war with Mexico had raised a big issue: Slavery had been forbidden under Mexican law. What was its status under American law? Some congressman favored "Squatter Sovereignty" letting the people in each territory settle the question or themselves, but at the time, Congress was split into factions and could not agree. Pennsylvania Representative David Wilmot said, "I move money be granted only if the territory bought with it be free soil, and that slavery be forever excluded from the land." Although he was defeated, the condition he introduced -- his "Proviso" -- was heard as far away as Cook County, Illinois. About 200 inhabitants of Cook County could easily identify with the Free-Soilers because both groups were a combination of small farmers, village merchants, household and mill workers and debtors. The Free-Soilers would be absorbed by the new Republican Party in 1856. Cook County farmers cheered when an act passed in the General Assembly which allowed counties to adopt township rule in 1849. Without hesitation township organization took place and an election for officers was held on April 2, 1850. Phineas Stanton became the first moderator, and A. S. Funston, clerk for the day. Local residents felt the need for their own ordinances for a long time. Cook County had been part of Peoria County until 1831. That same year Chicago became the County Seat of Cook, but it remained difficult to reach due to poor roads. Vandalia, the state capital, was many days away. Many felt local government could best solve its local problems -- one of the biggest problems being poor roads. It was still years from the day when Marion F. Covell (a son Thomas Covell) would provide the materials for passable roads to the entire region. Fifty-two men voted on April 2, 1850, and the newly formed Township acquired a Supervisor, a Clerk, an Assessor, three Commissioners of Highways, two Constables and two Justices of the Peace. The township was named "Taylor" after General Zachary Taylor, a war hero, the current President of the United States. However, he died within a few months on July 9, 1850. Representative Wilmot's "Proviso", no doubt kept alive by the "Underground Railway" established by northern farmers who helped slaves escape from their southern masters, suggested a new name for the township. The following April, the township's name was changed from Taylor to the TOWNSHIP OF PROVISO." Interesting history. Best regards, Michael Sol Reply CShaveRR Member sinceJune 2001 From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois 13,681 posts Posted by CShaveRR on Saturday, January 14, 2006 4:33 PM Yes, Proviso Township was there well before the yard. There are (or were) plenty of places in the township that carried the name as part of their titles. Portions of Proviso Yard (Yard 9, specifically) are in Leyden Township. And the western end of the yard is actually in York Township, DuPage County. Carl Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!) CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM) Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, January 14, 2006 11:41 PM Isn't part of in Elmhurst? If CNW had the $ to rebuild the Cowboy line would of UP Brought them up? Reply Edit fuzzybroken Member sinceOctober 2002 From: Milwaukee, WI, US 1,384 posts Posted by fuzzybroken on Sunday, January 15, 2006 1:23 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Did CNW have any tunnels online? Only one that I know of. It was on the Madison to LaCrosse line in Wisconsin. The tunnel was near Sparta & Elroy (somewhere in that area). The line is no longer a through route and service ends at Reedsburg. The line is now operated by Wisconsin Southern. CC There are three tunnels on the line between Elroy and Sparta. I say "are" because the "line" is still in use, as the Sparta-Elroy Bike Trail. I biked almost the entire thing about half a life ago, and there were three tunnels that I had to stop and walk through (trail rules). It was a lot of fun, and I'll have to bike it again some time! QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 The C&NW gained entry into Kansas City by aquiring the CGW. They also got rid of a competitor and gained acess to more customers. They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. Additionally, most of the Twin Cities-Kansas City CGW main was abandoned when C&NW won the bidding for the ex-Rock Spine Line. QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 In Illinois very little of the CGW was kept. What was kept and used by the CNW/UP is slowly fading into history. Mostly as industrial spurs, from what I have noticed in my SPV atlas. [:(] QUOTE: Originally posted by cnwrwyman It is located in Proviso township so I suppose it was named after that.I have a question about Butler Yard in Milwaukee. While the Village of Butler celebrates itself as a railroad town, the only trackage actually inside its borders consists of some very lightly-used industrial trackage, while "Butler" Yard is within the City of Milwaukee, and appears to have been within the townships of Granville and Wauwatosa. Can anyone supply any further historical information about Butler? -Fuzzy Fuzzy World 3 Reply CShaveRR Member sinceJune 2001 From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois 13,681 posts Posted by CShaveRR on Sunday, January 15, 2006 4:39 PM Yes, the west tip of Proviso is in Elmhurst, which is in York Township, DuPage County (as opposed to Cook County, where the rest of the yard is). Carl Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!) CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM) Reply 12345 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What was the CNW 's biggest legacy that it left to UP, and to American railroading in general?
Originally posted by zardoz Originally posted by Murphy Siding Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply wctransfer Member sinceFebruary 2005 From: New Brighton, Minnesota 1,493 posts Posted by wctransfer on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 3:21 PM Well, i have always liked the CNW, and just wondering if people want to talk abotut the CNW in St. Paul? Also, just food for thought, what was your favorite paintscheme the CNW had. I liked the regular ones, like on the SD40-2's and GP40's. Alec Check out my pics! [url="http://wctransfer.rrpicturearchives.net/"] http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=8714 Reply jeffhergert Member sinceMarch 2003 From: Central Iowa 6,899 posts Posted by jeffhergert on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 4:23 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What was the CNW 's biggest legacy that it left to UP, and to American railroading in general? The mystery of why they operated left-handed. I acquired some old CNW employee system time tables recently. Reading thru some of them I came across a few short stretches of double track where it stated, "Trains will keep to the right." I'd have to go look, but I think it was on the line in Wisconsin near Altoona. Jeff Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 20, 2005 7:11 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed The ICC wanted competition in the basin so they picked the CNW since they had the "cowboy" line in Wyoming. At 1st the CNW was to extend the "cowboy line. Then the UPRR said they would build a connector to accept the coal trains & CNW being strapped for $$$$ accepted less revenue to have the coal routed CNW then UPRR then CNW again in eastern Nebraska. I know this cause I was doing biz with CNW at the time I was told to buy CNW stock since once the announcement was made CNW would go higher. Today I am a very happy fellow for that decision. [:o)][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm not doubting what you say. I'm just wondering why this isn't in any books about CNW?. Wouldn't CNW want the world to know that Uncle Sam begged them to go into PRB? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, October 20, 2005 7:44 AM With respect to lefthand operation on the CNW I believe the story goes like this. Early on when they were single track the railroad built the depots to one side of the tracks. On the Milwaukee, and Wisconsin Divisions it was on the "compass" east side. On the Galena it was "compass" north side. When commuter service had to be increased to the point that double track was required, the only place to put that second track was of course on the side where the depot buildings weren't. The railroad decided to run the trains with the inbound trains on the "Left hand" side so commuters awaiting the arrival of their train would have the benifit of a depot building, thus the left handed operation throughout the system. However, up in Wisconsin where trains operated over subsidiary Chicago, Minneapolis, St Paul and Omaha, trains were operated "Right-handed." It used to be an old story that the railroad was owned by the English causing the unusual operation. Mitch Reply Edit spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Thursday, October 20, 2005 8:29 AM Again I think your question can only be answered by a 70s VP from the CNW or a former 70s ICC member. Doubt that either exists on this forum. You can also research the BNRR records as they were very opposed to the ICC allowing the CNW into the PRB. Did you do a google search on CNW Powder River Coal? I thank my lucky stars that I listened to certain people & the ruling that came down was very favorable to the CNW[:o)][:p] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Thursday, October 20, 2005 8:34 AM I found this by doing a Yahoo search of Chicago Northwestern Powder River Coal http://www.delta.edu/rmmee/cnwrr.html [:o)][:p] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply jeffhergert Member sinceMarch 2003 From: Central Iowa 6,899 posts Posted by jeffhergert on Thursday, October 20, 2005 10:05 AM The Government never "asked" the C&NW to build into the Powder River Basin. The BN was first approached by mining companies to build lines to the mines. The C&NW was approached by some utilities for coal rates from PRB to their plants. The C&NW realized the potential of the coal business and planned their own separate line into the PRB. They approached the BN about building a joint line. The BN at first refused, they didn't want the C&NW in there at all. The ICC wasn't going to approve two parallel lines and urged them to come to a joint agreement for use of a single line. This is what eventually happened. The CNWHS Summer 2004 issue of North Western Lines was devoted to the coal lines in Wyoming. Jeff Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 20, 2005 12:13 PM Thank You Jeff and spbed. That sheds some light on it for me. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Thursday, October 20, 2005 12:49 PM You welcome[:D][:o)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Thursday, October 20, 2005 3:56 PM Dave: I thought Proviso Yard was named after being in Proviso township. Could be wrong about it tho. Local schools there are Proviso East and Proviso West...they are always basketball powerhouses. ed Reply MichaelSol Member sinceOctober 2004 3,190 posts Posted by MichaelSol on Thursday, October 20, 2005 4:06 PM From: Franzosenbush Heritage Society: "Free soil, free speech, free labor, and free men!" This historic slogan resounded throughout the nation in the 1850's. The territories acquired after the war with Mexico had raised a big issue: Slavery had been forbidden under Mexican law. What was its status under American law? Some congressman favored "Squatter Sovereignty" letting the people in each territory settle the question or themselves, but at the time, Congress was split into factions and could not agree. Pennsylvania Representative David Wilmot said, "I move money be granted only if the territory bought with it be free soil, and that slavery be forever excluded from the land." Although he was defeated, the condition he introduced -- his "Proviso" -- was heard as far away as Cook County, Illinois. About 200 inhabitants of Cook County could easily identify with the Free-Soilers because both groups were a combination of small farmers, village merchants, household and mill workers and debtors. The Free-Soilers would be absorbed by the new Republican Party in 1856. Cook County farmers cheered when an act passed in the General Assembly which allowed counties to adopt township rule in 1849. Without hesitation township organization took place and an election for officers was held on April 2, 1850. Phineas Stanton became the first moderator, and A. S. Funston, clerk for the day. Local residents felt the need for their own ordinances for a long time. Cook County had been part of Peoria County until 1831. That same year Chicago became the County Seat of Cook, but it remained difficult to reach due to poor roads. Vandalia, the state capital, was many days away. Many felt local government could best solve its local problems -- one of the biggest problems being poor roads. It was still years from the day when Marion F. Covell (a son Thomas Covell) would provide the materials for passable roads to the entire region. Fifty-two men voted on April 2, 1850, and the newly formed Township acquired a Supervisor, a Clerk, an Assessor, three Commissioners of Highways, two Constables and two Justices of the Peace. The township was named "Taylor" after General Zachary Taylor, a war hero, the current President of the United States. However, he died within a few months on July 9, 1850. Representative Wilmot's "Proviso", no doubt kept alive by the "Underground Railway" established by northern farmers who helped slaves escape from their southern masters, suggested a new name for the township. The following April, the township's name was changed from Taylor to the TOWNSHIP OF PROVISO." Interesting history. Best regards, Michael Sol Reply CShaveRR Member sinceJune 2001 From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois 13,681 posts Posted by CShaveRR on Saturday, January 14, 2006 4:33 PM Yes, Proviso Township was there well before the yard. There are (or were) plenty of places in the township that carried the name as part of their titles. Portions of Proviso Yard (Yard 9, specifically) are in Leyden Township. And the western end of the yard is actually in York Township, DuPage County. Carl Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!) CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM) Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, January 14, 2006 11:41 PM Isn't part of in Elmhurst? If CNW had the $ to rebuild the Cowboy line would of UP Brought them up? Reply Edit fuzzybroken Member sinceOctober 2002 From: Milwaukee, WI, US 1,384 posts Posted by fuzzybroken on Sunday, January 15, 2006 1:23 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Did CNW have any tunnels online? Only one that I know of. It was on the Madison to LaCrosse line in Wisconsin. The tunnel was near Sparta & Elroy (somewhere in that area). The line is no longer a through route and service ends at Reedsburg. The line is now operated by Wisconsin Southern. CC There are three tunnels on the line between Elroy and Sparta. I say "are" because the "line" is still in use, as the Sparta-Elroy Bike Trail. I biked almost the entire thing about half a life ago, and there were three tunnels that I had to stop and walk through (trail rules). It was a lot of fun, and I'll have to bike it again some time! QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 The C&NW gained entry into Kansas City by aquiring the CGW. They also got rid of a competitor and gained acess to more customers. They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. Additionally, most of the Twin Cities-Kansas City CGW main was abandoned when C&NW won the bidding for the ex-Rock Spine Line. QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 In Illinois very little of the CGW was kept. What was kept and used by the CNW/UP is slowly fading into history. Mostly as industrial spurs, from what I have noticed in my SPV atlas. [:(] QUOTE: Originally posted by cnwrwyman It is located in Proviso township so I suppose it was named after that.I have a question about Butler Yard in Milwaukee. While the Village of Butler celebrates itself as a railroad town, the only trackage actually inside its borders consists of some very lightly-used industrial trackage, while "Butler" Yard is within the City of Milwaukee, and appears to have been within the townships of Granville and Wauwatosa. Can anyone supply any further historical information about Butler? -Fuzzy Fuzzy World 3 Reply CShaveRR Member sinceJune 2001 From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois 13,681 posts Posted by CShaveRR on Sunday, January 15, 2006 4:39 PM Yes, the west tip of Proviso is in Elmhurst, which is in York Township, DuPage County (as opposed to Cook County, where the rest of the yard is). Carl Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!) CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM) Reply 12345 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. 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Originally posted by Murphy Siding Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply wctransfer Member sinceFebruary 2005 From: New Brighton, Minnesota 1,493 posts Posted by wctransfer on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 3:21 PM Well, i have always liked the CNW, and just wondering if people want to talk abotut the CNW in St. Paul? Also, just food for thought, what was your favorite paintscheme the CNW had. I liked the regular ones, like on the SD40-2's and GP40's. Alec Check out my pics! [url="http://wctransfer.rrpicturearchives.net/"] http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=8714 Reply jeffhergert Member sinceMarch 2003 From: Central Iowa 6,899 posts Posted by jeffhergert on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 4:23 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What was the CNW 's biggest legacy that it left to UP, and to American railroading in general? The mystery of why they operated left-handed. I acquired some old CNW employee system time tables recently. Reading thru some of them I came across a few short stretches of double track where it stated, "Trains will keep to the right." I'd have to go look, but I think it was on the line in Wisconsin near Altoona. Jeff Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 20, 2005 7:11 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed The ICC wanted competition in the basin so they picked the CNW since they had the "cowboy" line in Wyoming. At 1st the CNW was to extend the "cowboy line. Then the UPRR said they would build a connector to accept the coal trains & CNW being strapped for $$$$ accepted less revenue to have the coal routed CNW then UPRR then CNW again in eastern Nebraska. I know this cause I was doing biz with CNW at the time I was told to buy CNW stock since once the announcement was made CNW would go higher. Today I am a very happy fellow for that decision. [:o)][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm not doubting what you say. I'm just wondering why this isn't in any books about CNW?. Wouldn't CNW want the world to know that Uncle Sam begged them to go into PRB? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, October 20, 2005 7:44 AM With respect to lefthand operation on the CNW I believe the story goes like this. Early on when they were single track the railroad built the depots to one side of the tracks. On the Milwaukee, and Wisconsin Divisions it was on the "compass" east side. On the Galena it was "compass" north side. When commuter service had to be increased to the point that double track was required, the only place to put that second track was of course on the side where the depot buildings weren't. The railroad decided to run the trains with the inbound trains on the "Left hand" side so commuters awaiting the arrival of their train would have the benifit of a depot building, thus the left handed operation throughout the system. However, up in Wisconsin where trains operated over subsidiary Chicago, Minneapolis, St Paul and Omaha, trains were operated "Right-handed." It used to be an old story that the railroad was owned by the English causing the unusual operation. Mitch Reply Edit spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Thursday, October 20, 2005 8:29 AM Again I think your question can only be answered by a 70s VP from the CNW or a former 70s ICC member. Doubt that either exists on this forum. You can also research the BNRR records as they were very opposed to the ICC allowing the CNW into the PRB. Did you do a google search on CNW Powder River Coal? I thank my lucky stars that I listened to certain people & the ruling that came down was very favorable to the CNW[:o)][:p] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Thursday, October 20, 2005 8:34 AM I found this by doing a Yahoo search of Chicago Northwestern Powder River Coal http://www.delta.edu/rmmee/cnwrr.html [:o)][:p] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply jeffhergert Member sinceMarch 2003 From: Central Iowa 6,899 posts Posted by jeffhergert on Thursday, October 20, 2005 10:05 AM The Government never "asked" the C&NW to build into the Powder River Basin. The BN was first approached by mining companies to build lines to the mines. The C&NW was approached by some utilities for coal rates from PRB to their plants. The C&NW realized the potential of the coal business and planned their own separate line into the PRB. They approached the BN about building a joint line. The BN at first refused, they didn't want the C&NW in there at all. The ICC wasn't going to approve two parallel lines and urged them to come to a joint agreement for use of a single line. This is what eventually happened. The CNWHS Summer 2004 issue of North Western Lines was devoted to the coal lines in Wyoming. Jeff Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 20, 2005 12:13 PM Thank You Jeff and spbed. That sheds some light on it for me. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Thursday, October 20, 2005 12:49 PM You welcome[:D][:o)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Thursday, October 20, 2005 3:56 PM Dave: I thought Proviso Yard was named after being in Proviso township. Could be wrong about it tho. Local schools there are Proviso East and Proviso West...they are always basketball powerhouses. ed Reply MichaelSol Member sinceOctober 2004 3,190 posts Posted by MichaelSol on Thursday, October 20, 2005 4:06 PM From: Franzosenbush Heritage Society: "Free soil, free speech, free labor, and free men!" This historic slogan resounded throughout the nation in the 1850's. The territories acquired after the war with Mexico had raised a big issue: Slavery had been forbidden under Mexican law. What was its status under American law? Some congressman favored "Squatter Sovereignty" letting the people in each territory settle the question or themselves, but at the time, Congress was split into factions and could not agree. Pennsylvania Representative David Wilmot said, "I move money be granted only if the territory bought with it be free soil, and that slavery be forever excluded from the land." Although he was defeated, the condition he introduced -- his "Proviso" -- was heard as far away as Cook County, Illinois. About 200 inhabitants of Cook County could easily identify with the Free-Soilers because both groups were a combination of small farmers, village merchants, household and mill workers and debtors. The Free-Soilers would be absorbed by the new Republican Party in 1856. Cook County farmers cheered when an act passed in the General Assembly which allowed counties to adopt township rule in 1849. Without hesitation township organization took place and an election for officers was held on April 2, 1850. Phineas Stanton became the first moderator, and A. S. Funston, clerk for the day. Local residents felt the need for their own ordinances for a long time. Cook County had been part of Peoria County until 1831. That same year Chicago became the County Seat of Cook, but it remained difficult to reach due to poor roads. Vandalia, the state capital, was many days away. Many felt local government could best solve its local problems -- one of the biggest problems being poor roads. It was still years from the day when Marion F. Covell (a son Thomas Covell) would provide the materials for passable roads to the entire region. Fifty-two men voted on April 2, 1850, and the newly formed Township acquired a Supervisor, a Clerk, an Assessor, three Commissioners of Highways, two Constables and two Justices of the Peace. The township was named "Taylor" after General Zachary Taylor, a war hero, the current President of the United States. However, he died within a few months on July 9, 1850. Representative Wilmot's "Proviso", no doubt kept alive by the "Underground Railway" established by northern farmers who helped slaves escape from their southern masters, suggested a new name for the township. The following April, the township's name was changed from Taylor to the TOWNSHIP OF PROVISO." Interesting history. Best regards, Michael Sol Reply CShaveRR Member sinceJune 2001 From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois 13,681 posts Posted by CShaveRR on Saturday, January 14, 2006 4:33 PM Yes, Proviso Township was there well before the yard. There are (or were) plenty of places in the township that carried the name as part of their titles. Portions of Proviso Yard (Yard 9, specifically) are in Leyden Township. And the western end of the yard is actually in York Township, DuPage County. Carl Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!) CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM) Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, January 14, 2006 11:41 PM Isn't part of in Elmhurst? If CNW had the $ to rebuild the Cowboy line would of UP Brought them up? Reply Edit fuzzybroken Member sinceOctober 2002 From: Milwaukee, WI, US 1,384 posts Posted by fuzzybroken on Sunday, January 15, 2006 1:23 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Did CNW have any tunnels online? Only one that I know of. It was on the Madison to LaCrosse line in Wisconsin. The tunnel was near Sparta & Elroy (somewhere in that area). The line is no longer a through route and service ends at Reedsburg. The line is now operated by Wisconsin Southern. CC There are three tunnels on the line between Elroy and Sparta. I say "are" because the "line" is still in use, as the Sparta-Elroy Bike Trail. I biked almost the entire thing about half a life ago, and there were three tunnels that I had to stop and walk through (trail rules). It was a lot of fun, and I'll have to bike it again some time! QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 The C&NW gained entry into Kansas City by aquiring the CGW. They also got rid of a competitor and gained acess to more customers. They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. Additionally, most of the Twin Cities-Kansas City CGW main was abandoned when C&NW won the bidding for the ex-Rock Spine Line. QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 In Illinois very little of the CGW was kept. What was kept and used by the CNW/UP is slowly fading into history. Mostly as industrial spurs, from what I have noticed in my SPV atlas. [:(] QUOTE: Originally posted by cnwrwyman It is located in Proviso township so I suppose it was named after that.I have a question about Butler Yard in Milwaukee. While the Village of Butler celebrates itself as a railroad town, the only trackage actually inside its borders consists of some very lightly-used industrial trackage, while "Butler" Yard is within the City of Milwaukee, and appears to have been within the townships of Granville and Wauwatosa. Can anyone supply any further historical information about Butler? -Fuzzy Fuzzy World 3 Reply CShaveRR Member sinceJune 2001 From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois 13,681 posts Posted by CShaveRR on Sunday, January 15, 2006 4:39 PM Yes, the west tip of Proviso is in Elmhurst, which is in York Township, DuPage County (as opposed to Cook County, where the rest of the yard is). Carl Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!) CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM) Reply 12345 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What was the CNW 's biggest legacy that it left to UP, and to American railroading in general? The mystery of why they operated left-handed.
QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed The ICC wanted competition in the basin so they picked the CNW since they had the "cowboy" line in Wyoming. At 1st the CNW was to extend the "cowboy line. Then the UPRR said they would build a connector to accept the coal trains & CNW being strapped for $$$$ accepted less revenue to have the coal routed CNW then UPRR then CNW again in eastern Nebraska. I know this cause I was doing biz with CNW at the time I was told to buy CNW stock since once the announcement was made CNW would go higher. Today I am a very happy fellow for that decision. [:o)][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm not doubting what you say. I'm just wondering why this isn't in any books about CNW?. Wouldn't CNW want the world to know that Uncle Sam begged them to go into PRB? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, October 20, 2005 7:44 AM With respect to lefthand operation on the CNW I believe the story goes like this. Early on when they were single track the railroad built the depots to one side of the tracks. On the Milwaukee, and Wisconsin Divisions it was on the "compass" east side. On the Galena it was "compass" north side. When commuter service had to be increased to the point that double track was required, the only place to put that second track was of course on the side where the depot buildings weren't. The railroad decided to run the trains with the inbound trains on the "Left hand" side so commuters awaiting the arrival of their train would have the benifit of a depot building, thus the left handed operation throughout the system. However, up in Wisconsin where trains operated over subsidiary Chicago, Minneapolis, St Paul and Omaha, trains were operated "Right-handed." It used to be an old story that the railroad was owned by the English causing the unusual operation. Mitch Reply Edit spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Thursday, October 20, 2005 8:29 AM Again I think your question can only be answered by a 70s VP from the CNW or a former 70s ICC member. Doubt that either exists on this forum. You can also research the BNRR records as they were very opposed to the ICC allowing the CNW into the PRB. Did you do a google search on CNW Powder River Coal? I thank my lucky stars that I listened to certain people & the ruling that came down was very favorable to the CNW[:o)][:p] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Thursday, October 20, 2005 8:34 AM I found this by doing a Yahoo search of Chicago Northwestern Powder River Coal http://www.delta.edu/rmmee/cnwrr.html [:o)][:p] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply jeffhergert Member sinceMarch 2003 From: Central Iowa 6,899 posts Posted by jeffhergert on Thursday, October 20, 2005 10:05 AM The Government never "asked" the C&NW to build into the Powder River Basin. The BN was first approached by mining companies to build lines to the mines. The C&NW was approached by some utilities for coal rates from PRB to their plants. The C&NW realized the potential of the coal business and planned their own separate line into the PRB. They approached the BN about building a joint line. The BN at first refused, they didn't want the C&NW in there at all. The ICC wasn't going to approve two parallel lines and urged them to come to a joint agreement for use of a single line. This is what eventually happened. The CNWHS Summer 2004 issue of North Western Lines was devoted to the coal lines in Wyoming. Jeff Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 20, 2005 12:13 PM Thank You Jeff and spbed. That sheds some light on it for me. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Thursday, October 20, 2005 12:49 PM You welcome[:D][:o)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Thursday, October 20, 2005 3:56 PM Dave: I thought Proviso Yard was named after being in Proviso township. Could be wrong about it tho. Local schools there are Proviso East and Proviso West...they are always basketball powerhouses. ed Reply MichaelSol Member sinceOctober 2004 3,190 posts Posted by MichaelSol on Thursday, October 20, 2005 4:06 PM From: Franzosenbush Heritage Society: "Free soil, free speech, free labor, and free men!" This historic slogan resounded throughout the nation in the 1850's. The territories acquired after the war with Mexico had raised a big issue: Slavery had been forbidden under Mexican law. What was its status under American law? Some congressman favored "Squatter Sovereignty" letting the people in each territory settle the question or themselves, but at the time, Congress was split into factions and could not agree. Pennsylvania Representative David Wilmot said, "I move money be granted only if the territory bought with it be free soil, and that slavery be forever excluded from the land." Although he was defeated, the condition he introduced -- his "Proviso" -- was heard as far away as Cook County, Illinois. About 200 inhabitants of Cook County could easily identify with the Free-Soilers because both groups were a combination of small farmers, village merchants, household and mill workers and debtors. The Free-Soilers would be absorbed by the new Republican Party in 1856. Cook County farmers cheered when an act passed in the General Assembly which allowed counties to adopt township rule in 1849. Without hesitation township organization took place and an election for officers was held on April 2, 1850. Phineas Stanton became the first moderator, and A. S. Funston, clerk for the day. Local residents felt the need for their own ordinances for a long time. Cook County had been part of Peoria County until 1831. That same year Chicago became the County Seat of Cook, but it remained difficult to reach due to poor roads. Vandalia, the state capital, was many days away. Many felt local government could best solve its local problems -- one of the biggest problems being poor roads. It was still years from the day when Marion F. Covell (a son Thomas Covell) would provide the materials for passable roads to the entire region. Fifty-two men voted on April 2, 1850, and the newly formed Township acquired a Supervisor, a Clerk, an Assessor, three Commissioners of Highways, two Constables and two Justices of the Peace. The township was named "Taylor" after General Zachary Taylor, a war hero, the current President of the United States. However, he died within a few months on July 9, 1850. Representative Wilmot's "Proviso", no doubt kept alive by the "Underground Railway" established by northern farmers who helped slaves escape from their southern masters, suggested a new name for the township. The following April, the township's name was changed from Taylor to the TOWNSHIP OF PROVISO." Interesting history. Best regards, Michael Sol Reply CShaveRR Member sinceJune 2001 From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois 13,681 posts Posted by CShaveRR on Saturday, January 14, 2006 4:33 PM Yes, Proviso Township was there well before the yard. There are (or were) plenty of places in the township that carried the name as part of their titles. Portions of Proviso Yard (Yard 9, specifically) are in Leyden Township. And the western end of the yard is actually in York Township, DuPage County. Carl Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!) CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM) Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, January 14, 2006 11:41 PM Isn't part of in Elmhurst? If CNW had the $ to rebuild the Cowboy line would of UP Brought them up? Reply Edit fuzzybroken Member sinceOctober 2002 From: Milwaukee, WI, US 1,384 posts Posted by fuzzybroken on Sunday, January 15, 2006 1:23 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Did CNW have any tunnels online? Only one that I know of. It was on the Madison to LaCrosse line in Wisconsin. The tunnel was near Sparta & Elroy (somewhere in that area). The line is no longer a through route and service ends at Reedsburg. The line is now operated by Wisconsin Southern. CC There are three tunnels on the line between Elroy and Sparta. I say "are" because the "line" is still in use, as the Sparta-Elroy Bike Trail. I biked almost the entire thing about half a life ago, and there were three tunnels that I had to stop and walk through (trail rules). It was a lot of fun, and I'll have to bike it again some time! QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 The C&NW gained entry into Kansas City by aquiring the CGW. They also got rid of a competitor and gained acess to more customers. They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. Additionally, most of the Twin Cities-Kansas City CGW main was abandoned when C&NW won the bidding for the ex-Rock Spine Line. QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 In Illinois very little of the CGW was kept. What was kept and used by the CNW/UP is slowly fading into history. Mostly as industrial spurs, from what I have noticed in my SPV atlas. [:(] QUOTE: Originally posted by cnwrwyman It is located in Proviso township so I suppose it was named after that.I have a question about Butler Yard in Milwaukee. While the Village of Butler celebrates itself as a railroad town, the only trackage actually inside its borders consists of some very lightly-used industrial trackage, while "Butler" Yard is within the City of Milwaukee, and appears to have been within the townships of Granville and Wauwatosa. Can anyone supply any further historical information about Butler? -Fuzzy Fuzzy World 3 Reply CShaveRR Member sinceJune 2001 From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois 13,681 posts Posted by CShaveRR on Sunday, January 15, 2006 4:39 PM Yes, the west tip of Proviso is in Elmhurst, which is in York Township, DuPage County (as opposed to Cook County, where the rest of the yard is). Carl Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!) CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM) Reply 12345 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Thursday, October 20, 2005 8:34 AM I found this by doing a Yahoo search of Chicago Northwestern Powder River Coal http://www.delta.edu/rmmee/cnwrr.html [:o)][:p] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply jeffhergert Member sinceMarch 2003 From: Central Iowa 6,899 posts Posted by jeffhergert on Thursday, October 20, 2005 10:05 AM The Government never "asked" the C&NW to build into the Powder River Basin. The BN was first approached by mining companies to build lines to the mines. The C&NW was approached by some utilities for coal rates from PRB to their plants. The C&NW realized the potential of the coal business and planned their own separate line into the PRB. They approached the BN about building a joint line. The BN at first refused, they didn't want the C&NW in there at all. The ICC wasn't going to approve two parallel lines and urged them to come to a joint agreement for use of a single line. This is what eventually happened. The CNWHS Summer 2004 issue of North Western Lines was devoted to the coal lines in Wyoming. Jeff Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 20, 2005 12:13 PM Thank You Jeff and spbed. That sheds some light on it for me. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Thursday, October 20, 2005 12:49 PM You welcome[:D][:o)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Thursday, October 20, 2005 3:56 PM Dave: I thought Proviso Yard was named after being in Proviso township. Could be wrong about it tho. Local schools there are Proviso East and Proviso West...they are always basketball powerhouses. ed Reply MichaelSol Member sinceOctober 2004 3,190 posts Posted by MichaelSol on Thursday, October 20, 2005 4:06 PM From: Franzosenbush Heritage Society: "Free soil, free speech, free labor, and free men!" This historic slogan resounded throughout the nation in the 1850's. The territories acquired after the war with Mexico had raised a big issue: Slavery had been forbidden under Mexican law. What was its status under American law? Some congressman favored "Squatter Sovereignty" letting the people in each territory settle the question or themselves, but at the time, Congress was split into factions and could not agree. Pennsylvania Representative David Wilmot said, "I move money be granted only if the territory bought with it be free soil, and that slavery be forever excluded from the land." Although he was defeated, the condition he introduced -- his "Proviso" -- was heard as far away as Cook County, Illinois. About 200 inhabitants of Cook County could easily identify with the Free-Soilers because both groups were a combination of small farmers, village merchants, household and mill workers and debtors. The Free-Soilers would be absorbed by the new Republican Party in 1856. Cook County farmers cheered when an act passed in the General Assembly which allowed counties to adopt township rule in 1849. Without hesitation township organization took place and an election for officers was held on April 2, 1850. Phineas Stanton became the first moderator, and A. S. Funston, clerk for the day. Local residents felt the need for their own ordinances for a long time. Cook County had been part of Peoria County until 1831. That same year Chicago became the County Seat of Cook, but it remained difficult to reach due to poor roads. Vandalia, the state capital, was many days away. Many felt local government could best solve its local problems -- one of the biggest problems being poor roads. It was still years from the day when Marion F. Covell (a son Thomas Covell) would provide the materials for passable roads to the entire region. Fifty-two men voted on April 2, 1850, and the newly formed Township acquired a Supervisor, a Clerk, an Assessor, three Commissioners of Highways, two Constables and two Justices of the Peace. The township was named "Taylor" after General Zachary Taylor, a war hero, the current President of the United States. However, he died within a few months on July 9, 1850. Representative Wilmot's "Proviso", no doubt kept alive by the "Underground Railway" established by northern farmers who helped slaves escape from their southern masters, suggested a new name for the township. The following April, the township's name was changed from Taylor to the TOWNSHIP OF PROVISO." Interesting history. Best regards, Michael Sol Reply CShaveRR Member sinceJune 2001 From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois 13,681 posts Posted by CShaveRR on Saturday, January 14, 2006 4:33 PM Yes, Proviso Township was there well before the yard. There are (or were) plenty of places in the township that carried the name as part of their titles. Portions of Proviso Yard (Yard 9, specifically) are in Leyden Township. And the western end of the yard is actually in York Township, DuPage County. Carl Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!) CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM) Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, January 14, 2006 11:41 PM Isn't part of in Elmhurst? If CNW had the $ to rebuild the Cowboy line would of UP Brought them up? Reply Edit fuzzybroken Member sinceOctober 2002 From: Milwaukee, WI, US 1,384 posts Posted by fuzzybroken on Sunday, January 15, 2006 1:23 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Did CNW have any tunnels online? Only one that I know of. It was on the Madison to LaCrosse line in Wisconsin. The tunnel was near Sparta & Elroy (somewhere in that area). The line is no longer a through route and service ends at Reedsburg. The line is now operated by Wisconsin Southern. CC There are three tunnels on the line between Elroy and Sparta. I say "are" because the "line" is still in use, as the Sparta-Elroy Bike Trail. I biked almost the entire thing about half a life ago, and there were three tunnels that I had to stop and walk through (trail rules). It was a lot of fun, and I'll have to bike it again some time! QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 The C&NW gained entry into Kansas City by aquiring the CGW. They also got rid of a competitor and gained acess to more customers. They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. Additionally, most of the Twin Cities-Kansas City CGW main was abandoned when C&NW won the bidding for the ex-Rock Spine Line. QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 In Illinois very little of the CGW was kept. What was kept and used by the CNW/UP is slowly fading into history. Mostly as industrial spurs, from what I have noticed in my SPV atlas. [:(] QUOTE: Originally posted by cnwrwyman It is located in Proviso township so I suppose it was named after that.I have a question about Butler Yard in Milwaukee. While the Village of Butler celebrates itself as a railroad town, the only trackage actually inside its borders consists of some very lightly-used industrial trackage, while "Butler" Yard is within the City of Milwaukee, and appears to have been within the townships of Granville and Wauwatosa. Can anyone supply any further historical information about Butler? -Fuzzy Fuzzy World 3 Reply CShaveRR Member sinceJune 2001 From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois 13,681 posts Posted by CShaveRR on Sunday, January 15, 2006 4:39 PM Yes, the west tip of Proviso is in Elmhurst, which is in York Township, DuPage County (as opposed to Cook County, where the rest of the yard is). Carl Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!) CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM) Reply 12345 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Thursday, October 20, 2005 8:34 AM I found this by doing a Yahoo search of Chicago Northwestern Powder River Coal http://www.delta.edu/rmmee/cnwrr.html [:o)][:p] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply jeffhergert Member sinceMarch 2003 From: Central Iowa 6,899 posts Posted by jeffhergert on Thursday, October 20, 2005 10:05 AM The Government never "asked" the C&NW to build into the Powder River Basin. The BN was first approached by mining companies to build lines to the mines. The C&NW was approached by some utilities for coal rates from PRB to their plants. The C&NW realized the potential of the coal business and planned their own separate line into the PRB. They approached the BN about building a joint line. The BN at first refused, they didn't want the C&NW in there at all. The ICC wasn't going to approve two parallel lines and urged them to come to a joint agreement for use of a single line. This is what eventually happened. The CNWHS Summer 2004 issue of North Western Lines was devoted to the coal lines in Wyoming. Jeff Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 20, 2005 12:13 PM Thank You Jeff and spbed. That sheds some light on it for me. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Thursday, October 20, 2005 12:49 PM You welcome[:D][:o)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Thursday, October 20, 2005 3:56 PM Dave: I thought Proviso Yard was named after being in Proviso township. Could be wrong about it tho. Local schools there are Proviso East and Proviso West...they are always basketball powerhouses. ed Reply MichaelSol Member sinceOctober 2004 3,190 posts Posted by MichaelSol on Thursday, October 20, 2005 4:06 PM From: Franzosenbush Heritage Society: "Free soil, free speech, free labor, and free men!" This historic slogan resounded throughout the nation in the 1850's. The territories acquired after the war with Mexico had raised a big issue: Slavery had been forbidden under Mexican law. What was its status under American law? Some congressman favored "Squatter Sovereignty" letting the people in each territory settle the question or themselves, but at the time, Congress was split into factions and could not agree. Pennsylvania Representative David Wilmot said, "I move money be granted only if the territory bought with it be free soil, and that slavery be forever excluded from the land." Although he was defeated, the condition he introduced -- his "Proviso" -- was heard as far away as Cook County, Illinois. About 200 inhabitants of Cook County could easily identify with the Free-Soilers because both groups were a combination of small farmers, village merchants, household and mill workers and debtors. The Free-Soilers would be absorbed by the new Republican Party in 1856. Cook County farmers cheered when an act passed in the General Assembly which allowed counties to adopt township rule in 1849. Without hesitation township organization took place and an election for officers was held on April 2, 1850. Phineas Stanton became the first moderator, and A. S. Funston, clerk for the day. Local residents felt the need for their own ordinances for a long time. Cook County had been part of Peoria County until 1831. That same year Chicago became the County Seat of Cook, but it remained difficult to reach due to poor roads. Vandalia, the state capital, was many days away. Many felt local government could best solve its local problems -- one of the biggest problems being poor roads. It was still years from the day when Marion F. Covell (a son Thomas Covell) would provide the materials for passable roads to the entire region. Fifty-two men voted on April 2, 1850, and the newly formed Township acquired a Supervisor, a Clerk, an Assessor, three Commissioners of Highways, two Constables and two Justices of the Peace. The township was named "Taylor" after General Zachary Taylor, a war hero, the current President of the United States. However, he died within a few months on July 9, 1850. Representative Wilmot's "Proviso", no doubt kept alive by the "Underground Railway" established by northern farmers who helped slaves escape from their southern masters, suggested a new name for the township. The following April, the township's name was changed from Taylor to the TOWNSHIP OF PROVISO." Interesting history. Best regards, Michael Sol Reply CShaveRR Member sinceJune 2001 From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois 13,681 posts Posted by CShaveRR on Saturday, January 14, 2006 4:33 PM Yes, Proviso Township was there well before the yard. There are (or were) plenty of places in the township that carried the name as part of their titles. Portions of Proviso Yard (Yard 9, specifically) are in Leyden Township. And the western end of the yard is actually in York Township, DuPage County. Carl Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!) CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM) Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, January 14, 2006 11:41 PM Isn't part of in Elmhurst? If CNW had the $ to rebuild the Cowboy line would of UP Brought them up? Reply Edit fuzzybroken Member sinceOctober 2002 From: Milwaukee, WI, US 1,384 posts Posted by fuzzybroken on Sunday, January 15, 2006 1:23 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Did CNW have any tunnels online? Only one that I know of. It was on the Madison to LaCrosse line in Wisconsin. The tunnel was near Sparta & Elroy (somewhere in that area). The line is no longer a through route and service ends at Reedsburg. The line is now operated by Wisconsin Southern. CC There are three tunnels on the line between Elroy and Sparta. I say "are" because the "line" is still in use, as the Sparta-Elroy Bike Trail. I biked almost the entire thing about half a life ago, and there were three tunnels that I had to stop and walk through (trail rules). It was a lot of fun, and I'll have to bike it again some time! QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 The C&NW gained entry into Kansas City by aquiring the CGW. They also got rid of a competitor and gained acess to more customers. They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. Additionally, most of the Twin Cities-Kansas City CGW main was abandoned when C&NW won the bidding for the ex-Rock Spine Line. QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 In Illinois very little of the CGW was kept. What was kept and used by the CNW/UP is slowly fading into history. Mostly as industrial spurs, from what I have noticed in my SPV atlas. [:(] QUOTE: Originally posted by cnwrwyman It is located in Proviso township so I suppose it was named after that.I have a question about Butler Yard in Milwaukee. While the Village of Butler celebrates itself as a railroad town, the only trackage actually inside its borders consists of some very lightly-used industrial trackage, while "Butler" Yard is within the City of Milwaukee, and appears to have been within the townships of Granville and Wauwatosa. Can anyone supply any further historical information about Butler? -Fuzzy Fuzzy World 3 Reply CShaveRR Member sinceJune 2001 From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois 13,681 posts Posted by CShaveRR on Sunday, January 15, 2006 4:39 PM Yes, the west tip of Proviso is in Elmhurst, which is in York Township, DuPage County (as opposed to Cook County, where the rest of the yard is). Carl Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!) CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM) Reply 12345 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply jeffhergert Member sinceMarch 2003 From: Central Iowa 6,899 posts Posted by jeffhergert on Thursday, October 20, 2005 10:05 AM The Government never "asked" the C&NW to build into the Powder River Basin. The BN was first approached by mining companies to build lines to the mines. The C&NW was approached by some utilities for coal rates from PRB to their plants. The C&NW realized the potential of the coal business and planned their own separate line into the PRB. They approached the BN about building a joint line. The BN at first refused, they didn't want the C&NW in there at all. The ICC wasn't going to approve two parallel lines and urged them to come to a joint agreement for use of a single line. This is what eventually happened. The CNWHS Summer 2004 issue of North Western Lines was devoted to the coal lines in Wyoming. Jeff Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 20, 2005 12:13 PM Thank You Jeff and spbed. That sheds some light on it for me. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Thursday, October 20, 2005 12:49 PM You welcome[:D][:o)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Thursday, October 20, 2005 3:56 PM Dave: I thought Proviso Yard was named after being in Proviso township. Could be wrong about it tho. Local schools there are Proviso East and Proviso West...they are always basketball powerhouses. ed Reply MichaelSol Member sinceOctober 2004 3,190 posts Posted by MichaelSol on Thursday, October 20, 2005 4:06 PM From: Franzosenbush Heritage Society: "Free soil, free speech, free labor, and free men!" This historic slogan resounded throughout the nation in the 1850's. The territories acquired after the war with Mexico had raised a big issue: Slavery had been forbidden under Mexican law. What was its status under American law? Some congressman favored "Squatter Sovereignty" letting the people in each territory settle the question or themselves, but at the time, Congress was split into factions and could not agree. Pennsylvania Representative David Wilmot said, "I move money be granted only if the territory bought with it be free soil, and that slavery be forever excluded from the land." Although he was defeated, the condition he introduced -- his "Proviso" -- was heard as far away as Cook County, Illinois. About 200 inhabitants of Cook County could easily identify with the Free-Soilers because both groups were a combination of small farmers, village merchants, household and mill workers and debtors. The Free-Soilers would be absorbed by the new Republican Party in 1856. Cook County farmers cheered when an act passed in the General Assembly which allowed counties to adopt township rule in 1849. Without hesitation township organization took place and an election for officers was held on April 2, 1850. Phineas Stanton became the first moderator, and A. S. Funston, clerk for the day. Local residents felt the need for their own ordinances for a long time. Cook County had been part of Peoria County until 1831. That same year Chicago became the County Seat of Cook, but it remained difficult to reach due to poor roads. Vandalia, the state capital, was many days away. Many felt local government could best solve its local problems -- one of the biggest problems being poor roads. It was still years from the day when Marion F. Covell (a son Thomas Covell) would provide the materials for passable roads to the entire region. Fifty-two men voted on April 2, 1850, and the newly formed Township acquired a Supervisor, a Clerk, an Assessor, three Commissioners of Highways, two Constables and two Justices of the Peace. The township was named "Taylor" after General Zachary Taylor, a war hero, the current President of the United States. However, he died within a few months on July 9, 1850. Representative Wilmot's "Proviso", no doubt kept alive by the "Underground Railway" established by northern farmers who helped slaves escape from their southern masters, suggested a new name for the township. The following April, the township's name was changed from Taylor to the TOWNSHIP OF PROVISO." Interesting history. Best regards, Michael Sol Reply CShaveRR Member sinceJune 2001 From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois 13,681 posts Posted by CShaveRR on Saturday, January 14, 2006 4:33 PM Yes, Proviso Township was there well before the yard. There are (or were) plenty of places in the township that carried the name as part of their titles. Portions of Proviso Yard (Yard 9, specifically) are in Leyden Township. And the western end of the yard is actually in York Township, DuPage County. Carl Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!) CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM) Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, January 14, 2006 11:41 PM Isn't part of in Elmhurst? If CNW had the $ to rebuild the Cowboy line would of UP Brought them up? Reply Edit fuzzybroken Member sinceOctober 2002 From: Milwaukee, WI, US 1,384 posts Posted by fuzzybroken on Sunday, January 15, 2006 1:23 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Did CNW have any tunnels online? Only one that I know of. It was on the Madison to LaCrosse line in Wisconsin. The tunnel was near Sparta & Elroy (somewhere in that area). The line is no longer a through route and service ends at Reedsburg. The line is now operated by Wisconsin Southern. CC There are three tunnels on the line between Elroy and Sparta. I say "are" because the "line" is still in use, as the Sparta-Elroy Bike Trail. I biked almost the entire thing about half a life ago, and there were three tunnels that I had to stop and walk through (trail rules). It was a lot of fun, and I'll have to bike it again some time! QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 The C&NW gained entry into Kansas City by aquiring the CGW. They also got rid of a competitor and gained acess to more customers. They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. Additionally, most of the Twin Cities-Kansas City CGW main was abandoned when C&NW won the bidding for the ex-Rock Spine Line. QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 In Illinois very little of the CGW was kept. What was kept and used by the CNW/UP is slowly fading into history. Mostly as industrial spurs, from what I have noticed in my SPV atlas. [:(] QUOTE: Originally posted by cnwrwyman It is located in Proviso township so I suppose it was named after that.I have a question about Butler Yard in Milwaukee. While the Village of Butler celebrates itself as a railroad town, the only trackage actually inside its borders consists of some very lightly-used industrial trackage, while "Butler" Yard is within the City of Milwaukee, and appears to have been within the townships of Granville and Wauwatosa. Can anyone supply any further historical information about Butler? -Fuzzy Fuzzy World 3 Reply CShaveRR Member sinceJune 2001 From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois 13,681 posts Posted by CShaveRR on Sunday, January 15, 2006 4:39 PM Yes, the west tip of Proviso is in Elmhurst, which is in York Township, DuPage County (as opposed to Cook County, where the rest of the yard is). Carl Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!) CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM) Reply 12345 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply jeffhergert Member sinceMarch 2003 From: Central Iowa 6,899 posts Posted by jeffhergert on Thursday, October 20, 2005 10:05 AM The Government never "asked" the C&NW to build into the Powder River Basin. The BN was first approached by mining companies to build lines to the mines. The C&NW was approached by some utilities for coal rates from PRB to their plants. The C&NW realized the potential of the coal business and planned their own separate line into the PRB. They approached the BN about building a joint line. The BN at first refused, they didn't want the C&NW in there at all. The ICC wasn't going to approve two parallel lines and urged them to come to a joint agreement for use of a single line. This is what eventually happened. The CNWHS Summer 2004 issue of North Western Lines was devoted to the coal lines in Wyoming. Jeff Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 20, 2005 12:13 PM Thank You Jeff and spbed. That sheds some light on it for me. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Thursday, October 20, 2005 12:49 PM You welcome[:D][:o)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Thursday, October 20, 2005 3:56 PM Dave: I thought Proviso Yard was named after being in Proviso township. Could be wrong about it tho. Local schools there are Proviso East and Proviso West...they are always basketball powerhouses. ed Reply MichaelSol Member sinceOctober 2004 3,190 posts Posted by MichaelSol on Thursday, October 20, 2005 4:06 PM From: Franzosenbush Heritage Society: "Free soil, free speech, free labor, and free men!" This historic slogan resounded throughout the nation in the 1850's. The territories acquired after the war with Mexico had raised a big issue: Slavery had been forbidden under Mexican law. What was its status under American law? Some congressman favored "Squatter Sovereignty" letting the people in each territory settle the question or themselves, but at the time, Congress was split into factions and could not agree. Pennsylvania Representative David Wilmot said, "I move money be granted only if the territory bought with it be free soil, and that slavery be forever excluded from the land." Although he was defeated, the condition he introduced -- his "Proviso" -- was heard as far away as Cook County, Illinois. About 200 inhabitants of Cook County could easily identify with the Free-Soilers because both groups were a combination of small farmers, village merchants, household and mill workers and debtors. The Free-Soilers would be absorbed by the new Republican Party in 1856. Cook County farmers cheered when an act passed in the General Assembly which allowed counties to adopt township rule in 1849. Without hesitation township organization took place and an election for officers was held on April 2, 1850. Phineas Stanton became the first moderator, and A. S. Funston, clerk for the day. Local residents felt the need for their own ordinances for a long time. Cook County had been part of Peoria County until 1831. That same year Chicago became the County Seat of Cook, but it remained difficult to reach due to poor roads. Vandalia, the state capital, was many days away. Many felt local government could best solve its local problems -- one of the biggest problems being poor roads. It was still years from the day when Marion F. Covell (a son Thomas Covell) would provide the materials for passable roads to the entire region. Fifty-two men voted on April 2, 1850, and the newly formed Township acquired a Supervisor, a Clerk, an Assessor, three Commissioners of Highways, two Constables and two Justices of the Peace. The township was named "Taylor" after General Zachary Taylor, a war hero, the current President of the United States. However, he died within a few months on July 9, 1850. Representative Wilmot's "Proviso", no doubt kept alive by the "Underground Railway" established by northern farmers who helped slaves escape from their southern masters, suggested a new name for the township. The following April, the township's name was changed from Taylor to the TOWNSHIP OF PROVISO." Interesting history. Best regards, Michael Sol Reply CShaveRR Member sinceJune 2001 From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois 13,681 posts Posted by CShaveRR on Saturday, January 14, 2006 4:33 PM Yes, Proviso Township was there well before the yard. There are (or were) plenty of places in the township that carried the name as part of their titles. Portions of Proviso Yard (Yard 9, specifically) are in Leyden Township. And the western end of the yard is actually in York Township, DuPage County. Carl Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!) CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM) Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, January 14, 2006 11:41 PM Isn't part of in Elmhurst? If CNW had the $ to rebuild the Cowboy line would of UP Brought them up? Reply Edit fuzzybroken Member sinceOctober 2002 From: Milwaukee, WI, US 1,384 posts Posted by fuzzybroken on Sunday, January 15, 2006 1:23 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Did CNW have any tunnels online? Only one that I know of. It was on the Madison to LaCrosse line in Wisconsin. The tunnel was near Sparta & Elroy (somewhere in that area). The line is no longer a through route and service ends at Reedsburg. The line is now operated by Wisconsin Southern. CC There are three tunnels on the line between Elroy and Sparta. I say "are" because the "line" is still in use, as the Sparta-Elroy Bike Trail. I biked almost the entire thing about half a life ago, and there were three tunnels that I had to stop and walk through (trail rules). It was a lot of fun, and I'll have to bike it again some time! QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 The C&NW gained entry into Kansas City by aquiring the CGW. They also got rid of a competitor and gained acess to more customers. They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. Additionally, most of the Twin Cities-Kansas City CGW main was abandoned when C&NW won the bidding for the ex-Rock Spine Line. QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 In Illinois very little of the CGW was kept. What was kept and used by the CNW/UP is slowly fading into history. Mostly as industrial spurs, from what I have noticed in my SPV atlas. [:(] QUOTE: Originally posted by cnwrwyman It is located in Proviso township so I suppose it was named after that.I have a question about Butler Yard in Milwaukee. While the Village of Butler celebrates itself as a railroad town, the only trackage actually inside its borders consists of some very lightly-used industrial trackage, while "Butler" Yard is within the City of Milwaukee, and appears to have been within the townships of Granville and Wauwatosa. Can anyone supply any further historical information about Butler? -Fuzzy Fuzzy World 3 Reply CShaveRR Member sinceJune 2001 From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois 13,681 posts Posted by CShaveRR on Sunday, January 15, 2006 4:39 PM Yes, the west tip of Proviso is in Elmhurst, which is in York Township, DuPage County (as opposed to Cook County, where the rest of the yard is). Carl Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!) CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM) Reply 12345 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Originally posted by Murphy Siding Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Thursday, October 20, 2005 3:56 PM Dave: I thought Proviso Yard was named after being in Proviso township. Could be wrong about it tho. Local schools there are Proviso East and Proviso West...they are always basketball powerhouses. ed Reply MichaelSol Member sinceOctober 2004 3,190 posts Posted by MichaelSol on Thursday, October 20, 2005 4:06 PM From: Franzosenbush Heritage Society: "Free soil, free speech, free labor, and free men!" This historic slogan resounded throughout the nation in the 1850's. The territories acquired after the war with Mexico had raised a big issue: Slavery had been forbidden under Mexican law. What was its status under American law? Some congressman favored "Squatter Sovereignty" letting the people in each territory settle the question or themselves, but at the time, Congress was split into factions and could not agree. Pennsylvania Representative David Wilmot said, "I move money be granted only if the territory bought with it be free soil, and that slavery be forever excluded from the land." Although he was defeated, the condition he introduced -- his "Proviso" -- was heard as far away as Cook County, Illinois. About 200 inhabitants of Cook County could easily identify with the Free-Soilers because both groups were a combination of small farmers, village merchants, household and mill workers and debtors. The Free-Soilers would be absorbed by the new Republican Party in 1856. Cook County farmers cheered when an act passed in the General Assembly which allowed counties to adopt township rule in 1849. Without hesitation township organization took place and an election for officers was held on April 2, 1850. Phineas Stanton became the first moderator, and A. S. Funston, clerk for the day. Local residents felt the need for their own ordinances for a long time. Cook County had been part of Peoria County until 1831. That same year Chicago became the County Seat of Cook, but it remained difficult to reach due to poor roads. Vandalia, the state capital, was many days away. Many felt local government could best solve its local problems -- one of the biggest problems being poor roads. It was still years from the day when Marion F. Covell (a son Thomas Covell) would provide the materials for passable roads to the entire region. Fifty-two men voted on April 2, 1850, and the newly formed Township acquired a Supervisor, a Clerk, an Assessor, three Commissioners of Highways, two Constables and two Justices of the Peace. The township was named "Taylor" after General Zachary Taylor, a war hero, the current President of the United States. However, he died within a few months on July 9, 1850. Representative Wilmot's "Proviso", no doubt kept alive by the "Underground Railway" established by northern farmers who helped slaves escape from their southern masters, suggested a new name for the township. The following April, the township's name was changed from Taylor to the TOWNSHIP OF PROVISO." Interesting history. Best regards, Michael Sol Reply CShaveRR Member sinceJune 2001 From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois 13,681 posts Posted by CShaveRR on Saturday, January 14, 2006 4:33 PM Yes, Proviso Township was there well before the yard. There are (or were) plenty of places in the township that carried the name as part of their titles. Portions of Proviso Yard (Yard 9, specifically) are in Leyden Township. And the western end of the yard is actually in York Township, DuPage County. Carl Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!) CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM) Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, January 14, 2006 11:41 PM Isn't part of in Elmhurst? If CNW had the $ to rebuild the Cowboy line would of UP Brought them up? Reply Edit fuzzybroken Member sinceOctober 2002 From: Milwaukee, WI, US 1,384 posts Posted by fuzzybroken on Sunday, January 15, 2006 1:23 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Did CNW have any tunnels online? Only one that I know of. It was on the Madison to LaCrosse line in Wisconsin. The tunnel was near Sparta & Elroy (somewhere in that area). The line is no longer a through route and service ends at Reedsburg. The line is now operated by Wisconsin Southern. CC There are three tunnels on the line between Elroy and Sparta. I say "are" because the "line" is still in use, as the Sparta-Elroy Bike Trail. I biked almost the entire thing about half a life ago, and there were three tunnels that I had to stop and walk through (trail rules). It was a lot of fun, and I'll have to bike it again some time! QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 The C&NW gained entry into Kansas City by aquiring the CGW. They also got rid of a competitor and gained acess to more customers. They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. Additionally, most of the Twin Cities-Kansas City CGW main was abandoned when C&NW won the bidding for the ex-Rock Spine Line. QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 In Illinois very little of the CGW was kept. What was kept and used by the CNW/UP is slowly fading into history. Mostly as industrial spurs, from what I have noticed in my SPV atlas. [:(] QUOTE: Originally posted by cnwrwyman It is located in Proviso township so I suppose it was named after that.I have a question about Butler Yard in Milwaukee. While the Village of Butler celebrates itself as a railroad town, the only trackage actually inside its borders consists of some very lightly-used industrial trackage, while "Butler" Yard is within the City of Milwaukee, and appears to have been within the townships of Granville and Wauwatosa. Can anyone supply any further historical information about Butler? -Fuzzy Fuzzy World 3 Reply CShaveRR Member sinceJune 2001 From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois 13,681 posts Posted by CShaveRR on Sunday, January 15, 2006 4:39 PM Yes, the west tip of Proviso is in Elmhurst, which is in York Township, DuPage County (as opposed to Cook County, where the rest of the yard is). Carl Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!) CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM) Reply 12345 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Did CNW have any tunnels online? Only one that I know of. It was on the Madison to LaCrosse line in Wisconsin. The tunnel was near Sparta & Elroy (somewhere in that area). The line is no longer a through route and service ends at Reedsburg. The line is now operated by Wisconsin Southern. CC
QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 In Illinois very little of the CGW was kept. What was kept and used by the CNW/UP is slowly fading into history.
QUOTE: Originally posted by cnwrwyman It is located in Proviso township so I suppose it was named after that.
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