"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
Quentin
TG3 LOOK ! LISTEN ! LIVE ! Remember the 3.
QUOTE: Originally posted by CG9602 QUOTE: Originally posted by eolafan Part of the problem is that no new refineries have been built in the last 25 years stateside. Once upon a time, the petroleum companies were allowed to writwe off depreciation of their refineries. Once this allowance was removed by the Carter Administration, there was a serious financial discouragement to build new refineries, or even to upgrade and add capacity to the existing ones. The demand has increased, but there is a major league bottleneck in the supply chain. The refineries have a challenge producing the 40-odd blends of gas that are mandated by law here in the States. We can thank many tree huggers and green peace types for not allowing companies to start up new refineries. I some times wonder if they have a different agenda. Also remember that China and India, 2 nations with populations of over 1 billion each, have been industrializing. This places more demand upon the existing market of raw petroleum. The answer to that is one of 2 or both, stock holders demand they bring the manufacture and outsourced jobs were the belong, or we quite buying at Walmart, look for US made products only and send a message back to those stock holders that don't care about our economy. If Chian and India didn't have that new source of income, then they wouldn't be able to buy new cars or the gas that goes in them. I for one am a little tired of NAFTA and CAFTA. Seems we aren't seeing a fair balance in the treaties. [censored] [soapbox] [censored] Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, August 14, 2005 1:10 AM If it can be guaranteed that crude will stay above $50 a barrel, then at that price the coal to liquids technology becomes profitable. Problem is, a coal liquification plant is a long term investment, and if the oil bubble bursts, those who invested in such plants will lose their shirts. The same thing happened to the shale oil industry during the 70's oil price bubble, the price of oil dropped suddenly and the investors got burned. That's why these guys are hesitant to jump in to this technology without some kind of federal loan guarantee, such as that in the new (and far less than what it could have been) energy bill. Since so much of the current spike is speculator driven, there is no assurance that there won't be a bursting of the bubble. For what it's worth then, a $3.00 a gallon fuel price should be the plateau over the long haul, and that price is in line with the inflation adjustments. If it goes above that in the short term, then the economy is in trouble. Of course, there is so much that could have been done to check both the oil price rise and the inflationary affect it will have on other goods. We should have opened up ANWR 5 years ago, then we'd be getting that oil by now. We should have lifted all moratoriums on coastal drilling off California and Florida (after all, don't all those oil rig-hating Florida tourists depend on fuel to actually get there in the first place? What irony if fuel prices caused in part by such drilling moratoriums results in a loss of tourism to those states!) We definately should have provided incentives for new refineries long before now. And do we really need 40 different gasoline blends? If Bush can be faulted for anything, it's the fact that he did not rid the EPA of all those eco-idiots that brought us to this situation. What to do now for the sake of expediency besides what is in the new energy bill? Get rid of the GVW standards for truckers and replace it with a per axle maximum, the better to increase the load factor to juxtapose fuel price surcharges. Suspend all EPA mandated fuel blend requirements, and allow our refineries to produce more economical quatities of single fuel types. (It should also be noted that suspending these regulations would allow the importation of "non-compliant" gasoline and diesel to supplement domestic production.) Other than that, just realize that it was a problem years in the making due mostly to environmental feel good legislation, and it will take years to correct. Reply Edit cpbloom Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Still on the other side of the tracks. 397 posts Posted by cpbloom on Sunday, August 14, 2005 3:45 AM http://www.gasbuddy.com/ http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/ Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Sunday, August 14, 2005 6:45 AM Friday I filled up car #1 it was $2.45 a gallon. Same gas station for car #2 on Saturday it was $2.63 PG. G'rrr[V] Originally posted by Modelcar Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Sunday, August 14, 2005 6:50 AM I heard on CNN that is more costly to produce ethanol then gas. In the 70s I use to buy "gasohol" but it never caught on with the driving public & it was finally not produced any longer. The time line then was $0.30 PG to $1.00 PG in short order[xx(] Originally posted by uspscsx [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Sunday, August 14, 2005 6:59 AM ...Dave you cite many truisms.....but to completely disband EPA restrictions we'll be headed back to smog so thick cities once again won't be able to breath....Must be a happy median in there {in specs.}, somewhere. Totally agree we have way too many gasoline blends to fool with and put up with it's contribitution to shortages and prices.....Need to redo those specs too... But if you are suggesting a formula to increase tonnage for truckers...{by adding axles and changing specs}, that I totally disagree with....There's enough weight slamming around right next to us as it is when we travel on our interstates now. And if it requires government backing for the shale oil and other projects, to that I say.."bring it on".... Quentin Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, August 14, 2005 12:24 PM Modelcar - The real danger to the economy of high fuel prices isn't in the transfer of consumers' discretionary income from toys to fuel, because the economy can absorb such internal transfers. The real danger is if high fuel prices cause an inflationary reaction for our goods due to higher transportation costs. One way to placate that possibility is to allow a greater load factor for truckers that can offset higher fuel costs, keeping the delivered price of goods nominal. Even if it is just temporary until the speculation diminishes, it is still the best and easiest way to avert the inflationary affects. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, August 14, 2005 2:06 PM Add axles add weight but only so far. 80,000 pounds gross is not that much less than 120,000 pounds gross. And the 600 Horsepower CAT which I think is a very good engine for heavy duty vehicles equippted with a Rockwell Transmission and final drive with all the latest technology will yeild only 5-7 mpg. Those extra axles will cost more to maintain and the damage to the highways somewhat increased. Some drivers are not very good at controlling 40 ton. What makes you think hauling 60 will be better? Sure.. a few more dollars in revenue. I rather put that freight on two trucks with 400 detroits and auto transmissions and have them get about 8 mpg and make a buck. Until we use technology that will enable Class 8 vehicles to have 600 horsepower and burn fuel at 6 gallons/hour or less (Or about 15-25 miles per gallon) and using gensets for sleeping and improving the revenue income by raising the rates charged to make the haul.... we will always be struggling to make a dollar per 100 spent as we have these last 20 years. I started out in the late 80's my pay was equivilant to .20 a mile and two meals with all the trimmings per day was less than 10 dollars. Now my pay is close to .42 cents and two meals cost near 30 dollars a day. That truck is STILL getting 7 miles to the gallon and have gotten much more intensive in the shop and cost at the dealer. Reply Edit Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Sunday, August 14, 2005 4:08 PM Futuremodel....I'm not necessary talking just about transfering spending from "toys" to fuel....almost all products we purchase....those in the necessary category count too and all will be effected if this fuel condition is here for long term....and not every one In the economy can make that transfer so easily. Say "larger truck capacity" anyway one cares to and my feelings on that will be the same.....If we're going to continue to mix autos and trucks on our main highways...{and It sure seem we will}, I think it's wrong to allow their size and load cap. to increase from where it is now. Slamming down one grade to get a jump on the next hill climb is bad enough now...Let's not make that even worse than it is. Quentin Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, August 14, 2005 5:25 PM The real reason the price of gas is up is not, ahem, not: greedy oil companies, or George Bush. The real reason are spot oil is bid on; people are buying into future people are saying that they think they can sell the oil later for over $60 a barrel. These people are driving the oil price up, many of them are Chinese who is sucking down a lot more of the worlds oil. The oil companies aren't the ones speculating, although speculating is the cause, this is a bubble. Like what happened to gold in the late 70's. Some of the people buying these futures would panic if they had to get the oil and store it. What they do is they sell the contract and make money and drive the price up. Other reasons affecting the price of gas are the fact that a new refinery hasn't been built in 25 years. Every area of the country uses a different government mandated formulation of gasoline. So if one refinery has a problem one producing the same type of gas may be n the other side of the country. To those who say bring it on; you must not realize the effect fuel prices have on everything, no just fuel and shipping. But every thing will cost more, plastics are oil based, everything requires shipping. $5 for a gallon of gas would affect everything you buy. Why do you want that? James[C):-)] Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, August 14, 2005 7:13 PM Oh George Bush is the problem? I disagree. I will still pay 5 dollars for a gallon of gas if necessary. Looking at my income and outflow I can afford 6.00 a gallon before having to shut the vehicles down or move to a city with mass transit or move closer to my job. I have stated these options including purchasing Hybrid vehicles as another possible. I still say bring it on. There are no new refinerys being built in the USA, no new oil fields being opened and brought on line soon and I think very little change in our driving habits in face of high prices. I still maintain my position bring it on. I dont blame Bush for this. I blame years of inaction to build, equipt and maintian new technolgies and sources of gasoline supply. We had this problem back in the Oil Embargo and every time we are at war. Looking back to world war two I see gas ration cards that are so severe that today's average joe schmo would NEVER tolerate such restrictions on his personal auto use. Perhaps it is because passenger trains reached into every little town and it isnt difficult to get around on the trains. Reply Edit rrnut282 Member sinceJanuary 2001 From: MP CF161.6 NS's New Castle District in NE Indiana 2,146 posts Posted by rrnut282 on Sunday, August 14, 2005 7:19 PM The reason the price of gas continues to climb is we continue to buy it. Until the demand flattens, the price can and will go up. Why do investors buy futures? Because they think (and are betting it will) go up. When demand drops, the speulators will get scared and get out of the market. What can we do? Slow down. Combine trips. Buy less fuel. Spendmore time time track-side watching trains go by instead of sitting in traffic wasting gas[:)] Someone mentioned ethanol a few posts back. Most cars can handle 10% without modification. It shouldn't be too difficult to come up with the technology to run vehicles on a reversed ratio. This is the next boon/bust industry. There are 6 proposed plants in Indiana alone. This is great news for railfans. Ethanol plants are rail-intensive. It takes a lot of corn (hauled in by rail) to distill ethanol. The "waste" product can be used to feed cattle. It should be generated in volumes to justify rail transportation also. The biggest benefit of ethanol is that it will keep the current gasoline-based tax structure intact. It wasn't just the oil companies that suppressed new technology in automobiles. Mike (2-8-2) Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,567 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, August 14, 2005 8:19 PM rrnut282: ethanol is not a real answer here. Ethanol receives approximately a $1.00 per gallon tax break in S.D.. I'm sure that other states are similiar. $1.00 per gallon, mixed at 10% per gallon = 10 cents per gallon subsidy. In S.D. the is a lot of E-85 fuel that is being touted as an answer. Most newer vehicles are able to use it. It sells for about 15% less ( due to subsidy, no doubt ) but gets somewhat lower gas mileage. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply waltersrails Member sinceJuly 2005 From: CSXT/B&O Flora IL 1,937 posts Posted by waltersrails on Sunday, August 14, 2005 8:34 PM ITS Bull for us little guys who try to make a living and can't even do that because of these stupid gas prices. I say we just swrew the envirmentalists and drill for that oil. ( Can't even drive to work any more) I like NS but CSX has the B&O. Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Sunday, August 14, 2005 8:53 PM ...WWII ration stamps....A, B, and C and T {tractor}, were very restrictive...Not much allowed per week, but people went along with it...of course {the exceptions, black market, etc..}, but people knew we were in a fight for our life....and country and everyone went all out to do their part....Attitudes were different. Quentin Reply edbenton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Back home on the Chi to KC racetrack 2,011 posts Posted by edbenton on Sunday, August 14, 2005 10:48 PM Another answer would be raise the CAFE standards on light trucks which would cover SUV's and Mini-vans right now it stands at 13.5 mpg is all for light trucks. Raise it to 20-25 mpg and that would help also. A Ford Excursion gets 16 mpg on the highway and that is with the diesel engine in it 10 mpg with the V-10 in it. I have a Chevy Venture mini-van and it gets 25+ mpg ont he highway. I can carry just as many people and the Excursion and still have room for all the luggage. Hybrids will help also lower fuel demand but our attitude towards needing a SUV to haul 2 adults and 2 kids needs to change. I was raised in the era of Station Wagons and they had more room than the SUV. My in-laws have 2 SUV's a Ford Explorer and an Isuszu Rodeo I had more room in my old Honda Prelude in the back seat than I do in either on of those vechiles. I am 6-6 and still fit in the back seat of my prelude with the seats all the way back. I can't even fit in the back seat of either one of the SUV's listed and in the front seat I am kissing the dashboard. God help me in a accident in either one of those if the airbag deploys. Sorry about ranting on my soapbox but oit is time for a massive change in this country I have seen the damage our current energy policy causes 1800 dead to sdecure our oil supply in a country that 10 years ago we did not even buy oil from. [soapbox][2c][banghead] Always at war with those that think OTR trucking is EASY. Reply Train Guy 3 Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Anywhere there are trains 578 posts Posted by Train Guy 3 on Sunday, August 14, 2005 11:09 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by waltersrails ITS Bull for us little guys who try to make a living and can't even do that because of these stupid gas prices. I say we just swrew the envirmentalists and drill for that oil. ( Can't even drive to work any more) I agree 100% to drill for the oil and say screw the enviormentalists. What do we lose by drilling? TG3 LOOK ! LISTEN ! LIVE ! Remember the 3. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, August 15, 2005 1:36 AM World oil production is 86 million barrels a day. World oil consumption is 86 million barrels a day or a little bit more. Oil consumption has increased 9 million barrels a day from last year. Three oil refineries in the US are down, one of them being the big Texas City oil refinery in Texas which produced a half million barrels of gas a day. The price has almost doubled in the last year and there has been no slack in demand. What is wrong with this picture is the new car lots are full of large pickups and SUVs, you would have thunk my now they would be dinosaurs..... Even my seven year old grandson can do the math, we are headed for another gas shortage soon with all of the lines all over again as demand surpassed our refinery capacity. Don't expect any help from the government. They know the numbers. The government won't move until the gas lines and shortages occur. The first item of business would be to lower the speed limits back down to 55 MPH, doing so will conserve 15 percent of our gas consumption. And the second item of business would be to increase gas mileage by legislation..... No more big pickups and SUVs getting anything less than 20 MPG CITY.... Of course, this will only provide a repreive for a few short years, and then it will happen all over again..... I suggest everyone do a google search on Peak Oil. Its here.... No politics involved, the price of gas is increasing due to supply and demands, the free marketplace. Anyone who doesn't see this correctly isn't reading the tea leaves..... What's its gonna take to wake up America, being slammed by a 2 X 4? We used to have a 180 day supply in reserves, its down to 54 days..... Yes, in March and April we used less than refined, but this summer has seen a big increase in consumption despite the prices going up dramatically..... T. Boone Pickens is warning that the crisis will hit before Christmas. He's one of the world's richest men. As far as there is a lot of oil in the ground, that's true. But its becoming harder to pump the oil, and we have reached our capacity to refine it..... He suggest we don't use our natural gas to produce electricty, which should be left to coal and nuclear power. We are after all the Saudi Arabia of coal.... We also need to look at how we package products with plastic. The days of plastic containers for milk and sodas should be gone. Trees are a renewable resource...... But there is no will in this government to do any conserving until we're out of gas..... We also need to think like the Europeans, 20 MPG is not good gas mileage. They think at least 30 MPG, if not 40 MPG. In fact the Volkswagon Lupo diesel gets 60 MPG, whereas the best selling car in Europe last year was the Volkswagon Polo diesel, which gets 50 MPG..... Diesels engines get approximately as a rule of thumb 33 percent more mileage than gasoline engines..... The Europeans have diesels in their Passats, Boras (Jettas), Golfs, Polos, and Lupos..... every sized car one can imagine from Volkswagon. Why haven't American car manufacturers done the same? Yep, they are still attempting to sell their gas hogs sitting in their new car lots. Dinosaurs all..... The news media has warned us... The facts are common knowledge..... Our consumption has passed our capacity to refine oil..... The Saudis are pumping as much as possible to fulfill demand. Yet, they are balking at pumping more, as we don't have the ability to refine it..... Yes, repealing the oil depretion allowance has finally caught up with us. What a stupid move by the Carter administration..... Burn the hand that provides us the goods.... Reply Edit 1234567»Last » Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. 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QUOTE: Originally posted by eolafan Part of the problem is that no new refineries have been built in the last 25 years stateside. Once upon a time, the petroleum companies were allowed to writwe off depreciation of their refineries. Once this allowance was removed by the Carter Administration, there was a serious financial discouragement to build new refineries, or even to upgrade and add capacity to the existing ones. The demand has increased, but there is a major league bottleneck in the supply chain. The refineries have a challenge producing the 40-odd blends of gas that are mandated by law here in the States.
Also remember that China and India, 2 nations with populations of over 1 billion each, have been industrializing. This places more demand upon the existing market of raw petroleum.
Originally posted by Modelcar Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Sunday, August 14, 2005 6:50 AM I heard on CNN that is more costly to produce ethanol then gas. In the 70s I use to buy "gasohol" but it never caught on with the driving public & it was finally not produced any longer. The time line then was $0.30 PG to $1.00 PG in short order[xx(] Originally posted by uspscsx [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Sunday, August 14, 2005 6:59 AM ...Dave you cite many truisms.....but to completely disband EPA restrictions we'll be headed back to smog so thick cities once again won't be able to breath....Must be a happy median in there {in specs.}, somewhere. Totally agree we have way too many gasoline blends to fool with and put up with it's contribitution to shortages and prices.....Need to redo those specs too... But if you are suggesting a formula to increase tonnage for truckers...{by adding axles and changing specs}, that I totally disagree with....There's enough weight slamming around right next to us as it is when we travel on our interstates now. And if it requires government backing for the shale oil and other projects, to that I say.."bring it on".... Quentin Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, August 14, 2005 12:24 PM Modelcar - The real danger to the economy of high fuel prices isn't in the transfer of consumers' discretionary income from toys to fuel, because the economy can absorb such internal transfers. The real danger is if high fuel prices cause an inflationary reaction for our goods due to higher transportation costs. One way to placate that possibility is to allow a greater load factor for truckers that can offset higher fuel costs, keeping the delivered price of goods nominal. Even if it is just temporary until the speculation diminishes, it is still the best and easiest way to avert the inflationary affects. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, August 14, 2005 2:06 PM Add axles add weight but only so far. 80,000 pounds gross is not that much less than 120,000 pounds gross. And the 600 Horsepower CAT which I think is a very good engine for heavy duty vehicles equippted with a Rockwell Transmission and final drive with all the latest technology will yeild only 5-7 mpg. Those extra axles will cost more to maintain and the damage to the highways somewhat increased. Some drivers are not very good at controlling 40 ton. What makes you think hauling 60 will be better? Sure.. a few more dollars in revenue. I rather put that freight on two trucks with 400 detroits and auto transmissions and have them get about 8 mpg and make a buck. Until we use technology that will enable Class 8 vehicles to have 600 horsepower and burn fuel at 6 gallons/hour or less (Or about 15-25 miles per gallon) and using gensets for sleeping and improving the revenue income by raising the rates charged to make the haul.... we will always be struggling to make a dollar per 100 spent as we have these last 20 years. I started out in the late 80's my pay was equivilant to .20 a mile and two meals with all the trimmings per day was less than 10 dollars. Now my pay is close to .42 cents and two meals cost near 30 dollars a day. That truck is STILL getting 7 miles to the gallon and have gotten much more intensive in the shop and cost at the dealer. Reply Edit Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Sunday, August 14, 2005 4:08 PM Futuremodel....I'm not necessary talking just about transfering spending from "toys" to fuel....almost all products we purchase....those in the necessary category count too and all will be effected if this fuel condition is here for long term....and not every one In the economy can make that transfer so easily. Say "larger truck capacity" anyway one cares to and my feelings on that will be the same.....If we're going to continue to mix autos and trucks on our main highways...{and It sure seem we will}, I think it's wrong to allow their size and load cap. to increase from where it is now. Slamming down one grade to get a jump on the next hill climb is bad enough now...Let's not make that even worse than it is. Quentin Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, August 14, 2005 5:25 PM The real reason the price of gas is up is not, ahem, not: greedy oil companies, or George Bush. The real reason are spot oil is bid on; people are buying into future people are saying that they think they can sell the oil later for over $60 a barrel. These people are driving the oil price up, many of them are Chinese who is sucking down a lot more of the worlds oil. The oil companies aren't the ones speculating, although speculating is the cause, this is a bubble. Like what happened to gold in the late 70's. Some of the people buying these futures would panic if they had to get the oil and store it. What they do is they sell the contract and make money and drive the price up. Other reasons affecting the price of gas are the fact that a new refinery hasn't been built in 25 years. Every area of the country uses a different government mandated formulation of gasoline. So if one refinery has a problem one producing the same type of gas may be n the other side of the country. To those who say bring it on; you must not realize the effect fuel prices have on everything, no just fuel and shipping. But every thing will cost more, plastics are oil based, everything requires shipping. $5 for a gallon of gas would affect everything you buy. Why do you want that? James[C):-)] Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, August 14, 2005 7:13 PM Oh George Bush is the problem? I disagree. I will still pay 5 dollars for a gallon of gas if necessary. Looking at my income and outflow I can afford 6.00 a gallon before having to shut the vehicles down or move to a city with mass transit or move closer to my job. I have stated these options including purchasing Hybrid vehicles as another possible. I still say bring it on. There are no new refinerys being built in the USA, no new oil fields being opened and brought on line soon and I think very little change in our driving habits in face of high prices. I still maintain my position bring it on. I dont blame Bush for this. I blame years of inaction to build, equipt and maintian new technolgies and sources of gasoline supply. We had this problem back in the Oil Embargo and every time we are at war. Looking back to world war two I see gas ration cards that are so severe that today's average joe schmo would NEVER tolerate such restrictions on his personal auto use. Perhaps it is because passenger trains reached into every little town and it isnt difficult to get around on the trains. Reply Edit rrnut282 Member sinceJanuary 2001 From: MP CF161.6 NS's New Castle District in NE Indiana 2,146 posts Posted by rrnut282 on Sunday, August 14, 2005 7:19 PM The reason the price of gas continues to climb is we continue to buy it. Until the demand flattens, the price can and will go up. Why do investors buy futures? Because they think (and are betting it will) go up. When demand drops, the speulators will get scared and get out of the market. What can we do? Slow down. Combine trips. Buy less fuel. Spendmore time time track-side watching trains go by instead of sitting in traffic wasting gas[:)] Someone mentioned ethanol a few posts back. Most cars can handle 10% without modification. It shouldn't be too difficult to come up with the technology to run vehicles on a reversed ratio. This is the next boon/bust industry. There are 6 proposed plants in Indiana alone. This is great news for railfans. Ethanol plants are rail-intensive. It takes a lot of corn (hauled in by rail) to distill ethanol. The "waste" product can be used to feed cattle. It should be generated in volumes to justify rail transportation also. The biggest benefit of ethanol is that it will keep the current gasoline-based tax structure intact. It wasn't just the oil companies that suppressed new technology in automobiles. Mike (2-8-2) Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,567 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, August 14, 2005 8:19 PM rrnut282: ethanol is not a real answer here. Ethanol receives approximately a $1.00 per gallon tax break in S.D.. I'm sure that other states are similiar. $1.00 per gallon, mixed at 10% per gallon = 10 cents per gallon subsidy. In S.D. the is a lot of E-85 fuel that is being touted as an answer. Most newer vehicles are able to use it. It sells for about 15% less ( due to subsidy, no doubt ) but gets somewhat lower gas mileage. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply waltersrails Member sinceJuly 2005 From: CSXT/B&O Flora IL 1,937 posts Posted by waltersrails on Sunday, August 14, 2005 8:34 PM ITS Bull for us little guys who try to make a living and can't even do that because of these stupid gas prices. I say we just swrew the envirmentalists and drill for that oil. ( Can't even drive to work any more) I like NS but CSX has the B&O. Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Sunday, August 14, 2005 8:53 PM ...WWII ration stamps....A, B, and C and T {tractor}, were very restrictive...Not much allowed per week, but people went along with it...of course {the exceptions, black market, etc..}, but people knew we were in a fight for our life....and country and everyone went all out to do their part....Attitudes were different. Quentin Reply edbenton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Back home on the Chi to KC racetrack 2,011 posts Posted by edbenton on Sunday, August 14, 2005 10:48 PM Another answer would be raise the CAFE standards on light trucks which would cover SUV's and Mini-vans right now it stands at 13.5 mpg is all for light trucks. Raise it to 20-25 mpg and that would help also. A Ford Excursion gets 16 mpg on the highway and that is with the diesel engine in it 10 mpg with the V-10 in it. I have a Chevy Venture mini-van and it gets 25+ mpg ont he highway. I can carry just as many people and the Excursion and still have room for all the luggage. Hybrids will help also lower fuel demand but our attitude towards needing a SUV to haul 2 adults and 2 kids needs to change. I was raised in the era of Station Wagons and they had more room than the SUV. My in-laws have 2 SUV's a Ford Explorer and an Isuszu Rodeo I had more room in my old Honda Prelude in the back seat than I do in either on of those vechiles. I am 6-6 and still fit in the back seat of my prelude with the seats all the way back. I can't even fit in the back seat of either one of the SUV's listed and in the front seat I am kissing the dashboard. God help me in a accident in either one of those if the airbag deploys. Sorry about ranting on my soapbox but oit is time for a massive change in this country I have seen the damage our current energy policy causes 1800 dead to sdecure our oil supply in a country that 10 years ago we did not even buy oil from. [soapbox][2c][banghead] Always at war with those that think OTR trucking is EASY. Reply Train Guy 3 Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Anywhere there are trains 578 posts Posted by Train Guy 3 on Sunday, August 14, 2005 11:09 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by waltersrails ITS Bull for us little guys who try to make a living and can't even do that because of these stupid gas prices. I say we just swrew the envirmentalists and drill for that oil. ( Can't even drive to work any more) I agree 100% to drill for the oil and say screw the enviormentalists. What do we lose by drilling? TG3 LOOK ! LISTEN ! LIVE ! Remember the 3. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, August 15, 2005 1:36 AM World oil production is 86 million barrels a day. World oil consumption is 86 million barrels a day or a little bit more. Oil consumption has increased 9 million barrels a day from last year. Three oil refineries in the US are down, one of them being the big Texas City oil refinery in Texas which produced a half million barrels of gas a day. The price has almost doubled in the last year and there has been no slack in demand. What is wrong with this picture is the new car lots are full of large pickups and SUVs, you would have thunk my now they would be dinosaurs..... Even my seven year old grandson can do the math, we are headed for another gas shortage soon with all of the lines all over again as demand surpassed our refinery capacity. Don't expect any help from the government. They know the numbers. The government won't move until the gas lines and shortages occur. The first item of business would be to lower the speed limits back down to 55 MPH, doing so will conserve 15 percent of our gas consumption. And the second item of business would be to increase gas mileage by legislation..... No more big pickups and SUVs getting anything less than 20 MPG CITY.... Of course, this will only provide a repreive for a few short years, and then it will happen all over again..... I suggest everyone do a google search on Peak Oil. Its here.... No politics involved, the price of gas is increasing due to supply and demands, the free marketplace. Anyone who doesn't see this correctly isn't reading the tea leaves..... What's its gonna take to wake up America, being slammed by a 2 X 4? We used to have a 180 day supply in reserves, its down to 54 days..... Yes, in March and April we used less than refined, but this summer has seen a big increase in consumption despite the prices going up dramatically..... T. Boone Pickens is warning that the crisis will hit before Christmas. He's one of the world's richest men. As far as there is a lot of oil in the ground, that's true. But its becoming harder to pump the oil, and we have reached our capacity to refine it..... He suggest we don't use our natural gas to produce electricty, which should be left to coal and nuclear power. We are after all the Saudi Arabia of coal.... We also need to look at how we package products with plastic. The days of plastic containers for milk and sodas should be gone. Trees are a renewable resource...... But there is no will in this government to do any conserving until we're out of gas..... We also need to think like the Europeans, 20 MPG is not good gas mileage. They think at least 30 MPG, if not 40 MPG. In fact the Volkswagon Lupo diesel gets 60 MPG, whereas the best selling car in Europe last year was the Volkswagon Polo diesel, which gets 50 MPG..... Diesels engines get approximately as a rule of thumb 33 percent more mileage than gasoline engines..... The Europeans have diesels in their Passats, Boras (Jettas), Golfs, Polos, and Lupos..... every sized car one can imagine from Volkswagon. Why haven't American car manufacturers done the same? Yep, they are still attempting to sell their gas hogs sitting in their new car lots. Dinosaurs all..... The news media has warned us... The facts are common knowledge..... Our consumption has passed our capacity to refine oil..... The Saudis are pumping as much as possible to fulfill demand. Yet, they are balking at pumping more, as we don't have the ability to refine it..... Yes, repealing the oil depretion allowance has finally caught up with us. What a stupid move by the Carter administration..... Burn the hand that provides us the goods.... Reply Edit 1234567»Last » Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. 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Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub
Originally posted by uspscsx [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Sunday, August 14, 2005 6:59 AM ...Dave you cite many truisms.....but to completely disband EPA restrictions we'll be headed back to smog so thick cities once again won't be able to breath....Must be a happy median in there {in specs.}, somewhere. Totally agree we have way too many gasoline blends to fool with and put up with it's contribitution to shortages and prices.....Need to redo those specs too... But if you are suggesting a formula to increase tonnage for truckers...{by adding axles and changing specs}, that I totally disagree with....There's enough weight slamming around right next to us as it is when we travel on our interstates now. And if it requires government backing for the shale oil and other projects, to that I say.."bring it on".... Quentin Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, August 14, 2005 12:24 PM Modelcar - The real danger to the economy of high fuel prices isn't in the transfer of consumers' discretionary income from toys to fuel, because the economy can absorb such internal transfers. The real danger is if high fuel prices cause an inflationary reaction for our goods due to higher transportation costs. One way to placate that possibility is to allow a greater load factor for truckers that can offset higher fuel costs, keeping the delivered price of goods nominal. Even if it is just temporary until the speculation diminishes, it is still the best and easiest way to avert the inflationary affects. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, August 14, 2005 2:06 PM Add axles add weight but only so far. 80,000 pounds gross is not that much less than 120,000 pounds gross. And the 600 Horsepower CAT which I think is a very good engine for heavy duty vehicles equippted with a Rockwell Transmission and final drive with all the latest technology will yeild only 5-7 mpg. Those extra axles will cost more to maintain and the damage to the highways somewhat increased. Some drivers are not very good at controlling 40 ton. What makes you think hauling 60 will be better? Sure.. a few more dollars in revenue. I rather put that freight on two trucks with 400 detroits and auto transmissions and have them get about 8 mpg and make a buck. Until we use technology that will enable Class 8 vehicles to have 600 horsepower and burn fuel at 6 gallons/hour or less (Or about 15-25 miles per gallon) and using gensets for sleeping and improving the revenue income by raising the rates charged to make the haul.... we will always be struggling to make a dollar per 100 spent as we have these last 20 years. I started out in the late 80's my pay was equivilant to .20 a mile and two meals with all the trimmings per day was less than 10 dollars. Now my pay is close to .42 cents and two meals cost near 30 dollars a day. That truck is STILL getting 7 miles to the gallon and have gotten much more intensive in the shop and cost at the dealer. Reply Edit Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Sunday, August 14, 2005 4:08 PM Futuremodel....I'm not necessary talking just about transfering spending from "toys" to fuel....almost all products we purchase....those in the necessary category count too and all will be effected if this fuel condition is here for long term....and not every one In the economy can make that transfer so easily. Say "larger truck capacity" anyway one cares to and my feelings on that will be the same.....If we're going to continue to mix autos and trucks on our main highways...{and It sure seem we will}, I think it's wrong to allow their size and load cap. to increase from where it is now. Slamming down one grade to get a jump on the next hill climb is bad enough now...Let's not make that even worse than it is. Quentin Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, August 14, 2005 5:25 PM The real reason the price of gas is up is not, ahem, not: greedy oil companies, or George Bush. The real reason are spot oil is bid on; people are buying into future people are saying that they think they can sell the oil later for over $60 a barrel. These people are driving the oil price up, many of them are Chinese who is sucking down a lot more of the worlds oil. The oil companies aren't the ones speculating, although speculating is the cause, this is a bubble. Like what happened to gold in the late 70's. Some of the people buying these futures would panic if they had to get the oil and store it. What they do is they sell the contract and make money and drive the price up. Other reasons affecting the price of gas are the fact that a new refinery hasn't been built in 25 years. Every area of the country uses a different government mandated formulation of gasoline. So if one refinery has a problem one producing the same type of gas may be n the other side of the country. To those who say bring it on; you must not realize the effect fuel prices have on everything, no just fuel and shipping. But every thing will cost more, plastics are oil based, everything requires shipping. $5 for a gallon of gas would affect everything you buy. Why do you want that? James[C):-)] Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, August 14, 2005 7:13 PM Oh George Bush is the problem? I disagree. I will still pay 5 dollars for a gallon of gas if necessary. Looking at my income and outflow I can afford 6.00 a gallon before having to shut the vehicles down or move to a city with mass transit or move closer to my job. I have stated these options including purchasing Hybrid vehicles as another possible. I still say bring it on. There are no new refinerys being built in the USA, no new oil fields being opened and brought on line soon and I think very little change in our driving habits in face of high prices. I still maintain my position bring it on. I dont blame Bush for this. I blame years of inaction to build, equipt and maintian new technolgies and sources of gasoline supply. We had this problem back in the Oil Embargo and every time we are at war. Looking back to world war two I see gas ration cards that are so severe that today's average joe schmo would NEVER tolerate such restrictions on his personal auto use. Perhaps it is because passenger trains reached into every little town and it isnt difficult to get around on the trains. Reply Edit rrnut282 Member sinceJanuary 2001 From: MP CF161.6 NS's New Castle District in NE Indiana 2,146 posts Posted by rrnut282 on Sunday, August 14, 2005 7:19 PM The reason the price of gas continues to climb is we continue to buy it. Until the demand flattens, the price can and will go up. Why do investors buy futures? Because they think (and are betting it will) go up. When demand drops, the speulators will get scared and get out of the market. What can we do? Slow down. Combine trips. Buy less fuel. Spendmore time time track-side watching trains go by instead of sitting in traffic wasting gas[:)] Someone mentioned ethanol a few posts back. Most cars can handle 10% without modification. It shouldn't be too difficult to come up with the technology to run vehicles on a reversed ratio. This is the next boon/bust industry. There are 6 proposed plants in Indiana alone. This is great news for railfans. Ethanol plants are rail-intensive. It takes a lot of corn (hauled in by rail) to distill ethanol. The "waste" product can be used to feed cattle. It should be generated in volumes to justify rail transportation also. The biggest benefit of ethanol is that it will keep the current gasoline-based tax structure intact. It wasn't just the oil companies that suppressed new technology in automobiles. Mike (2-8-2) Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,567 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, August 14, 2005 8:19 PM rrnut282: ethanol is not a real answer here. Ethanol receives approximately a $1.00 per gallon tax break in S.D.. I'm sure that other states are similiar. $1.00 per gallon, mixed at 10% per gallon = 10 cents per gallon subsidy. In S.D. the is a lot of E-85 fuel that is being touted as an answer. Most newer vehicles are able to use it. It sells for about 15% less ( due to subsidy, no doubt ) but gets somewhat lower gas mileage. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply waltersrails Member sinceJuly 2005 From: CSXT/B&O Flora IL 1,937 posts Posted by waltersrails on Sunday, August 14, 2005 8:34 PM ITS Bull for us little guys who try to make a living and can't even do that because of these stupid gas prices. I say we just swrew the envirmentalists and drill for that oil. ( Can't even drive to work any more) I like NS but CSX has the B&O. Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Sunday, August 14, 2005 8:53 PM ...WWII ration stamps....A, B, and C and T {tractor}, were very restrictive...Not much allowed per week, but people went along with it...of course {the exceptions, black market, etc..}, but people knew we were in a fight for our life....and country and everyone went all out to do their part....Attitudes were different. Quentin Reply edbenton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Back home on the Chi to KC racetrack 2,011 posts Posted by edbenton on Sunday, August 14, 2005 10:48 PM Another answer would be raise the CAFE standards on light trucks which would cover SUV's and Mini-vans right now it stands at 13.5 mpg is all for light trucks. Raise it to 20-25 mpg and that would help also. A Ford Excursion gets 16 mpg on the highway and that is with the diesel engine in it 10 mpg with the V-10 in it. I have a Chevy Venture mini-van and it gets 25+ mpg ont he highway. I can carry just as many people and the Excursion and still have room for all the luggage. Hybrids will help also lower fuel demand but our attitude towards needing a SUV to haul 2 adults and 2 kids needs to change. I was raised in the era of Station Wagons and they had more room than the SUV. My in-laws have 2 SUV's a Ford Explorer and an Isuszu Rodeo I had more room in my old Honda Prelude in the back seat than I do in either on of those vechiles. I am 6-6 and still fit in the back seat of my prelude with the seats all the way back. I can't even fit in the back seat of either one of the SUV's listed and in the front seat I am kissing the dashboard. God help me in a accident in either one of those if the airbag deploys. Sorry about ranting on my soapbox but oit is time for a massive change in this country I have seen the damage our current energy policy causes 1800 dead to sdecure our oil supply in a country that 10 years ago we did not even buy oil from. [soapbox][2c][banghead] Always at war with those that think OTR trucking is EASY. Reply Train Guy 3 Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Anywhere there are trains 578 posts Posted by Train Guy 3 on Sunday, August 14, 2005 11:09 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by waltersrails ITS Bull for us little guys who try to make a living and can't even do that because of these stupid gas prices. I say we just swrew the envirmentalists and drill for that oil. ( Can't even drive to work any more) I agree 100% to drill for the oil and say screw the enviormentalists. What do we lose by drilling? TG3 LOOK ! LISTEN ! LIVE ! Remember the 3. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, August 15, 2005 1:36 AM World oil production is 86 million barrels a day. World oil consumption is 86 million barrels a day or a little bit more. Oil consumption has increased 9 million barrels a day from last year. Three oil refineries in the US are down, one of them being the big Texas City oil refinery in Texas which produced a half million barrels of gas a day. The price has almost doubled in the last year and there has been no slack in demand. What is wrong with this picture is the new car lots are full of large pickups and SUVs, you would have thunk my now they would be dinosaurs..... Even my seven year old grandson can do the math, we are headed for another gas shortage soon with all of the lines all over again as demand surpassed our refinery capacity. Don't expect any help from the government. They know the numbers. The government won't move until the gas lines and shortages occur. The first item of business would be to lower the speed limits back down to 55 MPH, doing so will conserve 15 percent of our gas consumption. And the second item of business would be to increase gas mileage by legislation..... No more big pickups and SUVs getting anything less than 20 MPG CITY.... Of course, this will only provide a repreive for a few short years, and then it will happen all over again..... I suggest everyone do a google search on Peak Oil. Its here.... No politics involved, the price of gas is increasing due to supply and demands, the free marketplace. Anyone who doesn't see this correctly isn't reading the tea leaves..... What's its gonna take to wake up America, being slammed by a 2 X 4? We used to have a 180 day supply in reserves, its down to 54 days..... Yes, in March and April we used less than refined, but this summer has seen a big increase in consumption despite the prices going up dramatically..... T. Boone Pickens is warning that the crisis will hit before Christmas. He's one of the world's richest men. As far as there is a lot of oil in the ground, that's true. But its becoming harder to pump the oil, and we have reached our capacity to refine it..... He suggest we don't use our natural gas to produce electricty, which should be left to coal and nuclear power. We are after all the Saudi Arabia of coal.... We also need to look at how we package products with plastic. The days of plastic containers for milk and sodas should be gone. Trees are a renewable resource...... But there is no will in this government to do any conserving until we're out of gas..... We also need to think like the Europeans, 20 MPG is not good gas mileage. They think at least 30 MPG, if not 40 MPG. In fact the Volkswagon Lupo diesel gets 60 MPG, whereas the best selling car in Europe last year was the Volkswagon Polo diesel, which gets 50 MPG..... Diesels engines get approximately as a rule of thumb 33 percent more mileage than gasoline engines..... The Europeans have diesels in their Passats, Boras (Jettas), Golfs, Polos, and Lupos..... every sized car one can imagine from Volkswagon. Why haven't American car manufacturers done the same? Yep, they are still attempting to sell their gas hogs sitting in their new car lots. Dinosaurs all..... The news media has warned us... The facts are common knowledge..... Our consumption has passed our capacity to refine oil..... The Saudis are pumping as much as possible to fulfill demand. Yet, they are balking at pumping more, as we don't have the ability to refine it..... Yes, repealing the oil depretion allowance has finally caught up with us. What a stupid move by the Carter administration..... Burn the hand that provides us the goods.... Reply Edit 1234567»Last » Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
QUOTE: Originally posted by waltersrails ITS Bull for us little guys who try to make a living and can't even do that because of these stupid gas prices. I say we just swrew the envirmentalists and drill for that oil. ( Can't even drive to work any more)
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