Railroad concern for crossing safety

[eolafan]

For those of you who may watch professional wrestling (I do with my young son once in a while), you may have seen a character who goes by the name of "Hurricane" who is supposed to be a sort of super-hero (aka crusader), and is really a pathetic little dweeb ina stupid costumer who gets the C_ _ P beat out of him all the time because he really is not good and has no real talent....REMINDS ME OF OUR FRIEND MISSOURI...How about you guys?

[sooblue]

QUOTE: Originally posted by csxns

Missouri what do you mean by three a day.

He means he has become a crusader fighting against all the wickedness of the RRs.

Fighting against the evil engineers who kill three innocent people a day.
Fighting against the corporate devil that earns $$$.

Don't anyone take this wrong!
Missouri should be a crusader, it is his best destiny.
However, the crusade is wrong. It should be a crusade to educate.
Educate the RRs
Educate the public
It should be a positive crusade not a negative waste of print space!
Missouri, who ever you are. You’re wasting your time and effort on the negative.
You need to crusade from the positive side. People listen to that.
Your spirit and energy could be used in a program like operation lifesaver or it's equivalent.
Sooblue

[csxns]

Missouri what do you mean by three a day.

[edblysard]

Now thats obscene, quoteing a Beatles song in all of your junk, but, now that I think about it, thats the only intelligent thing youve ever written here, so, yeah, why dont you "Let it Be?"

QUOTE: Originally posted by missouri

QUOTE: Originally posted by csxns

MISSOURI can you tell us please tell us.Have you ever lost somebody in a crossing collision.You are getting to a lot of people.You cant change peoples mind if they like trains.

I lose about three a day---But if I don't do all I can to prevent it ---It makes me as quilty as the railroads, FRA, and anybody else who lets them kill at will. It's part of the job the brainwashing starts pretty early I can imagine. ONLY IF YOU LET IT BE!!!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by csxns

MISSOURI can you tell us please tell us.Have you ever lost somebody in a crossing collision.You are getting to a lot of people.You cant change peoples mind if they like trains.

I lose about three a day---But if I don't do all I can to prevent it ---It makes me as quilty as the railroads, FRA, and anybody else who lets them kill at will. It's part of the job the brainwashing starts pretty early I can imagine. ONLY IF YOU LET IT BE!!!

[csxns]

MISSOURI can you tell us please tell us.Have you ever lost somebody in a crossing collision.You are getting to a lot of people.You cant change peoples mind if they like trains.

[Anonymous]

Hoo Rah ED

and missouri.. that was an invalid answer to the question

the correct answer was D.

[edblysard]

Wear dresses to work? Only if they have long sleeves, and a *** pocket for my smokes.
Yup, your right, unions are corrupt.
No, most railroads are publicly traded companies now, the robber barons are all dead. Rich, but dead.
And exactly what do you expect to find on railroad tracks, except a train?
Maybe your nextdoor neighbor, riding his big wheel?
Most of the rest of the thinking mammals expect a train.
Look, listen, Live.
Uniheads Unite!
Ed[8]

[Anonymous]

OR the GD crossing was blind
The train was going too fast for conditions
The robber baron rail lords are $$$ hungry
The RR unions are corrupt
The railroaders should wear dresses to work?????????

[JoeKoh]

oh me me me i know i know i know
stay safe
joe

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by missouri

http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/media/twgreport.htm#663 See just lights is only good for train speeds of 25 mph. Check out the fatalities this year. The trains were all going over 40 mph when they broadsided the drivers.

OKAY now for who wants to be a millionaire.. for 1 million dollars


Why were the drivers "Broadsided"?

was it beacsue

A) the conductor turned the steering wheel the wrong way
B) The conductor forgot he was driving his train on aspault that day
C) the rails were uprouted by you and bent to face the driver in the car
D) the car went around a closed gates and was hit by a train..

time is running out mr pines.. please select an answer...

[Anonymous]

Pssst brainstein Wabash 1. The gate event recorder would probably be in the $12,000 tax-payer paid for gate equipment house not on the engine. Least ways that's where it was ripped out of before the BOYZ from the NTSB got there.

The testimony never said the soybeans shunted (shorted out the tracks). They said the bean coating prevented the shunt. You know like putting electrical tape over a electrical connection where a person isn't shocked. So basically the switch was turned off.

[wabash1]

QUOTE: Originally posted by missouri

Well Ironhorseman GE owns one signal compnay now and Westinghouse the other. COAX came in when was it around 1960 or so. We landed on the moon when?
Tell me:
Where is one witness seeing the truck going around the gate!
WHY did the railroad rip the event recorder out before the NTSB got to it.
Why did the broken gate disappear? Wouldn't be because it would show an internal or external fracture now could it?
How did the engineer lock of the brakes? You have to watch the simulation closely.
...Then there was a situation where a grain car
was leaking soy meal. It has tendency to cause a
coating on the subsequent axles in that car, and we had
a momentary loss of shunt. While the train was
transferring some crossings, the gates started up and
went back down...
MR. WALPERT: Subsequent to the accident,
have there been any reports of false activations to
your knowledge?
MR. SHARKEY: I don't recall.
http://www.ntsb.gov/events/1999/bourbonnais/trans_990914.txt
http://www.ntsb.gov/events/1999/bourbonnais/trans_990913.txt
http://www.ntsb.gov/events/1999/bourbonnais/trans_990915.txt
http://www.ntsb.gov/Events/2002/bourbonnais/amtrak59_anim.htm
http://www.ntsb.gov/Events/2002/bourbonnais/amtrak59_anim.htm

1st things first. I dont care who owns the signal company. i dont like ge products period. It doesnt matter who makes the signal if it works then fine. if it dont there are safty precautions built in. the signals have been in place for years and it seems to me only people who cant read and use common sense are the ones who get killed.

you asked how did the railroad rip the recorder out before the NTSB got there You have no idea what you are saying first off do you even know where the event recorder is? and even more important do you know how it is afixed to the engine? My answer is no to you. there is no way you can just go up and take these things off a engine. and you haft to remove all of them if you was hiding something. why cause they are all recording. but with this accedent there is something you dont know also. since the train a amtrak was operated on illinois central railroad the first people who investigated was the ic railroad. along with the amtrac officials. who intern had help from the ntsb.. The ic railroad is the owner of the railroad so it was their heads on the chopping block. they had to prove that the crossing worked properly.

Now there is no way to lock the brakes up on a trains at speed. the only way you would do this is after a emergency application ( and this engineer did this) would be not to bail the brakes in which the pressures in the locomotive cylinders can and do reach and exceed 100 psi. in turn locking and flat spotting wheels. these are exspensive to replace and a mark on your record if you do this. hence forth for simulation perposes ( it proves more graphic for normal people ) they show locked wheels. Have you ever seen a train go by with a wheel smoking. most generally this is a brake stuck on. wheel not sliding just brakes rubbing .

as far as a grain car and its soy bean load. this is a crock. we lose grain and beans regularly. it never shunts a track. but lets say it did the siding or spur it would affect wont do anything for the main line. and you make it sound that the only thing there was that car. still you would have a engine and once past that point everything would work perfect anyways. so you have several diferant ways to alert traffic including the dreaded flagman that has to dodge traffic that wont stop anyways. But in going back and reading your post ( cut and pasted to further your cause) soymeal no big deal and trailing axels. you still have a long lead and a island circut. on todays systems there is no way the circut would reset that fast on a main line where everything is clean.

In reality you grasping for what ever makes your case and not having any idea what you are talking about. and not remebering what year exactly we landed on the moon i can tell you what i was doing it was at night or evening if you want exactly. summer cause i wasnt in school. the neighbors was over and was drinking beer. with my parents. ( the ones who taught me to stop look listen and live) and so you can laugh at me call me names ill say it was 1968 or 69. and the rumor was that when the ship landed the earth would blow up .

[eolafan]

I wonder if there was a grassy knoll near the accident site in Bourbonnais? Now there's food for thought!
ONLY KIDDING FOLKS, but I'll bet Missouri is getting all excited right about now.

[Anonymous]

Well Ironhorseman GE owns one signal compnay now and Westinghouse the other. COAX came in when was it around 1960 or so. We landed on the moon when?
Tell me:
Where is one witness seeing the truck going around the gate!
WHY did the railroad rip the event recorder out before the NTSB got to it.
Why did the broken gate disappear? Wouldn't be because it would show an internal or external fracture now could it?
How did the engineer lock of the brakes? You have to watch the simulation closely.
...Then there was a situation where a grain car
was leaking soy meal. It has tendency to cause a
coating on the subsequent axles in that car, and we had
a momentary loss of shunt. While the train was
transferring some crossings, the gates started up and
went back down...
MR. WALPERT: Subsequent to the accident,
have there been any reports of false activations to
your knowledge?
MR. SHARKEY: I don't recall.
http://www.ntsb.gov/events/1999/bourbonnais/trans_990914.txt
http://www.ntsb.gov/events/1999/bourbonnais/trans_990913.txt
http://www.ntsb.gov/events/1999/bourbonnais/trans_990915.txt
http://www.ntsb.gov/Events/2002/bourbonnais/amtrak59_anim.htm
http://www.ntsb.gov/Events/2002/bourbonnais/amtrak59_anim.htm

[Anonymous]

http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/media/twgreport.htm#663 See just lights is only good for train speeds of 25 mph. Check out the fatalities this year. The trains were all going over 40 mph when they broadsided the drivers. Anything less than 40 and the trains were broadsided at dark crossings. The railroads can repair the roads on their own damn property like anybody else. Their gross overcharges OR being paid at all takes away from active crossing equipment. Take the two together and Iowa pisses the funds into the railroads pocket every year and get NOTHING accomplished safety wise.

[Anonymous]

Woha Woha

Slow down Tiny Pines..

What do you want.. crossings to be redone or not

Make up your Bloody mind!

[Anonymous]

Like I said around $80,000.

http://www.infoiowa.state.ia.us/DOT/2002/itip/rail.pdf And then in Iowa crossing lights are $120,000, $100,000, $80,000 and you say no more than $10,000. Then the tax payers are paying the railroads like $40,000 to redo the crossing. Most roads are what 20 feet wide and the right of way 100 feet long so 2,000 sq. feet ---hmmm $20 bucks a square foot---So whats the difference between the black top at highway crossings and highways?

[ironhorseman]

For missouri:

Class is now in session, pay attention.

RE: CROSSING GATE TECHNOLOGY

I did some research specifically concerning crossing gate mechanism activation systems. Here is what I found:

You made the claim about them being 1800s technology. According to Western-Cullen-Hayes, Inc. they pioneered the first automatic crossing bell in 1889. In 1914 they installed the first crossing light called a wig-wag. In 1936 they were the first to install a crossing arm.

In order to activate these systems in the year 2003 they have created, manufactured, and marked a device called Railroad Wheel Sensors and Amplifiers.

From the Western-Cullen-Hayes, Inc. website:

“General Description:
“Our railroad wheel sensors and amplifiers are used wherever information regarding the direction, speed or presence of a piece of railroad rolling stock is required.

“Principle of Operation:
“Inductive coils inside each sensor are connected by two wires to a remote amplifier. When the flange of the railroad wheel enters the high-frequency field of the sensors, the sensor oscillators are dampened, resulting in a change of amplitude. This frequency shift is reflected back to the amplifier, which generates an optical coupler output.”

To read more in detail and see pictures visit www.ach.com > products > railroad signal > wheel sensors.

That’s not all. The website you borrowed your uncited info from, Union Switch & Signal (http://www.switch.com/products/4quadbrochure.htm), apparently a competitor of ACH, also makes crossing gate mechanisms and they pretty much have the same standards.

From that website:
“Track Circuits:
“The track circuits detect the presence of a train within the crossing approaches and on the island (where track and road meet), and they initiate operation of the highway-crossing warning system.”

All of these mechanisms are modern devices. The idea of a moving train triggering a crossing gate is not new, but the modifications and advancements are. To back this claim I went to the US Patent Office website and did all the searching on “crossing gate mechanisms” and found some pretty darn modern patents. The newest patent is from 1997, hardly a Nineteenth Century invention. It can all be found at http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/search-bool.html by typing in the search field “crossing gate mechanism.” The search results can be found at http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph
Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=0&f=S&l=50&TERM1=Crossing+Gate+Mechanism&FIELD1=&co1=AND&TERM2=&FIELD2=&d=ptxt

Now, back what started this crossing gate controversy was you said you viewed a grade crossing recently where the train stopped short of the crossing, but the lights did not shut off, the arms did not go up, the crews made no attempt to deactivate the crossing for the duration of their stop, and motorist went around.

Why didn’t the crews deactivate the gates? Pure and simple: for safety reasons. The situation may not have been safe to do so. But I wasn’t there and since I don’t have many details about the railroad, the area, the situation, etc. I can only speculate because you weren’t specific enough.

Before you go making wild accusations you need to do your research. Read those websites I gave you. Copy and paste don’t count. Not referencing your work doesn’t count. Twisting the facts don’t count. Don’t tell me the railroads and equipment manufactures are not doing everything to keep you safe. If your going to play hardball with me you better be have your mitt ready because I’ll throw back with accuracy anything you can lob at me.

Having that said, I hereby make a motoion that the matter of crossing gate technology be closed.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kevinstheRRman
Either the Maker of Block signal signals are going to alot of strip bars and putting 60, 000 dollars in one denominations down a Strippers thong

I think we need to investigate this -- where's the signup list for volunteers? [:p]

[Anonymous]

80, 000 bucks for a block signal system.. bull... one of thsoe things.. can't cost more then 5 grand. how much can a frislly light machine that rotates and has three different aspects cost? surely not 80, 000 bucks.. let's say at most they're 20, 000$ thats 60, 000 bucks to spare..

Either the Maker of Block signal signals are going to alot of strip bars and putting 60, 000 dollars in one denominations down a Strippers thong

------------OR----------

there significantly less then what you said.. guessing B is the more aprropriate answer

[wabash1]

missouri as usual you are wrong but this is no suprise to everyone here. all this stuff you are spitting out about europe signal system and usa system sheilded coax cable for radio signals for crossing ( i guess this is why you want cameras on rear of trains) soy beans keeping signals from working. you are windier than a bag of .. you get the point. In other words you are spitting out stuff that was rumored back in 1960 us kids use to say about the signals it was hogwa***hen like now. salt and snow does nothing to the signal. lightning does nothing to it. unless it is hit by it. then it goes into failsafe and keeps ringing and flashing til its fixed. otherwise the usa has the best system around. the 5 sec the gate need to be down is included into the time of warning of 20 sec. but of couse you knew this you just wanted to be contaversatle. and the amtrak train in illinois the signal system was working perfect. it was the truck driver who was alittle off. this is why he lost his job and his company paid the damages. but you knew this also i am sure.

[Anonymous]

About $80,000

[Anonymous]

HEy mr.pines.. do you know the diff between block signaling and RR crossing lights?

[Anonymous]

"Most states have laws which specifiy the minimum crossing-signal warning time given to motorists and pedestrians, usually 20 to 30 seconds, before a train occupies the crossing. What all motorists should know is that at all grade crossings, the train has the right of way as stated in a 1934 decision of the U.S. Supreme Court."

That's actually a Federal statute that says lights/gates are to give 20 seconds warning--- whoops I forgot the gates are to be down 5 seconds before the train arrives now since the crooks covered the RRs butts lately. Maybe the Secretary of Transportation and his Supreme Court buddies can get in their wheelchairs at a three track crossing and demonstrate on Network T.V. just exactly how bright they are.

The T.V. industry changed from flat lead cable to shielded coaxial cable because the flat lead (railroad track) was bad to pick up outside interference. Is that why the RRs still use the tracks as a transmitting antenna because the metal in them will see lightning, electrical interference, bad spark plugs, rust, what was it oh yeah soy beans spilt in Bourbonnais after the Amtrak crashed so the gates didn't see the train. And what does that salt and snow do?

Look up the crossing systems in Europe that use 4 beeper frequiencies (shielded) so there is a back up or two not the Oh the equipment failed quick hide the smokin' gun which happens all the time according to the crossing EXPERTS I have talked to.

[JoeKoh]

Im still waiting for Mr.Pines to respond to my post.Stay safe
joe

[dekemd]

Ed,

He won't get me riled up. I've been following the M&M saga for quite a while. I find it interesting how he changes the context on things, or leave facts out. Almost like a lawyer or a criminal. I work in law enforcement so dealing with people like this is a daily occurance. When backed in to a corner they'll usually back off or ignore what was said like they didn't hear it. For example, as I read the last post which at the time was made by ironhorseman, who made some very good points with good references, there were two members looking at this topic; myself and Mr. Missouri. I waited 20 minutes and he never replied to ironhorseman's post. But to give him the benifit of the doubt, he may be looking up the references. Your notice too that he didn't answer my post of yours either. Kind of like selective hearing[:)]

Derrick

quote]Originally posted by edblysard

Linda Morgan, before she resigned from the FRA, stated that,"railroads love to close crossings, in fact, railroads and the FRA belive the safest crossing is the one that isnt there". Underpases and overpasses were the most common in cities before the 50s. Go the the oldest part of your city, and look at how the street designers handled grade crossings. They didnt, they went under the tracks more than they went across them. Those of us who railroad for a living would love for the new moderen designers to learn a lesson from the past.
But... by now you have realized that no matter what you say to this clown[:o)]he wont listen, He has a problem with railroads and railroaders. Safety is not a concern of his, getting attention is.
So Derrick, dont let him get you too riled up, thats how he gets his groove on[:D].
Stay Frosty,

[ironhorseman]

OK, missouri dude, I did some research for you. You didn't site the source you referenced about the signaling. I found it word for word at http://www.switch.com/about/about.htm

You plagerize quite well. While your copy and paste skills are exceptional, your ability to think critically, however, is less than adequate. The article you copied refers to BLOCK SIGNALING, not CROSSING ARMS an FLASHING LIGHT activation which is what we were talking about.

Your second oversight is the part where it says this continues to be a "foundation of rail signaling and communications today." It's the FOUNDATION. That doesn't mean the exact same systems from 1870 are in place today. True, it is 1870s technology, but it works and works well. I still use a wooden pencil to write with but I guess then that makes me old fashioned.

I will go to the library on Monday, just for you, like I promised and look up the patent for the grade crossing devices JUST FOR YOU.

But before I do that let me quote you something from Trains Magazine Vol. 62, No. 1 January 2002 Pg. 80 "Ask Trains:"
"Q: How are railroad grade-crossing lights and gates activated?

"A: In the 1950s, audio frequency overly (AFO) track circuits were adopted by railroads for grade-crossing signal-control circuits, because this did not require insulated joints in the rails. The circuits were refined to not only detect the presence of a train, but also to sence its movement toward the crossing and start the warning signals based on that. If the train stopped moving, the warning signals were turned off; resumption of movement toward the crossing restarted them....

"Most installations now have constant warning time (CWT) control systems, which also utilize AFO on the rail...The warning devices thus can distinguish between fast- and slow-moving trains giving motorists the same amount of warning."

Now this part is important so pay attention:

"Most states have laws which specifiy the minimum crossing-signal warning time given to motorists and pedestrians, usually 20 to 30 seconds, before a train occupies the crossing. What all motorists should know is that at all grade crossings, the train has the right of way as stated in a 1934 decision of the U.S. Supreme Court."

The reply was written by Steve Patterson, BNSF, Operation Lifesaver; and Clayton C. Tinkham

If you want to look up US Supreme Court cases post 1893 I suggest http://findlaw.com

There, put that in your pipe and smoke it.

[wabash1]

missouri you almost said something that made sense. you was gettign a point across then fell apart problems are

1) weight has nothing to do with activation of a signal, the shunting of a track to close a circut.

dispatcher can not have a signal cut out. he has no authority it goes much higher than that. all signals operate on electricity and the power comes from the local power company. the only time they dont use the power from the power company is when the power is out. then the signals go to battery backup..

keep up the work you always have us correcting your mistakes, and if you research something read all of it not just little parts and add your opinion as fillers that is where you keep getting the wrong ideas

[Anonymous]

The patented invention of the electric closed track circuit by Dr. William Robinson in 1872 gave the railroad industry its first means of automatic vital signaling.

The track circuit is used to detect the presence of a train or a broken rail within a block of track. When an electric current traveling through the rails in a block of track is shorted by the presence of a train or interrupted by a break in the rail, a red signal indicates danger to approaching trains. When the track is clear, the closed circuit activates a green signal to indicate that approaching trains can enter the block.

In 1878, Dr. William Robinson founded the Union Electric Signal Co. to hold his patents, to produce track circuits, and to install them. This technology continues to be a foundation of rail signaling and communications today.