British Railway Operations

[owlsroost]

Not sure furlongs are relevant to iron horses, so probably not....[;)][:)]

Actually (as far as I know) UK railways have traditionally measured distances in just miles, chains and yards - not furlongs - so mentioning furlongs was a bit of an aberation anyway!

Tony

[Murphy Siding]

Tony: Thanks for the review on chainsand furlongs. Would this also be important to an eastern carrier with stallions on their engines?

[owlsroost]

QUOTE: In Briton they used to measure distances along the tracks in chains, stopping distances and stuff. Do Briti***rains still use mph for train speed?

Yes, speeds (on roads as well as railways) are still measured in mph. Road and rail distances are also measured in miles, but since the construction industry switched to metric measurements years ago, I suspect we might see a gradual changeover to km etc on the railway (but that's just a personal opinion). It's already happened with rolling stock related measurements (weight, length, fluid capacities etc).

Road vehicle speedometers in the UK have been marked in km/h as well as mph for many years (for driving elsewhere in Europe), so changing generally to using km rather than miles would be more of a cultural issue than a practical one.

In general conversation, people normally still talk about engine power outputs in horsepower, and car fuel consumption in miles per gallon - even though we've been buying fuel by the litre for some time now.

Tony

P.S. 1 chain = 22 yards, 10 chains = 1 furlong (still important in the horse racing world), 8 furlongs = 1 mile.

[Murphy Siding]

I'm going to guess centimeters per hour-wouldn't those numbers look impressive?[:)]

[TH&B]

We say right and wrong, would you say left and wrong? Well I always drive in the center of the road that way it realy doesn't matter what country I'm in.

Just kidding.

The French (SNCF) and the Swedish (SJ) run their trains on the left, their cars run on the right. In the USA the C&NW ran on the left track.

In Briton they used to measure distances along the tracks in chains, stopping distances and stuff. Do Briti***rains still use mph for train speed?

[owlsroost]

Nah - we run trains on the correct (left) side of the 'road' - we did it first! [:)][;)]

Some things have resisted the march of metrication though - the pubs still serve beer by the pint.....

Tony

[Murphy Siding]

Yeah, and I suppose they drive on the wrong side of the (rail)road too? I know an inch equals 2.54 mm. It takes me a little longer to convert some of those other things![:o)]

[owlsroost]

QUOTE: The train is usually 10,000 tons (on a bad day even 10,000 tonnes)

I suppose if I was wearing my engineering hat (I earn my daily crust designing electronics) I should be quoting locomotive power outputs in kW or MW (and tractive effort in Newtons) but tradition dies hard on the railways [:)] - and of course the trains run on 1435mm gauge track on this side of the pond [;)]

Tony

[Anonymous]

440.....they are consistently timed at "up to 60MPH" - i.e on the main line must be a metronomic 60MPH.

[Anonymous]

You have to remember the differing emphasis and priorities - as Tony states over here it is passenger trains. Freight takes second place. In one North London box; if any freight was not at a certain place by 6.45 in the morning then it would be held until 9.30AM - basically because even timed at a minimum of 60mph they were too slow......

[TH&B]

Single units can sometimes pull ALOT. Canadian Pacific runs a daily train from Toronto to Montreal with only one engine (often an AC4400 (4400hp)). The train is usualy 10,000 tons (on a bad day even 10,000 tonnes) and seems to move at walking speed all the way for 300 miles but it does actualy reach 50mph on down grade and level streches. Track speed is 60mph for fast freights. Just don't get stopped in Belleville or it'll never get going again.

[Murphy Siding]

Interesting. I can't the last time I saw a train on a mainline with only one engine.

[owlsroost]

The most powerful diesel locos are around 3200hp (Classes 59, 60, 66 and 67) - the Class 66 are by far the majority of the fleet currently. Freight electric locos run from about 4000hp (Class 86) to 6700hp (Class 92 - built for Channel Tunnel traffic, but also used for internal services).

It's not common to have more than one loco on a freight train - passing loops, sidings, yards etc limit train lengths to around 750 metres max so the heaviest trains are generally not much over 3000 tonnes - most are under 2000 tonnes. The heaviest trains carry crushed rock from Somerset eastwards to the London area - they have done trial runs up to 5000 tonnes in the past but (I think) decided the costs of upgrading the whole route to do this regularly were too high. These are normally hauled by a single Class 59 diesel (which are more or less an SD50 under the skin).

The maximum axle load is 25.4 tonnes (but not all lines are cleared for this), top speeds are generally 45-60mph for bulk commodities, 75mph for intermodal and other fast freight. There is also some postal and parcels traffic which runs up to 100mph (using passenger style equipment) - the Class 67 diesels are cleared for 125mph.

So basically (compared to the US) it's short, fast, light freight trains - this also of course helps keep them out of the way of the passenger trains which are the majority traffic on most lines.

Tony

(1 tonne = 1000kg = approx 2200 lbs)

[Murphy Siding]

Guys: ( At least I'm presuming you're all guys?) How big is an average Briti***rain consist, and what kind of horsepower would it require?

[Anonymous]

Its all unionised to one degree or another.

[owlsroost]

You really need someone from inside the industry to comment, but I'd guess that most of the freight operators in the UK are unionised (BR was, and EWS and Freightliner - the two big players - are privatised ex-BR operations). It isn't unionism as such that's the issue, it's the unions attitude to change - the French example above is an extreme example of this.

In the UK we went through a lot of pain in the 80's to get scale back trade union power and arrive at a sensible balance between employers, unions, and the state. Although the unions strongly opposed rail privatisation in the UK, (and still snipe at it periodically) once it happened they were pragmatic and just got on with the job of representing the interests of their members in the new private companies - as they should do.

Tony

[Tulyar15]

I'm not sure. GB Railways, who are one of the open access operators in Britain are now part of FirstGroup (who hold the GW, Trans Pennine and Scot Rail franchises) so they probably recognise unions. Not sure what DRS do, but Freightliner being ex-BR also probably have unions.

Owlsroot - all Eurostar crews have to be tri-lingual. The rule is that conversations with signallers must be in the host countries language as signallers are not expected to be multi-lingual. So a Eurostar driver who has to talk to a Flemish speaking Belgian siganller must be able to do so in Flemish.

[Murphy Siding]

Are British, and other European open access rail systems neccesarily all non-union? or does it vary by country?

Thanks

[owlsroost]

QUOTE: it was just the way that it was "privatised" which drives me crackers.....

Agreed ! (in particular the unseemly haste)

QUOTE: To answer a few points - Eurostar drivers are trained in all three languages - French being the driver. Anybody who works Ashford IECC must be able to speak French. This is due to classic line diversions and the plethora of signalboxes thereon.

Thanks for the clarification - it's been such a long time since I read about Eurostar driver training I couldn't remember if Flemish was included (Flemish - closely related to Dutch - and French are the two official languages in Belgium).

By the way, does this mean that French and Belgium Eurostar drivers are not required to speak English, or just so the people in Ashford can talk to their French counterparts?

(and for the non-UK readers, 'Ashford IECC' is the main signalling control centre in that part of south-east England, controlling both the classic lines in the area and the new high-speed line to London from the tunnel portal).

Just flicked through one of the magazines here, and there's a news piece about Connex (a private train operator) running the first open-access freight train in France recently, watched by 300 militant trade unionists who later set fire to the track apparently - the French riot police were also in attendance !!

Tony

[Anonymous]

There is sometime a misunderstanding over the nature of EU direcrtives; they are quite broad and up to each member state to incorporate into thier own law how they wish. The open access directive is basically an accounting mechanism - at the bottom level there just has to be transparency between the track operation and the movement of trains thereon. It was the then Tory government who decided to foist this utter shambles in the name of "privitisation" by pursuing an ideologically driven structure upon the railway industry. I have no beef about working for a private company; it was just the way that it was "privatised" which drives me crackers.....

To answer a few points - Eurostar drivers are trained in all three languages - French being the driver. Anybody who works Ashford IECC must be able to speak French. This is due to classic line diversions and the plethora of signalboxes thereon.

2) In theory there is nothing to stop French drivers working trains thru the tunnel to London if they are passed competent in Brit rules. The way of operating is different in all countries - the EU is trying to work something on this - however it is already done with Eurostar so why not freight?

3) With the demise of railtrack all the infrastructure operators are basically in the hands of the state within the EU. The Brit government may try and persuade us that NR is private however it is not. It is funded by debt which is backed by the government. The private bit is to keep the Company off the National Balance Sheet so the Scots bloke in number 11 can keep smiling.

4) It will be immensely difficult for French crews to work direct from the tunnel direct to Manchester or the north; unless they are on very fast trains. Working hours agreements limits the amount of hours and driving time within a turn. HOWEVER (and this is semantic I know) there is nothing to stop a French company using French drivers under open access running trains from the tunnel to Manchester. Only they would have to be passed in British Rules and you would probabley require at least two/ three sets per trip.

5) Somebody in the French (and EU) parliament moaned that calling Waterloo...Waterloo was anti european and tried to campaign to get the name changed. However one of the French stations is Austerlitz after one of Boneys battles. They can change that one first......!

And if anybody states - "leave it entirely to the market" - errr.....no. That policy will not work in whatever sector you work in,

[owlsroost]

My understanding is that current EU rules basically mandate the separation of rail infrastructure ownership/management from train operations - this is seen as an essential precursor to enable open-access to function properly. Also (I assume) the infrastructure owner is required to treat all operators fairly in respect of access rights, pricing etc.

As far as I'm aware, all the infrastructure organisations in the EU are still state-owned, as are most of the train operations i.e. in most countries they've just taken the existing integrated state-owned railway and split it in two. The difference is that the 'state' train operators aren't supposed to have a legal monopoly any more within their own countries. i.e. provided you meet the technical/safety requirements and the infrastructure organisation can accomodate your trains, you have the right to operate in that country.

The countries I mentioned are just the ones that I think have at least some 'open access' private-sector freight train operations (info from reading magazines etc) - it's not an exhaustive list.

Switzerland is not an EU member, but it's following the same principles and in fact SBB and BLS are significant 'open access' freight operators into other countries these days.

Tony

[Murphy Siding]

Tony: I don't think any of us took any of your comments as being anti-anything. What I do find quite interesting is learning a little about the "railroad culture" of other places. I understand that Britain is an open access system, I took it for granted that France was still a State-owned system. Is France, and are the other European countries moving to open access? Your post leads me to believe that some already are.

Thanks

[mhurley87f]

Let's not forget that when Sir Winston Churchill's State Funeral was at the planning stage (and he was very much alive at the time), he stipulated that his Funeral Train should leave from Waterloo, and not Paddington, the Terminus normally associated with services to Oxfordshire, on his last journey to Blenheim Palace.

When asked why, he was reported to have said, "Just to make De Gaulle look up at the name Waterloo." !!!

[owlsroost]

By the way, although some of my comments above might suggest I'm 'anti-French' etc - this isn't the case, it's just that there are cultural/historical differences between the UK and France that sometimes result in friction between the two countries (e.g. the on-going politcal battle in the EU over farming subsidies versus our EU budget rebate). It's certainly taking a lot longer to get open-access freight operations going in France compared to some other EU countries (e.g. Holland, Belgium, Germany, Italy, Austria etc).

(But there is a certain irony in trains from Paris arriving at London Waterloo [:)] - type 'Battle of Waterloo' into Google if you don't get it).

Tony

[owlsroost]

QUOTE: Does one have to be bilingual to be an engineer ?

To drive a Eurostar train - yes (in English and French - I don't think they have to know Flemish).

Driving for Eurostar is regarded as the pinnacle of train driving in the UK - not too surprising considering that you are in charge of a 20 car/800 tonne/16400 hp passenger train running at 186mph.

Tony

[owlsroost]

If you look at page 4 of this PDF document - http://www.ctrl.co.uk/press/contract.asp?ID=4209 - it explains the (complex) structure of the Eurostar operation. National Express Group and British Airways have significant stakes in Eurostar (or rather in InterCapital and Regional Rail Ltd which manages Eurostar (UK) Limited).

From what I remember there have been attempts (led by the UK side I believe) to turn Eurostar into a proper free-standing company - mostly to streamline the decision making process - but I think SNCF/SNCB have resisted this so far.

Tony

[TH&B]

What is the language used by train crews / engineers through the Channel Tunnel? What about on through trains from England to France or Belgium? Does one have to be bilingual to be an engineer ?

[mhurley87f]

QUOTE: Originally posted by owlsroost

Freight cars (wagons) roam freely, but because the UK system has smaller clearances (structure/loading gauge) than mainland Europe, only wagons designed for the purpose can be used for UK <-> mainland Europe traffic.

As far as I know, freight trains from the UK are hauled to Frethun yard (Calais) by Class 92 electric locos, then moved on by SNCF using French motive power. When EWS starts open access operations in France, I assume the trains would change to class 66 diesel power at Frethun and be driven by French drivers directly employed by an EWS French subsiduary company. Whether this would be a unionised operation I don't know, but I'd guess it wouldn't be to start with, and almost certainly the employment terms and conditions wouldn't be the same as SNCF.

As a bit of background, the Eurostar passenger trains are run as a joint Eurostar UK/SNCF/SNCB operation, with ownership of the train fleet divided between the three partners but with maintenance concentrated in the UK. The trains were built by a UK/French/Belgian consortium too.

Tony

Tony,
Aren't British Airways and Air France a significant minority shareholder in the Eurostar operation? I'm sure that I've read that in Captain Deltic's column or another magazine.

[owlsroost]

Freight cars (wagons) roam freely, but because the UK system has smaller clearances (structure/loading gauge) than mainland Europe, only wagons designed for the purpose can be used for UK <-> mainland Europe traffic.

As far as I know, freight trains from the UK are hauled to Frethun yard (Calais) by Class 92 electric locos, then moved on by SNCF using French motive power. When EWS starts open access operations in France, I assume the trains would change to class 66 diesel power at Frethun and be driven by French drivers directly employed by an EWS French subsiduary company. Whether this would be a unionised operation I don't know, but I'd guess it wouldn't be to start with, and almost certainly the employment terms and conditions wouldn't be the same as SNCF.

As a bit of background, the Eurostar passenger trains are run as a joint Eurostar UK/SNCF/SNCB operation, with ownership of the train fleet divided between the three partners but with maintenance concentrated in the UK. The trains were built by a UK/French/Belgian consortium too.

Tony

[Tulyar15]

I'll ask around a few people I know in the industry.