British Railway Operations

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by owlsroost

QUOTE: I don't quite understand *Beeching* though

Dr Beeching was Chairman of British Railways in the early 1960's, charged with the task of bringing the finances of the railways under control (BR was loosing money heavily, and had also wasted a lot of taxpayers money given to it for modernisation in the 1950's).

One of the things he did (and the thing he's remembered for) was to close a lot of uneconomic lines, passenger services, stations, freight yards etc. and to try and concentrate freight traffic into block trainloads and container trains i.e. get out of wagonload ('loose car' ) freight.

So in the UK, 'Beeching' = cuts in train services.

Tony

Tony: You mention that BR had wasted a lot of money given to it in the 1950's for modernization. How is that?

Thanks

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the background - I saw one of these rolling into Aberystwyth and recognised it as being one of the Network Rail units but didn't know much more than that (the trials were reported in the local press but you know how terrible their reporting of anything rail-related is!). I've read a fair bit about the use of the parcels DMU to haul tail loads - apparently they were used on the Cambrian Coast line to haul materials for the Barmouth bridge repairs (the bridge was weakened by marine beetle infestations and was declared "off-limits" to locos) as well as to recover stock left behind on the affected section.

www.railcar.co.uk has plenty of information on the parcels DMUs which might be of interest - they were class 128 under BR numbering. Why none survived into preservation is a bit of a mystery to me though.

[Tulyar15]

From a technical view point the timber trials with the "Cargo Sprinter" earlier this year were successful. It ran a 100 journey from Aberystwyth to Wrexham for a trial period of 4 weeks with about six flat cars loaded with timber sanwiched between the two powered cars (which were also loaded with timber). On its first run a class 37 loco was coupled on just in case it got in to difficulty on the seven mile climb up to Talerdigg Summit at 1 in 49 (2.04%) gradient but it coped fine! I think EWS is trying to get external funding to help meet the costs of buying a couple of these vehicles so they can use them all year round.

One of the potential advantages of these vehicles is that as they employ the same type of engines as the passenger DMUs they can run at the same speeds as them and even couple in multiple with them.

Up until the 1980's British Rail had some parcels DMU's which could also pull a few extra cars and the Southern region had a 3rd rail electric version. On some rural branch lines they used to use these parcels DMU's to pull a few ballast wagons!

For some picturs of some of these workings in Wales, I recommend these sites:-


www.2d53.co.uk/cambriancoast/menu.htm

http://www.penmorfa.com/Archive/eight.htm

[M636C]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by Railroading_Brit

The reason for the heavy truck use has more to do with the fact that many places don't have freight services - large chunks of rural Britain haven't seen freight trains for many years. Many smaller lines were also closed during the Beeching cuts of the '60s - the government of the time was of the opinion that road transport was the better option for both freight and passenger. They rather failed to spot the problem here in that we're now being told to use our cars less but often have little real alternative, especially in the areas that were hit hardest by Beeching. Interestingly we are seeing a few new efforts to haul by rail - in my part of the world there was a recent trial of Network Rail's swapbody diesel railcars hauling timber. Hopefully it'll catch on as those timber trucks are a real pain on twisting roads!

Thanks for the responce! I don't quite understand *Beeching* though. What's a swapbody diesel railcar? I like the sound of it- I sell lumber(timber) for a living.[8D]

The "swapbody diesel railcar" is a German vehicle, called a "Cargo Sprinter" in Germany. It is basically a 63' flat container wagon fitted with a driving cab and two diesel engines under the floor driving the truck axles through hydraulic transmissions. It is intended to provide economical distribution of containers within a large urban area.

Network Rail in the UK purchased two of these cars to carry various loads related to track maintenance and inspection. Because it is a standard vehicle, the deck is too high for it to carry standard containers in the UK where the clearances are too small compared to Germany. It can carry palletised loads, such as timber, as long as they fit the limited British profile. Hence the term "swapbody" used in Europe for intermodal equipment of less than container size.

We have one set in container service in Australia, where the power cars can carry two 20' boxes and they are normally used with other container wagons fitted with multiple unit cables. It hasn't found a real niche just yet, but the owners are still trying.

M636C

[owlsroost]

QUOTE: I don't quite understand *Beeching* though

Dr Beeching was Chairman of British Railways in the early 1960's, charged with the task of bringing the finances of the railways under control (BR was loosing money heavily, and had also wasted a lot of taxpayers money given to it for modernisation in the 1950's).

One of the things he did (and the thing he's remembered for) was to close a lot of uneconomic lines, passenger services, stations, freight yards etc. and to try and concentrate freight traffic into block trainloads and container trains i.e. get out of wagonload ('loose car' ) freight.

So in the UK, 'Beeching' = cuts in train services.

Tony

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

What is considered a long haul for freight in Britain? Here, the railroads frown on *short* hauls of under 500 miles.

I think the longest (in distance) regular freight working in Britain is a china clay train that runs from Cornwall to Scotland, a distance of about 600 miles.

However a container train that runs from Manchester to near Naples in southern Italy does over double that distance, though two-thirs of its journey is not on British soil. I believe this is the longest distance run by an regular sheduled freight train thru the Chunnel. Soon after the chunnel opened in 1994 a special train was run from a US Army base in Britain to one of the former Soviet republics to convey a field hospital as part of the relief operation follwing an earthquake. I hope the country concerned can repay the favour in the light of Hurricane Katrina.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Railroading_Brit

The reason for the heavy truck use has more to do with the fact that many places don't have freight services - large chunks of rural Britain haven't seen freight trains for many years. Many smaller lines were also closed during the Beeching cuts of the '60s - the government of the time was of the opinion that road transport was the better option for both freight and passenger. They rather failed to spot the problem here in that we're now being told to use our cars less but often have little real alternative, especially in the areas that were hit hardest by Beeching. Interestingly we are seeing a few new efforts to haul by rail - in my part of the world there was a recent trial of Network Rail's swapbody diesel railcars hauling timber. Hopefully it'll catch on as those timber trucks are a real pain on twisting roads!

Thanks for the responce! I don't quite understand *Beeching* though. What's a swapbody diesel railcar? I like the sound of it- I sell lumber(timber) for a living.[8D]

[Anonymous]

The reason for the heavy truck use has more to do with the fact that many places don't have freight services - large chunks of rural Britain haven't seen freight trains for many years. Many smaller lines were also closed during the Beeching cuts of the '60s - the government of the time was of the opinion that road transport was the better option for both freight and passenger. They rather failed to spot the problem here in that we're now being told to use our cars less but often have little real alternative, especially in the areas that were hit hardest by Beeching. Interestingly we are seeing a few new efforts to haul by rail - in my part of the world there was a recent trial of Network Rail's swapbody diesel railcars hauling timber. Hopefully it'll catch on as those timber trucks are a real pain on twisting roads!

[Murphy Siding]

I guess that explains why I read that a lot of freight (the majority?) in Britain moves by truck?

Thanks

[owlsroost]

In the UK, 500 miles would be a long haul - it's less distance than that from the port at Southampton or the Channel Tunnel to Glasgow, and they're about the longest reasonably busy freight routes I can think of.

The longest reasonably direct journey you could make by rail in the UK (e.g. Penzance to Wick) is probably about 800 miles - and west of Taunton/north of Glagow there isn't a lot of railfreight.

Tony

(and I agree with Tulyar15 about the Nuneaton - Birmingham electrification - or rather the lack of it - the main Freightliner terminal in Birmingham is on the same line....if this was combined with electrication of the Water Orton -> Walsall line it would also create a sensible diversionary route for Nuneaton -> Stafford which didn't involve using the busy Coventry - Birmingham line)

[Murphy Siding]

What is considered a long haul for freight in Britain? Here, the railroads frown on *short* hauls of under 500 miles.

[Tulyar15]

Somtimes, yes. These days there's more of a tendency to run thru with diesels all the way on electrified lines, but that's always happened to a certain extent.

In the Midlands they've opened a container terminal at Hams Hall (on the site of an old electric generating station) to handle continental traffic. But since it's on the unelectrified Nuneaton - Birmingham line, a class 92 would have to be replaced at Nuneaton for the last few miles. I;m surprised EWS and Virgin haven't thought about getting together to get this line electrified as it is often used for diversions which result in both TOC's having to use diesels to drag electrics when this happens.

[Murphy Siding]

In a (reletively) long distance, a freight train may have several different engines?

[Anonymous]

Atlases Out (Roughly)

I would say (and please somebody correct me) that 2k out of a 10K systme might be wired up in some form or another.

25KV Overheads on the East and West Coast Main Line; 15m of the Great Western, the Great Eastern Main Lines (Kings Lynn,. Norwich and some branches in East Anglia); the Midland Main Line as far as Bedford and the CTRL; 660V DC 3rd in the South East and South Central Bits of England - i.e. London - Dover; Brighton, Portsmouth, Southampton and Weymouth.

So for those bits where freight traffic runs off the juice then diesels are used. Plus there is a charge for the current in the Track Access (operators maybe able to buy juice direct from wholesalers shortly - what fun!).

[Murphy Siding]

It sounds like a lot of the system is set up for electric . Is it common to have diesel locos running the same line?

Thanks

[Tulyar15]

Electric locos are used on some freights. The Channel Tunnel class 92's can now run through from northern France to Glasgow in Scotland. EWS, Freightline and GB Railfreight use various classes of electric locos on freight.

[Murphy Siding]

Are the electric locos used solely for passenger service, or are some used for freight also?

Thanks

[Tulyar15]

Cotswold Rail (a ROSCO turned open access operator) have acquired some Class 87 and 86 electric locos and some passengers cars. They've also signed a deal to lease some of the "spare" HSTs.

[Hugh Jampton]

FGW didn't buy any HST's,, In the UK the train operators do not own the trains they run,, they come from one of the 3 leasing companies,, which are owned by banks.
When Virgin introduced the Voyagers and Pendelinos the trains they displaced were returned to their respective owners. The HST's were leased to by the owner to FGW, who got the bulk of them, and GNER & Midland Mainlilne also had some.
The electric stock is mostly in storage although some of it went to one, who run services into East Anglia.

[Tulyar15]

Virgin have disposed of the old electric locos, though some have been bought by charter train operators along with the redundant passenger cars that they hauled.

The EMU's that are used for mail are not 50 years old. They were built in the early 1990's and are basically the same design as the dual voltage class 319 units used on the cross London "Thameslink" line, but they have conventional buffers so that they can be hauled on unelectrified lines by a diesel loco.

Virgin are hiring back some HST's for summer Saturday extra trains. GW bought up all Virgin's surplus HST and keep them as a strategic reserve. They are also hiring them out to charter train operators.

[martin.knoepfel]

Virgin Rail changed its passenger operations recently. Now, they run only with DMU's oder EMU'S. I don't know, what happened to the electric locomotives.

GB Rrailfreight is now running mail-trains with EMU's that have been built 50 years ago for this purpose. I guess, they have no passenger-places. The Dutch had mail-motor-cars, too, but I don't know, whether they are still in service.

[Isambard]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cogload

sic transit gloria mundi.

Is that some strange form of Kerneweck?

http://www.railroadforums.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=28723&cat=500&page=1

[:)]

[Anonymous]

sic transit gloria mundi.

[Murphy Siding]

I've ridden on 4 different tourist lines. One was a for profit line in a tourist area. The others were mostly run by volunteers.

[Simon Reed]

The S1 - 804 - is being restored in Peterborough, Cambridgeshire adjacent to the Nene Valley Railway which is an enthusiast run operation - what you'd call a Tourist Railroad.

The initial intention would be that 804 join their roster of preserved steam and diesel locomotives and operate on the line as and when required.

As you might have gathered from the link to Preserved Diesels that I posted on this thread yesterday there's a very healthy market in the UK to travel behind and savour the sounds of older diesels. We'd like a share of that.

This gives rise to a question for you. Recent articles that I've read give me the impression that US Tourist Lines rely on paid staff to operate them. If that is the case - and perhaps someone could comment - it's a VERY far cry from our many enthusiast lines which are generally operated and maintained on an entirely voluntary and non profit making basis.

804 will be a labour of love forever.

[Anonymous]

Nuclear Flask traffic has priority over passenger trains in various scenarios - did at Traws; does to Dungeness etc. etc. etc.

[Murphy Siding]

Simon Reed: What is the intended use for the S-1 after restoration?

[Simon Reed]

It strikes me (after several drinks, I might add, as it's Friday night here in Blighty) that I ought to expand somewhat on the above.

UK and US Rail Preservation are very different. Here the primary force is volunteer labour and funding. The objective tends to be returning your "subject" to traffic as soon as you can.

Possibly a very informative site for Murphy Siding and others would be www.preserved-diesels.co.uk . Follow the thread to "Engines" and you'll have some idea of what we eccentric Limeys do in our spare time!

[Simon Reed]

Well it's not going to be a miracle fix, that's for sure.

She is basically complete and in relatively good physical condition, although having been standing in the open for 20 years there's some corrosion. This is'nt structural, however, and the frames and superstructure are solid and straight.

Mechanically she appears to be in remarkably good order and, with a little tinkering, we expect that the power unit should be capable of manual turning. We have a quantity of spare parts although at some stage these have been plundered to an extent so all need cataloging and sorting.

We also have two spare trucks. This is fortunate because the tyres on the trucks she currently stands on are very badly worn. The condition of the traction motors is, at present, an unknown.

That's an overview, obviously. To answer your question, yes we are looking at an extensive, and expensive restoration but it's not beyond our technical expertise and ability. Nor, spread over a long term, should it be beyond our financial means although we'd love further members.

The general concensus at present is that on the basis of what we know, and what resources we have, a ten year restoration should be easily achievable. You will note that I describe this as a restoration, not a preservation. We're not going for a return to Schenectady 1949 condition. If a component is missing or terminally failed and a contemporary UK alternative is available it'll be made to fit.

It's an exciting project with an almost unique product. The best I can say is "watch this space" and the best way you could do that is by joining the group!

[Murphy Siding]

Simon Reed: What kind of condition is the ALCO S 1 in? Are we talking lots of restoration work?