British Railway Operations

[Anonymous]

Everything is timetabled and pathed. Dead simple.

In theory......

[owlsroost]

QUOTE: Is most freight bulk commodities, how about single cars? Are there a lot of British boxcars around?

It's mostly 'block' trains carrying a single type of freight e.g. coal, crushed rock (for the construction and steel industries), iron ore, oil products, containers etc.

There is some 'loose car' freight (particularly international) but the short distances - e.g. channel tunnel to Glasgow is less than 500 miles - and high switching costs mean it's difficult to make money at this. British Rail came close to abandoning this type of traffic completely 20 years or so ago.

And no, there aren't that many boxcars around (we would call them 'vans') - the sort of general freight they carry has mostly migrated to highway trucks or into containers/swap bodies carried on container flats (clearances in the UK and the rest of Europe aren't generally large enough for TOFC trains like you have in the US).

Tony

[Murphy Siding]

Tulyar15, cogload and owlsroost: Thank You for the info. I find this very interesting, but have a few questions ( as always). What's the difference between freight and parcels? ( This might be just a language thing. I have trouble translating sometimes owing to the fact that we speak english, and you guys speak the other english)[:)]. Does the Inter City Passenger business sector make a profit as expected?as it appears that inter city rail travel is very popular.

Thanks

[Anonymous]

Are there any bi-modal operations in the U.K. or through to the continent?

[martin.knoepfel]

I'd like to add two questions. Do the British Railways still run with vacuum-brakes? In older days, freight- and passenger-cars for the continent had to have double braking-equipment (vaccum and Westinghouse). There are some container-carrying cars with lowered center specially built for trains to Britain.

There has been a project - some years ago - to widen clearances on some little traveled branches to build a freight line with continental clearences from the Channel Tunnel to the Midlands? Did this ever happen?

[Anonymous]

All Briti***rains currently use either Westinghouse air brakes or use electro-pneumatic brakes such as those used subways, with Westinghouse used on all freight trains. There was talk about widening clearances from the Channel Tunnel to the Midlands, this did not happen except for the Channel Tunnel Rail Link which is designed to in to host freight trains, but currently does not, is build to continental clearances. This was only done because it was a requirement to receive European Union Funds for the project.

[owlsroost]

QUOTE: Are there any bi-modal operations in the U.K. or through to the continent?

If you mean RoadRailer/TrailerTrain type equipment - there have been various trials over years, but I don't think anything is running at the moment in the UK.

QUOTE: What's the difference between freight and parcels?

Parcel = small package i.e. the sort of stuff that UPS and FedEx handle (in fact 'UPS' is an abbreviation for 'United Parcel Service'). In UK railway terms this implies freight carried in passenger style equipment at high speeds (75 - 100mph).

Tony

[Murphy Siding]

owlsroost: Thanks for the clarification. Could I equate Parcel as similar to RPO of years gone by. What about loose car railroading? Can i order a carload of 2x4's from Germany for delivery to a siding near my British lumber yard?

Thanks

[owlsroost]

By the time of privatisation, 'parcels' traffic had shrunk down Royal Mail postal business only. Even this disappeared a year or so ago, but a small amount of it returned to rail recently and also EWS runs some Birmingham - Scotland trains for other parcel carriers.

QUOTE: Can i order a carload of 2x4's from Germany for delivery to a siding near my British lumber yard?

As I don't work in the business I don't know the answer - but your first problem would be finding a Briti***imber merchant with a rail siding nearby.......

Tony

[Hugh Jampton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Can i order a carload of 2x4's from Germany for delivery to a siding near my British lumber yard?

Thanks

Yes you can,, however your carload of timber will be delivered by truck.

[Murphy Siding]

I never thought of myself as a timber merchant. That sounds quite regal! ( I sell lumber for a living.) So you mean to tell me that with all the rail lines, there aren't that many dedicated or industrial sidings? Would the shipment go to a train yard, and then be transloaded to trucks for delivery to a timber merchant?

Thanks

[Hugh Jampton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

I never thought of myself as a timber merchant. That sounds quite regal! ( I sell lumber for a living.) So you mean to tell me that with all the rail lines, there aren't that many dedicated or industrial sidings? Would the shipment go to a train yard, and then be transloaded to trucks for delivery to a timber merchant?

Thanks

Not any more,, 2 things happened, a lot of the sidings were ripped up, and a lot of businesses re-located to premesis near the motorways.
Your carload of timber would probably never even see a train, it would come direct from the supplier on a truck. Carload freight is virtually non-existant, however, if you wanted a trainload of 4x2s,, well,, we could easily arrange that.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by 440cuin

What is the language used by train crews / engineers through the Channel Tunnel? What about on through trains from England to France or Belgium? Does one have to be bilingual to be an engineer ?

french & yes

[TH&B]

Easy ???! It might not be so easy to unload a train load of lumber if a lumber yard doesn't have a very big or many sidings. Not too easy either if the train has to be unloaded at some railyard with about 50 round trips by truck or more.

How big is a train load like this in England ? I suppose it can vary.

[Murphy Siding]

440cuin : I think from other comments made earlier that their freight trains are much smaller than what you and I see rolling by.

[Hugh Jampton]

yes they are shorter, 750 metres maximum (2460' 7.5") but most are a lot shorter than this.

[Anonymous]

I have noticed that many commodities that normally move by bulk transportation methods here in NA (logs, lumber, liquids, etc) move by containerization in Europe. I guess if Murphy wants to ship a load of lumber to the U.K. he should load it on one of those flatbed containers with the stanchions and ship it intermodal.

[Murphy Siding]

I've seen an entire ship load (< that phrase sounds almost naughty![}:)) of 2x4 studs from Germany on the dock at Duluth. These are the same brand we've had in our yard from time to time. They are wrapped, but not containerised. I'm just trying to get a clearer picture of freight operations in Britain.
Thanks

[owlsroost]

There is some movement of logs to processing plants by train in the UK - mainly from areas of Scotland that don't have very good highway access to the forest areas. This tends to be either full (but short) trainloads or blocks of wagons attached to other services.

I doubt there is much movement of 'finished' wood products by rail in the UK - the short distances and large number of destinations would make this a natural traffic for trucks.

As an aside, I was on vacation near Jenbach in Austria recently which is the junction for the http://www.zillertalbahn.at/ narrow gauge line to Mayrhofen. They were loading standard gauge wagons full of logs onto narrow gauge transporter wagons - the whole wagon, not just the load - to take them 10-20 miles up the line to a large sawmill - while it was very interesting to watch, I did wonder about the economics of this......

(Incidentally, as well as year-round diesel passenger and freight services, the Zillertalbahn runs some vintage steam trains in the summer - good fun standing on the open platform of the front passenger car looking over the coal bunker in to the cab - http://www.zillertalbahn.at/Englisch/f_gal_e/aaa4_e.html )

Tony

[Anonymous]

Vacuum brakes have long since disappeared. Honest.

Because of the short distances involved it is very difficult to make money from wagonload traffic in the UK; especially with additional transhipment costs fropm loading your wagons at either end.

What must be remembered is that land is very expensive here and the Victorians built the railways on the cheap; this means that clearances are very very tight so the enormo trains which are built up in the North American continent wouldn't fit the bill here. As an aside it was the railways which basically created the Law of Compulsory Purchase - knock em dead at parties with that one!

However fule is rapidly appraoching the £1/litre - roughly £5/ uk gallon so dont write it off yet.

[Murphy Siding]

Owlsroost: Neat links! Can you ride the train from your home to there?


Thanks

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Tulyar15, cogload and owlsroost: Thank You for the info. I find this very interesting, but have a few questions ( as always). Does the Inter City Passenger business sector make a profit as expected?as it appears that inter city rail travel is very popular.

Thanks

Murphy Siding - under BR the Inter City business did make a profit (and the sleeper services were part of Inter City!). When privitsation happened the Inter City TOC's were expected to pay a premium (ie pay money to the UK Treasury for operating these services, the idea being that it would go towards susbsiding the regional and commuter services). Out of the Inter City TOC's GNER and Midland Main Line still pay a premium but Great Western and Anglia do not. Virgin Cross Country and West Coast have renegotiated their franchise deals that so that they no longer pay premiums as the cost overruns on the West Coast Main Line has wrecked their business plans.

[owlsroost]

QUOTE: Can you ride the train from your home to there?

Yes, I could - e.g. do a quick search on the German railways timetable system http://reiseauskunft.bahn.de/bin/query.exe/en? (put London to Jenbach in) - but we actually flew from our local airport to Salzburg on a low cost airline then took the train from there to Jenbach (cheaper and faster overall).

Tony

[Murphy Siding]

Tulyar15: Did the financial picture on the Inter City business change because the costs went up, or the revenues went down?

Owlsroost: Interesting as always.


Thanks

[Tulyar15]

Murphy Siding - the financial picture on Inter City changed because the costs went up with privitisation. The whole network now needs 4 times the subsidy BR used to manage on.

[Murphy Siding]

Does this mean that, in the long run, the British rail system may be headed back to nationalization? Or, is the freight industry strong enough to stand on it's own. How about fuel prices in Britain? How will that affect the future of British Rail operations?



Thanks

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Does this mean that, in the long run, the British rail system may be headed back to nationalization? Or, is the freight industry strong enough to stand on it's own. How about fuel prices in Britain? How will that affect the future of British Rail operations?

Thanks

I don't think that they are headed back to Nationalization but a bit of a reatreat from where they were. There are positive things happening. Nationally passenger numbers are up over 40 %. Think about that number. Freight is and will remain totally OA. What may make freight take off is if the European Union can kick down the doors to OA in France. This might also help the finances of the Channel Tunnel too. Alot more freight would go through the Chunnel if it could reasonably travel by rail further inland. Freight has fallen 15% this year compared to last year in France. In Switzerland freight is up about 9.5 % with a market share gain of 2%. The Swiss government atributes this to the beneficial
effects of OA especially since the Netherlands, Germany, Switzerland, Austria, and Italy are now OA. The French problem is the sheer strength of the Railroad Unions. For the first 15 months of 2005 Fret SNCF the freight division of the French Railway says that 13 of the weeks were disrupted by strikes. They figure that a one day strike causes problems for one week until operations are back to normal. For example France voted on the EU Constitution, the Rail Unions are opposed to the Constitution so they strike. Something like one-third of French Railfreight traffic has been lost in just the last seven or eight years.

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Does this mean that, in the long run, the British rail system may be headed back to nationalization? Or, is the freight industry strong enough to stand on it's own. How about fuel prices in Britain? How will that affect the future of British Rail operations?

I think feight can stand on its own. As for passenger rail, the latest franchises are effectively management contracts as what the franchise operator has to provide is more clearly specified. Network Rail is effectively under government control. Merseyrail Electrics, a self contained part of the network is fairly close to a vertically integrated company as the franchise operator is also responsible for track maintenance. I suspect sooner or later the Scottish Parliament will see to it that ScotRail because vertically integrated with Open Access continuing for freight operators.

[daveklepper]

Is railroading in Wales somewhat separately managed like Scotland? I know the Isle of Man is a self contained operation solely under the local government, with the electric line, the steam line, and the bus system essentially one management. What about the Isle of Rhyde?

[Hugh Jampton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper

Is railroading in Wales somewhat separately managed like Scotland? I know the Isle of Man is a self contained operation solely under the local government, with the electric line, the steam line, and the bus system essentially one management. What about the Isle of Rhyde?

Not really,, although neither is the railway in Scotland.
The UK network is divided up into 7 regions (these are akin to divisions), these are Northwest, East Anglia, Southern, Great Western, Scotland, Midland and London North East. Each of these regions does have its own autonomy in certain areas, but must tow the company line in general.

I think you mean the Isle of Wight, of which Rhyde is the main city on the island. To answer your question; no, the electric railway between Rhyde and Shanklin is part of the Southern Region, the steam railway between Wooton and Smallbrook Jct. is a preserved railway and only operates occasionally, and the busses are run by Southern Vectis. All three are seperate operations with generally un-co-ordinated timetables.