British Railway Operations

[Isambard]

I'm an infrequent visitor to this forum, however having recently visited England and travelled on the railways, this discussion thread caught my I. Thanks to all the contributors it helped clear up some of the questions I had as to who was who i.e National Rail, the TOC's ertc. Keep up the discussions!

My family and I were impressed with the level and quality of service on the lines we travelled on - Southwest, Wessex and First Great Western. While we didn't get to try Virgin and Southern, their trains certainly looked good.

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper

Is railroading in Wales somewhat separately managed like Scotland? I know the Isle of Man is a self contained operation solely under the local government, with the electric line, the steam line, and the bus system essentially one management. What about the Isle of Rhyde?

Hugh Jampton is correct in describing the network rail regions. Because Scot Rail is generally thought of as one of the better TOC's, the politicians in Wales decided they wanted one TOC for Wales. Part the reason for ScotRail's success is attributed to the fact that it only has to deal with one Network Rail zone so when the Wales and Borders TOC was set up they transferred most of lines in Wales to the Great Western zone of NR. But just as Anglo-Services in Scotland are operated by Virgin and GNER so London-Wales services are operated by Great Western and Virgin.

[mhurley87f]

QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper

Is railroading in Wales somewhat separately managed like Scotland? I know the Isle of Man is a self contained operation solely under the local government, with the electric line, the steam line, and the bus system essentially one management. What about the Isle of Rhyde?

As others have said, no it isn't, but since the budget for supporting rail services within Wales is to be devolved to the Welsh Assembly Government, there is an expectation that services can now be tailored more closely to the needs of travellers than the Rail Regulator's perception of what we need.

[Murphy Siding]

Isambard: Neat name for a screen name-especially on this thread !
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[Isambard]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Isambard: Neat name for a screen name-especially on this thread !
[^]

I've been using Isambard as my forum name for several years, having learned about Brunel. You can imagine my reaction when I came across that railway carriage in the background of my photo URL!
[:)]

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Isambard

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Isambard: Neat name for a screen name-especially on this thread !
[^]

I've been using Isambard as my forum name for several years, having learned about Brunel. You can imagine my reaction when I came across that railway carriage in the background of my photo URL!
[:)]

That railway carriage is a master of understatement, I would consider Isambard Kingdom Brunel to be one of the world's greatest engineers. The only problem was that Brunel's schemes tended to be expensive and his ideas tended to run ahead of the era's technology, a prime example being the liner "Great Eastern", which ate up several fortunes.

[Anonymous]

and he died a broken man......

However the RAB stands as his testament.

Freight is not entirely "open" either. DRS: Prop: HMG via BNFL.

[Murphy Siding]

cogload: Can you explain the last sentence of your post?



Thanks

[owlsroost]

DRS (Direct Rail Services) is a subsidiary of BNFL (British Nuclear Fuels Limited) which is the state-owned nuclear fuel reprocessing company (HMG = Her Majesty's Government).

DRS started out just hauling nuclear flask/waste trains for BNFL, but has since branched out into general freight haulage for other customers.

Tony

[Hugh Jampton]

I don't necessarily agree with that. DRS have to obtain their paths the same way as everybody else,, there's no favoritism.

[daveklepper]

Appreciated the thorough answers. Yes, of course I meant the Isle of Wright. I did ride all the lines then operating there in 1962. Glad to know that the Welsh situation is similar to Scotland's, and I certianly enjoyed time spent in both areas.

[owlsroost]

P.S. the name of the town on the Isle of Wight is spelt 'Ryde'.

And although it's part of the national rail system, given that it runs 1938 vintage ex-London Underground trains the Ryde-Shanklin line almost qualifies as a tourist/preserved railway anyway [:)] - http://www.squarewheels.org.uk/rly/stock/IsleOfWight.html

Tony

[Anonymous]

indeed they ahve to obtain their paths like everybody else. However there is a certain amount of surety in there isn't there. Plus the "bomb" traffic has always had a special place......

[Murphy Siding]

cogload: What is "bomb" traffic?

Thanks

[Murphy Siding]

Tulyar15: I got your E-mail about sending photos of some Briti***rains. Any chance you could post them on the forum for all to see?

Thanks

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

cogload: What is "bomb" traffic?

Thanks

DRS ship nuclear bombs for the Royal Navy from Plymouth to Sellafield.

[Hugh Jampton]

errr,, the "bomb" traffic is a railway nickname for the nuclear flask traffic from the various powere stations to the reprocessing plant.. The only thing special about these trains is that they're not listed in the public timetables,, but they run at the same times so they're easy to track down.

[Simon Reed]

That's a little "reactionary", Tulyar15.

What is transported, on behalf of British Nuclear Fuels Limited and the Ministry of Defence, are spent uranium rods from power station or submarine reactors for reprocessing and safe disposal at the Sellafield plant in Cumbria (North West England).

Also transported to Sellafield from the docks at Barrow are spent rods from other countries, most notably Japan, which the UK Government has contracted to dispose of.

In very simplified terms the necessity for constitutional changes so that HM Gov. could tender for exceptionally lucrative overseas contracts was the reason for the restructuring of BNFL, which brought about the formation of DRS in the first place.

In practice, largely due to the foresight of the late Max Joule, DRS operates at arms length from BNFL.

This is a good thread from which I'm learning things and I've been a UK enthusiast for the last 35 years!

I'm publicity officer of the recently formed UK Alco Group, which aims to restore one of the 3 remaining Alco S1's exported to the UK to running order, so any Anglo-American railfan dialogue is good news to me.

A little more about the group is available on www.ukalcogroup.co.uk although we had a committee meeting on Saturday and aim to formally launch the group very soon.

E-mail me if you'd like to know more.

[Murphy Siding]

Simon Reed: What kind of condition is the ALCO S 1 in? Are we talking lots of restoration work?

[Simon Reed]

Well it's not going to be a miracle fix, that's for sure.

She is basically complete and in relatively good physical condition, although having been standing in the open for 20 years there's some corrosion. This is'nt structural, however, and the frames and superstructure are solid and straight.

Mechanically she appears to be in remarkably good order and, with a little tinkering, we expect that the power unit should be capable of manual turning. We have a quantity of spare parts although at some stage these have been plundered to an extent so all need cataloging and sorting.

We also have two spare trucks. This is fortunate because the tyres on the trucks she currently stands on are very badly worn. The condition of the traction motors is, at present, an unknown.

That's an overview, obviously. To answer your question, yes we are looking at an extensive, and expensive restoration but it's not beyond our technical expertise and ability. Nor, spread over a long term, should it be beyond our financial means although we'd love further members.

The general concensus at present is that on the basis of what we know, and what resources we have, a ten year restoration should be easily achievable. You will note that I describe this as a restoration, not a preservation. We're not going for a return to Schenectady 1949 condition. If a component is missing or terminally failed and a contemporary UK alternative is available it'll be made to fit.

It's an exciting project with an almost unique product. The best I can say is "watch this space" and the best way you could do that is by joining the group!

[Simon Reed]

It strikes me (after several drinks, I might add, as it's Friday night here in Blighty) that I ought to expand somewhat on the above.

UK and US Rail Preservation are very different. Here the primary force is volunteer labour and funding. The objective tends to be returning your "subject" to traffic as soon as you can.

Possibly a very informative site for Murphy Siding and others would be www.preserved-diesels.co.uk . Follow the thread to "Engines" and you'll have some idea of what we eccentric Limeys do in our spare time!

[Murphy Siding]

Simon Reed: What is the intended use for the S-1 after restoration?

[Anonymous]

Nuclear Flask traffic has priority over passenger trains in various scenarios - did at Traws; does to Dungeness etc. etc. etc.

[Simon Reed]

The S1 - 804 - is being restored in Peterborough, Cambridgeshire adjacent to the Nene Valley Railway which is an enthusiast run operation - what you'd call a Tourist Railroad.

The initial intention would be that 804 join their roster of preserved steam and diesel locomotives and operate on the line as and when required.

As you might have gathered from the link to Preserved Diesels that I posted on this thread yesterday there's a very healthy market in the UK to travel behind and savour the sounds of older diesels. We'd like a share of that.

This gives rise to a question for you. Recent articles that I've read give me the impression that US Tourist Lines rely on paid staff to operate them. If that is the case - and perhaps someone could comment - it's a VERY far cry from our many enthusiast lines which are generally operated and maintained on an entirely voluntary and non profit making basis.

804 will be a labour of love forever.

[Murphy Siding]

I've ridden on 4 different tourist lines. One was a for profit line in a tourist area. The others were mostly run by volunteers.

[Anonymous]

sic transit gloria mundi.

[Isambard]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cogload

sic transit gloria mundi.

Is that some strange form of Kerneweck?

http://www.railroadforums.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=28723&cat=500&page=1

[:)]

[martin.knoepfel]

Virgin Rail changed its passenger operations recently. Now, they run only with DMU's oder EMU'S. I don't know, what happened to the electric locomotives.

GB Rrailfreight is now running mail-trains with EMU's that have been built 50 years ago for this purpose. I guess, they have no passenger-places. The Dutch had mail-motor-cars, too, but I don't know, whether they are still in service.

[Tulyar15]

Virgin have disposed of the old electric locos, though some have been bought by charter train operators along with the redundant passenger cars that they hauled.

The EMU's that are used for mail are not 50 years old. They were built in the early 1990's and are basically the same design as the dual voltage class 319 units used on the cross London "Thameslink" line, but they have conventional buffers so that they can be hauled on unelectrified lines by a diesel loco.

Virgin are hiring back some HST's for summer Saturday extra trains. GW bought up all Virgin's surplus HST and keep them as a strategic reserve. They are also hiring them out to charter train operators.

[Hugh Jampton]

FGW didn't buy any HST's,, In the UK the train operators do not own the trains they run,, they come from one of the 3 leasing companies,, which are owned by banks.
When Virgin introduced the Voyagers and Pendelinos the trains they displaced were returned to their respective owners. The HST's were leased to by the owner to FGW, who got the bulk of them, and GNER & Midland Mainlilne also had some.
The electric stock is mostly in storage although some of it went to one, who run services into East Anglia.