British Railway Operations

[Murphy Siding]

Are British, and other European open access rail systems neccesarily all non-union? or does it vary by country?

Thanks

[Tulyar15]

I'm not sure. GB Railways, who are one of the open access operators in Britain are now part of FirstGroup (who hold the GW, Trans Pennine and Scot Rail franchises) so they probably recognise unions. Not sure what DRS do, but Freightliner being ex-BR also probably have unions.

Owlsroot - all Eurostar crews have to be tri-lingual. The rule is that conversations with signallers must be in the host countries language as signallers are not expected to be multi-lingual. So a Eurostar driver who has to talk to a Flemish speaking Belgian siganller must be able to do so in Flemish.

[owlsroost]

You really need someone from inside the industry to comment, but I'd guess that most of the freight operators in the UK are unionised (BR was, and EWS and Freightliner - the two big players - are privatised ex-BR operations). It isn't unionism as such that's the issue, it's the unions attitude to change - the French example above is an extreme example of this.

In the UK we went through a lot of pain in the 80's to get scale back trade union power and arrive at a sensible balance between employers, unions, and the state. Although the unions strongly opposed rail privatisation in the UK, (and still snipe at it periodically) once it happened they were pragmatic and just got on with the job of representing the interests of their members in the new private companies - as they should do.

Tony

[Anonymous]

Its all unionised to one degree or another.

[Murphy Siding]

Guys: ( At least I'm presuming you're all guys?) How big is an average Briti***rain consist, and what kind of horsepower would it require?

[owlsroost]

The most powerful diesel locos are around 3200hp (Classes 59, 60, 66 and 67) - the Class 66 are by far the majority of the fleet currently. Freight electric locos run from about 4000hp (Class 86) to 6700hp (Class 92 - built for Channel Tunnel traffic, but also used for internal services).

It's not common to have more than one loco on a freight train - passing loops, sidings, yards etc limit train lengths to around 750 metres max so the heaviest trains are generally not much over 3000 tonnes - most are under 2000 tonnes. The heaviest trains carry crushed rock from Somerset eastwards to the London area - they have done trial runs up to 5000 tonnes in the past but (I think) decided the costs of upgrading the whole route to do this regularly were too high. These are normally hauled by a single Class 59 diesel (which are more or less an SD50 under the skin).

The maximum axle load is 25.4 tonnes (but not all lines are cleared for this), top speeds are generally 45-60mph for bulk commodities, 75mph for intermodal and other fast freight. There is also some postal and parcels traffic which runs up to 100mph (using passenger style equipment) - the Class 67 diesels are cleared for 125mph.

So basically (compared to the US) it's short, fast, light freight trains - this also of course helps keep them out of the way of the passenger trains which are the majority traffic on most lines.

Tony

(1 tonne = 1000kg = approx 2200 lbs)

[Murphy Siding]

Interesting. I can't the last time I saw a train on a mainline with only one engine.

[TH&B]

Single units can sometimes pull ALOT. Canadian Pacific runs a daily train from Toronto to Montreal with only one engine (often an AC4400 (4400hp)). The train is usualy 10,000 tons (on a bad day even 10,000 tonnes) and seems to move at walking speed all the way for 300 miles but it does actualy reach 50mph on down grade and level streches. Track speed is 60mph for fast freights. Just don't get stopped in Belleville or it'll never get going again.

[Anonymous]

You have to remember the differing emphasis and priorities - as Tony states over here it is passenger trains. Freight takes second place. In one North London box; if any freight was not at a certain place by 6.45 in the morning then it would be held until 9.30AM - basically because even timed at a minimum of 60mph they were too slow......

[Anonymous]

440.....they are consistently timed at "up to 60MPH" - i.e on the main line must be a metronomic 60MPH.

[owlsroost]

QUOTE: The train is usually 10,000 tons (on a bad day even 10,000 tonnes)

I suppose if I was wearing my engineering hat (I earn my daily crust designing electronics) I should be quoting locomotive power outputs in kW or MW (and tractive effort in Newtons) but tradition dies hard on the railways [:)] - and of course the trains run on 1435mm gauge track on this side of the pond [;)]

Tony

[Murphy Siding]

Yeah, and I suppose they drive on the wrong side of the (rail)road too? I know an inch equals 2.54 mm. It takes me a little longer to convert some of those other things![:o)]

[owlsroost]

Nah - we run trains on the correct (left) side of the 'road' - we did it first! [:)][;)]

Some things have resisted the march of metrication though - the pubs still serve beer by the pint.....

Tony

[TH&B]

We say right and wrong, would you say left and wrong? Well I always drive in the center of the road that way it realy doesn't matter what country I'm in.

Just kidding.

The French (SNCF) and the Swedish (SJ) run their trains on the left, their cars run on the right. In the USA the C&NW ran on the left track.

In Briton they used to measure distances along the tracks in chains, stopping distances and stuff. Do Briti***rains still use mph for train speed?

[Murphy Siding]

I'm going to guess centimeters per hour-wouldn't those numbers look impressive?[:)]

[owlsroost]

QUOTE: In Briton they used to measure distances along the tracks in chains, stopping distances and stuff. Do Briti***rains still use mph for train speed?

Yes, speeds (on roads as well as railways) are still measured in mph. Road and rail distances are also measured in miles, but since the construction industry switched to metric measurements years ago, I suspect we might see a gradual changeover to km etc on the railway (but that's just a personal opinion). It's already happened with rolling stock related measurements (weight, length, fluid capacities etc).

Road vehicle speedometers in the UK have been marked in km/h as well as mph for many years (for driving elsewhere in Europe), so changing generally to using km rather than miles would be more of a cultural issue than a practical one.

In general conversation, people normally still talk about engine power outputs in horsepower, and car fuel consumption in miles per gallon - even though we've been buying fuel by the litre for some time now.

Tony

P.S. 1 chain = 22 yards, 10 chains = 1 furlong (still important in the horse racing world), 8 furlongs = 1 mile.

[Murphy Siding]

Tony: Thanks for the review on chainsand furlongs. Would this also be important to an eastern carrier with stallions on their engines?

[owlsroost]

Not sure furlongs are relevant to iron horses, so probably not....[;)][:)]

Actually (as far as I know) UK railways have traditionally measured distances in just miles, chains and yards - not furlongs - so mentioning furlongs was a bit of an aberation anyway!

Tony

[Anonymous]

The brand new TGV spec Channel Tunnel Rail Link uses the French TGV cab signalling system (TVM 430) which, by the way, displays the safe speed for the next block in kilometers per hour, it furthermore uses block lenths defined in meters.

[Murphy Siding]

So, most of the freight is run at night? Or,is that just in the busy metro area?

[Anonymous]

Murphy brings up a good point. As an adjunct to his question, are there any overnight passenger trains in the UK?

[Anonymous]

Yes there are three round trips overnight passenger trains in Britian. One between Paddington terminal in London to Penzance on the southwest cost of England. The other two start at Euston terminal in London travel north to Scotland with one dividing and ending in Edinburgh and Glasglow, the other divides and goes to Aberdeen, Fort William, and Inverness. There has been some talk of ending them as they are constant money loosers.

[Murphy Siding]

By overnight, are you talking sleeper cars? Or am I just dreaming?

[Anonymous]

They are a mix of sleeper and regular passenger coach.

[Murphy Siding]

Then that's where I'm heading, as soon as I win the lottery!

[Tulyar15]

Well do it while you can. Even the French railways are thinking about abandoning their sleeper services. I suspect the Spanish will do likewise when the new High Speed Line from Barcelona to the French border opens. As this line is being built to 4' 8.5" (Most Spanish railways are 5' 6" gauge) it will enable thru running Paris - Madrid.

Getting back on topic, I think when the current British sleeper cars become life expired in about 10-15 years time I doubt they'll be replaced. When the present cars were built British Rail could not justify building enough to replace all the older cars so a lot of sleeper routes were axed atr that time. Since then demand has continued to fall and other routes have been axed. Some cars were sold to the Danish Railways but those have now returned to Britain. Most have been sold off to preserved lines who use them as volunteer accomodation.

[daveklepper]

What are the amenties on these trains now? In 1962 I did ride a London - Glascow sleeper, and I remember there was a Pub car where some people spent just about the entire trip. I did use my compartment. Up to Aberdeen and Inverness, I would think there might even be dining car serving dinner and breakfast. If there is a cutback, I could see combining both these services into one overnight train, with the sleepers set out at Edinbough and others continuing on to Aberdeen and Inverness. During the summer there might even be a through car continuing past Glascow to Tindrum or other Scotish west coast vacation spots. Maybe money loosing services could be made profitable by improving the amenaties and raising the prices.

[owlsroost]

QUOTE: So, most of the freight is run at night? Or,is that just in the busy metro area?

There's probably a bit more overnight, but generally it's spread throughout the day (and some lines are closed overnight anyway, either to keep costs down or for maintenance).

Running freight trains on a predominately passenger railway just means timetabling and scheduling them in the same way as passenger trains. This doesn't mean they always actually run, but that the timetable slots exist for them - and (as Cogload points out) these train paths are timed for a specific level of train performance e.g. 75mph intermodal or 45mph coal trains. Think running frequent freight trains on the NEC or the LIRR for a US analogy.

Tony

[Murphy Siding]

Help us visualize this please. Most of us have never seen a real honest to goodness passenger train. If we live away from a metro area, we probably never see commuter trains. Are most of the passenger trains there city to city, or daily commute? How do the freight and passenger trains interact with each other? For example, do the TOC's specialize in one or the other? Is most freight bulk commodities, how about single cars? Are there a lot of British boxcars around?

Thanks

[Tulyar15]

In Britain there are both commuter passenger trains and long distance high speed trains. As a rough guide, in the 1980's British Rail re-organised its management into business sectors, namely:-

1) Freight
2) Parcels
3) Inter City Passenger
4) London and SE England Commuter services ("Network South East")
5) Other Provincial Passenger services (ie passenger services which did not come under (4) or (5) (later renamed "Regional Railways")

The first three business sectors were expected to make a profit; the others would receive subsidy as they operated socially necessary commuter services and rural branch lines. When BR was privatised the new Passenger TOC's were based on the divisions of each business sector. So for instance Inter City was split in to TOC's based on its existingh divisions which were:-

a) West Coast ( London Euston - Birmingham - Manchester - Glasgow)
b) East Coast (Lond Kings Cross - Leeds - Edinburgh - Aberdeen)
c) Great Western (London Paddington - SW England + S. Wales)
d) Midland Mainline (London St. Pancras - Derby - Sheffield)
e) Cross Country (direct services from the south coast to northern England and Scotland via Birmingham - an X shaped network covering the spine of Britain)
e) Anglia (London Liverpool St - Norwicjh)
f) Gatwick Express (London Victoria - Gatwick Airport).

BR's policy had been to favour fixed formation trains. By the 1980's most diesel inter city trains were formed by the diesel High Speed Trains with a streamlined locomotive at each end. On the electrified East and West Coast Main lines the electric locos would work in push pull mode with a streamlined baggage car with driving controls at the opposite end. Most commuter services were and are operated by diesel or electric multiple units.

Since privitisation the trend towards fixed formation trains has continued. Virgin, which got the West Coast Main Line and the Cross Country services has invested in electric fixed formation trains for the former and diesel ones for the latter.

As for freight, BR's freight and parcels operations were sold to the Wisconsin Central, except for the Freightliner container trains which were losing too much money for Ed Burkhardt to want to take on. The government was desparate to sell Freightliner so eventually it accepted a management buyout after promising to wipe out its debts. Since then Freightliner has poached traffic away from EWS (WC's British subsidiary).

As well as running freight and parcels trains, EWS also provides locomotives for excursion trains. A number of TOC's retain suitable cars for these trains, a few of which are also used on weekday commuter services. The new class 67 diesel parcels locos have Electric Train Heat facility and can run at speeds of up to 125mph.

There are quite a few places where you can see freight and passenger trains together. Only last week when I took the train from Bath to Bristol for an evening out there I saw a Freightliner class 66 diesel loco work a train throught Bath then at Bristol I saw an EWS 66 on an oil tanker train. All this on a line that has a passenger train every 15 minutes. (Two High Speed Trains to London Paddington per hour and two 'Regional' trains to Portsmouth, plus the odd commuter train between Bristol and Westbury.