British Railway Operations

[Murphy Siding]

the only WD2-10-0 I Know of was Gordon on the Longmoor Military Railway, who built it and where it is? I do not know

"Gordon" was built by the North British loco at Glasgow, as were all the WD 2-10-0's. Since the closure of the Longmoor Military Railway in 1969, "Gordon" has been based on the Severn Valley Railway.

  As an American, I find this rather amusing.  Gordon is know to most kids as the big blue express engine on Thomas the Tank Engine, on television.

[daveklepper]

Any other GWR locos with a trailing truck or just the "Great Bear"?

[John Bakeer]

Dave,

The GWR had numerous tank loco's with 2 wheel trailing trucks, but I am not aware of any standard gauge tender engines other than the odd ones inherited from companies they took over. I once had a Hornby 00 scale model of a 2-2-2 but I think this was in reality a broad gauge machine. No doubt others will add their greater knowledge to this item.  

[daveklepper]

Appreciate the thorough answer.

[Tulyar15]

the only WD2-10-0 I Know of was Gordon on the Longmoor Military Railway, who built it and where it is? I do not know

"Gordon" was built by the North British loco at Glasgow, as were all the WD 2-10-0's. Since the closure of the Longmoor Military Railway in 1969, "Gordon" has been based on the Severn Valley Railway.

  As an American, I find this rather amusing.  Gordon is know to most kids as the big blue express engine on Thomas the Tank Engine, on television.

Funnily enough, the Longmoor Military Railway livery, which Gordon carries, is blue. This similarity to "Gordon the Big Engine" in the Thomas books has not gone unnoticed! "Gordon" the 2-10-0 is in fact named after General Gordon, the 19th Century British General, who was massacred by the Sudanese. ( Another 2-10-0 on the LMR carried the name "Kitchener", after General Kitchener who avenged Gen. Gordon!).

[Tulyar15]

Dave,

The GWR had numerous tank loco's with 2 wheel trailing trucks, but I am not aware of any standard gauge tender engines other than the odd ones inherited from companies they took over. I once had a Hornby 00 scale model of a 2-2-2 but I think this was in reality a broad gauge machine. No doubt others will add their greater knowledge to this item.  

John,

I think the Tri-ang model you're referring to was the 4-2-2 "Lord of the Isles", a standard gauge class rebuilt from 2-2-2's. Why they choose this class to model is something of a mystery as none survive (the last was scrapped in 1915!). One member of the class named "Duke of Connaught" once achieved a fast run from Bristol to London which was not bettered until the 1930's.

[daveklepper]

comparing American to British:

Interesting that the nearest thing to a standard North American passenger locomotive in the height of the steam era was the Pacific, 4-6-2, and the Mikado 2-8-2 for frieght work.  Neither dual service.   But the standard in Great Britain was the ten wheeler, 4-6-0, for both, defnitely dual service.   And British Rail received new 4-6-0's, quite a few, after WWII.  But production of the 4-6-0's in the USA and Canada had just about stopped some 30 year earlier, with the good G-5 PRR suburban and local frieght engine being possibly the most modern example.

[gregrudd]

It is also interesting that other US equipment was trialed in the British Empire around this time namely in Australia the classic Baldwin 4-4-0 were puchased to compare against the Beyer Peocock built NSWGR 12 class which was also a 4-4-0 ( Which were based upon the Metropolitan condensing tank engines) While it was claimed that the British built loco's performed much better and had used better materials and of a higher standard of workmanship than the Baldwin.  The Baldwin was in some ways a much better engine than the 12 class these were.

 1. The Baldwin used a bogie leading truck as against a leading Bissel truck which only allowed for lateral movement.

2. The Baldwin used bar frames.

3. Valve gear was easier to get to.   To set the valves you had to smash the smoke box floor out.

4.  Better suspension as a result the Baldwin was no where near as hash on the track than British designs at the time. 

Here is some info on U105  

http://www.infobluemountains.net.au/rail/baldwin_u105.htm 

The Baldwins British competitor

http://tinyurl.com/ytvwfs

[Tulyar15]

In the 1900's, George Jackson Churchward, the Great Western (England)'s Chief Mechanical engineer took a lot of interest in both contemporary French and American practice. On the one hand, he imported three De Glenn compound 4-4-2's from France; at the time these were claimed to be the most efficient locos in the world. One the other hand Churchward noted the wide spread use of 2-6-0's in the US and his 4300 class moguls incorporated bar frames and one or two innovations copied from America. (I have already mentioned in an earlier post how Gresley copied a lot of features from the Pennsylvania K4 pacifics in his ground breaking A3 class).

As a result of experience with the De Glenn compounds aginst a 4 cyclinder simple expansion 4-4-2 Churchward decided to build the 'Star' class, a class of 4 cylinder simple 4-6-0' (having built some of his Saint class 2 cylinder engines as 4-6-0s and some as 4-4-2s to provide comparison between the two wheel arrangements.). The 'Stars' well and truly outshone any other British express locos at the time of their introduction in 1907.

[Isambard]

comparing American to British:

Interesting that the nearest thing to a standard North American passenger locomotive in the height of the steam era was the Pacific, 4-6-2, and the Mikado 2-8-2 for frieght work.  Neither dual service.   But the standard in Great Britain was the ten wheeler, 4-6-0, for both, defnitely dual service.   And British Rail received new 4-6-0's, quite a few, after WWII.  But production of the 4-6-0's in the USA and Canada had just about stopped some 30 year earlier, with the good G-5 PRR suburban and local frieght engine being possibly the most modern example.

The Canadian Pacific Railway made good use of its G3 Class Pacifics in freight service in addition to hauling heavy weight passenger trains (75 in dia. drivers, 45,000 lbs T.E.). While the CPR's last 4-6-0's (D10H's) were built in 1913, many D10's remained in service to the end of steam in the late 50's (63 in. dia drivers, 33-34,000 lbs T.E.).

 

[daveklepper]

Once rode a double-headed fantrip out of Toronto with two 4-6-0's.   About 1958, if memory is correct.   And the Pennsy G-5's were continued to be built in the 1920's and provided most of the non-electric service on the LIRR until well after WWII.   Also in suburban service out of Pittsburgh.   But of course the E-6's and K-4's were the stars of the passenger service.

But all four in Britain contued to build or buy 4-6-0's until nationalization, if I am correct on this.  And all four used them as dual purpose, again if I am correct.

[Simon Reed]

To a large extent yes - the GWR especially.

After Nationalisation also there were 172 Standard class 5 (73xxx) and 80 heavy Standard class 4 (75xxx) 4-6-0's built by BR, along with a large number of LMS type Black 5 (44xxx), LNER B1 (61xxx) and GWR Hall (69 and 79xx) classes to 4-6-0 designation.

Nationalisation did not mean the end of previous practice. Whilst we lament the horrendous waste of steam engines built under BR with a 30 year design life being scrapped after 6 years it's worth remembering that the last B1's were built in 1951, 3 years after nationalisation and the supposed drive to efficiencies through standardisation.

I suppose we must draw from this the conclusion that right from the outset the policies and priorities of the nationalised railway were hopelessly muddled.

As an aside consideration of the 4-6-0 type and it's usage brings to the fore another example of divergence of US and UK terminology. Such classes would be referred to North America as dual service or dual purpose, whereas we'd call them mixed traffic.     

[John Bakeer]

Tulyar,

Just heard that Hornby are to release an upgraded Caly 4-2-2 later this year, if my memory serves me right? The original shared the same chassis as the Lord of the Isles, so we may see an upgrade of that one too, hopefully without the dreadful Magnadhesion.  

[Tulyar15]

Tulyar,

Just heard that Hornby are to release an upgraded Caly 4-2-2 later this year, if my memory serves me right? The original shared the same chassis as the Lord of the Isles, so we may see an upgrade of that one too, hopefully without the dreadful Magnadhesion.  

I wonder if they'll ever get the Caley single out of Glasgow Museum again. I was fortunate enough to see the Midland "Spinner" 4-2-2 at the Liverpool and Manchester 150 cavelcade back in 1980, but I never got to see the GNR Stirling single (also a 4-2-2) when it was running on the Great Central line in the 1980's. Apparrently with its 8' driving wheels they had a job keeping its speed down to 25mph that they're allowed on a preserved line. They quickly made a rule that it had to go out with at least 4 cars in tow!

Much more recently I've seen the replica Broad Gauge "Firefly" 2-2-2 in action at Didcot Railway Museum and I may go and see it on the weekend of May 5 - 7 (May Day Holiday weekend) when there will also be some visiting locos including LNER 4-4-0 "Morayshire" and SR 4-6-0 "Lord Nelson".

[Simon Reed]

There is a photo in the March "Railfan and Railroad" of an 1851 Cumberland Valey 2-2-2. It's a very primative looking thing compared to UK and European steam of the same era.

Go forward just 50 years though and North American steam design outstripped anything on this side of the Atlantic.

[Tulyar15]

I'm not sure I'd agree that US steam eclipsed EVERYTHING this side of the pond by 1900. Certainly it eclipsed most British steam by then, but the De Glenn compounds in France were reckoned to be world beaters for efficiency. That's why Churchward on the GWR imported three. At the same time he also sent his draughstman Harry Holcroft to the US to look at contemporary practive there and the Churchward '4300' class moguls adopted some of the features Holcroft picked up from the US, notably bar frames.

[devils]

In a case of "what goes around comes around". Several freight operators in response to the Office of Rail Regulation's threats to raise access charges have submitted proposals to basically take over the freight branches from NR. So, we shall see whether this way of vertical integration sneaks in via the back door. As an aside, with the elections in Wales and Scotland coming up, will a strong Nationalist showing in either country see a change in policy. If the SNP win it seems that they want to junk the Edinburgh trams and the rail link to the airport.

[MStLfan]

Would a rail link Edinburgh - airport cut journey time significantly? And what are the plans for a tramway network? Are they controversial? I have been once to Edenburgh, like to go back someday.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

[MStLfan]

An employee of one of my customers (municipality of Schouwen-Duiveland in de the province of Zeeland here in the Netherlands) collects old stereo photographs. He has graciously scanned this one of old London for me. Thanks Aad!

What is the situation at this point today? Is there still anything recognizable?

greetings,

Marc Immeker

 

[owlsroost]

I think the view is looking eastwards towards St Paul's cathedral (the dome in the background), Ludgate Hill is the road passing under the bridge.

The bridge was removed when the Thameslink railway line (as it is now) was moved into a tunnel below the road, but the buildings on the left were still there in 1988 according to a photo here - http://www.pendar.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Tube/Thameslink.html (taken before the new tunnel was built).

There is a recent aerial photograph of the area here - http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newmap.srf?x=531682&y=181185&z=1&sv=531682,181185&st=4&lu=P&mapp=newmap.srf&searchp=newsearch.srf&ax=531682&ay=181185 - I think the railway line can be seen at bottom of the picture, just left of centre before it disappears into the tunnel.

Tony

[Simon Reed]

Marc - Edinburgh airport is fairly close to the existing route between Edinburgh, Fife and Northern Scotland. A station is under construction (it may already be open - have'nt checked.)

There is a light rail scheme under construction in Edinburgh and it is very controversial. Government funding for several proposed light rail systems in England (Leeds, Liverpool, Portsmouth/Gosport) has been withdrawn indefinately but construction of Edinburgh has been allowed to continue.

Firstly, Edinburgh is in Scotland where public transport expenditure is more readily available. Secondly, the Transport Minister who made the above decisions is an MP for - Edinburgh!

Interestingly our deputy Prime Minister, John Prescott, made a speech last week explaining that our government remains deeply committed to all forms of public transportation including - as he specifically mentioned - light rail.

We can have any number of idealogical commitments - putting them into practice is a whole different matter.    

  

[Tulyar15]

Given his record of failing to deliver what he's promised, I would take anything John "2 Jags" Prescott says with a very large pinch of salt.

Ironically I think Byers was the best transport minister. At least the way he set up Network Rail in such a way that it enjoys the best of both worlds. On the one hand being a nominally private company it is not shackled by the UK Treasury's very short term penny pinching approach, on the other hand it is effectively under government control and so can look at the big picture. Who knows, we may yet see the Oxford - Worcester Cotswold line re-doubled!

[John Bakeer]

A large pinch! Ty a truck load.

[Simon Reed]

Edinburgh Airport station is not yet open.

The Transport Minister I was referring to was Alistair Darling, Byers successor and, I think, the longest serving transport minister for many years.

He was'nt too bad either, as they go. He was certainly pro-rail. Having said that he did preside over a period of relative efficiency and stability on the network.

You can tell I'm coming to the end of a very long shift - I'm almost speaking favourably of the New Tories!      

[devils]

for our American (and anybody else for that matter) friends. Those who want to find out what a "signaller" does on the railway, have a butchers at the following site

.

www.readingpsb.org

.

cogload.

[Tulyar15]

Meanwhile, getting back to trains, I had an enjoyable weekend at the West Somerset Railway's Gala weekend, where no less than 14 steam locos were running. For me the star of the show was undoubtedly 'Lord Nelson', the newly restored Southern Railway 4-6-0. Not only is it a rare 'cop' being the only survivor of its class, but it is an unusual beast. It has 4 cylinders but unlike most 4 cylinder steam locos (eg GW "King" 4-6-O's and LMS "Coronation" 4-6-2's) where the cranks are set at 90 degrees giving 4 beats per revolution, the Lord Nelsons had their cranks set at 135 degrees giving 8 softer beats per revolution. This makes the Lord Nelsons a lot quieter - "stealth locos" as one fellow railfan said.

[devils]

I have shares in the WSR (as alluded to earlier on in this thread) and am glad to see they are making sterling (no pun intended) progress on the turning triangle at Norton Fitzwarren. Part of the trackbed of the former Barnstaple line will be used for the triangle, anmd it seems that some operators are eying up a quasi scheduled service to Minehead over the summer months.

Cogload.

n.b. I do wish Westbury would stop sending freight trains over! Interrupting my rule book study.....

[Tulyar15]

The WSR have also got a turntable ready to be installed at Mineahead. So they'll be able to turn locos at both ends of the line.

For those who like the sound of Maybach music, their "Mixed Traffic 1965" gala on June 15 - 17 will feature all the resident diesel hydraulics plus a couple of visitors!

[cogloadreturns]

Just testing the new sign on. Can't cope with all things new fangled technology n all........

[Murphy Siding]

Just testing the new sign on. Can't cope with all things new fangled technology n all........

cogload you devil!  Are you having personality issues?  Are you no longer in Cornwall?  I enjoyed the link about what a signalman does.  Thanks