British Railway Operations

[Tulyar15]

What locos are these trains worked by?

 I went to Glouceste last night and saw a couple of rakes of First Great Western Mk 2 coaches stabled, with a Cotswold Rail 47 at either end. If anyone knows what routes/services they plan to use these on I'd like to know

[John Bakeer]

The rock trains I have seen are usually hauled by a pair of Yanks-56-66-etc.

I used to get 'Railway Magazine' it had a section devoted to comings and goings or something like that. There are now so many railway mags. It wll be pot look finding such info. But it'll be in there some where.

NIHIL DICE.

[John Bakeer]

GNER are in financial difficulties and their franchise is up for grabs, looks like they made a bad deal with the government by agreeing too high a payback after over estimating passenger growth. Where are they?

NIHIL DICE.

[Murphy Siding]

The trains that convey rock through Stockport (mainly at night) are usually topped and tailed. I have not seen any in MU mode.

NIHIL DICE.

     John:  Can you tell me again what "topped and tailed" means?  I seem to recall it meant the train had a locomotive on each end?   Thanks

[Tulyar15]

Your quite right. MurphySiding, "Top and tailed" means having a loco at each end.

 In general with freight trains this means having a crew in each loco, but with passenger trains, most of the passenger cars are thru wired for mutiple working so the locos and either end are working in mutilple, with just one driver in the leading cab.

[John Bakeer]

Hi Murphy,

Tulyar has answered your question for me, he is absolutely correct.

NIHIL DICE.

[Murphy Siding]

Your quite right. MurphySiding, "Top and tailed" means having a loco at each end.

 In general with freight trains this means having a crew in each loco, but with passenger trains, most of the passenger cars are thru wired for mutiple working so the locos and either end are working in mutilple, with just one driver in the leading cab.

     I take this to be similar to what we would call a helper, or pusher locomotive, added only on steeper grades, with heavy trains?

     Speaking of just one driver.....This forum has had several threads about one man crews.  In Britain, where one man crews are common, what is the proceedure, if he has problems out on the line?

[Tulyar15]

These days the drivers all have radios so if a lone driver gets into difficulties of any sort he can call for help. In the old days the protocol was that the driver would walk forward to the next signal box whilst the guard (conductor) would walk back, and place detonators behind the train to warn the crew of an assisting loco.

 The practice of using helper (or bankers as we call  them here) locos to help trains up steep grades used to be come in Britain but nowadays is confined to a few steep grades. One such is the Lickey Incline on the Birmingham - Gloucester line. It's 2 miles of 1 in 37 (2.7%). For many years in the days of steam it was the home of the only 10 coupled steam loco in Britain. This 4 cylinder behemoth, nicknamed "Big Bertha" was built in 1920 and finally replaced in 1956 by a BR Standard 2-10-0. The 2-10-0 inheried Big Bertha's large headlamp; unusually for a British loco she had a large headlamp to help the crews see in the dark when buffering up to a train. Nowadays a small batch of about 5 class 66's are used, with special modified front couplings so they can uncouple at the top without having to stop.

[John Bakeer]

With apologies to Tulyar,

Another reason for topping and tailing is that in the absence of run round facilities at some  destinations all the driver has to do is walk to the other end. as all modern passenger stock is air conditioned the drain on the locomotive generator is substantial, so where a single 37 could do the work an extra one is added (a lot of 37's have been released with the introduction of DMU's in Scotland etc.). Nevertheless as Tulyar states freight trains will need two crews.

Amend Tulyars first para. delete 'assisting loco'. add 'following train'.

NIHIL DICE.

[Murphy Siding]

     Questions about Class 44 "Peak" locomotives....I was reading a train book (go figure), about Class 44's, and was surprised to see they were of a 1-Co-Co-1.  It didn't make any sense to me, to have unpowered axles.  Since it appears they were used for express passenger train, was it to improve high speed handling characteristics?

     More interesting, though, was  their "Sulzer twin-bank engines (with two parallel crank shafts in the same crankcase)".  What would be the advantage of designing an engine like that?  By 1959, vee-type engines with a single crankcase were pretty common.  Why build something odd?

     Thanks

[beaulieu]

Easier to balance in the days before you had computers to calculate the firing order. It is said the EMD simulated 55,000 different possible firing orders for their V20 before find the one with the least stress on the crankshaft, and still they had problems with breaking crankshafts. Also having two geared together means having a shorter crankshaft.

[John Bakeer]

Mirrlees-Blackstone here in Stockport were building twin crankshaft machines in the early 1980's as I had responsibility for using them in combined heat and power systems for industrial installations. They were a bit on the large size though.

NIHIL DICE.

[Tulyar15]

     Questions about Class 44 "Peak" locomotives....I was reading a train book (go figure), about Class 44's, and was surprised to see they were of a 1-Co-Co-1.  It didn't make any sense to me, to have unpowered axles.  Since it appears they were used for express passenger train, was it to improve high speed handling characteristics?

In the late 1940's civil engineers were concerned about the weight of the early prototype diesel and gas turbine locos, so in several cases extra axles were added to reduce the axle weight. The first main line diesel locos to run in Britain, LMS #10000 had a 21 ton axle weight and Co-Co wheel arrangement (and was powered by an English Electric 4stroke V16 engine which would see use, progressively uprated, in the BR Class 40. 50 and 56 diesel electric locos and in several similar locos built by EE for export, such as the Portuguese 1800 class

The Southern railway, being a fan of all things EE wanted to order similar locos for its lines in SW England where it realised electrification would never be viable. But because many of these lines were restricted to an 18 ton axle weight, it chose a 1Co-Co1 chassis. (The design of the chassis was based on the existing Co-Co Electric locos the SR had built during WW2. ). The three prototype SR diesels formed the basis of the Class 40 diesels built for BR by EE in the 1950's.

By the 1950's Sulzer engines had established a track record in rail use. In Britain the Birmingham Carriage & Wagon Co had built diesel locos with 6 cylinder single bank Sulzer engine for railways in Australia, Ireland and a number of African countries. Similarly powered locos were built for BR (classes 26/7) and BR themselves built about 500 such locos in their own workshops at Derby, Crewe and Darlington. Interestingly the BR ones were Bo-Bo but the ones supplied to Ireland were of A1A-A1A wheel arrangement (again to reduce axle weight!). Since the 12 cylinder Sulzer engine was heavier than the 16 cylinder English Electric one referred to above (but more powerful, 2,300hp against 2000hp) BR decided to adopt the same chassis for the "Peak" class diesel locos. The initial batch of 10 had their engines rated at 2300hp, but the production batch had their engines uprated to 2,500hp. In service one a few teething troubles were sorted out they gave good service. Under the TOPS classification schemm the original pilot batch of 10 becaome Class 44, the production ones with electical components made by Crompton Parkinson became class 45 whilst the final production batch had electricals by Brush and became Class 46.

In due course the Sulzer engine was uprated to 2,700 hp and improved body constructional techniques enabled Brush to design a Co-Co loco with the 2,700 engine but with a lighter axle weight than the "Peaks" - these became the 500 strong Class 47. (In fact the Birmingham Carriage & Wagon Co had built such a beast in its bid to get the order for 500 2,700hp locos from BR, but that firms bankrutpcy resulted in it having to sell its prototype loco (to Brush!) who won the contest with a design stolen from a (by then bankrupt) competitor.

     More interesting, though, was  their "Sulzer twin-bank engines (with two parallel crank shafts in the same crankcase)".  What would be the advantage of designing an engine like that?  By 1959, vee-type engines with a single crankcase were pretty common.  Why build something odd?

     Thanks

I do not know much of the earlier history of the twin bank Sulzer engine though I gather it was used in some French diesel locos which were still running quite recently. Brush supplies some class 47's to Cuba (these have now been scrapped) and then went on to build the "Kestrel" which had a similar body to a 47 but a 16cylinder 4000hp Sulzer engine. This loco was claimed to be the most powerful diesel loco in the world when it was built in 1967 but BR were not interested and it was eventually sold to Russia. When BR next ordered some diesel locos in 1974 they specified that Brush had to use the EE 16cylinder engine - now uprated to 3,300hp and the resulting class became BR Class 56. Ironically as Brush did not have the capacity their share of the order (the first 30 locoes) were built in Romanis, the rest in BR workshops at Doncaster and Crewe. No more Sulzer engined locos were ordered by BR after the class 47's and Brush's final offering to BR, the Class 60's employed a straight 8 cylinder Mirrlees engine.

[Simon Reed]

Many many pages ago we discussed the Class 44-46 "Peaks."

Although now long gone they are remembered with great fondness by the men who worked them for their sure-footedness and acceleration.

Whilst the 1-Co-Co-1 wheel arrangement was primarily designed, as above, to reduce axle loadings it has the side effect of enabling a quick getaway.

The propensity of any vehicle under acceleration is to "lean backwards." In rail terms this is best illustrated by the very un-American concept of the 2-6-4 tank loco, which was primarily developed by evolution as a suburban machine capable of maintaining tight point to point timings.

The trailing truck (the "4") served to distribute and thereby dissipate the downforces generated in acceleration, reducing the possibility of wheelslip under heavy acceleration on a damp rail. The trailing axle on a Peak served the same purpose.

If you consider the power distribution characteristics of front -v- rear wheel drive cars you'll follow the logic.

I suspect that the concept of an unpowered axle never caught on in North America because of the emphasis there on horsepower over performance.      

[martin.knoepfel]

Another change of subject.

The Swiss newspaper Neue Zürcher Zeitung wrote, trains were no alternatives for airline-passangers stranded at Heathrow-Airport due to thick fog. The reason: in the UK, trains do not run on dec. 25th and 26th. Is this true? If so, why? Of course, nobody would run commuter-trains on Christmas and Boxing-Day, but wouldn't be be at least sufficient patronage for a reduced sunday- or holiday-timetable? And what about Eurostar and the Chunnel-trains for trucks and cars?

[John Bakeer]

Our trains and buses only run when the operators expect to make a profit, my experience is that passengers are an inconvenience and should be made to pay top dollar for the privilege of daring to use their services.

Our government(s) believe(s) in competition in everything, therefore buses compete with trains and with each other thereby leaving the public with a system totally lacking integration. A few local authorities are trying to break the vicious circle, but they are working against the system.

Euro tunnel and Euro star operates broadly as above.

NIHIL DICE.

[John Bakeer]

My understanding of the Peaks extra idle axle (pony truck) was to help them get round corners.

NIHIL DICE.

[Murphy Siding]

     How old, in general, is the equipment on British railways?  I know there are lots of new Class 66 locomotives around.  What of the other locomotives and cars?

[Anonymous]

i know it is going back a bit but the designe of the twin bank Sulzer engins in the Peaks was a very old one. The first Sulzer LDA appered in 1929 and it was just tweaked and streached for nearly 40 years. if GM had difficulties getting a bullet proof V20 in the 1960's imagine trying to get a bullet proof anything in the late 1920's.

[Hugh Jampton]

     How old, in general, is the equipment on British railways?  I know there are lots of new Class 66 locomotives around.  What of the other locomotives and cars?

 

From this site http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2006-11-28c.103600.h the average age of the UK passenger fleet as of 1st October 2006 is 13.5 years. It was 20.7 years in 2000, and 22.7 years in 1995. THere's a breakdown by operator as well if you want to see who has the newest and oldest trainsd in the country.

As for freight the age of rolling stock is similary low due to the purchase of the 66s and a lot of cars to meet new flows. 

[prbharris]

Another change of subject.

The Swiss newspaper Neue Zürcher Zeitung wrote, trains were no alternatives for airline-passangers stranded at Heathrow-Airport due to thick fog. The reason: in the UK, trains do not run on dec. 25th and 26th. Is this true? 

Well it is true that there were no trains on the Christmas Day and no domestic services on the 26th - that meant all the long distance coaches were full on the 26th [called Boxing Day in the UK] so I took my daughter 250km by car - and returned empty. But when the airport was fog bound there were plenty of trains, as this was on the Wednesday-Friday before the Christmas weekend.

However, there was little information available on the alternative train journeys at the airports. It would have been easy for someone attempting to get to Scotland or NE England to have got a train from Heathrow to London, the Tube across town, and then the GNER. There were a number of spaces on the many trains that ran. It looked as though not many people were encouraged to take this option. It was a bit more expensive than the usual air fare, but not beyond most pockets. In the end, there were domestic flights on  Saturday, so all the queues got away before the holiday.

I think that many people who book by air do not look at alternatives, so did not think of using the fast [sometiomes dor to door faster] and available long distance trains. They were not helped to look for these by the airlines either.

Regards

Peter Harris 

[martin.knoepfel]

Thank you for your interesting answer, Peter Harris. IMHO, the airlines should have at least payed hotel-rooms for their stranded passengers. Considering hotel-costs in London, it would most probably be cheaper to direct some passengers onto a train and inform them properly and accordingly.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Thank you for your interesting answer, Peter Harris. IMHO, the airlines should have at least payed hotel-rooms for their stranded passengers. Considering hotel-costs in London, it would most probably be cheaper to direct some passengers onto a train and inform them properly and accordingly.

My wife and I were stranded in Miami about a year ago when our connecting flight home was cancelled and later flights were badly delayed due to a severe snowstorm over Chicago.  The airline rep advised us that the airline would pick up our hotel tab only if the delay was due to mechanical problems, not the weather.  I would assume that most carriers worldwide have the same policy regarding weather delays.

[John Bakeer]

They've just whacked up the fares on UK trains by more than either need or inflation! Why?

Because too many people want to use them!!

I give up!

[Tulyar15]

They've just whacked up the fares on UK trains by more than either need or inflation! Why?

Because too many people want to use them!!

I give up!

I know what you mean. Despite Tony B's promises. a joined up UK Govt policy on transport and the environment etc seems as far away as ever. On the one hand the Stern report said we need to act on GLobal Warming, so we should be encouraging rail and not building more airports. But the Eddington report on transport said precisely the opposite! (But then not really surprising since Sir Rod Eddington is a former director of British Airways!).

But the real problem is that the final control of government policy lies with the treasury, who are very short sighted! Like most accountants, those at the Treasury know the price of everything but don’t appreciate the value of anything. For example they are against improvements to public transport because they'd would get less tax revenue from petrol if more people ditched their cars. Talk about not seeing the big picture!

[John Bakeer]

And yet they can find billions for the totally pointless olympics. Our tramway expansion has been sacrificed on this sacred cow!

[Tulyar15]

Thank you for your interesting answer, Peter Harris. IMHO, the airlines should have at least payed hotel-rooms for their stranded passengers. Considering hotel-costs in London, it would most probably be cheaper to direct some passengers onto a train and inform them properly and accordingly.

My wife and I were stranded in Miami about a year ago when our connecting flight home was cancelled and later flights were badly delayed due to a severe snowstorm over Chicago.  The airline rep advised us that the airline would pick up our hotel tab only if the delay was due to mechanical problems, not the weather.  I would assume that most carriers worldwide have the same policy regarding weather delays.

A neighbour of mine got stucvk at London Heathrow in the fog. Eventually he ended up travelling to Europe by Eurostar and was very impressed. So Eurostar gains another convert!

[MStLfan]

Several times I have come across the name of a colonel Stephens. He seemed to be involved with financially less well of minor railways.

Can anybody give some details about the man, his company and his railroads?

thanks,

greetings,

Marc Immeker

[Tulyar15]

Holman F Stephens trained as an apprentice on the Metropolitan Railway, before WW1. During the WW1 he served with the Royal Engineers, rising to the rank of Colonel. After the war he came into some money which he used to buy up ailing light railways. These include the Kent & East Sussex, the East Kent and the Shropshire and Montgomeryshire. He managed to keep all these running thru the difficult economic climate of the 1930's when a lot of similar lines closed down. His lines became magnets for railfans because of the all the old locos and rolling stock they acquired.

Athough most of Col. Stephens lines had been excluded from the 1923 Grouping which created the Big Four companies, those that survived in 1948, which included the first two mentioned above, were nationalised. The two Kent lines mentioned above have now been preserved, while the Shropshire and Montgomeryshire was taken over by the British Army on the outbreak of WW2 (the sparsely populated areas of those counties made it in an ideal place to site ammunition dumps etc) and carried on under Army ownership until 1960.

[devils]

The Kent and East Sussex Was a Col. Stephens Job. In a former life I used to work on a farm which abutted Northiam Station.

Cogload

(masquerading as devils).