British Railway Operations

[al-in-chgo]

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Please pardon me if this has come up beforehand in this very long post--

At least, pre-privatization, were British train systems, lines, or companies ever referred to as anything other than a "railway"? 

Consensus here seems to be that in the US (probably not in Canada), both "railway" and "railroad" are used.  There is a very limited usage, I've been told, in which railway is preferable to mean "this particular line"; otherwise they seem to be just a matter of tradition--

--and when tradition must fall, many a railROAD has gone into a merger or holding company as (or with) new railWAY, and probably the opposite.  So I might as well ask, given all these years of privatization, if someone has tried that semantic shift in the UK.  I guess it really isn't unethical.  But is "railroad" seen in the UK as such an Americanism that it really wouldn't feel quite right to use it? ? 

A grateful nation awaits your reply.

Vty,

Al ("al-in-chgo")

 

 

[Tulyar15]

As far as I know, we always use the term 'railway' or shortened to 'rail'

In the very early days I believe one or two companies used the term 'railroad' here but it did not catch on here. (In Wales, the Welsh word for railway "Rheilffordd" literally translates as rail road!. In quite a few European languages including French, Italian and Spanish their words for rail road translate as "iron road").

Some early railways were called tramways or tramroads (or in one case "The South Gloucestershire and River Avon Dramroad" - that last word was an alternative for 'tram' - sounds a bit Scottish).

[Simon Reed]

An interesting question of semantics.

In the UK the use of the word "Railroad" would unquestionably be described as an Americanism and is certainly not in common parlance.

"Road" by itself, however, is a commonly used term amongst rail employees - examples would be a train given authority to proceed by signallers (despatchers) which would be said to "have the road." A driver (engineer) familiar with a particular route would be said to "know the road."

Conversely, in North American parlance civil engineering works are known as "Maintenance of WAY."    

[devils]

Railroad is an Americanism over here. Although, rather like "FALL" it is probabley the correct term.

As has been stated "the road is off" or "getting the road" is used very very frequently.

.

On a more cynical note, sorry optimistic, £19m has been thrown at the Merthyr branch in Welsh Wales and £35m at the Glasgow and South Western. There couldn't be any elections coming up could there?  

[Murphy Siding]

 Although, rather like "FALL" it is probabley the correct term.

? Like spring, summer, fall?

[Simon Reed]

Just like that - we call it Autumn here.

Not sure that your cynicsm is entirely justified Devils - The G&SW has been long overdue for heavy investment to increase capacity for Hunterston etc. traffic, and also to make it a more viable diversionary alternative for WCML.

I would also have to question the political currency of a G&SW upgrade - it's hardly a key corridor through heavily populated marginals.    

 

[al-in-chgo]

An interesting question of semantics.

In the UK the use of the word "Railroad" would unquestionably be described as an Americanism and is certainly not in common parlance.

"Road" by itself, however, is a commonly used term amongst rail employees - examples would be a train given authority to proceed by signallers (despatchers) which would be said to "have the road." A driver (engineer) familiar with a particular route would be said to "know the road."

Conversely, in North American parlance civil engineering works are known as "Maintenance of WAY."    

   

 

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In the USA, people have to park in the driveway but they get to drive on the parkway! 

Does that make any sense in British vernacular? 

;) Al

 

[Simon Reed]

There are all sorts of linguistical inconsistancies between our countries - for example if I drove on the pavement in the UK, which you stateside folk do all the time, I would be arrested. Our pavement is your sidewalk.

Another rail-specific one which springs to mind is the place at which passenger trains stop. I read in US books and magazines of this being called either a station or a depot. Is there some historical or geographical explanation for this dual usage?

In the UK a passenger facility is invariably called a station. We use the word depot (although we pronounce it DEP-oh) primarily to signify a maintenance facility for trains or buses. Historically it was also used to signify a frieght trans-shipment facility although this usage has fallen out of currency primarily because these facilities have been replaced by nodal hubs.  

[John Bakeer]

Simon,

Unless you are a cyclist, and then all rules about pavements, footpaths, pedestrian only areas, traffic signals, signs, the highway code etc. do not apply.

From my viewing of cowboy films, I deduce that a depot handles frieght and passengers and a  way station had relays of horses stabled for the stage coachs along with passenger comforts. Many early railroads paralelled or followed said stage routes.

Funny you should mention elections Devils. As a pensioner I can't help but notice the odd carrot being cast in our direction. Unfortunately because I have modest savings and a small company pension, all I get are tax increases. I think there could be a lot of labour councillors made redundant come the May local elections.

[Murphy Siding]

   Something interesting I found in a generic sort of book called The Illustrated History of British Railway by Geofrey Freeman Allen:caption under a photo.  "As traffic increased steadily on Britain's railways, locomotives capable of hauling the increased loads became in short supply.  The Midland attempted to overcome this problem by purchasing 'kits' from the Baldwin Locomotive Works in the U.S.A.  Assembly was at Derby works where this photograph was taken about 1900.  The photo shows a locomotive under assembly.  It does not not have wheels or cab yet, but has the British type buffers.   Was this the great grand-father of the Class 66 program?

[Tulyar15]

Not Quite!

In about 1900 all British loco manufacturers had more orders than they could meet. So a number of railways, notably the Midland, the Great Northern and the Great Central purchased 2-6-0's from Bawldin. But these locos did not have a long life.

During WW2 US built 0-6-0T's and 2-8-0's were used in Britain. Some of the 0-6-0T's were purchased by the Southern Railway, but most were exported to Europe as were the 2-8-0s apart from a couple which remained on the Longmoor Military Railway in Hampshire. Some of these engines can still be found in E Europe. The 0-6-0T's were copied by both the Yugoslav and Polish railways and further examples built.

It was a result of the Irish experience with EMD (having bought lots of unreliable British built diesel locos in the 1950's they switched to EMD in the 1960's and have bought nothing else since then.).locos that British Rail decided to dip its toe in the water by allowing one of its freight customers to purchase its own locos from EMD. These became Class 59 and were an instant success. As a result when privitisation happened and BR's freight operations were bought by Ed Burklardt it was a foregone conclusion that he would buy EMD locos. Since then the Class 66 has been bought by railways all over Europe.

[Murphy Siding]

Not Quite!

In about 1900 all British loco manufacturers had more orders than they could meet. So a number of railways, notably the Midland, the Great Northern and the Great Central purchased 2-6-0's from Bawldin. But these locos did not have a long life.

  To what would you attribute their short lives?  Were Baldwin loco's built to a different quality standard than British loco's of the time?

[Tulyar15]

I think that's the opinion from what I've read on the subject; I suspect also they had a number of what would be in a British context non-standard features.

On the other hand, British designers were well aware of developments in the USA. It is well known that Gresley based the design of his A1/A3 Pacifics (of which "Flying Scotsman" is the only survivor) on the Pennsylvania K4 Pacifics. Conversely ALCO bought the rights to use Gresleys conjugated valve gear (enabling the valves on 3 cylinder locos to be operated with 2 sets of Walschearts gear) in North America and used it on a number of their products.

[mhurley87f]

Railroad is an Americanism over here. Although, rather like "FALL" it is probabley the correct term.

As has been stated "the road is off" or "getting the road" is used very very frequently.

.

On a more cynical note, sorry optimistic, £19m has been thrown at the Merthyr branch in Welsh Wales and £35m at the Glasgow and South Western. There couldn't be any elections coming up could there?  

True enough, the Elections for the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly Government are comin up in May.

Let's get things in perspective, 'though. £19m would buy approximately 35-40 3-Bedroom semi-detached houses facing Roath Park Lake in Cardiff, or perhaps 10 nice "country houses" like those you see in Horse & Hound Magazine (not that I read that sort of crap) in the Monmouth Abergavenny area.

All we're getting looks like reinstating a loop somewhere in the Black Lion - Merthyr Vale area by laying 2 miles of new track, a minor bit of signalling work,and tarting up two stations!!

Our Political Masters greeted the news as an investment in a Key Commuter Route. Shame no-one poicked them up on the money they've wasted over the years "hamstringing" services on those very same Key Commuter Routes by singling what had earlier been double track lines (in the case of the Rhondda Fawr, quadruple would you believe) in the Valley Lines Network !!

Still, mustn't grumble !! I know who'se getting my vote.

Martin

 

 

 

[John Bakeer]

  I recollect about the time I got interested in the Trains forums (2004-5) there was a lengthy discussion about a Baldwin Atlantic imported by someone. It was erected by the L & Y, ran a few miles but had problems with clearances etc. It failed to raise any interest and eventually went for scrap, it had a bell which if my memory serves me right is with the NRM. Again I think it was the only direct import of a USA standard gauge locomotive prior to WWII.

The Riddles WD2-8-0s were built to UK loading gauge, consequently surviving right to the end of steam, the American samples saw service all over Europe and the Middle East where the more generous loading gauge suited them. The KWVR have a Polish? or Rumanian? USA built WD2-8-0, the Southern Railway had a number of USA 0-6-0 tanks that lasted well into BR days, the only WD2-10-0 I Know of was Gordon on the Longmoor Military Railway, who built it and where it is? I do not know. 

The only US loco' to be fitted with Walschaerts vlve motion was UP's 3 cylinder  2-12-2 as built the had the Gresley conjugated system, as the UP shops had problems setting them a third set of motion was added to the RHS leading to a rather odd appearance. Apparently they enjoyed some success but were soon replaced by articulated because the long rigid wheel base caused problems in yards etc.
  

[Murphy Siding]

     In a book about bridges and bridge engineering, there was a photo of some of the early bridges built by Brunel-out of wood!  A photo showed a railroad bridge  61 feet (18.6M) above the surrounding countryside, noting that it was later replaced by a masonry bridge.  In my part of the world-flat farm land, wooden bridges and trestles are still very common on branch lines.  Are they very common in Britain, given there is such a tradition of masonry construction there?

[Murphy Siding]

     Timber viaducts by Brunel:

St. Germans Viaduct, & St. Pinnock Viaduct (1859)on the Plymout to Truro section of the Cornwall Railway

Landore Viaduct  over the River Tawe, South Whales Railway

Redruth on the West Cornwall Line (1852)

Grover Viaduct on the Plymout-Troro line

Penponds, on the West Cornwall, between Truro and Penzance

     It seems the Falmouth branch had eight viaducts built after Brunel died, but following his design ideas.

     Two questions: 1) Why do they call them viaducts, and not bridges?  2) I know Brunel is associated with the Great Western Railway.  Was the GWR mostly in Cornwell?

 

[devils]

murphy

Gods Wonderful Railway (The Great Western) stretched from London, through to the South West of England, through South Wales and even as far as Midlands and Mid/ North Wales through various alliances and the like. It was possibly, the biggest of the big 4 after the '23 Grouping, although the Southern under Sir Herbert Walker was the more advanced.  As for where the term viaduct comes from - I think it is a Latin derivative - I do not know.

The Great Western was the dominant railway in Cornwall, but not the only one. The other "rival" was the London and South Western, most of whose network has now disappeared into the ether in the county. In fact, I think it has entirely. There were also various mineral railways dotted about. The Cornish railway was originally built to broad gauge, and they redesigned following the conversion (in a weekend!) to standard gauge and as a result also rebuilt a lot of the viaducts. The Falmouth branch (which I used to signal) has a plenty which you alluded to. Also the climate here probabley didin't help the cause for timber.

Get yer backside over and see. Cornwall in the summer is fantastic for a start (I would say that) and there are some simply brilliant branch trips to be had - The Looe and St Ives are definates and the Gunnislake is another.

 

Cogload (masquerading......)

 

[John Bakeer]

Marc,

I have just come across the Colonel Stephens Society web site;

http//www.colonelstephenssociety.org.uk 

 

[devils]

The only wooden structure left is Barmouth Bridge in North Wales (I think). That traverses an estuary with a swing bridge in the middle and was threatened by worm attack in the late 70's. Reference has already been made on this thread to it somewhere.

.

cogload

[Simon Reed]

Murphy - and anyone else interested...

I'm starting an exercise on thinning out my collection (5000+) of photographic prints.

These date from the early 80's to digital (2000) and are mainly UK although there's a fair bit of Western Europe (especially Ireland and Switzerland) and some US.

If anyone wants anything specific let me know and I'll see if I've got it. I'd have to charge postage but any prints are free.

Daveklepper - if you're still out there - plenty of Isle of Man and Blackpool stuff! 

 

[daveklepper]

Yes, I am still here.  But before I receive more pictures, I'll have to move to larger quarters.   I note the comment about the Southern being more advanced than G_d's Wonderful Railway, and I suppose that is reflected in the fact the all other three had Pacifics as their top passenger power and the GWR ten-wheelers.   Did the GWR own any steam power with a trailing truck under the firebox?   How does a Manor or Castle compare in performance compared with a Gresley A-4?

 Also, concerning Blackpool and IofM, I am an LRTA member, read Trams and Urban Transit cover-to-cover, like Trains and Classic Trains, and visit www.lrta.org often.   I'd say T&UT is definitely my third favorite magazine.   I've been an LRTA (formerly LRTL, League replaced by Association) member for possibly more than 40 years.

[Simon Reed]

We've recently moved to smaller quarters, hence the need (instruction!) to "get rid of all that stuff if you want to build another layout."

The A4 is probably best compared with the GWR King class, but direct comparisons are difficult to draw because of the different territory over which each operated. In terms of output and efficiency the Kings would always be at a disadvantage because of their smaller superheaters.

A4's, however, had a tendency to unreliabilty, a particular achillees heel being the inside big ends.

Whilst the Southern light and heavy pacifics were undoubtedly revolutionary their idiosyncracies prior to rebuilding also led to erratic performances.

So - hat in the ring time - that leaves us with Stanier's LMS Duchesses.

The 1948 loco trials were conducted just after the nationalisation of Britains railways, with a view to taking the best bits of all of the pre-nationalisation types to establish a best practise for the standard engines to be built subsequently.

Nobody, in hindsight, could suggest that the trials were undertaken in perfect or impartial conditions. The infrastructure of the railways was in poor condition after maintenance starvation during WW2 and the majority of the test engineers were from the LMS works at Derby.

In the express loco category, however, the Duchesses returned the best efficiencies, drawbar horsepower and reliabilty.

Oddly, though, and illustrative of the inconclusive nature of the tests the SR light pacifics were trialled on the steeply graded Highland main line from Perth to Inverness. On one occasion a light pacific established a time over this road (including Slochd Summit, which is the closest we get to Dunsmuir) which has STILL never been beaten....        

[Isambard]

  --------The only US loco' to be fitted with Walschaerts vlve motion was UP's 3 cylinder  2-12-2 as built the had the Gresley conjugated system, as the UP shops had problems setting them a third set of motion was added to the RHS leading to a rather odd appearance. Apparently they enjoyed some success but were soon replaced by articulated because the long rigid wheel base caused problems in yards etc.
  

This a bit off topic to the thread perhaps, but is prompted by the above:

The Walschaerts valve gear design was widely used in both U.S. and Canadian railroads. Some 88 Union Pacific 9000 Class loco's were built by Alco from 1926 to 1930 for heavy freight use. As built they had the Gresley conjugating valve system for the third cylinder. On eight engines this system was later replaced with a triple Walschaerts valve gear hung on the right side. In 1936 the 9000's were moved from main line service to a slower-speed division, superseded by the higher speed 4-6-6-4 Challengers. The 9000's continued in service into the early 1950's.

Loco Profile No. 16 features the UP 4-12-2's and is a good read (published September 1971).

[Tulyar15]

Yes, I am still here.  But before I receive more pictures, I'll have to move to larger quarters.   I note the comment about the Southern being more advanced than G_d's Wonderful Railway, and I suppose that is reflected in the fact the all other three had Pacifics as their top passenger power and the GWR ten-wheelers.   Did the GWR own any steam power with a trailing truck under the firebox?

YES, the GWR built the first 4-6-2 loco to run in Britain, #111 Churchward's "Great Bear" of 1908. Given that the Star 4-6-0's were more than capable of meeting the demands of hauling express passenger trains at that time, there was no immediate need for "The Bear" as #111 becoming nicknamed. Furthermore its great weight (24 ton axleweight) restricted it to running between London and Bristol - it settled into a diagram which included working parcels and milk trains!

There is little doubt that "The Bear" was an experimental engine but after Churchward's retirement in 1923, his successor Collett (who designed the "Castle" and "King" 4-6-0's) lost little time in rebuilding "the Bear" as a Castle 4-6-0. To add insult to injury it was renamed "Viscount Churchill" after the GW director who after his appointment in 1909 did all he could to put the brakes on Churchward's development programme.

[Tulyar15]

the only WD2-10-0 I Know of was Gordon on the Longmoor Military Railway, who built it and where it is? I do not know

"Gordon" was built by the North British loco at Glasgow, as were all the WD 2-10-0's. Since the closure of the Longmoor Military Railway in 1969, "Gordon" has been based on the Severn Valley Railway.

As I said earlier the Mid-Hants Railway re-imported two more WD 2-10-0's from Greece in the 1980s (where a number remain) but ended up selling them on to other lines - currently one is on the North Yorks. Moors Railway and the other on the North Norfolk.

I'm intrigued about this Baldwin 4-4-2 the L & Y imported; I've never heard of this loco before.

[Tulyar15]

the only WD2-10-0 I Know of was Gordon on the Longmoor Military Railway, who built it and where it is? I do not know

"Gordon" was built by the North British loco at Glasgow, as were all the WD 2-10-0's. Since the closure of the Longmoor Military Railway in 1969, "Gordon" has been based on the Severn Valley Railway.

As I said earlier the Mid-Hants Railway re-imported two more WD 2-10-0's from Greece in the 1980s (where a number remain) but ended up selling them on to other lines - currently one is on the North Yorks. Moors Railway and the other on the North Norfolk.

I'm intrigued about this Baldwin 4-4-2 the L & Y imported; I've never heard of this loco before.

[John Bakeer]

Tulyar,

You'll need to go back to about the time I joined this forum in 2004 when an extended correspondence took place about the mysterious Atlantic. The L&Y only assembled it they did not purchase, I doubt if it was actually purchased by any one.

  

[MStLfan]

Marc,

I have just come across the Colonel Stephens Society web site;

http//www.colonelstephenssociety.org.uk 

 

Thanks John!

greetings,

Marc Immeker

[mhurley87f]

The only wooden structure left is Barmouth Bridge in North Wales (I think). That traverses an estuary with a swing bridge in the middle and was threatened by worm attack in the late 70's. Reference has already been made on this thread to it somewhere.

.

cogload

Cogload,

I can assure you that Brunel's Loughor viaduct between Swansea and Llanelli is still in (intensive) use today. The track was singled back in the very late 1980s, but the viaduct is still good for 75mph for passenger trains, both DMU and HST, but down to 20mph for Loaded Freights (Steel Coil trains going west to Trostre and Loaded Oil Tanks heading east) when they have to be diverted from the Swansea Distric Line from time to time.

Don't forget, Brunel also designed notable timber viaducts at Aberdare, on the Dare Valley branch off the Vale of Neath Railway.

Martin