Railfanning, Homeland Security, and what we can and cannot do...

[Anonymous]

I live in Rochelle and have been a Railfan all my life. We are very fortunate to have a place we can go and do what we do best. Come on out and take advantage of what we have here and enjoy your hobby hassle free.

[Ed Dalton]

I was in Law Enforcement for 23 1/2 years. The answers come from the top (Sr NCO) NOT from the 9-1-1 operator, who is most cases have not a clue what they are talking about. Give the cops a break, they've got a very hard job to do, but at the same time - do not let them give you static whilst on public property taking photos's of trains. TELL them to check with their Sr NCO at headquarters, and then again, go above their head the next day until you get the proper answers!

[Anonymous]

howdy.

Is it just me or is this entire terror level rating thing getting a bit out of hand? Every time Osama sneezes in the wrong direction we raise the level. I think that we have become oversensitive to this whole thing. Yes I agree that what happened in NYC, and london was terrobile, yet I believe the day that we are worried about fellow foamers shooting photos, the terrorists have won. Now I dont know what kind of troubles you guys are having out west ( Im from Erie Pa,) with both UP and BNSF, but I think this is rediculus. We have never had a problem here in sunny valley with the police questioning railfans, Because we have places to cater to us. We have museums, and resturaunts, heck evev crossings that the cops wont come near, especially to question a innocent railfan. My suggestion to you is to do as many of my commrades in rails have done, and establish a place of railroad watching. Weather a resturaunt a Wye, or a empty parking lot, if it will serve as a refuge for railfans than its serving its purpuse. Isnt it? I realize that its not as good as the your union station, or the bridge overlooking the engine facility, but thats the world we live in today. And if it lasts another 2 weeks or for the duration of the hobby its just something were going to have to live with. Also alerting the media might work. But I wouldnt expect a change anytime soon. Thats the way I see it.

Many thanks for your time
Keep on railroading.
G.W.R

[Anonymous]

Protesting sounds great when you are being stopped by police. I know, a RR *** stopped me for taking pictures of a old turn table on the NS.

But, even if the policeman is wrong in his interpretation of the law, the minute you refuse to move on, you have started a potential chain reaction that will put you on the losing end of the law as you have disobeyed a direct order from a law enforcement officer. (He will claim that he had probable cause to stop you, and trust me that all in encompassing claim will be tough to dispute).

Now the charges start to mount. Resisting arrest, dis-obeying a lawful order, and disorderly conduct (if you create a disturbance, ie arguing, foul language,etc) Then comes the confiscation of your ($1500.00 or more digitial) camera with the potential of permanent damage. And after you are put in the paddy wagon, your vehicle will be towed for "your protection".

Oh, I forgot, you might be thumped on and rough handled cause the officer thought you were resisting him. And on and on it goes. (lawyer fees, court appearance and fines and jail time???)

One other thing. The courts and the law enforcement officers are tight. Judges trust and believe their officer over you any day of the week and twice on Sunday. If a Judge finds out an officer lies to him ( that is if the judge is an honest guy) then an officer has a tough time in court. But this is few and far between.

In other words, if stopped, you need to make a decision on how you want to handle the situation. Will I keep railfaining, you bet. Since my name and SSN is now logged in the files of NS in Roanoke Virginie, I'll have to be more careful.
And so should you!

[WhistlinDixie]

I haven't read every last post in this thread, but in a quick glance I didn't see any mention of Rochelle. If it is illegal to take pix of trains, then Rochelle must be like the Nevada of trainwatching--you know, the place where you can do things that are illegal everywhere else. I suppose that means there will soon be casinos and whorehouses in Rochelle (for those of you who have never visited that boring town in boring northern Illinois, the very thought of anything exotic there is funny as hell).

As for it being illegal to even watch trains, perhaps we ought to test the law by sitting on some public bench near a wifi hotspot, with a laptop clearly showing the Rochelle webcam. It would be good to scribble notes as we see trains appear, and perhaps wear trenchcoats as well.

I hope it is obvious I'm just being a smartass. The country seems to have come down with a serious case of the Ninnies. As others have pointed out, if you have any conception of statistical probabilities at all, you'll put terrorists far down on your list of things to fear. Living in Wisconsin as I do (Motto: "We welcome Illinoisans bearing tax dollars"), where alcohol consumption is much greater than the national average, I mostly fear inebriated idiots in the opposite lane of traffic.

[Anonymous]

I’ve read all the posts, is it true that you can't take pic's in the NY subway system? I’m sure I’ve heard and read that more than once, (they busted a 12 year old girl for eating a french fry in the subway system, was in all the news papers last week about her appearance in court) and isn't the subway a public transportation system? public property not private?
Thanks, Doug
Madison, Ohio

[Anonymous]

*mandelswamp* I read your post, not sure what to think, sound like you know what your talking about, but like I said, I heard and read, where you cant take pic's in the NY subway, not planning on going to NY anytime soon, but just wondering why I keep hearing different things, Doug
P.S. I wish i could think of the right thing to say about the london bombing's, and all the rest of what's going on in our world, at least when I'm out taking RR pic's it's a great escape from the troubles of the world

[Chris_S68]

Re: the original post.
This is nothing new in Elmhurst. I grew up there, and believe me, they always show up with plenty of backup no matter how innocuous the situation may seem.
If I'm envisioning things correctly, your location was somewhat off the beaten path, so it's not too surprising that you might draw some attention, particularly later in the evening when the shadows are getting long. Aside from that, the truth is some railroaders plain don't like railfans - maybe someone wanted to send some grief your way. When I was on the CNW, railfans were often referred to as "FRNs".
9/11 and the Patriot Act has muddied the waters, but as far as confusion as to what the laws are, that's nothing new either. Starting trouble would have done just that, so you handled things well. As others have mentioned, there's other, more appropriate ways of resolving the matter.

[alstom]

In Fostoria and Greenwich, Ohio, cops usually pass by up to 6 times a day. If you're not from around there, they'll usually ask you about it. Berea, Ohio is totally public. You can stand as close as you want to 75 mph trains and you won't get yelled at. They've never yelled at me for taking pictures (filming) the trains, although there was a couple of times where it almost happened, but somebody else warned me ahead of time. I say cops should loosen up and quit being such jerks[:(!]!!

[chad thomas]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Ed Dalton

I was in Law Enforcement for 23 1/2 years. The answers come from the top (Sr NCO) NOT from the 9-1-1 operator, who is most cases have not a clue what they are talking about. Give the cops a break, they've got a very hard job to do, but at the same time - do not let them give you static whilst on public property taking photos's of trains. TELL them to check with their Sr NCO at headquarters, and then again, go above their head the next day until you get the proper answers!

I agree. The way to handle it is to just that.[;)]

Check out all the new posters on this thread. Welcome to the forum guys.[8D]

[Anonymous]

I must interject that the term "towel heads" is not politically correct, nor is it technically correct. They do not wear towels on their heads.. It is a little sheet. Therefore, from now on please refer to them as "little sheet heads".
[;)][:D]

[chad thomas]

I thought the politicaly correct term was turbo top. But I like sheet heads better. [(-D][8D]

[LVJJJ]

"Wabneri" is right. I worked in a government office for 23 years where I was in charge of enforcing zoning and subdivision regulations. Prior to the Oklahoma City bombings, we didn't worry too much when customers got angry with us (not too many people like zoning laws, go figure). We were instructed to keep them in the office and work with them to calm them down. After Oklahoma City, we were instructed to call 9-1-1 at the first sign of anger on the part of the customer. We had code words to clear the office and for someone to call 9-1-1. As a supervisor I had to stay with the angry person and protect the rest of the office staff until the sheriff arrived. I retired in 2000, so I would imagine that after 9-11-01 security is even more strict in my old office. So, whether we railfans like it or not, any government enforcement officer is not going to stand around and argue the Constitution with you. I strongly recommend that if asked to leave, you do so very politely and take up the matter with the appropriate authorities at a later date. Larry in Las Vegas. (It is true that law enforcement is rather lax here in Nevada, there just aren't a lot of trains).

[Anonymous]

Let's get to the nitty-gritty of this incident. I know this area and there is no park near this location. The UP/Metra R.O.W. from the toll road (I-294) to Addison St. is landscaped and very park like but it is the UP/Metra R.O.W. If you were "inside the trees" you were on the railroad property. Stick to the grade crossing at Poplar Ave.

[Anonymous]

Mr. Bruno is right: paved public roads and sidewalks are a railfan's best friend.
[8D]

[owlsroost]

QUOTE: at least when I'm out taking RR pic's it's a great escape from the troubles of the world

Exactly [:)]

Tony

[Chris_S68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dabruno644

Let's get to the nitty-gritty of this incident. I know this area and there is no park near this location. The UP/Metra R.O.W. from the toll road (I-294) to Addison St. is landscaped and very park like but it is the UP/Metra R.O.W. If you were "inside the trees" you were on the railroad property. Stick to the grade crossing at Poplar Ave.

The nitty gritty would be that you apparently don't know the area as well as you think, and you apparently didn't read the author's post very well.
There is a small park called Golden Meadows tucked between the tollway and the residential area just North of the UP. The leads that head up to yard 9 skirt the Southeast edge of the park. Now, whether or not he went beyond any sort of boundry at some point...

[Anonymous]

Hi, I am a police officer from London who last October ran up against the morons (from clearly a very small gene pool) employed by the railroad in Lancaster, PA, surely not a hotbed of Islamic fundamentalism while pursuing my hobby of US railroads. Stop the paranoia, freight yards are not targets, large groups of travelling members of the public are where maximum casualties and the resultant publicity "further the cause".

[JimValle]

In the 1930's the Japanese built two gigantic battleships behind huge curtains made of sisal rope but they still ended up in the 1941 edition of Jane's Fighting Ships. I propose we hang similar curtains on both sides of every railroad right-of-way in the whole nation. That way nobody could see the trains and terrorists would have to rely on the millions and millions of pictures already in existence to gather the intelligence they need. Then the cops wouldn't have to impose what Mark Twain called " insect authority" on harmless railfans.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Colojack

There is more hysteria than security in Homeland Security. It's amazing how far people, including professionals like law enforcement, will go despite their gross ignorance. We live is scarey times--and not all from terrorists.

OUCH! LOL.
Allan.

[Anonymous]

Apropos the Japanese not-so-secret ship, does anyone remember about 20 years ago when Revell had to "retire" its model of the new stealth bomber prematurely because it was too darn much like the original?

What can I say, both the DoD and Revell obviously had design geniuses.

[Anonymous]

If a railroad cop tells you that you can't take pictures of trains from where you are standing, ask him where the property line is, especially if you are parked on a city street. Rental security officers are dumb as rocks. I was parked on a city street and this guy says that I can't take pictures, so I asked him if the railroad plows the street during wintertime? He didn't know what to say.

[Anonymous]

I am unable to get the link to Bert KragesII's website, linked on the first page of this thread, to work. Any help with a corrected or updated webpage address would be appreciated. We need to stand up and demand our Rights and make sure that when we act within the law, that we are not billied into believing that we are breaking the law. We need to make sure that both DAs and Local Police have up-to-date and correct information about what is legal to protograph. If it takes involving the medai, so be iit, but that will usually pi^^ off the cops even more, so providing them with accurate information and demanding that they too folow and enfore the accurate laws and NOT abridge your constitutional rights is very important. If you get stopped and asked to leave, don;t argue, but DO ask for contact information for the cops superiors and make sure you get accurate info to them on the corrent photography laws and about how you were NOT in violation of any laws, and perhaps even offer to get some railfans together to do a seminar for the Plice to educate them about what railfans are all about, and how 'we' would appreciate their understanding of us, and our compliance of the actual and real laws. If we don't stand up to this and assert our rights as Citizens of a Free Nation, then the terrorist sandrats win. The challenge is to make the cops our allies in defense of our legal and Constitutional rights. Education is the best way I know of.
Jennifer

[route_rock]

As long as you are on public property I am not going to care. If you are standing right next to the tracks ( or better yet on main 2 in Downers Grove) then Hell yeah your getting arrested if you dont get killed first.

Are terrorists looking for major calamity? Yes they are. Would a major freight yard do the trick? Sure if it has the right cars in it.

If its illegal to take pictures of trains from RR property does this mean I am going to get fired? Hell a lot of us are taking pics of you guys just for giggles. One of my fellow conductors takes pics of cars with artisitc grafitti on em.

Act smart dont be stupid when dealing with the cops. BNSF RR Police have an attitude as do any RR cop. their job is to get tresspassers out and keep claims down.If Matt Rose's car goes by an area with a bunch of railfans standing near the tracks then the RR cops are going to look like they dont do anything. And yes Matt has been on the Chicago div recently.

[nobullchitbids]

QUOTE: Originally posted by chad thomas

I thought the politicaly correct term was turbo top. But I like sheet heads better. [(-D][8D]

A word of advice from someone who actually once chased terrorists for a living and has read his share of terrorist literature:

A primary tactic of all terrorists (who have no real influence by themselves) is to get everyone excited and induce law enforcement and others to beat up the innocent in the course of suppressing what really is, overall, an inconsequential threat. Terrorists call this "the war of the flea."

The scenario goes like this: An elephant comes to the village, and the villagers all go out to see it. At first, they like the elephant because it is such an unusual and amazing creature, and everyone wants to be friends with the elephant; but, the flea has other plans -- he hops on the elephant and locates himself on the elephant's testicles, where he bites the elephant incessantly. If one thinks about it, such flea bites really cannot hurt the elephant, but they are an annoyance, and this makes the elephant mad. No matter, because whatever the elephant does, he can do nothing about the flea biting his balls, so the elephant instead stomps around in a rage, digging up the gardens, kicking in the hutches, and trampling the children. This, of course, only affronts the villagers, who have spears, and eventually they go and kill the elephant -- something the flea never could have done.

Perhaps it is amusing to make sport of strange religions and stranger ways; but, the reality is that the numbers of actual terrorists are very few, and that those who are the butt of the jokes are very numerous. We may laugh for now, but eventually we will find ourselves much like the man who abuses his wife from suspicion and who, by his abuse, turns his suspicions into reality.

Who would be the "towel head" then?

[Anonymous]

I know what he's going through. However, this cap has been going before 9-11. Sept. 11 is just a handy excuse for law enforsement agencies to abuse their power. I know, I've been on the receiving end long before the attacks. One good example occured back in the late 1990's. My brother, some friends and myself wre train watching in the St. Louis area. A security guard appeared and asked what we were doing there. We told him the truth. He said we can sit there as long as we stay off the tracks. Then a jerk with Metrolink aqppeared. The guard told him what he had told us. The jerk wasn't satisfied. He told us we had go to Illinois to train watch, we weren't allowed to train watch in the state of Missouri. I wanted to tell him to go some place and do something with his anatomy but I knew better. Where did this idiot get the right to make such a statement? I don't know. Unfortunately, I see things getting much worse before they get better.

[railroadnut675]

this totally sucks , I think we should tell the media then Maybe we could get an explanation from an under -pressure politician-big shot

[railroadnut675]

We should contact the media ; I demand an explanation ; it would also make a good news story I thinkthe general public should no

[owlsroost]

QUOTE:

A primary tactic of all terrorists (who have no real influence by themselves) is to get everyone excited and induce law enforcement and others to beat up the innocent in the course of suppressing what really is, overall, an inconsequential threat. Terrorists call this "the war of the flea."

The scenario goes like this: An elephant comes to the village, and the villagers all go out to see it. At first, they like the elephant because it is such an unusual and amazing creature, and everyone wants to be friends with the elephant; but, the flea has other plans -- he hops on the elephant and locates himself on the elephant's testicles, where he bites the elephant incessantly. If one thinks about it, such flea bites really cannot hurt the elephant, but they are an annoyance, and this makes the elephant mad. No matter, because whatever the elephant does, he can do nothing about the flea biting his balls, so the elephant instead stomps around in a rage, digging up the gardens, kicking in the hutches, and trampling the children. This, of course, only affronts the villagers, who have spears, and eventually they go and kill the elephant -- something the flea never could have done.

Perhaps it is amusing to make sport of strange religions and stranger ways; but, the reality is that the numbers of actual terrorists are very few, and that those who are the butt of the jokes are very numerous. We may laugh for now, but eventually we will find ourselves much like the man who abuses his wife from suspicion and who, by his abuse, turns his suspicions into reality.

Who would be the "towel head" then?

Well said, nobullchitbids - I think that's the best analogy I've ever seen of how terrorists attempt to influence public opinion, and pertinent advice on not turning friends into potential enemies.

Tony

[RudyRockvilleMD]

Jennifer:
The website for Bert Krages is: www.krages.com/phoright.htm. That works for me. Once you get to his web site click on the link to download his tract on photographers' rights; I believe it is a pdf file. His tract applies to all photography not just railroad photography or train watching. I hope this helps.

I agree with you the police need to be educated about the rights of photographers (especially railfans photographing trains from public property), and the best way to do it is thru the mayor of the town, the local chief of police, the ACLU if necessary, or the news media.

If you are photogrphing a train from public properety, and a police officer tells you photographing trains is not legal, and to leave even if you are on public property, Leave! Don't argue! If you do,the police officer might try to charge you with some other crime.

P.S. I make sure I am on public property whenever I photograph trains, andso far I have yet to be told it is illegal to phtograph trains, or to leave.