Railfanning, Homeland Security, and what we can and cannot do...

[Murphy Siding]

Ed Blysard: Are you sure Colin Powell is eligable to run for president? I thought he wasn't a natural born citizen of the USA-being born in maybe Jamaica? For what it's worth, I read a lot of history, I just seem to remember less of the details.

[TimChgo9]

Since Allan apolgized, I won't go off on him.

[edblysard]

Powell was born a US Citizen, in New York, raised in the Bronx.
His parents are Jamaciam immigrants.
See
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/biog/1349.htm
for more info.
Very elegible to run for the office.

Ed

[Junctionfan]

Are you sure anybody can run for office as longs as they have been a U.S citizen for x amount of years?

[Anonymous]

I think that much as I hated Clinton....I still he'd a much better President after all.
Allan.

[Anonymous]

Check the Constitution: You'd have to be a BORN American citizen, not naturalized.

That's why Powell is eligible to run for President but Schwarzenegger isn't.

[Anonymous]

How wants to see Mrs Clinton in office? What the Hell is her name anyway.
Allan.

[Anonymous]

Note to Rudy from Rockville: I can't access the link you gave us:

www.krages.com/phoright.htm

Since I assume the attorney wasn't abducted by the Thought Police and sent to Gitmo, could you check this link and see if perhaps there is a newer or better one?

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by smalling_60626

Note to Rudy from Rockville: I can't access the link you gave us:

www.krages.com/phoright.htm

Since I assume the attorney wasn't abducted by the Thought Police and sent to Gitmo, could you check this link and see if perhaps there is a newer or better one?

Mighty bizarre, it just worked for me.

[chad thomas]

Works for me too.

[RudyRockvilleMD]

QUOTE: Originally posted by smalling_60626

Note to Rudy from Rockville: I can't access the link you gave us:

www.krages.com/phoright.htm

Since I assume the attorney wasn't abducted by the Thought Police and sent to Gitmo, could you check this link and see if perhaps there is a newer or better one?

I was also able to acess mr Krages' web site as listed. Once you access his web site you have to click on a link to download his photographer's rights flyer. The flyer is in a pdf fomat.

Rudy

[Anonymous]

Roger Wilco!

[Anonymous]

Things are not all bad. While I got marooned by United AL in Fargo ND in May I did some railfaning near and around the BNSF mainline. While taking some photos of the ore trains crossing beside the depot, a nice women came out from the depot and gave me her last 2005 Calendar[8D][tup]

[Anonymous]

I live in Flagstaff Az. and the BNSFs Canyon Diablo Bridge is about 30 miles east of town. Been gong out there all my life (40 yrs.) to watch the trains. In the last 4 yrs I have had 2 helicopters (one BNSF security, one AZ. DPS) land to ask what the hell I was doing, as well as several ground vehicles. I was outside the right of way fence on land that is actually The Navajo reservation. Once they knew what I was doing, and maybe just as important, That I knew what I was doing and knew my rights, they had no problem. And believe me the BeaNSnifF and the DOT worry about that big cantilever.

Roger

[chad thomas]

Wow!! That's a new one. I've never heard of anyone getting "Pulled over" by a hellicopter. It wasn't black was it? [(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D]

[Anonymous]

Actually the BeaNSnifF chopper was black with gold markings.
Roger

[jefelectric]

http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf

After playing around a little I found the link to the site.

[chad thomas]

Welcome to the board guys.[8D]

[alstom]

I say that the whole thing is messed up. So what if you're just taking pictures of trains. It's what railfans do. They're ridiculous[:(!]! I don't understand it. A similar situation happened to me twice, so I just forget those areas. So I have to say it's screwed up.

[nobullchitbids]

I agree that the confrontationists are using the wrong approach. However misguided, police officers are just trying to do a very trying job, and the reality is that there are security problems surrounding the nation's railroads. What, for example, would happen were someone to blow Altamont Tunnel? Shutting down a bottleneck like this well could disrupt much of the country, and U.P. would be derelict not to be concerned about that.

So, try to be a little understanding when railroad police choose to be a little nosy -- if you really are a U.P. fan, you have to be a little on the company's side.

Beyond that, what you are told is correct: From a public location (such as a public park), you have an absolute constitutional right to photograph just about anything you want, including trains and railroad equipment. If you are being hassled for doing this, the first thing to do is go to the chief of police and politely make it clear that you are prepared to exercise your rights and defend them if necessary. If you don't gain satisfaction and understanding there, the next two stops are the United States Attorney's Office and the ACLU -- police officers can be prosecuted criminally under 18 U.S.C. sec. 242 and civilly under 42 U.S.C. secs. 1983 & 1985 for willfully violating ones constitutional rights, so in the long run, you will win this one if you go about it in the right way.

Know the precedents which back you up: The ACLU has a number of books it has published re the rights of reporters and your right to government and other information; all of them are well supported with binding case precedents, including perhaps one which fits you to a "T." While quoting these to an offending officer probably would be a waste of time, at minimum you can save your own attorneys a lot of work by knowing up front where they should start looking (they'll respect you more for knowing that as well, and perhaps charge you less). Lawyers love cases where all they have to do is make a phone call, and that solves the problem.

Finally, when a police officer does interfere with your activities, do what you can to identify who he is -- get his badge number and his name if possible, or the number of his squad car. Say, "Do you have a credential? I would like to see it." After all, anyone and his mother can get a police badge -- are you even certain the offender was a policeman? You cannot make a complaint against somebody overstepping his authority unless you know who the person is or can identify him later. A Sec. 242 violation is an individual violation -- you would be suing the officer, not the department (unless as a matter of policy it were the department which was violating the law).

Know that, in this country, courts are not invested with the powers of gods and can decide only cases or controversies -- there has to be a real proceeding before them before they can rule on anything. You may see the day when you have to tell the officer that he is wrong and that you will continue your activities unless you are arrested, in which case there will be lots of litigation, most of it costing him. That, however, is the LAST thing you should do, not the first. Those who are advising you otherwise are being irresponsible.

[mandelswamp]

Currently, NYCRR Title 21.Chapter XXI - METROPOLITAN TRANSPORTATION AUTHORITY SUBCHAPTER D - RULES AND REGULATIONS GOVERNING THE CONDUCT AND SAFETY OF THE PUBLIC - Part 1050.
Rules Governing the Conduct and Safety of the Public in the Use of the Facilities of New York City Transit Authority and Manhattan and Bronx Surface Transit Operating Authority
Section 1050.9 Restricted areas and activities. Part C states:
Photography, filming or video recording in any facility or conveyance is permitted except that ancillary equipment such as lights, reflectors or tripods may not be used. Members of the press holding valid identification issued by the New York City Police Department are hereby authorized to use necessary ancillary equipment. All photographic activity must be conducted in accordance with the provision of these Rules.

Following the Madrid bombings, the MTA considered changing the code to forbid taking photos in the subways but there was enough of a public outcry that the MTA backed off. With the London bombings, things are tense and the MTA is again rethinking its position. There are now signs posted at NY bridges (including railroad ones) and tunnels that photography of such structures is outlawed.

When you consider all of the hazardous materials that trains transport, you can understand why authorities are jumpy about individuals photographing freight trains or even many railside industries. My suggestion would be to notify the PR of the railroad or industry and the local police and explain that you are a railfan who would like to take some photographs from plublic property at specific locations and ask them for permission. I believe that in most cases they will give you that permission and the railroad or industry workers and police patrols will be alerted to your possible presence and therefore won't be jumpy if they see you with a camera in hand. Stay away if you cannot get the permission.

[cttrr]

I am a CBS cameraman in Chicago, we are having the same type of problems at our jobs. I am in a slightly better position, in that when I stand my ground I keep rolling tape to get the whole exchange recorded, and we have lawyers on call to handle the problem if I get arrested (which I have not yet). I just recite "any object visible with the naked eye from a public place can be photographed". I do not ever inject opinion into the conversation only let the cops make illegal responses to my statement. I carry the photog. bill rights printed from the website quoted above with me at all times, both a paper copy and as a doc. in my palm pilot.

[Anonymous]

Unfortunately, The Patriot Act now superceeds our constitutional rights. This is the reason for the increased objectionable activities by the police. If rail fans want to challenge the abuse, in the name of "National Security," your efforts should be made at the legislative level. Also contact organizations like the NRHS, the NMRA, fan magazine publishers (like the fine people who run this site) and succintly show your support for some way rail fans can work within the system to be recognized as a friend of railroads and national security.

If we don't (as long as Towelheads build backpack bombs) our legal access to "The Free Show" is hereby terminated.

[Anonymous]

Sounds like we have lost the battle.
Allan.

[kicksvette]

For anybody harrassed in the Chicago area while railfanning, I would suggest contacting the Chicago Tribune. The Trib broke the original story about railfans being hassled while waiting for a retired loco earlier this year. The story resulted in Metra publicly announcing that trains are not off limits. I'm sure the Trib would enjoy a follow up story about this lunacy continuing.

Glad I wasn't hassled yesterday while enjoying Rochelle. Maybe they haven't realized that the Trains Webcam out there is really a terrorist plot.

[nobullchitbids]

First of all, "supersede" is not spelled: s-u-p-e-r-c-e-e-d. And no legislation, even an Act of Congress, "supersedes" genuinely asserted constitutional rights, whether they be asserted by "towelheads" (I assume you mean Moslems but perhaps include Hindis as well) or anyone else.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mandelswamp

There are now signs posted at NY bridges (including railroad ones) and tunnels that photography of such structures is outlawed.

This is a violation of your civil rights. Write to the ACLU about this.

Sincerely,
Daniel Parks

[Anonymous]

There is more hysteria than security in Homeland Security. It's amazing how far people, including professionals like law enforcement, will go despite their gross ignorance. We live is scarey times--and not all from terrorists.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cttrr

I am a CBS cameraman in Chicago, we are having the same type of problems at our jobs. I am in a slightly better position, in that when I stand my ground I keep rolling tape to get the whole exchange recorded, and we have lawyers on call to handle the problem if I get arrested (which I have not yet). I just recite "any object visible with the naked eye from a public place can be photographed". I do not ever inject opinion into the conversation only let the cops make illegal responses to my statement. I carry the photog. bill rights printed from the website quoted above with me at all times, both a paper copy and as a doc. in my palm pilot.

I also work at a CBS affiliate. So far, we have not run into major hassles when photographing chemical plants, railroads, and the like. I do have a state police-issued press ID, though.

My $0.02: First, make reasonably certain you're on public property. In other words, if the railroad has the area posted, don't go past the sign.

If even though you may be on public property peacefully railfanning, and a police officer comes up to you and starts asking questions, be polite. We're talking manners akin to what was the norm at grandma's house for Sunday dinner 50 years ago here. Being polite and nonconfrontational will reduce the stress factor for both of you.

Remind the officer politely that you have a right to take pictures, so long as it's not of any forbidden location, such as a military post. If he tells you you're on private property, ask him to point out where public property ends and private property begins. Be prepared to pack up and leave if the officer gets a power rush from his badge.

If, despite your best efforts, things get seriously ugly, go public. Beat on the local television stations' assignment desk or news director. Remind them that if you are restricted from taking pictures on public property, they might well be next. Railroads are pathetic at press relations; a blast of negative media coverage could persuade them to lighten up a bit.

Keep in mind the city police officers are human beings too, and would probably rather be anywhere except near the railroad tracks chasing railfans away. The Bull, though, is another matter entirely.

[Anonymous]

the situation in london twice lately has everybody extra jumpy right at the moment.
i expect it will settle down if there are no more immediate attacks. it was the same
after 9-11 in new york city. it's probably rougher in the bigger cities than elsewhere.
confrontations are nothing new, they have been going on for years. during the racial
crisis in alabama in the 50's, police were harder on railfans because they were jumpy
about everything and more prone to excess. crosstie