Railfanning, Homeland Security, and what we can and cannot do...

[chad thomas]

True, If it aint broke don't fix it.

[Anonymous]

To chrisBARailfan, with all due respect, what are you smoking? Were you at Washington Park watching trains? This is the only park near the station. I find it hard to believe you rousted for watching trains here without provocation and as the for the BNSF officer I find it hard to believe one was patroling in this area as I have never seen one here and there are plenty of city police and Union Station security to cover this area.

In regard to Downtown Airport, I often park at the south end near Executive Beechcraft, on Lou Holland Drive, at the public parking area to have lunch and never has anyone ever said anything to me.

The Air Show was cancelled primarily due to the extending of the runways and the construction associated with this project.

Adding to the paranoia of the day by making blanket statments is culpable. Are there individual instances of abuse of course and we can't access many of the places we once did, with that said, to create the impression that the Kansas City area is in lock down is acompletely unfair portrayal of the area.

While railfanning, I have been asked by police what I am doing and after explaining my activity I have been allowed to continue. I welcome their inquiries, as most likely they will see me often and I like to assure them I am not a problem for them.

Being questioned within reason is not out of line, it's their job, should you have a problem with this, perhaps you should stay at home and not ruin things for the rest of us.

Ford Simcox

[CSXrules4eva]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF4ever

I don't fault the police on the scene here--they have a job to do and often any misguided application of their policy is the result of orders from higher up. Not sure I agree with the earlier assessment about someone with a camera and scanner looking like an intelligence operative. Maybe a BAD intelligence operative. The pros--and you have to put Al Qaida in that class--do their surveillance far more discretely. I'm sure the sight of someone taking photos or listening to a scanner can get a 911 caller worked up but the reality is that the really good people doing reconnaissance will never be noticed or will be ignored if they are.

Eveytime I go to my local train watching locations which are allong the NEC, and allong the NS Harrisburg Division in PA, I always have my scanner on, maybe in my back pocket or something., and I have little paper pads and a pen, and lastly I have the camera. I don't get harrased too much in there locations. The main question I get from people is "Do you work for the railroad?" Pretty interesting huh?? I had one engineer come up to me and ask me was I a trainmaster. I personally didn't think I looked like one. lol So far I haven't ran into too much disturbance from police, except in the South Philly area around Greenwhich Yard in South Philly. So I tend not to go there anymore since, the police are going to be jerks about it.

[ChrisBARailfan]

I was indeed talking about Washington Park, I was at the east end parked near the exit from under Union Station, I was out of my vehicle and was standing by the wall. The first contact I had was with a KCPD officer, he and I conversed for several minutes. As he walked on foot through the park he told me to have fun and be safe. Minutes later a BNSF Police explorer parked behind my vehicle and that is when I was asked to leave. I have watched movements from Washington Park and the Union Station parking lot for months with no problems.

I will be honest that I rarely watch planes at Wheeler Downtown airport, but you notice that the spot on the west side where you could park is gone. It was closed prior to construction and according to aviation workers will not be coming back. I however work during the day and do most watching in late evening or night. For years I sat on the I-29 outer road on the south side of the airport along the flight path in the gravel that runs along the outer road. Now signs have been posted along both outer roads advised no stopping is permitted. I have been asked to leave that spot by both MHP and Airport police due to security concerns.

As for the Air Show construction cancelled this years show and next years I believe, but after that "security and scheduling concerns" will dictate if the airshow returns. That was from the Kansas City Star from several weeks ago.

I am not being alarmist in saying that I believe that Kansas City and other local authorities have used "security concerns" to accomplish goals that before they could not have and once a freedom is taken it is rarely returned.

[88gta350]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ChrisBARailfan

and once a freedom is taken it is rarely returned.

That much at least is true.

[railfan619]

Sometimes I wonder about what is safe and what is not but like some of the. Other people that have written on this one you should get a bunch of friends and even the media to come over with you and then have some one call the police and see how fast they come a runnin I betcha not even one squad will even show up. Or if they do show offer them some dougnuts form Dunken Doughnuts [(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D]

[Anonymous]

A friend of mine was out in Oak Park (IL) shooting where the Chicago L and the UP West Line run parallel. A Metra bull ordered him off the property. My friend protested that "he was on public property" and the cop said "You're on METRA property."

How are we supposed to treat these quasi-governmental, quasi-private, quasi-public agencies. Sounds to me like the cop got out of hand but what is the average person minding his own business to do if he doesn't want to wind up with an ACLU lawyer or launch a false arrest/malicious prosecution suit?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by smalling_60626

A friend of mine was out in Oak Park (IL) shooting where the Chicago L and the UP West Line run parallel. A Metra bull ordered him off the property. My friend protested that "he was on public property" and the cop said "You're on METRA property."

How are we supposed to treat these quasi-governmental, quasi-private, quasi-public agencies. Sounds to me like the cop got out of hand but what is the average person minding his own business to do if he doesn't want to wind up with an ACLU lawyer or launch a false arrest/malicious prosecution suit?

Abuse of power.....power hungry! Shall I go on?

[TimChgo9]

Okay folks..... quit the cop bashing, okay? They enforce the laws, and they have a dirty, nasty job dealing with the dregs of humanity on a daily basis. It's a job that 95% of you here wouldn't do, It's a job I wouldn't do. And, this is NOT an insult to any of you, it is just the fact, would any of you want to do that job? BUT, that said, lay off the cops. they are only doing their job. My incident was the first time in 10 years I have ever been harrased, or sent away. I know with all of the terrorism crap out there, everyone is nervous, and everyone is a little more vigilant... what has to be done is a stop to all of the conjecture, and find out if indeed our railfanning actvities are illegal. The "guessing game" needs to stop.

As far as I am concerned, I will still be out there shooting pictures. I am not too worried at this point. I am just going to be more careful, and stay on public property, and only frequent the places that I know I won't be bothered.

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan.

Abuse of power.....power hungry! Shall I go on?

Please do.....I'm sure you've got years of experience to draw from..................power hungry???

been to Mexico lately?
How about Italy or France, any of the African countries..........puhleese......grow up.

[Junctionfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TimChgo9

Okay folks..... quit the cop bashing, okay? They enforce the laws, and they have a dirty, nasty job dealing with the dregs of humanity on a daily basis. It's a job that 95% of you here wouldn't do, It's a job I wouldn't do. And, this is NOT an insult to any of you, it is just the fact, would any of you want to do that job? BUT, that said, lay off the cops. they are only doing their job. My incident was the first time in 10 years I have ever been harrased, or sent away. I know with all of the terrorism crap out there, everyone is nervous, and everyone is a little more vigilant... what has to be done is a stop to all of the conjecture, and find out if indeed our railfanning actvities are illegal. The "guessing game" needs to stop.

As far as I am concerned, I will still be out there shooting pictures. I am not too worried at this point. I am just going to be more careful, and stay on public property, and only frequent the places that I know I won't be bothered.

I wouldn't mind being a cop at all. With the training I recieved, I would know the difference between a dreg of society or a suspicious possible terrorist (with bulletins from Dept. Homeland Security) and a tourist; especially if I wasn't a rookie and had the first-hand experience to "know the streets".

[miniwyo]

I hope when I become a cop (Approx. 1.5 years) I will try to raise awareness to our hobby, and to hopefully change things.

[ericsp]

Just be glad you are not a beetle.
http://www.cdfa.ca.gov/

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ericsp

Just be glad you are not a beetle.
http://www.cdfa.ca.gov/

He does look a bit shifty......bet those antennae are really receivers............

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

QUOTE: Originally posted by ericsp

Just be glad you are not a beetle.
http://www.cdfa.ca.gov/

He does look a bit shifty......bet those antennae are really receivers............

For listening to the railroads' radio channels no doubt. I would not want to be him when he gets arrested down by the tracks. He might "accidentally" get stepped on.

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ericsp

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

QUOTE: Originally posted by ericsp

Just be glad you are not a beetle.
http://www.cdfa.ca.gov/

He does look a bit shifty......bet those antennae are really receivers............

For listening to the railroads' radio channels no doubt. I would not want to be him when he gets arrested down by the tracks. He might "accidentally" get stepped on.

No doubt......truly fearful of the boot of oppression.....

[Chris30]

There have been similar previous posts on this subject. Since I'm familar with the town and the area that TimChgo9 was at (see original post on this subject), I'll add my [2c].

Based on Tim's description, I think that he might have been on private property-UP property. Tim, please clarify. Were you on the north or south side of the tracks? Because of the location and the amount of rail traffic, the UP generally does not want you on their property in the area. I know you're upset about it, but the railroad is looking out for you and your safety. Not to mention their own liability. How many other posts are there on this forum referencing accidents where an individual might be at fault, but the railroad is held liable?? I used to live in Elmhurst for ten years and the police officers in that town have always been very freindly. From my casual observance, the Elmhurst police department has a policy to send as many officers/units to a call that are available. I'm guessing the Elmhurst PD got a call from the UP about a trespasser and no UP police available to assist. They don't know what they're dealing with until they get there. Better to have more resources available, than less. Now, Tim if you were on the UP property and they want you off their property, the police have no other choice than to ask you to leave (only pertains to the UP property). If you don't wi***o leave private property, then they have the right to remove you (usually means you're going for a ride downtown kid [;)]). Did you ask the Elmhurst police if you were on the UP property? Did you ask the police if you could move somewhere else?

I'm going to say this as best that I can.... DON'T TREAT THE POLICE LIKE THE ENEMY!!! There doing their job to protect you (believe it or not). Yes, there are good cops, and there are bad cops. They're not robots... you have to deal with the human element. Be PROACTIVE!!! If you're out railfanning (taking photos) and you see the railroad police, don't be afraid to approach them. They might be busy, but usually they appreciate you coming to them (a sign of respect). Be freindly and let them know who you are and what you would like to do. Ask them if it's ok to take photos from a certain location. Don't forget to get a name in case you are approached later by somebody else. Once the railroad police know who you are and what you're doing, they're not as likely to treat you as a threat. If you get approached by somebody who works for the railroad, same thing, be freindly and ask good questions. Don't get upset.

The number thing on any railroader minds these days is safety (or at least it should be). If any employee of a railroad believes you're compromising anybody's safety (including your own) they have the right to ask you to leave or move to another location. Even if you're on public property, show some respect and move. Don't argue with somebody who works for the railroad when you don't. As for dealing with the police on public property and photos being illegal.... that's a touchy subject and depends on the reaction of the poilce. Taking a picture in most cases is not illegal.

I've said too much,
CC

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TimChgo9

Okay folks..... quit the cop bashing, okay? They enforce the laws, and they have a dirty, nasty job dealing with the dregs of humanity on a daily basis. It's a job that 95% of you here wouldn't do, It's a job I wouldn't do. And, this is NOT an insult to any of you, it is just the fact, would any of you want to do that job? BUT, that said, lay off the cops. they are only doing their job. My incident was the first time in 10 years I have ever been harrased, or sent away. I know with all of the terrorism crap out there, everyone is nervous, and everyone is a little more vigilant... what has to be done is a stop to all of the conjecture, and find out if indeed our railfanning actvities are illegal. The "guessing game" needs to stop.

As far as I am concerned, I will still be out there shooting pictures. I am not too worried at this point. I am just going to be more careful, and stay on public property, and only frequent the places that I know I won't be bothered.

While I agree with what you say, there is one implication that maybe we are overlooking: Since many cops spend most of their days dealing with pond scum, I suspect that some may develop a distorted view of the public and can begin to assume that ALL civilians are like the tra***hat they have to keep arresting and dragging off to the jail house. And, not all cops are good guys. Texas just had a case where a rogue cop perjured about 35 African Americans from Tulia into prison on drug charges, and some Dallas officers were found to have use ground-up gypsum wall board for "evidence" in drug dealing cases. Cops are like other humans: Some are good, some are bad, and some of the good ones will turn a blind eye to the shenanigans of the bad ones. And, even some of the good ones can have a bad day. My advise is to not mouth off to a cop, even if you are in the right. Getting mouthy with a cop is a good way to go to jail on a trumped-up charge, when what is really involved is "Contempt of Cop."

[tree68]

And don't forget - the folks around Rochelle (now a well-known supporter of railfans, with the park and all) at first couldn't understand why people would come and sit in their cars at the diamond. We're a strange breed, us railfans.

Knowing exactly what is public and what is private property can be an iffy proposition. Despite the fact that the public may use a given area on a regular basis (say, the parking lot of a retail store), the property may indeed be private. In the case described, the property may be the railroads - even though there is nothing there to indicate so and the public regularly uses it.

About your only defense in court (if you were arrested) might be that due to the property owner allowing uncontrolled public access on a regular basis, you had every reason to believe that you were not trespassing on restricted space. Even grocery stores often have "no loitering" signs though, not to mention local ordinances to that effect.

[Anonymous]

Hey I like being a weard Railfan. At least it lets others know that I like Trains.
Allan.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ChrisBARailfan

I was indeed talking about Washington Park, I was at the east end parked near the exit from under Union Station, I was out of my vehicle and was standing by the wall. The first contact I had was with a KCPD officer, he and I conversed for several minutes. As he walked on foot through the park he told me to have fun and be safe. Minutes later a BNSF Police explorer parked behind my vehicle and that is when I was asked to leave. I have watched movements from Washington Park and the Union Station parking lot for months with no problems.

I will be honest that I rarely watch planes at Wheeler Downtown airport, but you notice that the spot on the west side where you could park is gone. It was closed prior to construction and according to aviation workers will not be coming back. I however work during the day and do most watching in late evening or night. For years I sat on the I-29 outer road on the south side of the airport along the flight path in the gravel that runs along the outer road. Now signs have been posted along both outer roads advised no stopping is permitted. I have been asked to leave that spot by both MHP and Airport police due to security concerns.

As for the Air Show construction cancelled this years show and next years I believe, but after that "security and scheduling concerns" will dictate if the airshow returns. That was from the Kansas City Star from several weeks ago.

I am not being alarmist in saying that I believe that Kansas City and other local authorities have used "security concerns" to accomplish goals that before they could not have and once a freedom is taken it is rarely returned.

You were not on public property if you were parked below the station and not in Washington Park , no wonder you were asked to leave. I'm sure you wanted to park in the shade but this is not the place to do this.

You misstated your situation then made some general statements to support your
theory. Yes the west side parking area at Downtown Airport is probably gone for good,
I too will miss it, that's just the way it is, park on the south end.

As for MCI, do you really expect the police to allow anyone to sit anywhere around the airport unattended? I agree we are harmless in what we do, however get use to the fact
things will never be the same, Over all we haven't loss that many spots .

It is unfortunate your work forces you to fan at night, one has to expect some scrutiny
while out after dark, 911 aside, there are still crime issues to be addressed.

I'm not for giving in and allowing myself to be steamrolled, nor should you,yet a certain amount of change will have to be accepted and taking a few isolated events and making them into a call to arms to defend our freedoms is a bit much.

I railfan, watch the planes and hunt for benchmarks all of which attract attention, I feel
no great loss of my freedoms over and above the expected at this time.

I believe I get out as much as any one around here and I miss the old spots, many of which I shouldn't have been at in the first place, ( I believe it's called trespassing?)
Now I just have to remember the good old days and enjoy what we currently have,or else
I should stay at home.

I wasted more time on this than is necessary, point is for all of you get some perspective on things, cut the dramatics, if things get worse we can all speak up, we're not there yet.

P.S. Can't believe on one mentioned "The Patriot Act" and how It caused the loss of all our freedoms. ( It didn't you know)

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan.

All because of 4 I said FOUR MUSLAMS that caused the 9/11 is why we true white americans have lost our freedoms forever.

So, are you saying everyone on here is white? Or that Americans of other colors are not true Americans? We've listened to your rantings about our country long enough, Allan, this time you've gone too far.

mike

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan.

All because of 4 I said FOUR MUSLAMS that caused the 9/11 is why we true white americans have lost our freedoms forever.

Nice.....

I see your open mind extends beyond your opinion of law enforcement.......

It was members of Al Queda (19 not 4). Their religion or ethnicity is irrelevant.

BTW..if you are going to head this route, at least have the courtesy to spell the religion correctly. Adds a bit (not much mind you) of credibility to your case.

As far as true white Amercians...you mean like Colin Powell, Jackie Robinson, Dr Martin Luther King, Denzel Washington (who just paid a bunch of cash for a home to house families of combat wounded servicemen during recovery)....true white Americans like those.......and others......many of whom paid the ultimate sacrifice for you to spew drivel........

Son...you need some reality......maybe you need to lay off the trains and focus on the history for awhile.....[:(!]


Talk about ..."Grossly Dishonoring the American Flag"!!!!

[ericsp]

Those of you who say we have lost freedoms because of the Patriot Act, could you please list them? What I see here is that there are some police officers who are not clear on the laws enacted since 09/11/2001, while others (appearently where I railfan at) are do appear to be clear.

Why is there just now all of this concern about losing freedoms? I remember back in the early or mid 1990s a farm who accidentally ran over an endangered species on his farmer was arrested. In California, if somone wants to open a bar, restaurant, et cetera and allow smoking that person is not allowed to do so. What abouth the Supreme Court saying that governments can take our properties to sell to a developer? It is a good thing to try to keep government reigned in. Just doing so in one area does not do much good.

Just complaining on a forum does no good eighter. What about sending a letter expressing your concern about these incidents to something like the International Association of Police Chiefs (http://www.theiacp.org/) or some other similar organizations and your elected representatives?

[Anonymous]

Ronald Reagan was SO right: "Any government big enough to give you want you want is big enough to take it away."

I'm sure most civil libertarians would see a restriction on domestic rwy photography, an expansion of the tenets of "imminent domain" to include private taking of private property, and the fact that Congress bent over backward today to GIVE the FBI the right to delve into public library records WITHOUT WARRANT AND IN FACT IN SECRET IF THEY FEEL NECESSARY -- all of these are abridgements of our freedom.

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by smalling_60626

Ronald Reagan was SO right: "Any government big enough to give you want you want is big enough to take it away."

I'm sure most civil libertarians would see a restriction on domestic rwy photography, an expansion of the tenets of "imminent domain" to include private taking of private property, and the fact that Congress bent over backward today to GIVE the FBI the right to delve into public library records WITHOUT WARRANT AND IN FACT IN SECRET IF THEY FEEL NECESSARY -- all of these are abridgements of our freedom.

President Reagan was also right when he said that government is the problem, not the solution. I will agree that some parts of the Patriot Act that involve search warrents probably need to be changed. However, none of the complaints I have seen here have anything to do with that.

[edblysard]

Allan,
Define "true white Americans" for me, please....

I was under the impression that being an American was a nationality, as opposed to a specific race or species.

As Dan pointed out, Americans of other colors have and still do contribute greatly to this country.

Tuskegee Fighter group, WWII, escorted Allied Bombers into Germany, with zero loses of bombers to enemy fighters.

No other fighter group can make that claim.

Elijah McCoy, inventory of one of the best automatic oiling mechanisms for locomotives, and for whom the phrase “the real McCoy” is credited….by the way, the oil pump in your automobile is a direct descendent of his invention, his family holds several patents on many industrial machines still in use today.

How about Juan Seguin, Mexican land owner in Texas, who supplied troops to General Sam Houston, and provided food, shelter and arms to some of the defenders of the Alamo as they made their way to San Antonio.(although in Seguin’s case, he was more concerned in building an independent Texas than becoming part of America)

Colin Powell, who, if we are lucky, will become the first black US President.

Thurgood Marshall, Black US Supreme Court Justice, who defended your right to be a racist, because he defended your right to privacy, your civil rights, your first amendment rights, and won the majority of the court over in the concept of stopping double jeopardy, which prevents you from being tried twice for the same crime.

Your implication of true “Americans” as being white is silly, at best, and raciest at the least.

I doubt that you could find any ethnic group that hasn’t contributed some major achievement to the America way of life.

We are a nation made up of concepts and laws, not races or religions.

And America only works when we apply all of our laws to all of our citizens equally, and apply the same laws and concepts to all others as well.

I have several Muslim friends, and the one thing that strikes me as setting their religion apart from most others is the tolerance that it teaches.

Those that follow the faith of Islam are taught from the first that all paths lead to God, and that each person should be allowed to follow their own path.

If that path happens to follow the Muslim traditions, fine, and if it doesn’t, that’s fine too.

Find anything like that in most of your western religions?

I haven’t, at least not yet.

The fanatics responsible for 9/11, and the London bombings, hide behind their religion, what they are truly after is the political power.

Their agenda included racial and religious cleansing, total control over their small part of the world.

They are so far removed from the real tenants of Islam that even their fellow country men are beginning to despise them as rabid racial and religious fanatics, and this is in a part of the world where being a devout religious follower is the norm.

They espouse the concept that they are the “true Muslims” and that all others are infidels, not worthy of life…

Sound familiar?

After all, if you change the word Muslim to the word White….

Thinking like that is what caused this horror in the first place, so I suggest you go take a hard look the mirror, and decide if your statement concerning “true white Americans” is something you want to put out there in the public view.

If it is, then you just placed yourself into the same category as the terrorist, as a narrow minded racist fanatic.

Ed

[Junctionfan]

I didn't know the Klan had a chapter in Nebraska......learn something new everyday.[V]

[Anonymous]

Sorry I wasn't thinking when I typed that guys.I am very sorry.
Allan.

[Anonymous]

I'll forgive you this time but Allan, REALLY . . . !