Railfanning, Homeland Security, and what we can and cannot do...

[TimChgo9]

I know this topic comes up from time to time. Now, I am not going to get alarmist here, because I honestly don' t know what the truth is or not.

Last night, I was out at the west end of UP's Proviso Yard. Westbound trains leave the yard in the town of Elmhurst. Now, I was in a public park last night, taking pictures with my son. I chose this location, because of the accessiblity to the spur that comes off the Geneva sub right before the entrance to Proviso, and curves north to Yard #9, and trains using this spur access the Kenosha Sub from here. So, it's a great place to shoot photos of the coal trains that use this spur. Now, I was minding my own business last night, when, around 8:15 and Elmhurst police officer showed up, and sent us on our way. Not wanting to raise the ire of the officer, I left. He told me that I cannot shoot pictures, because it is illegal, I was trespassing, and I did not have the railroad's permission. Instead of arguing with the officer I left. As I turned to leave, and walk along through the park to get to my car, I noticed an additional squad in the lot, as well as a Supervisor outside the entrance to the park. that's a bit too much manpower for just a couple of railfans.

I work in law enforcement, I am a 911 operator, and I have lots of contact with police officers. So, I decided to check with a couple of the officers that I work with and see what they had to say. I was told from the watch commander on down, that because of the new Homeland Security laws, photographing trains is illegal. I couldn't get much more clarification than that.

Now, I am confused. The lastest Trains magazine, the editorial on the first page, titled "Dear Police Chief" indicates that it is NOT illegal to photograph trains, and I have heard the same thing echoed by other people that I know, including my best friend's brother who works for the Union Pacific.

Which one is it? Because my watch commander (who is a really good guy) is almost certain that it is illegal. Now, what ever the case is (I tend to think it is still within our rights to railfan if we so desire) someone needs to clarify. This kind of confusion is only going to increase tension between railfans, and police officers. Because if there is some misinformation out there, it needs to be cleared up, because I don't feel like going out to pursue my hobby, if all I am going to get is harrasment. And if there are law enforcment officers out there acting on this misinformation, then someone needs to get them the message.

[edblysard]

Unless your watch comander can show you where the US Constitution has been declared as set aside by the US Supreme Court...(and they cant even do that) your watch commander and everyone you talked to is wrong.

Take a copy of that editorial to him or her...and talk to your local District Attorney, or the US Attorney for your district.

UTAH PHONE FAX
Paul M. Warner, USA*
185 South State Street, Suite 400, Salt Lake City 84111 [phone] [phone]

Ask him!

Ed

[Anonymous]

So what you are saying edblysard, Is that Taking Photo's of Trains is legal. Right?
Allan.

[edblysard]

Yes, it is.
Or are you implying that Eric and Mike, from Trains magazine, along with the thousand of other photographers that take train photos every day, are breaking “the law”?

Ignorance of your basic rights and ignorance of the law by law enforcement officials is stupid.
Haven’t you been paying attention?
If you are on public property, you can take all the photos of just about anything you want too, period..
Some military bases, and certain nuclear facilities, are off limits, but anything BNSF, UP and all the class 1s run are free game if you are on public property.
Now, on their private property, you need their permission.



You quit, they win.
Ed

[ericsp]

The location where I railfan is close to a city police substation and a CHP station. It is rare when a few police cars do not pass me while railfanning. The only time any stopped was when one CHP officer stopped to ask if my vehicle broke down. I said no and thanked him for stopping, then he left. Yes, I have photographed trains when a police car was driving down the road.

[Anonymous]

Jeez guys, we keep going over and over and over this subject. Stay on public property and you're fine.
mike

[Anonymous]

Ok Ok......Ill take your word for it.

[BNSF4ever]

I'll say it again--if local law enforcement or transit/railroad police believe that terrorists are relying on railfans to gather reconnaissance they are sadly mistaken. The terrorists have already done their research as we have found from captured documents found in Afghanistan and elsewhere.

[peterjenkinson1956]

hello tim... why dont you become a rebel and go back there with lots of your friend and maybe some members of the media... i am sure a discrete phone call to the local police will have them racing over there to round up the terrorists.. sounds like the sort of stuff the black people in the 60,s had to deal with and they won against the police by using the media... ( dont let them kick you out of there )....peter

[RudyRockvilleMD]

Tim: This sounds like a replay of the recent Morton Grove incident. You are totally right on all counts especially to leave since who knows the cop could have trumped up a charge. Since you are employed by your town's local policedepartment there probaly isn't too much you can do for fear of retailiation. I like Ed Blylsard's approach work through your local district attorney or possibly the state's attorney for your county. Another possibility, and perhaps better, contact your local ACLU or even your local newspaper. You might also contact another web site, www.photopermit.org.

As for photographers' rights I suggest you download a brochure on photographers rights which was written by Bert KragesII who is an attorney who deals in intellectual property in Portland Oregon. His website is www.krages.com/phoright.htm. I am retired from the U.S. government, and I used to work as an engineer and a manager in a defense lab, so I know there are no laws against photographing anything in the public domain from public property unless there is an identifiable strategic defense installation or nuclear facility in the nearby background.

Jim Wrinn's editorial in the august, 2005 Trains about cops getting to know and understand railfans better is excellent. I hope a copy is sent to the chief of your police department who needs to be educated.

Rudy

[ChrisBARailfan]

It is more than just the local police though. Just last night I was railfanning (without a camera) in a Kansas City park that overlooks the entrance to Union Station and the BNSF Transcon when a BNSF Police Officer informed me that I was now restricted from observing train movements by order of the DHS. I complied and left, but as I was leaving I was advised that I would be detained for questioning and possibly arrested if I was stopped again.

It is getting worse and worse every day that I must give up more freedoms in the name of terrorism. I apologize the New Yorkers but I am much more likely to get killed by a street hood than a terrorist. At Kansas City International Airport and Wheeler Downtown airport you can no longer stop and look at or photograph planes, the airport police will confiscate the film, and the Kansas City Airshow was cancelled in part due to security concerns, what next? I feel like they already have won.

[miniwyo]

I was stopped earlier this evening for standing outside my local MR club watching a train before I left for the night, the cop told me it was private property and I was loitering, nothing about the camera I had in my hand, which was at one point in time in his sight pointed at a train. I just explained to him that i was a member of the club and was allowed to be there and he understood and left.

[miniwyo]

I was stopped earlier this evening for standing outside my local MR club watching a train before I left for the night, the cop told me it was private property and I was loitering, nothing about the camera I had in my hand, which was at one point in time in his sight pointed at a train. I just explained to him that i was a member of the club and was allowed to be there and he understood and left.

[Anonymous]

this hole thing has gotten out of hand this is just the govermets way to try to control us [:(!] we pay taxes and should be allowed to get pics of trains as long as your not tresspassing.i would have stood up for my right to do so . i would go to the same spot over and over just to let them know there not scareing me. and i would try to get other people to do the same and maybe the media if they are intrested. we the people of the us are letting the goverment take our freedum because of some terrorists. we need to let them know we wont stand for by litters to you local news paper and goverment officals


sorry about spelling i know it sucks [:(]

[peterjenkinson1956]

the cops know when it is against the law to stop someone for steeling a car or being a rapist or killing someone.... however they do not have a clue what to do when they have a situation that they have no knowedge of but they can control it by calling your bluff... if you laydown and let some one kick you then dont complain when they kick you harder next time... instead of complaining to a forum (no insult intended ) use the forum ...organise the train fans and members of this forum to gather at places where people have been arrested or harrased by the cops ... if the readers of trains magazine cannot get together to organise a public showing of streanth and show the cops that they should not harras people who are going about their lives and doing something that i am sure no terrorist would ever do.. americans.. please stand up for yourselfs so that the next time i come to your wonderful country i dont get arrested for telling a cop to "go far off" thanks peter

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by EMT49

this hole thing has gotten out of hand this is just the govermets way to try to control us [:(!] we pay taxes and should be allowed to get pics of trains as long as your not tresspassing.i would have stood up for my right to do so . i would go to the same spot over and over just to let them know there not scareing me. and i would try to get other people to do the same and maybe the media if they are intrested. we the people of the us are letting the goverment take our freedum because of some terrorists. we need to let them know we wont stand for by litters to you local news paper and goverment officals


sorry about spelling i know it sucks [:(]

I know where you are coming from.....I my self am about to give up Railfanning forever!. The Terrorists have won in this chicken *** nation. And so for the fat cops in this nation too. And I stand behind my words too. Cops have better thing to do that go chasing away some God D*mn Railfan,Why don't they go crack down on the METH in this country. Allan.

[Junctionfan]

This is getting way out there. What the heck is going on with the law enforcement everywhere because it isn't just the U.S that has bouts of law forgetfulness.

I think CNN, ABC, CBC,CBS and many others need to do a story about railfans and dispel some of the lies and negative attitude that has been conjured up by a bunch of hysterics and paranoia.......rediculous.

[Anonymous]

Sounds like the cops are a bunch of Barney Fife morons that get a good deal excitment over the amount of power they must enforce. Must be the local Doughnut huts daily offerings were stale and they decided its better to mess with a guy taking pictures of trains rather than searching out any real crime that may require them to fill out paper work.

[chad thomas]

[censored] THAT !!!!!!!! Don't back down. I would have left the scene and immediatly started climbing the chain of command untill I got to someone that would straighten these boys out. And involving the media might not be a bad idea either. Those guys eat that stuff up. Now I understand in TimChgo9 could have a lot more at risk because of his job, so for him it's a little different. As for the rest of us STAND YOUR GROUND!!!!!
IF YOU DON'T THEY WIN !!!!!!!

[dharmon]

Okay gents......time to throttle back a bit. First of all Tim, you did the right thing. Diffuse the situation and seek answers in a non-combative method.

There is alot of confusion regarding what can and can't be done, and that extends to the law enforcement communites. And when in doubt, they are probably going to default to telling you not to do it. Ed gave some good advice, and I'd present what I found out to the watch supervisor and take it from there. No cop wants to be the guy that let the next London, 9/11 or OKC happen again.

So if you see someone taking pictures of a railyard, the natural presumption would be that they were a railfan....right? But what if they were middle eastern or Chinese and taking pictures of a railyard or station? What if they were taking pictures of an airport or an aircraft carrier...from public property? Would you be suspicious then? How about your house? (Anybody have a home appraised lately or a nosy home owners association?) Folks are quick to say stupid cops, barney fife, etc...but these folks are trying to do a job, often with less than perfect guidance and to them a railfan (hmm guy with camera, maybe a map, notebook, scanner) taking pictures of a potential target looks exactly like what he is .......an intelligence operative. Because at the basic level that is what a railfan is...an intelligence collector ...observing, noting, and recording data....albeit for personal vice government use. So maybe, just maybe, you could cut these guys some slack and do as Tim did. You want to beat the terrorists, yeah don't give in, but do it by helping the good guys do their job better, not by being a childish***and adding fuel to the fire or there really will be problems....

Tim you're off to a good start. There's some good (and bad) advice offered above.

Dan

[88gta350]

Next time you're stopped for railfanning, simply ask the officer to show you where in the crimes code it states that photographing trains from public property is illegal. They all should be carrying copies of the crimes code and vehicle code with them, so just ask to see the law. That should do a lot to end the situation right there. Cops get daily bullitens and such about BOLOs (Be On the Lookout) and confuse them with actual enacted laws. You can drive up to the front gate of my nuclear power plant and start snapping pictures all you want. As long as you don't cross the property line, there's not a darn thing I can do about it. We can call the state police to come scare you off, or question you, but the taking of the pictures by itself is not illegal.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

Okay gents......time to throttle back a bit. First of all Tim, you did the right thing. Diffuse the situation and seek answers in a non-combative method.

There is alot of confusion regarding what can and can't be done, and that extends to the law enforcement communites. And when in doubt, they are probably going to default to telling you not to do it. Ed gave some good advice, and I'd present what I found out to the watch supervisor and take it from there. No cop wants to be the guy that let the next London, 9/11 or OKC happen again.

So if you see someone taking pictures of a railyard, the natural presumption would be that they were a railfan....right? But what if they were middle eastern or Chinese and taking pictures of a railyard or station? What if they were taking pictures of an airport or an aircraft carrier...from public property? Would you be suspicious then? How about your house? (Anybody have a home appraised lately or a nosy home owners association?) Folks are quick to say stupid cops, barney fife, etc...but these folks are trying to do a job, often with less than perfect guidance and to them a railfan (hmm guy with camera, maybe a map, notebook, scanner) taking pictures of a potential target looks exactly like what he is .......an intelligence operative. Because at the basic level that is what a railfan is...an intelligence collector ...observing, noting, and recording data....albeit for personal vice government use. So maybe, just maybe, you could cut these guys some slack and do as Tim did. You want to beat the terrorists, yeah don't give in, but do it by helping the good guys do their job better, not by being a childish***and adding fuel to the fire or there really will be problems....

Tim you're off to a good start. There's some good (and bad) advice offered above.

Dan

Thank you Dan, for a little common sense and sanity.

mike

[chad thomas]

I wasn't very clear in my previous post. I don't mean get hostile with the cops. Just don't let them get away with it. Talk to there boss. And if that don't work talk to there bosses boss. So on and so on.

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mehrlich

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

Okay gents......time to throttle back a bit. First of all Tim, you did the right thing. Diffuse the situation and seek answers in a non-combative method.

There is alot of confusion regarding what can and can't be done, and that extends to the law enforcement communites. And when in doubt, they are probably going to default to telling you not to do it. Ed gave some good advice, and I'd present what I found out to the watch supervisor and take it from there. No cop wants to be the guy that let the next London, 9/11 or OKC happen again.

So if you see someone taking pictures of a railyard, the natural presumption would be that they were a railfan....right? But what if they were middle eastern or Chinese and taking pictures of a railyard or station? What if they were taking pictures of an airport or an aircraft carrier...from public property? Would you be suspicious then? How about your house? (Anybody have a home appraised lately or a nosy home owners association?) Folks are quick to say stupid cops, barney fife, etc...but these folks are trying to do a job, often with less than perfect guidance and to them a railfan (hmm guy with camera, maybe a map, notebook, scanner) taking pictures of a potential target looks exactly like what he is .......an intelligence operative. Because at the basic level that is what a railfan is...an intelligence collector ...observing, noting, and recording data....albeit for personal vice government use. So maybe, just maybe, you could cut these guys some slack and do as Tim did. You want to beat the terrorists, yeah don't give in, but do it by helping the good guys do their job better, not by being a childish***and adding fuel to the fire or there really will be problems....

Tim you're off to a good start. There's some good (and bad) advice offered above.

Dan

Thank you Dan, for a little common sense and sanity.

mike

Thanks Mike......

Just a couple of other thoughts.....

First, I am huge believer in the constitution and civil rights, and although not perfect it's the best around. It only stays the best by jelously guarding the ideals that framed it. I'm not espousing anybody roll over and take it, if it's wrong. But there are ways to achieve and end, and arguing with one cop is not going to change things and only result in an unpeasant opportunity to expand one's cultural horizons while sitting in lockup. Unless you truly want to press the system, go to jail, go to court, then find an attorney to take it up the court system for you (I don't have the time myself or desire to have a jailhouse affair), then the educational approach working with the law enforcement folks is best. If that fails, we all have elected representatives at differing levels of local, state and federal government. There is a pendulum swing that occurs in political world of event, over-reaction, corrective action, back to middle. Sometimes it takes a little shove to get back to middle............take it for what it's worth.


BTW...for those of you that haven't travelled outside the US, we have it real, REAL good here....

Dan

[tree68]

I have sevaral copies of the editorial, and appropriate cover letters, ready to send to our local police chief, sheriff, and even the state police zone commander. I haven't sent them yet because we are currently dealing with another photo issue - people who take digital pictures at accidents and similar events, often with camera phones, and send them to the media, particularly a local news website. There have been times when the pictures hit the web almost before emergency responders arrived on the scene. There are issues of privacy and crime investigation involved, and it only promises to get messier.

I also still have them on the table at home because I don't know that we've had a problem here yet - and I don't want to trigger one.

As with most issues, and as has already been said very well, education is the answer. Law enforcement is being deluged with information about threats, real and imagined, not to mention the stuff they have to deal with everyday besides. We have the potential to be just one more thorn in their sides unless they know who we are and why we are what we are. A cop just coming off a messy domestic violence call isn't in the mood to listen to somebody spout off their rights - all they know is they got a call for a suspicious person and there is something on the clipboard back at headquarters about threats to rail facilities. You do the math.

[BNSF4ever]

I don't fault the police on the scene here--they have a job to do and often any misguided application of their policy is the result of orders from higher up. Not sure I agree with the earlier assessment about someone with a camera and scanner looking like an intelligence operative. Maybe a BAD intelligence operative. The pros--and you have to put Al Qaida in that class--do their surveillance far more discretely. I'm sure the sight of someone taking photos or listening to a scanner can get a 911 caller worked up but the reality is that the really good people doing reconnaissance will never be noticed or will be ignored if they are.

[Anonymous]

Earlier this year, a friend of mine was videotaping a Norfolk Southern train at about 9 PM. His video camera has a flashing blue light on it, so, we believe that must have alerted someone, either the conductor or a neighbor. Anyway, they called the city police. A police officer arrived and asked my friend what he was doing and asked to see the video camera. After inspecting the device, the officer said that it was certainly all right if my friend video tapes trains as long as he is careful and does not trespass on the railroad. I recently talked to another police officer who said that it is not illegal to watch trains and even take pictures of them. He said that it is illegal and dangerous to interfere with railroad property though. Now remember, this is in Southern Illinois. Some other parts of the country may have different laws about video taping trains. I know for a fact that you can video tape and take pictures of trains at CSX's Howell Yards in Evansville Indiana and you can take pictures of trains at Princeton Indiana. Also, Effingham Illinois allows people to video tape and take pictures of trains at their depot.

[kevikens]

It will do little good to confine your concerns to writing something on this forum. You must get up, get out and do something constructive as several of us here in NJ have done. When NJT tried to stop railfanning by forbidding photography of its equipmenmt from anywhere including the sidewalks of public property we contacted our local ACLU by written letter. You must do it this way. They will not accept e-mails and phone calls. Get the address of your local ACLU from the internet and write them with the specifics. They did a good job here in NJ, went right ot the state's Attorney General and NJT. We received written copies of correspondence between the Attorney General and NJT informing NJT of the legality of rail photography from public property. I travel with that letter with me and have shown it to NJT and local police. They are surprised to see this but do back off. Many police do not know the law. If you want to keep on railfanning you had better do something tangible to educate law enforcement. Across the river in Phila. last year the police took into custody two photogs taking pictures of oil refineries from a bridge claiming it was illegal. It cost the city several thousand dollars to settle the ensuing uproar. As distasteful as it might seem if we do not protect our interests we will lose them. Don't be content to write something on here, write your local ACLU.

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF4ever

I don't fault the police on the scene here--they have a job to do and often any misguided application of their policy is the result of orders from higher up. Not sure I agree with the earlier assessment about someone with a camera and scanner looking like an intelligence operative. Maybe a BAD intelligence operative. The pros--and you have to put Al Qaida in that class--do their surveillance far more discretely. I'm sure the sight of someone taking photos or listening to a scanner can get a 911 caller worked up but the reality is that the really good people doing reconnaissance will never be noticed or will be ignored if they are.

The point is that to the lady driving the minivan home from Target it looks suspicious. And I am pretty familiar with surveillance concepts and you would be very surprised how open many of them are.

Dan

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kevikens

It will do little good to confine your concerns to writing something on this forum. You must get up, get out and do something constructive as several of us here in NJ have done. <Snip>

True enough. Talking about it here, though, may spur some folks to take that action, and certainly helps make all of us aware that we're not doing anything illegal, despite claims by people in authority to the contrary.

In NJ you had a problem and got it fixed. Sometimes trying to fix a problem before it occurs actually causes more problems. That's why I haven't done anything yet here...