Railfanning, Homeland Security, and what we can and cannot do...

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan.

Weather you like it or not. You can be sent to jail just for Railfanning. And you can thank Bu***oo for that. Railfanning days are over. Allan.

Don't be ridiculous. I'm fixing to go railfanning this afternoon. If you don't hear from me, I'll be in the graybar hotel all weekend.

m

[Anonymous]

The Police is right to stop picture taking of trains!!!!!!!!!!.
They should however also stop picture taking of:
Cars
Trucks
Ships
Airplanes
Towns
Farmland
Roads (including dust roads - of course-)
Waterways
Your wife
Your kids
Your cat
Your dog
Your bird
Your lanmower
Your house
Your etc. etc. (set in here what ever you want)

It should als be forbidden to come even close to railroad tracks
and all the above mentioned "subjects"

Got it where this craze can lead????????????.

Hope that all can come down to normal life.

[Anonymous]

People can and do assert their rights every day, and if absolutely necessary file civil sanctions against ignorant and/or wayward cops. And THAT keeps our civil rights intact.

Allan, you speak for yourself when you declare a widespread and "feisty" hobby to be dead or obsolete. I railfan all the time and no civil authority has ever looked crooked at me.

Allen Smalling

[Anonymous]

Weather you like it or not. You can be sent to jail just for Railfanning. And you can thank Bu***oo for that. Railfanning days are over. Allan.

[Anonymous]

Very interesting. It's good to know how fundamental our rights are. It's sad to think that people are willing to abandon them rather than get hauteur from a cop.

[fidder56]

Hear much about what you can and can not do as a photographer. To read about your rights as a photographer down load a one page flyer at www.krages.com/phoright.htm This was written by a lawyer so I guess he knows what he is talking about. This is worth reading.

[trainboyH16-44]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ChrisBARailfan

It is more than just the local police though. Just last night I was railfanning (without a camera) in a Kansas City park that overlooks the entrance to Union Station and the BNSF Transcon when a BNSF Police Officer informed me that I was now restricted from observing train movements by order of the DHS. I complied and left, but as I was leaving I was advised that I would be detained for questioning and possibly arrested if I was stopped again.

That's insane! If you're restricted from observing train movements, then grade crossings will have to be closely monitered for motorists that glance out the car window, webcams like the TRAINS.com one will have to be shut down, along with the railfan parks at Rochelle, Ill., and Flatonia, Texas, and also, all windows that face a rail line will have to be blocked off, and while you're at it, why not just bury all the railways underground?

I have never had any bad experiences with police, or railroaders of any sort. Maybe it's just that I live in a place where there have never really been any terrorist attacks (Calgary, alberta)(knock on wood) but I have always had a great time railfanning, on both public and private property (the latter when I convinced a train crew to let me into the cab of a local that was switching grain cars at the yard down the hill from my house, and took a picture of a pota***rain that was going by)
I have had one police-train experience, though. The train club I attend is in a baddish neighbourhood, and we have seen police raid several houses close by. One night, the police decided to check us out (A handful of men regularely meeting in a building with boarded up windows can look suspicious) A few officers came in, and quickly discovered what we were doing was prefectly legal. That's it for trouble with the law.
Matthew

[Anonymous]

Every week I read the Trains Newswire and can't help but wonder about all the incidents that we read about that could have been an act of terror.If we don't get the whole story on these incidents,we don't really know what could be going on with our railroads. It could be that the police know something we don't and are acting on their knowledge.I think we should be careful and persue our interests and at the same time be aware that something evil could be taking place to destroy the freedoms we enjoy now.

[Anonymous]

So many are afraid to stand up for their basic rights. Where would we be today if the founders had not "stood up"? Life is what you make it, if you let them get away with this, then the next thing will be blindfolds for airline/Amtrak passengers!(we can't have them looking out the windows can we? they might report something to trains.com!)

[edblysard]

Murphy,
Its just plain Ed...Blysard is the last name.
Would love to see him run, because I think he would do a fantastic job if elected.
It would also be interesting to see how Americans would react, and see if they would vote for him because of his ability, or against him based on the color of his skin.

Ed

[Murphy Siding]

EdBlysard: I've lost track of this thread, probably because I live in S.D. which is far , far away from any thoughts of terrorists. I'm glad to find out that Colin Powell is eligable to run for president. We've had a long run of professional politicians as our presidents, and a change of scenerey would be refreshing. I used to enjoy Pat Paulson's presidential "campaigns", and his classic slogan-"We've upped our standards,now up yours."

[Anonymous]

Has anybody actually read the law? What does it saY?

Sherman

[mandelswamp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dep112362
... I heard and read, where you cant take pic's in the NY subway, not planning on going to NY anytime soon, but just wondering why I keep hearing different things, Doug

Doug, the MTA considered banning photography in the subways but it reseived too much flak to institute such a ban. As I mentioned before, Section 1050.9 Restricted Areas and Activities, item C explicitly permits photography. Check out this section of the MTA's Rule of Conduct at http://www.mta.info/nyct/rules/rules.htm.

[mandelswamp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dep112362

*mandelswamp* I read your post, not sure what to think, sound like you know what your talking about, but like I said, I heard and read, where you cant take pic's in the NY subway, not planning on going to NY anytime soon, but just wondering why I keep hearing different things, Doug
P.S. I wish i could think of the right thing to say about the london bombing's, and all the rest of what's going on in our world, at least when I'm out taking RR pic's it's a great escape from the troubles of the world

As I mentioned in my original posting, the MTA was considering banning photos in the subways but the rules they adopted still explicitly permits it [see Section 1050.9 Resticted Areas and Activities, item c of the Rules of Conduct at http://www.mta.info/nyct/rules/rules.htm].

Here are just three examples of postings that forced the MTA NOT to ban photos:
http://www.misc-transport.com/americas/NYC_Transit_Photography_Ban_203806.html
and http://www.al-ollendorf.com/archive/000024.html, and http://artdc.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=446. I first learned about the issue in a posting to this forum.

A Newsday June 24th article reported on the MTA imposing fines on certain subway riding behavior such as a $75 fine for riding between cars or jumping a turnstile because the MetroCard did not work. Details were at http://www.newsday.com/mynews/ny-nyfine244317150jun24,0,1493312.story but this page is no longer found.

[RudyRockvilleMD]

Jennifer:
The website for Bert Krages is: www.krages.com/phoright.htm. That works for me. Once you get to his web site click on the link to download his tract on photographers' rights; I believe it is a pdf file. His tract applies to all photography not just railroad photography or train watching. I hope this helps.

I agree with you the police need to be educated about the rights of photographers (especially railfans photographing trains from public property), and the best way to do it is thru the mayor of the town, the local chief of police, the ACLU if necessary, or the news media.

If you are photogrphing a train from public properety, and a police officer tells you photographing trains is not legal, and to leave even if you are on public property, Leave! Don't argue! If you do,the police officer might try to charge you with some other crime.

P.S. I make sure I am on public property whenever I photograph trains, andso far I have yet to be told it is illegal to phtograph trains, or to leave.

[owlsroost]

QUOTE:

A primary tactic of all terrorists (who have no real influence by themselves) is to get everyone excited and induce law enforcement and others to beat up the innocent in the course of suppressing what really is, overall, an inconsequential threat. Terrorists call this "the war of the flea."

The scenario goes like this: An elephant comes to the village, and the villagers all go out to see it. At first, they like the elephant because it is such an unusual and amazing creature, and everyone wants to be friends with the elephant; but, the flea has other plans -- he hops on the elephant and locates himself on the elephant's testicles, where he bites the elephant incessantly. If one thinks about it, such flea bites really cannot hurt the elephant, but they are an annoyance, and this makes the elephant mad. No matter, because whatever the elephant does, he can do nothing about the flea biting his balls, so the elephant instead stomps around in a rage, digging up the gardens, kicking in the hutches, and trampling the children. This, of course, only affronts the villagers, who have spears, and eventually they go and kill the elephant -- something the flea never could have done.

Perhaps it is amusing to make sport of strange religions and stranger ways; but, the reality is that the numbers of actual terrorists are very few, and that those who are the butt of the jokes are very numerous. We may laugh for now, but eventually we will find ourselves much like the man who abuses his wife from suspicion and who, by his abuse, turns his suspicions into reality.

Who would be the "towel head" then?

Well said, nobullchitbids - I think that's the best analogy I've ever seen of how terrorists attempt to influence public opinion, and pertinent advice on not turning friends into potential enemies.

Tony

[railroadnut675]

We should contact the media ; I demand an explanation ; it would also make a good news story I thinkthe general public should no

[railroadnut675]

this totally sucks , I think we should tell the media then Maybe we could get an explanation from an under -pressure politician-big shot

[Anonymous]

I know what he's going through. However, this cap has been going before 9-11. Sept. 11 is just a handy excuse for law enforsement agencies to abuse their power. I know, I've been on the receiving end long before the attacks. One good example occured back in the late 1990's. My brother, some friends and myself wre train watching in the St. Louis area. A security guard appeared and asked what we were doing there. We told him the truth. He said we can sit there as long as we stay off the tracks. Then a jerk with Metrolink aqppeared. The guard told him what he had told us. The jerk wasn't satisfied. He told us we had go to Illinois to train watch, we weren't allowed to train watch in the state of Missouri. I wanted to tell him to go some place and do something with his anatomy but I knew better. Where did this idiot get the right to make such a statement? I don't know. Unfortunately, I see things getting much worse before they get better.

[nobullchitbids]

QUOTE: Originally posted by chad thomas

I thought the politicaly correct term was turbo top. But I like sheet heads better. [(-D][8D]

A word of advice from someone who actually once chased terrorists for a living and has read his share of terrorist literature:

A primary tactic of all terrorists (who have no real influence by themselves) is to get everyone excited and induce law enforcement and others to beat up the innocent in the course of suppressing what really is, overall, an inconsequential threat. Terrorists call this "the war of the flea."

The scenario goes like this: An elephant comes to the village, and the villagers all go out to see it. At first, they like the elephant because it is such an unusual and amazing creature, and everyone wants to be friends with the elephant; but, the flea has other plans -- he hops on the elephant and locates himself on the elephant's testicles, where he bites the elephant incessantly. If one thinks about it, such flea bites really cannot hurt the elephant, but they are an annoyance, and this makes the elephant mad. No matter, because whatever the elephant does, he can do nothing about the flea biting his balls, so the elephant instead stomps around in a rage, digging up the gardens, kicking in the hutches, and trampling the children. This, of course, only affronts the villagers, who have spears, and eventually they go and kill the elephant -- something the flea never could have done.

Perhaps it is amusing to make sport of strange religions and stranger ways; but, the reality is that the numbers of actual terrorists are very few, and that those who are the butt of the jokes are very numerous. We may laugh for now, but eventually we will find ourselves much like the man who abuses his wife from suspicion and who, by his abuse, turns his suspicions into reality.

Who would be the "towel head" then?

[route_rock]

As long as you are on public property I am not going to care. If you are standing right next to the tracks ( or better yet on main 2 in Downers Grove) then Hell yeah your getting arrested if you dont get killed first.

Are terrorists looking for major calamity? Yes they are. Would a major freight yard do the trick? Sure if it has the right cars in it.

If its illegal to take pictures of trains from RR property does this mean I am going to get fired? Hell a lot of us are taking pics of you guys just for giggles. One of my fellow conductors takes pics of cars with artisitc grafitti on em.

Act smart dont be stupid when dealing with the cops. BNSF RR Police have an attitude as do any RR cop. their job is to get tresspassers out and keep claims down.If Matt Rose's car goes by an area with a bunch of railfans standing near the tracks then the RR cops are going to look like they dont do anything. And yes Matt has been on the Chicago div recently.

[Anonymous]

I am unable to get the link to Bert KragesII's website, linked on the first page of this thread, to work. Any help with a corrected or updated webpage address would be appreciated. We need to stand up and demand our Rights and make sure that when we act within the law, that we are not billied into believing that we are breaking the law. We need to make sure that both DAs and Local Police have up-to-date and correct information about what is legal to protograph. If it takes involving the medai, so be iit, but that will usually pi^^ off the cops even more, so providing them with accurate information and demanding that they too folow and enfore the accurate laws and NOT abridge your constitutional rights is very important. If you get stopped and asked to leave, don;t argue, but DO ask for contact information for the cops superiors and make sure you get accurate info to them on the corrent photography laws and about how you were NOT in violation of any laws, and perhaps even offer to get some railfans together to do a seminar for the Plice to educate them about what railfans are all about, and how 'we' would appreciate their understanding of us, and our compliance of the actual and real laws. If we don't stand up to this and assert our rights as Citizens of a Free Nation, then the terrorist sandrats win. The challenge is to make the cops our allies in defense of our legal and Constitutional rights. Education is the best way I know of.
Jennifer

[Anonymous]

If a railroad cop tells you that you can't take pictures of trains from where you are standing, ask him where the property line is, especially if you are parked on a city street. Rental security officers are dumb as rocks. I was parked on a city street and this guy says that I can't take pictures, so I asked him if the railroad plows the street during wintertime? He didn't know what to say.

[Anonymous]

Apropos the Japanese not-so-secret ship, does anyone remember about 20 years ago when Revell had to "retire" its model of the new stealth bomber prematurely because it was too darn much like the original?

What can I say, both the DoD and Revell obviously had design geniuses.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Colojack

There is more hysteria than security in Homeland Security. It's amazing how far people, including professionals like law enforcement, will go despite their gross ignorance. We live is scarey times--and not all from terrorists.

OUCH! LOL.
Allan.

[JimValle]

In the 1930's the Japanese built two gigantic battleships behind huge curtains made of sisal rope but they still ended up in the 1941 edition of Jane's Fighting Ships. I propose we hang similar curtains on both sides of every railroad right-of-way in the whole nation. That way nobody could see the trains and terrorists would have to rely on the millions and millions of pictures already in existence to gather the intelligence they need. Then the cops wouldn't have to impose what Mark Twain called " insect authority" on harmless railfans.

[Anonymous]

Hi, I am a police officer from London who last October ran up against the morons (from clearly a very small gene pool) employed by the railroad in Lancaster, PA, surely not a hotbed of Islamic fundamentalism while pursuing my hobby of US railroads. Stop the paranoia, freight yards are not targets, large groups of travelling members of the public are where maximum casualties and the resultant publicity "further the cause".

[Chris_S68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dabruno644

Let's get to the nitty-gritty of this incident. I know this area and there is no park near this location. The UP/Metra R.O.W. from the toll road (I-294) to Addison St. is landscaped and very park like but it is the UP/Metra R.O.W. If you were "inside the trees" you were on the railroad property. Stick to the grade crossing at Poplar Ave.

The nitty gritty would be that you apparently don't know the area as well as you think, and you apparently didn't read the author's post very well.
There is a small park called Golden Meadows tucked between the tollway and the residential area just North of the UP. The leads that head up to yard 9 skirt the Southeast edge of the park. Now, whether or not he went beyond any sort of boundry at some point...

[owlsroost]

QUOTE: at least when I'm out taking RR pic's it's a great escape from the troubles of the world

Exactly [:)]

Tony

[Anonymous]

Mr. Bruno is right: paved public roads and sidewalks are a railfan's best friend.
[8D]

[Anonymous]

Let's get to the nitty-gritty of this incident. I know this area and there is no park near this location. The UP/Metra R.O.W. from the toll road (I-294) to Addison St. is landscaped and very park like but it is the UP/Metra R.O.W. If you were "inside the trees" you were on the railroad property. Stick to the grade crossing at Poplar Ave.

[LVJJJ]

"Wabneri" is right. I worked in a government office for 23 years where I was in charge of enforcing zoning and subdivision regulations. Prior to the Oklahoma City bombings, we didn't worry too much when customers got angry with us (not too many people like zoning laws, go figure). We were instructed to keep them in the office and work with them to calm them down. After Oklahoma City, we were instructed to call 9-1-1 at the first sign of anger on the part of the customer. We had code words to clear the office and for someone to call 9-1-1. As a supervisor I had to stay with the angry person and protect the rest of the office staff until the sheriff arrived. I retired in 2000, so I would imagine that after 9-11-01 security is even more strict in my old office. So, whether we railfans like it or not, any government enforcement officer is not going to stand around and argue the Constitution with you. I strongly recommend that if asked to leave, you do so very politely and take up the matter with the appropriate authorities at a later date. Larry in Las Vegas. (It is true that law enforcement is rather lax here in Nevada, there just aren't a lot of trains).

[chad thomas]

I thought the politicaly correct term was turbo top. But I like sheet heads better. [(-D][8D]

[Anonymous]

I must interject that the term "towel heads" is not politically correct, nor is it technically correct. They do not wear towels on their heads.. It is a little sheet. Therefore, from now on please refer to them as "little sheet heads".
[;)][:D]

[chad thomas]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Ed Dalton

I was in Law Enforcement for 23 1/2 years. The answers come from the top (Sr NCO) NOT from the 9-1-1 operator, who is most cases have not a clue what they are talking about. Give the cops a break, they've got a very hard job to do, but at the same time - do not let them give you static whilst on public property taking photos's of trains. TELL them to check with their Sr NCO at headquarters, and then again, go above their head the next day until you get the proper answers!

I agree. The way to handle it is to just that.[;)]

Check out all the new posters on this thread. Welcome to the forum guys.[8D]

[alstom]

In Fostoria and Greenwich, Ohio, cops usually pass by up to 6 times a day. If you're not from around there, they'll usually ask you about it. Berea, Ohio is totally public. You can stand as close as you want to 75 mph trains and you won't get yelled at. They've never yelled at me for taking pictures (filming) the trains, although there was a couple of times where it almost happened, but somebody else warned me ahead of time. I say cops should loosen up and quit being such jerks[:(!]!!

[Chris_S68]

Re: the original post.
This is nothing new in Elmhurst. I grew up there, and believe me, they always show up with plenty of backup no matter how innocuous the situation may seem.
If I'm envisioning things correctly, your location was somewhat off the beaten path, so it's not too surprising that you might draw some attention, particularly later in the evening when the shadows are getting long. Aside from that, the truth is some railroaders plain don't like railfans - maybe someone wanted to send some grief your way. When I was on the CNW, railfans were often referred to as "FRNs".
9/11 and the Patriot Act has muddied the waters, but as far as confusion as to what the laws are, that's nothing new either. Starting trouble would have done just that, so you handled things well. As others have mentioned, there's other, more appropriate ways of resolving the matter.

[Anonymous]

*mandelswamp* I read your post, not sure what to think, sound like you know what your talking about, but like I said, I heard and read, where you cant take pic's in the NY subway, not planning on going to NY anytime soon, but just wondering why I keep hearing different things, Doug
P.S. I wish i could think of the right thing to say about the london bombing's, and all the rest of what's going on in our world, at least when I'm out taking RR pic's it's a great escape from the troubles of the world

[Anonymous]

I’ve read all the posts, is it true that you can't take pic's in the NY subway system? I’m sure I’ve heard and read that more than once, (they busted a 12 year old girl for eating a french fry in the subway system, was in all the news papers last week about her appearance in court) and isn't the subway a public transportation system? public property not private?
Thanks, Doug
Madison, Ohio

[WhistlinDixie]

I haven't read every last post in this thread, but in a quick glance I didn't see any mention of Rochelle. If it is illegal to take pix of trains, then Rochelle must be like the Nevada of trainwatching--you know, the place where you can do things that are illegal everywhere else. I suppose that means there will soon be casinos and whorehouses in Rochelle (for those of you who have never visited that boring town in boring northern Illinois, the very thought of anything exotic there is funny as hell).

As for it being illegal to even watch trains, perhaps we ought to test the law by sitting on some public bench near a wifi hotspot, with a laptop clearly showing the Rochelle webcam. It would be good to scribble notes as we see trains appear, and perhaps wear trenchcoats as well.

I hope it is obvious I'm just being a smartass. The country seems to have come down with a serious case of the Ninnies. As others have pointed out, if you have any conception of statistical probabilities at all, you'll put terrorists far down on your list of things to fear. Living in Wisconsin as I do (Motto: "We welcome Illinoisans bearing tax dollars"), where alcohol consumption is much greater than the national average, I mostly fear inebriated idiots in the opposite lane of traffic.

[Anonymous]

Protesting sounds great when you are being stopped by police. I know, a RR *** stopped me for taking pictures of a old turn table on the NS.

But, even if the policeman is wrong in his interpretation of the law, the minute you refuse to move on, you have started a potential chain reaction that will put you on the losing end of the law as you have disobeyed a direct order from a law enforcement officer. (He will claim that he had probable cause to stop you, and trust me that all in encompassing claim will be tough to dispute).

Now the charges start to mount. Resisting arrest, dis-obeying a lawful order, and disorderly conduct (if you create a disturbance, ie arguing, foul language,etc) Then comes the confiscation of your ($1500.00 or more digitial) camera with the potential of permanent damage. And after you are put in the paddy wagon, your vehicle will be towed for "your protection".

Oh, I forgot, you might be thumped on and rough handled cause the officer thought you were resisting him. And on and on it goes. (lawyer fees, court appearance and fines and jail time???)

One other thing. The courts and the law enforcement officers are tight. Judges trust and believe their officer over you any day of the week and twice on Sunday. If a Judge finds out an officer lies to him ( that is if the judge is an honest guy) then an officer has a tough time in court. But this is few and far between.

In other words, if stopped, you need to make a decision on how you want to handle the situation. Will I keep railfaining, you bet. Since my name and SSN is now logged in the files of NS in Roanoke Virginie, I'll have to be more careful.
And so should you!

[Anonymous]

howdy.

Is it just me or is this entire terror level rating thing getting a bit out of hand? Every time Osama sneezes in the wrong direction we raise the level. I think that we have become oversensitive to this whole thing. Yes I agree that what happened in NYC, and london was terrobile, yet I believe the day that we are worried about fellow foamers shooting photos, the terrorists have won. Now I dont know what kind of troubles you guys are having out west ( Im from Erie Pa,) with both UP and BNSF, but I think this is rediculus. We have never had a problem here in sunny valley with the police questioning railfans, Because we have places to cater to us. We have museums, and resturaunts, heck evev crossings that the cops wont come near, especially to question a innocent railfan. My suggestion to you is to do as many of my commrades in rails have done, and establish a place of railroad watching. Weather a resturaunt a Wye, or a empty parking lot, if it will serve as a refuge for railfans than its serving its purpuse. Isnt it? I realize that its not as good as the your union station, or the bridge overlooking the engine facility, but thats the world we live in today. And if it lasts another 2 weeks or for the duration of the hobby its just something were going to have to live with. Also alerting the media might work. But I wouldnt expect a change anytime soon. Thats the way I see it.

Many thanks for your time
Keep on railroading.
G.W.R

[Ed Dalton]

I was in Law Enforcement for 23 1/2 years. The answers come from the top (Sr NCO) NOT from the 9-1-1 operator, who is most cases have not a clue what they are talking about. Give the cops a break, they've got a very hard job to do, but at the same time - do not let them give you static whilst on public property taking photos's of trains. TELL them to check with their Sr NCO at headquarters, and then again, go above their head the next day until you get the proper answers!

[Anonymous]

I live in Rochelle and have been a Railfan all my life. We are very fortunate to have a place we can go and do what we do best. Come on out and take advantage of what we have here and enjoy your hobby hassle free.

[Anonymous]

the situation in london twice lately has everybody extra jumpy right at the moment.
i expect it will settle down if there are no more immediate attacks. it was the same
after 9-11 in new york city. it's probably rougher in the bigger cities than elsewhere.
confrontations are nothing new, they have been going on for years. during the racial
crisis in alabama in the 50's, police were harder on railfans because they were jumpy
about everything and more prone to excess. crosstie

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cttrr

I am a CBS cameraman in Chicago, we are having the same type of problems at our jobs. I am in a slightly better position, in that when I stand my ground I keep rolling tape to get the whole exchange recorded, and we have lawyers on call to handle the problem if I get arrested (which I have not yet). I just recite "any object visible with the naked eye from a public place can be photographed". I do not ever inject opinion into the conversation only let the cops make illegal responses to my statement. I carry the photog. bill rights printed from the website quoted above with me at all times, both a paper copy and as a doc. in my palm pilot.

I also work at a CBS affiliate. So far, we have not run into major hassles when photographing chemical plants, railroads, and the like. I do have a state police-issued press ID, though.

My $0.02: First, make reasonably certain you're on public property. In other words, if the railroad has the area posted, don't go past the sign.

If even though you may be on public property peacefully railfanning, and a police officer comes up to you and starts asking questions, be polite. We're talking manners akin to what was the norm at grandma's house for Sunday dinner 50 years ago here. Being polite and nonconfrontational will reduce the stress factor for both of you.

Remind the officer politely that you have a right to take pictures, so long as it's not of any forbidden location, such as a military post. If he tells you you're on private property, ask him to point out where public property ends and private property begins. Be prepared to pack up and leave if the officer gets a power rush from his badge.

If, despite your best efforts, things get seriously ugly, go public. Beat on the local television stations' assignment desk or news director. Remind them that if you are restricted from taking pictures on public property, they might well be next. Railroads are pathetic at press relations; a blast of negative media coverage could persuade them to lighten up a bit.

Keep in mind the city police officers are human beings too, and would probably rather be anywhere except near the railroad tracks chasing railfans away. The Bull, though, is another matter entirely.

[Anonymous]

There is more hysteria than security in Homeland Security. It's amazing how far people, including professionals like law enforcement, will go despite their gross ignorance. We live is scarey times--and not all from terrorists.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mandelswamp

There are now signs posted at NY bridges (including railroad ones) and tunnels that photography of such structures is outlawed.

This is a violation of your civil rights. Write to the ACLU about this.

Sincerely,
Daniel Parks

[nobullchitbids]

First of all, "supersede" is not spelled: s-u-p-e-r-c-e-e-d. And no legislation, even an Act of Congress, "supersedes" genuinely asserted constitutional rights, whether they be asserted by "towelheads" (I assume you mean Moslems but perhaps include Hindis as well) or anyone else.

[kicksvette]

For anybody harrassed in the Chicago area while railfanning, I would suggest contacting the Chicago Tribune. The Trib broke the original story about railfans being hassled while waiting for a retired loco earlier this year. The story resulted in Metra publicly announcing that trains are not off limits. I'm sure the Trib would enjoy a follow up story about this lunacy continuing.

Glad I wasn't hassled yesterday while enjoying Rochelle. Maybe they haven't realized that the Trains Webcam out there is really a terrorist plot.

[Anonymous]

Sounds like we have lost the battle.
Allan.

[Anonymous]

Unfortunately, The Patriot Act now superceeds our constitutional rights. This is the reason for the increased objectionable activities by the police. If rail fans want to challenge the abuse, in the name of "National Security," your efforts should be made at the legislative level. Also contact organizations like the NRHS, the NMRA, fan magazine publishers (like the fine people who run this site) and succintly show your support for some way rail fans can work within the system to be recognized as a friend of railroads and national security.

If we don't (as long as Towelheads build backpack bombs) our legal access to "The Free Show" is hereby terminated.

[cttrr]

I am a CBS cameraman in Chicago, we are having the same type of problems at our jobs. I am in a slightly better position, in that when I stand my ground I keep rolling tape to get the whole exchange recorded, and we have lawyers on call to handle the problem if I get arrested (which I have not yet). I just recite "any object visible with the naked eye from a public place can be photographed". I do not ever inject opinion into the conversation only let the cops make illegal responses to my statement. I carry the photog. bill rights printed from the website quoted above with me at all times, both a paper copy and as a doc. in my palm pilot.

[mandelswamp]

Currently, NYCRR Title 21.Chapter XXI - METROPOLITAN TRANSPORTATION AUTHORITY SUBCHAPTER D - RULES AND REGULATIONS GOVERNING THE CONDUCT AND SAFETY OF THE PUBLIC - Part 1050.
Rules Governing the Conduct and Safety of the Public in the Use of the Facilities of New York City Transit Authority and Manhattan and Bronx Surface Transit Operating Authority
Section 1050.9 Restricted areas and activities. Part C states:
Photography, filming or video recording in any facility or conveyance is permitted except that ancillary equipment such as lights, reflectors or tripods may not be used. Members of the press holding valid identification issued by the New York City Police Department are hereby authorized to use necessary ancillary equipment. All photographic activity must be conducted in accordance with the provision of these Rules.

Following the Madrid bombings, the MTA considered changing the code to forbid taking photos in the subways but there was enough of a public outcry that the MTA backed off. With the London bombings, things are tense and the MTA is again rethinking its position. There are now signs posted at NY bridges (including railroad ones) and tunnels that photography of such structures is outlawed.

When you consider all of the hazardous materials that trains transport, you can understand why authorities are jumpy about individuals photographing freight trains or even many railside industries. My suggestion would be to notify the PR of the railroad or industry and the local police and explain that you are a railfan who would like to take some photographs from plublic property at specific locations and ask them for permission. I believe that in most cases they will give you that permission and the railroad or industry workers and police patrols will be alerted to your possible presence and therefore won't be jumpy if they see you with a camera in hand. Stay away if you cannot get the permission.

[nobullchitbids]

I agree that the confrontationists are using the wrong approach. However misguided, police officers are just trying to do a very trying job, and the reality is that there are security problems surrounding the nation's railroads. What, for example, would happen were someone to blow Altamont Tunnel? Shutting down a bottleneck like this well could disrupt much of the country, and U.P. would be derelict not to be concerned about that.

So, try to be a little understanding when railroad police choose to be a little nosy -- if you really are a U.P. fan, you have to be a little on the company's side.

Beyond that, what you are told is correct: From a public location (such as a public park), you have an absolute constitutional right to photograph just about anything you want, including trains and railroad equipment. If you are being hassled for doing this, the first thing to do is go to the chief of police and politely make it clear that you are prepared to exercise your rights and defend them if necessary. If you don't gain satisfaction and understanding there, the next two stops are the United States Attorney's Office and the ACLU -- police officers can be prosecuted criminally under 18 U.S.C. sec. 242 and civilly under 42 U.S.C. secs. 1983 & 1985 for willfully violating ones constitutional rights, so in the long run, you will win this one if you go about it in the right way.

Know the precedents which back you up: The ACLU has a number of books it has published re the rights of reporters and your right to government and other information; all of them are well supported with binding case precedents, including perhaps one which fits you to a "T." While quoting these to an offending officer probably would be a waste of time, at minimum you can save your own attorneys a lot of work by knowing up front where they should start looking (they'll respect you more for knowing that as well, and perhaps charge you less). Lawyers love cases where all they have to do is make a phone call, and that solves the problem.

Finally, when a police officer does interfere with your activities, do what you can to identify who he is -- get his badge number and his name if possible, or the number of his squad car. Say, "Do you have a credential? I would like to see it." After all, anyone and his mother can get a police badge -- are you even certain the offender was a policeman? You cannot make a complaint against somebody overstepping his authority unless you know who the person is or can identify him later. A Sec. 242 violation is an individual violation -- you would be suing the officer, not the department (unless as a matter of policy it were the department which was violating the law).

Know that, in this country, courts are not invested with the powers of gods and can decide only cases or controversies -- there has to be a real proceeding before them before they can rule on anything. You may see the day when you have to tell the officer that he is wrong and that you will continue your activities unless you are arrested, in which case there will be lots of litigation, most of it costing him. That, however, is the LAST thing you should do, not the first. Those who are advising you otherwise are being irresponsible.

[alstom]

I say that the whole thing is messed up. So what if you're just taking pictures of trains. It's what railfans do. They're ridiculous[:(!]! I don't understand it. A similar situation happened to me twice, so I just forget those areas. So I have to say it's screwed up.

[chad thomas]

Welcome to the board guys.[8D]

[jefelectric]

http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf

After playing around a little I found the link to the site.

[Anonymous]

Actually the BeaNSnifF chopper was black with gold markings.
Roger

[chad thomas]

Wow!! That's a new one. I've never heard of anyone getting "Pulled over" by a hellicopter. It wasn't black was it? [(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D]

[Anonymous]

I live in Flagstaff Az. and the BNSFs Canyon Diablo Bridge is about 30 miles east of town. Been gong out there all my life (40 yrs.) to watch the trains. In the last 4 yrs I have had 2 helicopters (one BNSF security, one AZ. DPS) land to ask what the hell I was doing, as well as several ground vehicles. I was outside the right of way fence on land that is actually The Navajo reservation. Once they knew what I was doing, and maybe just as important, That I knew what I was doing and knew my rights, they had no problem. And believe me the BeaNSnifF and the DOT worry about that big cantilever.

Roger

[Anonymous]

Things are not all bad. While I got marooned by United AL in Fargo ND in May I did some railfaning near and around the BNSF mainline. While taking some photos of the ore trains crossing beside the depot, a nice women came out from the depot and gave me her last 2005 Calendar[8D][tup]

[Anonymous]

Roger Wilco!

[RudyRockvilleMD]

QUOTE: Originally posted by smalling_60626

Note to Rudy from Rockville: I can't access the link you gave us:

www.krages.com/phoright.htm

Since I assume the attorney wasn't abducted by the Thought Police and sent to Gitmo, could you check this link and see if perhaps there is a newer or better one?

I was also able to acess mr Krages' web site as listed. Once you access his web site you have to click on a link to download his photographer's rights flyer. The flyer is in a pdf fomat.

Rudy

[chad thomas]

Works for me too.

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by smalling_60626

Note to Rudy from Rockville: I can't access the link you gave us:

www.krages.com/phoright.htm

Since I assume the attorney wasn't abducted by the Thought Police and sent to Gitmo, could you check this link and see if perhaps there is a newer or better one?

Mighty bizarre, it just worked for me.

[Anonymous]

Note to Rudy from Rockville: I can't access the link you gave us:

www.krages.com/phoright.htm

Since I assume the attorney wasn't abducted by the Thought Police and sent to Gitmo, could you check this link and see if perhaps there is a newer or better one?

[Anonymous]

How wants to see Mrs Clinton in office? What the Hell is her name anyway.
Allan.

[Anonymous]

Check the Constitution: You'd have to be a BORN American citizen, not naturalized.

That's why Powell is eligible to run for President but Schwarzenegger isn't.

[Anonymous]

I think that much as I hated Clinton....I still he'd a much better President after all.
Allan.

[Junctionfan]

Are you sure anybody can run for office as longs as they have been a U.S citizen for x amount of years?

[edblysard]

Powell was born a US Citizen, in New York, raised in the Bronx.
His parents are Jamaciam immigrants.
See
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/biog/1349.htm
for more info.
Very elegible to run for the office.

Ed

[TimChgo9]

Since Allan apolgized, I won't go off on him.

[Murphy Siding]

Ed Blysard: Are you sure Colin Powell is eligable to run for president? I thought he wasn't a natural born citizen of the USA-being born in maybe Jamaica? For what it's worth, I read a lot of history, I just seem to remember less of the details.

[Anonymous]

I'll forgive you this time but Allan, REALLY . . . !

[Anonymous]

Sorry I wasn't thinking when I typed that guys.I am very sorry.
Allan.

[Junctionfan]

I didn't know the Klan had a chapter in Nebraska......learn something new everyday.[V]

[edblysard]

Allan,
Define "true white Americans" for me, please....

I was under the impression that being an American was a nationality, as opposed to a specific race or species.

As Dan pointed out, Americans of other colors have and still do contribute greatly to this country.

Tuskegee Fighter group, WWII, escorted Allied Bombers into Germany, with zero loses of bombers to enemy fighters.

No other fighter group can make that claim.

Elijah McCoy, inventory of one of the best automatic oiling mechanisms for locomotives, and for whom the phrase “the real McCoy” is credited….by the way, the oil pump in your automobile is a direct descendent of his invention, his family holds several patents on many industrial machines still in use today.

How about Juan Seguin, Mexican land owner in Texas, who supplied troops to General Sam Houston, and provided food, shelter and arms to some of the defenders of the Alamo as they made their way to San Antonio.(although in Seguin’s case, he was more concerned in building an independent Texas than becoming part of America)

Colin Powell, who, if we are lucky, will become the first black US President.

Thurgood Marshall, Black US Supreme Court Justice, who defended your right to be a racist, because he defended your right to privacy, your civil rights, your first amendment rights, and won the majority of the court over in the concept of stopping double jeopardy, which prevents you from being tried twice for the same crime.

Your implication of true “Americans” as being white is silly, at best, and raciest at the least.

I doubt that you could find any ethnic group that hasn’t contributed some major achievement to the America way of life.

We are a nation made up of concepts and laws, not races or religions.

And America only works when we apply all of our laws to all of our citizens equally, and apply the same laws and concepts to all others as well.

I have several Muslim friends, and the one thing that strikes me as setting their religion apart from most others is the tolerance that it teaches.

Those that follow the faith of Islam are taught from the first that all paths lead to God, and that each person should be allowed to follow their own path.

If that path happens to follow the Muslim traditions, fine, and if it doesn’t, that’s fine too.

Find anything like that in most of your western religions?

I haven’t, at least not yet.

The fanatics responsible for 9/11, and the London bombings, hide behind their religion, what they are truly after is the political power.

Their agenda included racial and religious cleansing, total control over their small part of the world.

They are so far removed from the real tenants of Islam that even their fellow country men are beginning to despise them as rabid racial and religious fanatics, and this is in a part of the world where being a devout religious follower is the norm.

They espouse the concept that they are the “true Muslims” and that all others are infidels, not worthy of life…

Sound familiar?

After all, if you change the word Muslim to the word White….

Thinking like that is what caused this horror in the first place, so I suggest you go take a hard look the mirror, and decide if your statement concerning “true white Americans” is something you want to put out there in the public view.

If it is, then you just placed yourself into the same category as the terrorist, as a narrow minded racist fanatic.

Ed

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by smalling_60626

Ronald Reagan was SO right: "Any government big enough to give you want you want is big enough to take it away."

I'm sure most civil libertarians would see a restriction on domestic rwy photography, an expansion of the tenets of "imminent domain" to include private taking of private property, and the fact that Congress bent over backward today to GIVE the FBI the right to delve into public library records WITHOUT WARRANT AND IN FACT IN SECRET IF THEY FEEL NECESSARY -- all of these are abridgements of our freedom.

President Reagan was also right when he said that government is the problem, not the solution. I will agree that some parts of the Patriot Act that involve search warrents probably need to be changed. However, none of the complaints I have seen here have anything to do with that.

[Anonymous]

Ronald Reagan was SO right: "Any government big enough to give you want you want is big enough to take it away."

I'm sure most civil libertarians would see a restriction on domestic rwy photography, an expansion of the tenets of "imminent domain" to include private taking of private property, and the fact that Congress bent over backward today to GIVE the FBI the right to delve into public library records WITHOUT WARRANT AND IN FACT IN SECRET IF THEY FEEL NECESSARY -- all of these are abridgements of our freedom.

[ericsp]

Those of you who say we have lost freedoms because of the Patriot Act, could you please list them? What I see here is that there are some police officers who are not clear on the laws enacted since 09/11/2001, while others (appearently where I railfan at) are do appear to be clear.

Why is there just now all of this concern about losing freedoms? I remember back in the early or mid 1990s a farm who accidentally ran over an endangered species on his farmer was arrested. In California, if somone wants to open a bar, restaurant, et cetera and allow smoking that person is not allowed to do so. What abouth the Supreme Court saying that governments can take our properties to sell to a developer? It is a good thing to try to keep government reigned in. Just doing so in one area does not do much good.

Just complaining on a forum does no good eighter. What about sending a letter expressing your concern about these incidents to something like the International Association of Police Chiefs (http://www.theiacp.org/) or some other similar organizations and your elected representatives?

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan.

All because of 4 I said FOUR MUSLAMS that caused the 9/11 is why we true white americans have lost our freedoms forever.

Nice.....

I see your open mind extends beyond your opinion of law enforcement.......

It was members of Al Queda (19 not 4). Their religion or ethnicity is irrelevant.

BTW..if you are going to head this route, at least have the courtesy to spell the religion correctly. Adds a bit (not much mind you) of credibility to your case.

As far as true white Amercians...you mean like Colin Powell, Jackie Robinson, Dr Martin Luther King, Denzel Washington (who just paid a bunch of cash for a home to house families of combat wounded servicemen during recovery)....true white Americans like those.......and others......many of whom paid the ultimate sacrifice for you to spew drivel........

Son...you need some reality......maybe you need to lay off the trains and focus on the history for awhile.....[:(!]


Talk about ..."Grossly Dishonoring the American Flag"!!!!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan.

All because of 4 I said FOUR MUSLAMS that caused the 9/11 is why we true white americans have lost our freedoms forever.

So, are you saying everyone on here is white? Or that Americans of other colors are not true Americans? We've listened to your rantings about our country long enough, Allan, this time you've gone too far.

mike

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ChrisBARailfan

I was indeed talking about Washington Park, I was at the east end parked near the exit from under Union Station, I was out of my vehicle and was standing by the wall. The first contact I had was with a KCPD officer, he and I conversed for several minutes. As he walked on foot through the park he told me to have fun and be safe. Minutes later a BNSF Police explorer parked behind my vehicle and that is when I was asked to leave. I have watched movements from Washington Park and the Union Station parking lot for months with no problems.

I will be honest that I rarely watch planes at Wheeler Downtown airport, but you notice that the spot on the west side where you could park is gone. It was closed prior to construction and according to aviation workers will not be coming back. I however work during the day and do most watching in late evening or night. For years I sat on the I-29 outer road on the south side of the airport along the flight path in the gravel that runs along the outer road. Now signs have been posted along both outer roads advised no stopping is permitted. I have been asked to leave that spot by both MHP and Airport police due to security concerns.

As for the Air Show construction cancelled this years show and next years I believe, but after that "security and scheduling concerns" will dictate if the airshow returns. That was from the Kansas City Star from several weeks ago.

I am not being alarmist in saying that I believe that Kansas City and other local authorities have used "security concerns" to accomplish goals that before they could not have and once a freedom is taken it is rarely returned.

You were not on public property if you were parked below the station and not in Washington Park , no wonder you were asked to leave. I'm sure you wanted to park in the shade but this is not the place to do this.

You misstated your situation then made some general statements to support your
theory. Yes the west side parking area at Downtown Airport is probably gone for good,
I too will miss it, that's just the way it is, park on the south end.

As for MCI, do you really expect the police to allow anyone to sit anywhere around the airport unattended? I agree we are harmless in what we do, however get use to the fact
things will never be the same, Over all we haven't loss that many spots .

It is unfortunate your work forces you to fan at night, one has to expect some scrutiny
while out after dark, 911 aside, there are still crime issues to be addressed.

I'm not for giving in and allowing myself to be steamrolled, nor should you,yet a certain amount of change will have to be accepted and taking a few isolated events and making them into a call to arms to defend our freedoms is a bit much.

I railfan, watch the planes and hunt for benchmarks all of which attract attention, I feel
no great loss of my freedoms over and above the expected at this time.

I believe I get out as much as any one around here and I miss the old spots, many of which I shouldn't have been at in the first place, ( I believe it's called trespassing?)
Now I just have to remember the good old days and enjoy what we currently have,or else
I should stay at home.

I wasted more time on this than is necessary, point is for all of you get some perspective on things, cut the dramatics, if things get worse we can all speak up, we're not there yet.

P.S. Can't believe on one mentioned "The Patriot Act" and how It caused the loss of all our freedoms. ( It didn't you know)

[Anonymous]

Hey I like being a weard Railfan. At least it lets others know that I like Trains.
Allan.

[tree68]

And don't forget - the folks around Rochelle (now a well-known supporter of railfans, with the park and all) at first couldn't understand why people would come and sit in their cars at the diamond. We're a strange breed, us railfans.

Knowing exactly what is public and what is private property can be an iffy proposition. Despite the fact that the public may use a given area on a regular basis (say, the parking lot of a retail store), the property may indeed be private. In the case described, the property may be the railroads - even though there is nothing there to indicate so and the public regularly uses it.

About your only defense in court (if you were arrested) might be that due to the property owner allowing uncontrolled public access on a regular basis, you had every reason to believe that you were not trespassing on restricted space. Even grocery stores often have "no loitering" signs though, not to mention local ordinances to that effect.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TimChgo9

Okay folks..... quit the cop bashing, okay? They enforce the laws, and they have a dirty, nasty job dealing with the dregs of humanity on a daily basis. It's a job that 95% of you here wouldn't do, It's a job I wouldn't do. And, this is NOT an insult to any of you, it is just the fact, would any of you want to do that job? BUT, that said, lay off the cops. they are only doing their job. My incident was the first time in 10 years I have ever been harrased, or sent away. I know with all of the terrorism crap out there, everyone is nervous, and everyone is a little more vigilant... what has to be done is a stop to all of the conjecture, and find out if indeed our railfanning actvities are illegal. The "guessing game" needs to stop.

As far as I am concerned, I will still be out there shooting pictures. I am not too worried at this point. I am just going to be more careful, and stay on public property, and only frequent the places that I know I won't be bothered.

While I agree with what you say, there is one implication that maybe we are overlooking: Since many cops spend most of their days dealing with pond scum, I suspect that some may develop a distorted view of the public and can begin to assume that ALL civilians are like the tra***hat they have to keep arresting and dragging off to the jail house. And, not all cops are good guys. Texas just had a case where a rogue cop perjured about 35 African Americans from Tulia into prison on drug charges, and some Dallas officers were found to have use ground-up gypsum wall board for "evidence" in drug dealing cases. Cops are like other humans: Some are good, some are bad, and some of the good ones will turn a blind eye to the shenanigans of the bad ones. And, even some of the good ones can have a bad day. My advise is to not mouth off to a cop, even if you are in the right. Getting mouthy with a cop is a good way to go to jail on a trumped-up charge, when what is really involved is "Contempt of Cop."

[Chris30]

There have been similar previous posts on this subject. Since I'm familar with the town and the area that TimChgo9 was at (see original post on this subject), I'll add my [2c].

Based on Tim's description, I think that he might have been on private property-UP property. Tim, please clarify. Were you on the north or south side of the tracks? Because of the location and the amount of rail traffic, the UP generally does not want you on their property in the area. I know you're upset about it, but the railroad is looking out for you and your safety. Not to mention their own liability. How many other posts are there on this forum referencing accidents where an individual might be at fault, but the railroad is held liable?? I used to live in Elmhurst for ten years and the police officers in that town have always been very freindly. From my casual observance, the Elmhurst police department has a policy to send as many officers/units to a call that are available. I'm guessing the Elmhurst PD got a call from the UP about a trespasser and no UP police available to assist. They don't know what they're dealing with until they get there. Better to have more resources available, than less. Now, Tim if you were on the UP property and they want you off their property, the police have no other choice than to ask you to leave (only pertains to the UP property). If you don't wi***o leave private property, then they have the right to remove you (usually means you're going for a ride downtown kid [;)]). Did you ask the Elmhurst police if you were on the UP property? Did you ask the police if you could move somewhere else?

I'm going to say this as best that I can.... DON'T TREAT THE POLICE LIKE THE ENEMY!!! There doing their job to protect you (believe it or not). Yes, there are good cops, and there are bad cops. They're not robots... you have to deal with the human element. Be PROACTIVE!!! If you're out railfanning (taking photos) and you see the railroad police, don't be afraid to approach them. They might be busy, but usually they appreciate you coming to them (a sign of respect). Be freindly and let them know who you are and what you would like to do. Ask them if it's ok to take photos from a certain location. Don't forget to get a name in case you are approached later by somebody else. Once the railroad police know who you are and what you're doing, they're not as likely to treat you as a threat. If you get approached by somebody who works for the railroad, same thing, be freindly and ask good questions. Don't get upset.

The number thing on any railroader minds these days is safety (or at least it should be). If any employee of a railroad believes you're compromising anybody's safety (including your own) they have the right to ask you to leave or move to another location. Even if you're on public property, show some respect and move. Don't argue with somebody who works for the railroad when you don't. As for dealing with the police on public property and photos being illegal.... that's a touchy subject and depends on the reaction of the poilce. Taking a picture in most cases is not illegal.

I've said too much,
CC

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ericsp

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

QUOTE: Originally posted by ericsp

Just be glad you are not a beetle.
http://www.cdfa.ca.gov/

He does look a bit shifty......bet those antennae are really receivers............

For listening to the railroads' radio channels no doubt. I would not want to be him when he gets arrested down by the tracks. He might "accidentally" get stepped on.

No doubt......truly fearful of the boot of oppression.....

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

QUOTE: Originally posted by ericsp

Just be glad you are not a beetle.
http://www.cdfa.ca.gov/

He does look a bit shifty......bet those antennae are really receivers............

For listening to the railroads' radio channels no doubt. I would not want to be him when he gets arrested down by the tracks. He might "accidentally" get stepped on.

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ericsp

Just be glad you are not a beetle.
http://www.cdfa.ca.gov/

He does look a bit shifty......bet those antennae are really receivers............

[ericsp]

Just be glad you are not a beetle.
http://www.cdfa.ca.gov/

[miniwyo]

I hope when I become a cop (Approx. 1.5 years) I will try to raise awareness to our hobby, and to hopefully change things.

[Junctionfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TimChgo9

Okay folks..... quit the cop bashing, okay? They enforce the laws, and they have a dirty, nasty job dealing with the dregs of humanity on a daily basis. It's a job that 95% of you here wouldn't do, It's a job I wouldn't do. And, this is NOT an insult to any of you, it is just the fact, would any of you want to do that job? BUT, that said, lay off the cops. they are only doing their job. My incident was the first time in 10 years I have ever been harrased, or sent away. I know with all of the terrorism crap out there, everyone is nervous, and everyone is a little more vigilant... what has to be done is a stop to all of the conjecture, and find out if indeed our railfanning actvities are illegal. The "guessing game" needs to stop.

As far as I am concerned, I will still be out there shooting pictures. I am not too worried at this point. I am just going to be more careful, and stay on public property, and only frequent the places that I know I won't be bothered.

I wouldn't mind being a cop at all. With the training I recieved, I would know the difference between a dreg of society or a suspicious possible terrorist (with bulletins from Dept. Homeland Security) and a tourist; especially if I wasn't a rookie and had the first-hand experience to "know the streets".

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan.

Abuse of power.....power hungry! Shall I go on?

Please do.....I'm sure you've got years of experience to draw from..................power hungry???

been to Mexico lately?
How about Italy or France, any of the African countries..........puhleese......grow up.

[TimChgo9]

Okay folks..... quit the cop bashing, okay? They enforce the laws, and they have a dirty, nasty job dealing with the dregs of humanity on a daily basis. It's a job that 95% of you here wouldn't do, It's a job I wouldn't do. And, this is NOT an insult to any of you, it is just the fact, would any of you want to do that job? BUT, that said, lay off the cops. they are only doing their job. My incident was the first time in 10 years I have ever been harrased, or sent away. I know with all of the terrorism crap out there, everyone is nervous, and everyone is a little more vigilant... what has to be done is a stop to all of the conjecture, and find out if indeed our railfanning actvities are illegal. The "guessing game" needs to stop.

As far as I am concerned, I will still be out there shooting pictures. I am not too worried at this point. I am just going to be more careful, and stay on public property, and only frequent the places that I know I won't be bothered.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by smalling_60626

A friend of mine was out in Oak Park (IL) shooting where the Chicago L and the UP West Line run parallel. A Metra bull ordered him off the property. My friend protested that "he was on public property" and the cop said "You're on METRA property."

How are we supposed to treat these quasi-governmental, quasi-private, quasi-public agencies. Sounds to me like the cop got out of hand but what is the average person minding his own business to do if he doesn't want to wind up with an ACLU lawyer or launch a false arrest/malicious prosecution suit?

Abuse of power.....power hungry! Shall I go on?

[Anonymous]

A friend of mine was out in Oak Park (IL) shooting where the Chicago L and the UP West Line run parallel. A Metra bull ordered him off the property. My friend protested that "he was on public property" and the cop said "You're on METRA property."

How are we supposed to treat these quasi-governmental, quasi-private, quasi-public agencies. Sounds to me like the cop got out of hand but what is the average person minding his own business to do if he doesn't want to wind up with an ACLU lawyer or launch a false arrest/malicious prosecution suit?

[railfan619]

Sometimes I wonder about what is safe and what is not but like some of the. Other people that have written on this one you should get a bunch of friends and even the media to come over with you and then have some one call the police and see how fast they come a runnin I betcha not even one squad will even show up. Or if they do show offer them some dougnuts form Dunken Doughnuts [(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D]

[88gta350]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ChrisBARailfan

and once a freedom is taken it is rarely returned.

That much at least is true.

[ChrisBARailfan]

I was indeed talking about Washington Park, I was at the east end parked near the exit from under Union Station, I was out of my vehicle and was standing by the wall. The first contact I had was with a KCPD officer, he and I conversed for several minutes. As he walked on foot through the park he told me to have fun and be safe. Minutes later a BNSF Police explorer parked behind my vehicle and that is when I was asked to leave. I have watched movements from Washington Park and the Union Station parking lot for months with no problems.

I will be honest that I rarely watch planes at Wheeler Downtown airport, but you notice that the spot on the west side where you could park is gone. It was closed prior to construction and according to aviation workers will not be coming back. I however work during the day and do most watching in late evening or night. For years I sat on the I-29 outer road on the south side of the airport along the flight path in the gravel that runs along the outer road. Now signs have been posted along both outer roads advised no stopping is permitted. I have been asked to leave that spot by both MHP and Airport police due to security concerns.

As for the Air Show construction cancelled this years show and next years I believe, but after that "security and scheduling concerns" will dictate if the airshow returns. That was from the Kansas City Star from several weeks ago.

I am not being alarmist in saying that I believe that Kansas City and other local authorities have used "security concerns" to accomplish goals that before they could not have and once a freedom is taken it is rarely returned.

[CSXrules4eva]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF4ever

I don't fault the police on the scene here--they have a job to do and often any misguided application of their policy is the result of orders from higher up. Not sure I agree with the earlier assessment about someone with a camera and scanner looking like an intelligence operative. Maybe a BAD intelligence operative. The pros--and you have to put Al Qaida in that class--do their surveillance far more discretely. I'm sure the sight of someone taking photos or listening to a scanner can get a 911 caller worked up but the reality is that the really good people doing reconnaissance will never be noticed or will be ignored if they are.

Eveytime I go to my local train watching locations which are allong the NEC, and allong the NS Harrisburg Division in PA, I always have my scanner on, maybe in my back pocket or something., and I have little paper pads and a pen, and lastly I have the camera. I don't get harrased too much in there locations. The main question I get from people is "Do you work for the railroad?" Pretty interesting huh?? I had one engineer come up to me and ask me was I a trainmaster. I personally didn't think I looked like one. lol So far I haven't ran into too much disturbance from police, except in the South Philly area around Greenwhich Yard in South Philly. So I tend not to go there anymore since, the police are going to be jerks about it.

[Anonymous]

To chrisBARailfan, with all due respect, what are you smoking? Were you at Washington Park watching trains? This is the only park near the station. I find it hard to believe you rousted for watching trains here without provocation and as the for the BNSF officer I find it hard to believe one was patroling in this area as I have never seen one here and there are plenty of city police and Union Station security to cover this area.

In regard to Downtown Airport, I often park at the south end near Executive Beechcraft, on Lou Holland Drive, at the public parking area to have lunch and never has anyone ever said anything to me.

The Air Show was cancelled primarily due to the extending of the runways and the construction associated with this project.

Adding to the paranoia of the day by making blanket statments is culpable. Are there individual instances of abuse of course and we can't access many of the places we once did, with that said, to create the impression that the Kansas City area is in lock down is acompletely unfair portrayal of the area.

While railfanning, I have been asked by police what I am doing and after explaining my activity I have been allowed to continue. I welcome their inquiries, as most likely they will see me often and I like to assure them I am not a problem for them.

Being questioned within reason is not out of line, it's their job, should you have a problem with this, perhaps you should stay at home and not ruin things for the rest of us.

Ford Simcox

[chad thomas]

True, If it aint broke don't fix it.

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kevikens

It will do little good to confine your concerns to writing something on this forum. You must get up, get out and do something constructive as several of us here in NJ have done. <Snip>

True enough. Talking about it here, though, may spur some folks to take that action, and certainly helps make all of us aware that we're not doing anything illegal, despite claims by people in authority to the contrary.

In NJ you had a problem and got it fixed. Sometimes trying to fix a problem before it occurs actually causes more problems. That's why I haven't done anything yet here...

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF4ever

I don't fault the police on the scene here--they have a job to do and often any misguided application of their policy is the result of orders from higher up. Not sure I agree with the earlier assessment about someone with a camera and scanner looking like an intelligence operative. Maybe a BAD intelligence operative. The pros--and you have to put Al Qaida in that class--do their surveillance far more discretely. I'm sure the sight of someone taking photos or listening to a scanner can get a 911 caller worked up but the reality is that the really good people doing reconnaissance will never be noticed or will be ignored if they are.

The point is that to the lady driving the minivan home from Target it looks suspicious. And I am pretty familiar with surveillance concepts and you would be very surprised how open many of them are.

Dan

[kevikens]

It will do little good to confine your concerns to writing something on this forum. You must get up, get out and do something constructive as several of us here in NJ have done. When NJT tried to stop railfanning by forbidding photography of its equipmenmt from anywhere including the sidewalks of public property we contacted our local ACLU by written letter. You must do it this way. They will not accept e-mails and phone calls. Get the address of your local ACLU from the internet and write them with the specifics. They did a good job here in NJ, went right ot the state's Attorney General and NJT. We received written copies of correspondence between the Attorney General and NJT informing NJT of the legality of rail photography from public property. I travel with that letter with me and have shown it to NJT and local police. They are surprised to see this but do back off. Many police do not know the law. If you want to keep on railfanning you had better do something tangible to educate law enforcement. Across the river in Phila. last year the police took into custody two photogs taking pictures of oil refineries from a bridge claiming it was illegal. It cost the city several thousand dollars to settle the ensuing uproar. As distasteful as it might seem if we do not protect our interests we will lose them. Don't be content to write something on here, write your local ACLU.

[Anonymous]

Earlier this year, a friend of mine was videotaping a Norfolk Southern train at about 9 PM. His video camera has a flashing blue light on it, so, we believe that must have alerted someone, either the conductor or a neighbor. Anyway, they called the city police. A police officer arrived and asked my friend what he was doing and asked to see the video camera. After inspecting the device, the officer said that it was certainly all right if my friend video tapes trains as long as he is careful and does not trespass on the railroad. I recently talked to another police officer who said that it is not illegal to watch trains and even take pictures of them. He said that it is illegal and dangerous to interfere with railroad property though. Now remember, this is in Southern Illinois. Some other parts of the country may have different laws about video taping trains. I know for a fact that you can video tape and take pictures of trains at CSX's Howell Yards in Evansville Indiana and you can take pictures of trains at Princeton Indiana. Also, Effingham Illinois allows people to video tape and take pictures of trains at their depot.

[BNSF4ever]

I don't fault the police on the scene here--they have a job to do and often any misguided application of their policy is the result of orders from higher up. Not sure I agree with the earlier assessment about someone with a camera and scanner looking like an intelligence operative. Maybe a BAD intelligence operative. The pros--and you have to put Al Qaida in that class--do their surveillance far more discretely. I'm sure the sight of someone taking photos or listening to a scanner can get a 911 caller worked up but the reality is that the really good people doing reconnaissance will never be noticed or will be ignored if they are.

[tree68]

I have sevaral copies of the editorial, and appropriate cover letters, ready to send to our local police chief, sheriff, and even the state police zone commander. I haven't sent them yet because we are currently dealing with another photo issue - people who take digital pictures at accidents and similar events, often with camera phones, and send them to the media, particularly a local news website. There have been times when the pictures hit the web almost before emergency responders arrived on the scene. There are issues of privacy and crime investigation involved, and it only promises to get messier.

I also still have them on the table at home because I don't know that we've had a problem here yet - and I don't want to trigger one.

As with most issues, and as has already been said very well, education is the answer. Law enforcement is being deluged with information about threats, real and imagined, not to mention the stuff they have to deal with everyday besides. We have the potential to be just one more thorn in their sides unless they know who we are and why we are what we are. A cop just coming off a messy domestic violence call isn't in the mood to listen to somebody spout off their rights - all they know is they got a call for a suspicious person and there is something on the clipboard back at headquarters about threats to rail facilities. You do the math.

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mehrlich

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

Okay gents......time to throttle back a bit. First of all Tim, you did the right thing. Diffuse the situation and seek answers in a non-combative method.

There is alot of confusion regarding what can and can't be done, and that extends to the law enforcement communites. And when in doubt, they are probably going to default to telling you not to do it. Ed gave some good advice, and I'd present what I found out to the watch supervisor and take it from there. No cop wants to be the guy that let the next London, 9/11 or OKC happen again.

So if you see someone taking pictures of a railyard, the natural presumption would be that they were a railfan....right? But what if they were middle eastern or Chinese and taking pictures of a railyard or station? What if they were taking pictures of an airport or an aircraft carrier...from public property? Would you be suspicious then? How about your house? (Anybody have a home appraised lately or a nosy home owners association?) Folks are quick to say stupid cops, barney fife, etc...but these folks are trying to do a job, often with less than perfect guidance and to them a railfan (hmm guy with camera, maybe a map, notebook, scanner) taking pictures of a potential target looks exactly like what he is .......an intelligence operative. Because at the basic level that is what a railfan is...an intelligence collector ...observing, noting, and recording data....albeit for personal vice government use. So maybe, just maybe, you could cut these guys some slack and do as Tim did. You want to beat the terrorists, yeah don't give in, but do it by helping the good guys do their job better, not by being a childish***and adding fuel to the fire or there really will be problems....

Tim you're off to a good start. There's some good (and bad) advice offered above.

Dan

Thank you Dan, for a little common sense and sanity.

mike

Thanks Mike......

Just a couple of other thoughts.....

First, I am huge believer in the constitution and civil rights, and although not perfect it's the best around. It only stays the best by jelously guarding the ideals that framed it. I'm not espousing anybody roll over and take it, if it's wrong. But there are ways to achieve and end, and arguing with one cop is not going to change things and only result in an unpeasant opportunity to expand one's cultural horizons while sitting in lockup. Unless you truly want to press the system, go to jail, go to court, then find an attorney to take it up the court system for you (I don't have the time myself or desire to have a jailhouse affair), then the educational approach working with the law enforcement folks is best. If that fails, we all have elected representatives at differing levels of local, state and federal government. There is a pendulum swing that occurs in political world of event, over-reaction, corrective action, back to middle. Sometimes it takes a little shove to get back to middle............take it for what it's worth.


BTW...for those of you that haven't travelled outside the US, we have it real, REAL good here....

Dan

[chad thomas]

I wasn't very clear in my previous post. I don't mean get hostile with the cops. Just don't let them get away with it. Talk to there boss. And if that don't work talk to there bosses boss. So on and so on.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

Okay gents......time to throttle back a bit. First of all Tim, you did the right thing. Diffuse the situation and seek answers in a non-combative method.

There is alot of confusion regarding what can and can't be done, and that extends to the law enforcement communites. And when in doubt, they are probably going to default to telling you not to do it. Ed gave some good advice, and I'd present what I found out to the watch supervisor and take it from there. No cop wants to be the guy that let the next London, 9/11 or OKC happen again.

So if you see someone taking pictures of a railyard, the natural presumption would be that they were a railfan....right? But what if they were middle eastern or Chinese and taking pictures of a railyard or station? What if they were taking pictures of an airport or an aircraft carrier...from public property? Would you be suspicious then? How about your house? (Anybody have a home appraised lately or a nosy home owners association?) Folks are quick to say stupid cops, barney fife, etc...but these folks are trying to do a job, often with less than perfect guidance and to them a railfan (hmm guy with camera, maybe a map, notebook, scanner) taking pictures of a potential target looks exactly like what he is .......an intelligence operative. Because at the basic level that is what a railfan is...an intelligence collector ...observing, noting, and recording data....albeit for personal vice government use. So maybe, just maybe, you could cut these guys some slack and do as Tim did. You want to beat the terrorists, yeah don't give in, but do it by helping the good guys do their job better, not by being a childish***and adding fuel to the fire or there really will be problems....

Tim you're off to a good start. There's some good (and bad) advice offered above.

Dan

Thank you Dan, for a little common sense and sanity.

mike

[88gta350]

Next time you're stopped for railfanning, simply ask the officer to show you where in the crimes code it states that photographing trains from public property is illegal. They all should be carrying copies of the crimes code and vehicle code with them, so just ask to see the law. That should do a lot to end the situation right there. Cops get daily bullitens and such about BOLOs (Be On the Lookout) and confuse them with actual enacted laws. You can drive up to the front gate of my nuclear power plant and start snapping pictures all you want. As long as you don't cross the property line, there's not a darn thing I can do about it. We can call the state police to come scare you off, or question you, but the taking of the pictures by itself is not illegal.

[dharmon]

Okay gents......time to throttle back a bit. First of all Tim, you did the right thing. Diffuse the situation and seek answers in a non-combative method.

There is alot of confusion regarding what can and can't be done, and that extends to the law enforcement communites. And when in doubt, they are probably going to default to telling you not to do it. Ed gave some good advice, and I'd present what I found out to the watch supervisor and take it from there. No cop wants to be the guy that let the next London, 9/11 or OKC happen again.

So if you see someone taking pictures of a railyard, the natural presumption would be that they were a railfan....right? But what if they were middle eastern or Chinese and taking pictures of a railyard or station? What if they were taking pictures of an airport or an aircraft carrier...from public property? Would you be suspicious then? How about your house? (Anybody have a home appraised lately or a nosy home owners association?) Folks are quick to say stupid cops, barney fife, etc...but these folks are trying to do a job, often with less than perfect guidance and to them a railfan (hmm guy with camera, maybe a map, notebook, scanner) taking pictures of a potential target looks exactly like what he is .......an intelligence operative. Because at the basic level that is what a railfan is...an intelligence collector ...observing, noting, and recording data....albeit for personal vice government use. So maybe, just maybe, you could cut these guys some slack and do as Tim did. You want to beat the terrorists, yeah don't give in, but do it by helping the good guys do their job better, not by being a childish***and adding fuel to the fire or there really will be problems....

Tim you're off to a good start. There's some good (and bad) advice offered above.

Dan

[chad thomas]

[censored] THAT !!!!!!!! Don't back down. I would have left the scene and immediatly started climbing the chain of command untill I got to someone that would straighten these boys out. And involving the media might not be a bad idea either. Those guys eat that stuff up. Now I understand in TimChgo9 could have a lot more at risk because of his job, so for him it's a little different. As for the rest of us STAND YOUR GROUND!!!!!
IF YOU DON'T THEY WIN !!!!!!!

[Anonymous]

Sounds like the cops are a bunch of Barney Fife morons that get a good deal excitment over the amount of power they must enforce. Must be the local Doughnut huts daily offerings were stale and they decided its better to mess with a guy taking pictures of trains rather than searching out any real crime that may require them to fill out paper work.

[Junctionfan]

This is getting way out there. What the heck is going on with the law enforcement everywhere because it isn't just the U.S that has bouts of law forgetfulness.

I think CNN, ABC, CBC,CBS and many others need to do a story about railfans and dispel some of the lies and negative attitude that has been conjured up by a bunch of hysterics and paranoia.......rediculous.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by EMT49

this hole thing has gotten out of hand this is just the govermets way to try to control us [:(!] we pay taxes and should be allowed to get pics of trains as long as your not tresspassing.i would have stood up for my right to do so . i would go to the same spot over and over just to let them know there not scareing me. and i would try to get other people to do the same and maybe the media if they are intrested. we the people of the us are letting the goverment take our freedum because of some terrorists. we need to let them know we wont stand for by litters to you local news paper and goverment officals


sorry about spelling i know it sucks [:(]

I know where you are coming from.....I my self am about to give up Railfanning forever!. The Terrorists have won in this chicken *** nation. And so for the fat cops in this nation too. And I stand behind my words too. Cops have better thing to do that go chasing away some God D*mn Railfan,Why don't they go crack down on the METH in this country. Allan.

[peterjenkinson1956]

the cops know when it is against the law to stop someone for steeling a car or being a rapist or killing someone.... however they do not have a clue what to do when they have a situation that they have no knowedge of but they can control it by calling your bluff... if you laydown and let some one kick you then dont complain when they kick you harder next time... instead of complaining to a forum (no insult intended ) use the forum ...organise the train fans and members of this forum to gather at places where people have been arrested or harrased by the cops ... if the readers of trains magazine cannot get together to organise a public showing of streanth and show the cops that they should not harras people who are going about their lives and doing something that i am sure no terrorist would ever do.. americans.. please stand up for yourselfs so that the next time i come to your wonderful country i dont get arrested for telling a cop to "go far off" thanks peter

[Anonymous]

this hole thing has gotten out of hand this is just the govermets way to try to control us [:(!] we pay taxes and should be allowed to get pics of trains as long as your not tresspassing.i would have stood up for my right to do so . i would go to the same spot over and over just to let them know there not scareing me. and i would try to get other people to do the same and maybe the media if they are intrested. we the people of the us are letting the goverment take our freedum because of some terrorists. we need to let them know we wont stand for by litters to you local news paper and goverment officals


sorry about spelling i know it sucks [:(]

[miniwyo]

I was stopped earlier this evening for standing outside my local MR club watching a train before I left for the night, the cop told me it was private property and I was loitering, nothing about the camera I had in my hand, which was at one point in time in his sight pointed at a train. I just explained to him that i was a member of the club and was allowed to be there and he understood and left.

[miniwyo]

I was stopped earlier this evening for standing outside my local MR club watching a train before I left for the night, the cop told me it was private property and I was loitering, nothing about the camera I had in my hand, which was at one point in time in his sight pointed at a train. I just explained to him that i was a member of the club and was allowed to be there and he understood and left.

[ChrisBARailfan]

It is more than just the local police though. Just last night I was railfanning (without a camera) in a Kansas City park that overlooks the entrance to Union Station and the BNSF Transcon when a BNSF Police Officer informed me that I was now restricted from observing train movements by order of the DHS. I complied and left, but as I was leaving I was advised that I would be detained for questioning and possibly arrested if I was stopped again.

It is getting worse and worse every day that I must give up more freedoms in the name of terrorism. I apologize the New Yorkers but I am much more likely to get killed by a street hood than a terrorist. At Kansas City International Airport and Wheeler Downtown airport you can no longer stop and look at or photograph planes, the airport police will confiscate the film, and the Kansas City Airshow was cancelled in part due to security concerns, what next? I feel like they already have won.

[RudyRockvilleMD]

Tim: This sounds like a replay of the recent Morton Grove incident. You are totally right on all counts especially to leave since who knows the cop could have trumped up a charge. Since you are employed by your town's local policedepartment there probaly isn't too much you can do for fear of retailiation. I like Ed Blylsard's approach work through your local district attorney or possibly the state's attorney for your county. Another possibility, and perhaps better, contact your local ACLU or even your local newspaper. You might also contact another web site, www.photopermit.org.

As for photographers' rights I suggest you download a brochure on photographers rights which was written by Bert KragesII who is an attorney who deals in intellectual property in Portland Oregon. His website is www.krages.com/phoright.htm. I am retired from the U.S. government, and I used to work as an engineer and a manager in a defense lab, so I know there are no laws against photographing anything in the public domain from public property unless there is an identifiable strategic defense installation or nuclear facility in the nearby background.

Jim Wrinn's editorial in the august, 2005 Trains about cops getting to know and understand railfans better is excellent. I hope a copy is sent to the chief of your police department who needs to be educated.

Rudy

[peterjenkinson1956]

hello tim... why dont you become a rebel and go back there with lots of your friend and maybe some members of the media... i am sure a discrete phone call to the local police will have them racing over there to round up the terrorists.. sounds like the sort of stuff the black people in the 60,s had to deal with and they won against the police by using the media... ( dont let them kick you out of there )....peter

[BNSF4ever]

I'll say it again--if local law enforcement or transit/railroad police believe that terrorists are relying on railfans to gather reconnaissance they are sadly mistaken. The terrorists have already done their research as we have found from captured documents found in Afghanistan and elsewhere.

[Anonymous]

Ok Ok......Ill take your word for it.

[Anonymous]

Jeez guys, we keep going over and over and over this subject. Stay on public property and you're fine.
mike

[ericsp]

The location where I railfan is close to a city police substation and a CHP station. It is rare when a few police cars do not pass me while railfanning. The only time any stopped was when one CHP officer stopped to ask if my vehicle broke down. I said no and thanked him for stopping, then he left. Yes, I have photographed trains when a police car was driving down the road.

[edblysard]

Yes, it is.
Or are you implying that Eric and Mike, from Trains magazine, along with the thousand of other photographers that take train photos every day, are breaking “the law”?

Ignorance of your basic rights and ignorance of the law by law enforcement officials is stupid.
Haven’t you been paying attention?
If you are on public property, you can take all the photos of just about anything you want too, period..
Some military bases, and certain nuclear facilities, are off limits, but anything BNSF, UP and all the class 1s run are free game if you are on public property.
Now, on their private property, you need their permission.



You quit, they win.
Ed

[Anonymous]

So what you are saying edblysard, Is that Taking Photo's of Trains is legal. Right?
Allan.

[edblysard]

Unless your watch comander can show you where the US Constitution has been declared as set aside by the US Supreme Court...(and they cant even do that) your watch commander and everyone you talked to is wrong.

Take a copy of that editorial to him or her...and talk to your local District Attorney, or the US Attorney for your district.

UTAH PHONE FAX
Paul M. Warner, USA*
185 South State Street, Suite 400, Salt Lake City 84111 [phone] [phone]

Ask him!

Ed