Railfanning, Homeland Security, and what we can and cannot do...

[Anonymous]

Mr. Bruno is right: paved public roads and sidewalks are a railfan's best friend.
[8D]

[Anonymous]

Let's get to the nitty-gritty of this incident. I know this area and there is no park near this location. The UP/Metra R.O.W. from the toll road (I-294) to Addison St. is landscaped and very park like but it is the UP/Metra R.O.W. If you were "inside the trees" you were on the railroad property. Stick to the grade crossing at Poplar Ave.

[LVJJJ]

"Wabneri" is right. I worked in a government office for 23 years where I was in charge of enforcing zoning and subdivision regulations. Prior to the Oklahoma City bombings, we didn't worry too much when customers got angry with us (not too many people like zoning laws, go figure). We were instructed to keep them in the office and work with them to calm them down. After Oklahoma City, we were instructed to call 9-1-1 at the first sign of anger on the part of the customer. We had code words to clear the office and for someone to call 9-1-1. As a supervisor I had to stay with the angry person and protect the rest of the office staff until the sheriff arrived. I retired in 2000, so I would imagine that after 9-11-01 security is even more strict in my old office. So, whether we railfans like it or not, any government enforcement officer is not going to stand around and argue the Constitution with you. I strongly recommend that if asked to leave, you do so very politely and take up the matter with the appropriate authorities at a later date. Larry in Las Vegas. (It is true that law enforcement is rather lax here in Nevada, there just aren't a lot of trains).

[chad thomas]

I thought the politicaly correct term was turbo top. But I like sheet heads better. [(-D][8D]

[Anonymous]

I must interject that the term "towel heads" is not politically correct, nor is it technically correct. They do not wear towels on their heads.. It is a little sheet. Therefore, from now on please refer to them as "little sheet heads".
[;)][:D]

[chad thomas]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Ed Dalton

I was in Law Enforcement for 23 1/2 years. The answers come from the top (Sr NCO) NOT from the 9-1-1 operator, who is most cases have not a clue what they are talking about. Give the cops a break, they've got a very hard job to do, but at the same time - do not let them give you static whilst on public property taking photos's of trains. TELL them to check with their Sr NCO at headquarters, and then again, go above their head the next day until you get the proper answers!

I agree. The way to handle it is to just that.[;)]

Check out all the new posters on this thread. Welcome to the forum guys.[8D]

[alstom]

In Fostoria and Greenwich, Ohio, cops usually pass by up to 6 times a day. If you're not from around there, they'll usually ask you about it. Berea, Ohio is totally public. You can stand as close as you want to 75 mph trains and you won't get yelled at. They've never yelled at me for taking pictures (filming) the trains, although there was a couple of times where it almost happened, but somebody else warned me ahead of time. I say cops should loosen up and quit being such jerks[:(!]!!

[Chris_S68]

Re: the original post.
This is nothing new in Elmhurst. I grew up there, and believe me, they always show up with plenty of backup no matter how innocuous the situation may seem.
If I'm envisioning things correctly, your location was somewhat off the beaten path, so it's not too surprising that you might draw some attention, particularly later in the evening when the shadows are getting long. Aside from that, the truth is some railroaders plain don't like railfans - maybe someone wanted to send some grief your way. When I was on the CNW, railfans were often referred to as "FRNs".
9/11 and the Patriot Act has muddied the waters, but as far as confusion as to what the laws are, that's nothing new either. Starting trouble would have done just that, so you handled things well. As others have mentioned, there's other, more appropriate ways of resolving the matter.

[Anonymous]

*mandelswamp* I read your post, not sure what to think, sound like you know what your talking about, but like I said, I heard and read, where you cant take pic's in the NY subway, not planning on going to NY anytime soon, but just wondering why I keep hearing different things, Doug
P.S. I wish i could think of the right thing to say about the london bombing's, and all the rest of what's going on in our world, at least when I'm out taking RR pic's it's a great escape from the troubles of the world

[Anonymous]

I’ve read all the posts, is it true that you can't take pic's in the NY subway system? I’m sure I’ve heard and read that more than once, (they busted a 12 year old girl for eating a french fry in the subway system, was in all the news papers last week about her appearance in court) and isn't the subway a public transportation system? public property not private?
Thanks, Doug
Madison, Ohio

[WhistlinDixie]

I haven't read every last post in this thread, but in a quick glance I didn't see any mention of Rochelle. If it is illegal to take pix of trains, then Rochelle must be like the Nevada of trainwatching--you know, the place where you can do things that are illegal everywhere else. I suppose that means there will soon be casinos and whorehouses in Rochelle (for those of you who have never visited that boring town in boring northern Illinois, the very thought of anything exotic there is funny as hell).

As for it being illegal to even watch trains, perhaps we ought to test the law by sitting on some public bench near a wifi hotspot, with a laptop clearly showing the Rochelle webcam. It would be good to scribble notes as we see trains appear, and perhaps wear trenchcoats as well.

I hope it is obvious I'm just being a smartass. The country seems to have come down with a serious case of the Ninnies. As others have pointed out, if you have any conception of statistical probabilities at all, you'll put terrorists far down on your list of things to fear. Living in Wisconsin as I do (Motto: "We welcome Illinoisans bearing tax dollars"), where alcohol consumption is much greater than the national average, I mostly fear inebriated idiots in the opposite lane of traffic.

[Anonymous]

Protesting sounds great when you are being stopped by police. I know, a RR *** stopped me for taking pictures of a old turn table on the NS.

But, even if the policeman is wrong in his interpretation of the law, the minute you refuse to move on, you have started a potential chain reaction that will put you on the losing end of the law as you have disobeyed a direct order from a law enforcement officer. (He will claim that he had probable cause to stop you, and trust me that all in encompassing claim will be tough to dispute).

Now the charges start to mount. Resisting arrest, dis-obeying a lawful order, and disorderly conduct (if you create a disturbance, ie arguing, foul language,etc) Then comes the confiscation of your ($1500.00 or more digitial) camera with the potential of permanent damage. And after you are put in the paddy wagon, your vehicle will be towed for "your protection".

Oh, I forgot, you might be thumped on and rough handled cause the officer thought you were resisting him. And on and on it goes. (lawyer fees, court appearance and fines and jail time???)

One other thing. The courts and the law enforcement officers are tight. Judges trust and believe their officer over you any day of the week and twice on Sunday. If a Judge finds out an officer lies to him ( that is if the judge is an honest guy) then an officer has a tough time in court. But this is few and far between.

In other words, if stopped, you need to make a decision on how you want to handle the situation. Will I keep railfaining, you bet. Since my name and SSN is now logged in the files of NS in Roanoke Virginie, I'll have to be more careful.
And so should you!

[Anonymous]

howdy.

Is it just me or is this entire terror level rating thing getting a bit out of hand? Every time Osama sneezes in the wrong direction we raise the level. I think that we have become oversensitive to this whole thing. Yes I agree that what happened in NYC, and london was terrobile, yet I believe the day that we are worried about fellow foamers shooting photos, the terrorists have won. Now I dont know what kind of troubles you guys are having out west ( Im from Erie Pa,) with both UP and BNSF, but I think this is rediculus. We have never had a problem here in sunny valley with the police questioning railfans, Because we have places to cater to us. We have museums, and resturaunts, heck evev crossings that the cops wont come near, especially to question a innocent railfan. My suggestion to you is to do as many of my commrades in rails have done, and establish a place of railroad watching. Weather a resturaunt a Wye, or a empty parking lot, if it will serve as a refuge for railfans than its serving its purpuse. Isnt it? I realize that its not as good as the your union station, or the bridge overlooking the engine facility, but thats the world we live in today. And if it lasts another 2 weeks or for the duration of the hobby its just something were going to have to live with. Also alerting the media might work. But I wouldnt expect a change anytime soon. Thats the way I see it.

Many thanks for your time
Keep on railroading.
G.W.R

[Ed Dalton]

I was in Law Enforcement for 23 1/2 years. The answers come from the top (Sr NCO) NOT from the 9-1-1 operator, who is most cases have not a clue what they are talking about. Give the cops a break, they've got a very hard job to do, but at the same time - do not let them give you static whilst on public property taking photos's of trains. TELL them to check with their Sr NCO at headquarters, and then again, go above their head the next day until you get the proper answers!

[Anonymous]

I live in Rochelle and have been a Railfan all my life. We are very fortunate to have a place we can go and do what we do best. Come on out and take advantage of what we have here and enjoy your hobby hassle free.

[Anonymous]

the situation in london twice lately has everybody extra jumpy right at the moment.
i expect it will settle down if there are no more immediate attacks. it was the same
after 9-11 in new york city. it's probably rougher in the bigger cities than elsewhere.
confrontations are nothing new, they have been going on for years. during the racial
crisis in alabama in the 50's, police were harder on railfans because they were jumpy
about everything and more prone to excess. crosstie

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cttrr

I am a CBS cameraman in Chicago, we are having the same type of problems at our jobs. I am in a slightly better position, in that when I stand my ground I keep rolling tape to get the whole exchange recorded, and we have lawyers on call to handle the problem if I get arrested (which I have not yet). I just recite "any object visible with the naked eye from a public place can be photographed". I do not ever inject opinion into the conversation only let the cops make illegal responses to my statement. I carry the photog. bill rights printed from the website quoted above with me at all times, both a paper copy and as a doc. in my palm pilot.

I also work at a CBS affiliate. So far, we have not run into major hassles when photographing chemical plants, railroads, and the like. I do have a state police-issued press ID, though.

My $0.02: First, make reasonably certain you're on public property. In other words, if the railroad has the area posted, don't go past the sign.

If even though you may be on public property peacefully railfanning, and a police officer comes up to you and starts asking questions, be polite. We're talking manners akin to what was the norm at grandma's house for Sunday dinner 50 years ago here. Being polite and nonconfrontational will reduce the stress factor for both of you.

Remind the officer politely that you have a right to take pictures, so long as it's not of any forbidden location, such as a military post. If he tells you you're on private property, ask him to point out where public property ends and private property begins. Be prepared to pack up and leave if the officer gets a power rush from his badge.

If, despite your best efforts, things get seriously ugly, go public. Beat on the local television stations' assignment desk or news director. Remind them that if you are restricted from taking pictures on public property, they might well be next. Railroads are pathetic at press relations; a blast of negative media coverage could persuade them to lighten up a bit.

Keep in mind the city police officers are human beings too, and would probably rather be anywhere except near the railroad tracks chasing railfans away. The Bull, though, is another matter entirely.

[Anonymous]

There is more hysteria than security in Homeland Security. It's amazing how far people, including professionals like law enforcement, will go despite their gross ignorance. We live is scarey times--and not all from terrorists.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mandelswamp

There are now signs posted at NY bridges (including railroad ones) and tunnels that photography of such structures is outlawed.

This is a violation of your civil rights. Write to the ACLU about this.

Sincerely,
Daniel Parks

[nobullchitbids]

First of all, "supersede" is not spelled: s-u-p-e-r-c-e-e-d. And no legislation, even an Act of Congress, "supersedes" genuinely asserted constitutional rights, whether they be asserted by "towelheads" (I assume you mean Moslems but perhaps include Hindis as well) or anyone else.

[kicksvette]

For anybody harrassed in the Chicago area while railfanning, I would suggest contacting the Chicago Tribune. The Trib broke the original story about railfans being hassled while waiting for a retired loco earlier this year. The story resulted in Metra publicly announcing that trains are not off limits. I'm sure the Trib would enjoy a follow up story about this lunacy continuing.

Glad I wasn't hassled yesterday while enjoying Rochelle. Maybe they haven't realized that the Trains Webcam out there is really a terrorist plot.

[Anonymous]

Sounds like we have lost the battle.
Allan.

[Anonymous]

Unfortunately, The Patriot Act now superceeds our constitutional rights. This is the reason for the increased objectionable activities by the police. If rail fans want to challenge the abuse, in the name of "National Security," your efforts should be made at the legislative level. Also contact organizations like the NRHS, the NMRA, fan magazine publishers (like the fine people who run this site) and succintly show your support for some way rail fans can work within the system to be recognized as a friend of railroads and national security.

If we don't (as long as Towelheads build backpack bombs) our legal access to "The Free Show" is hereby terminated.

[cttrr]

I am a CBS cameraman in Chicago, we are having the same type of problems at our jobs. I am in a slightly better position, in that when I stand my ground I keep rolling tape to get the whole exchange recorded, and we have lawyers on call to handle the problem if I get arrested (which I have not yet). I just recite "any object visible with the naked eye from a public place can be photographed". I do not ever inject opinion into the conversation only let the cops make illegal responses to my statement. I carry the photog. bill rights printed from the website quoted above with me at all times, both a paper copy and as a doc. in my palm pilot.

[mandelswamp]

Currently, NYCRR Title 21.Chapter XXI - METROPOLITAN TRANSPORTATION AUTHORITY SUBCHAPTER D - RULES AND REGULATIONS GOVERNING THE CONDUCT AND SAFETY OF THE PUBLIC - Part 1050.
Rules Governing the Conduct and Safety of the Public in the Use of the Facilities of New York City Transit Authority and Manhattan and Bronx Surface Transit Operating Authority
Section 1050.9 Restricted areas and activities. Part C states:
Photography, filming or video recording in any facility or conveyance is permitted except that ancillary equipment such as lights, reflectors or tripods may not be used. Members of the press holding valid identification issued by the New York City Police Department are hereby authorized to use necessary ancillary equipment. All photographic activity must be conducted in accordance with the provision of these Rules.

Following the Madrid bombings, the MTA considered changing the code to forbid taking photos in the subways but there was enough of a public outcry that the MTA backed off. With the London bombings, things are tense and the MTA is again rethinking its position. There are now signs posted at NY bridges (including railroad ones) and tunnels that photography of such structures is outlawed.

When you consider all of the hazardous materials that trains transport, you can understand why authorities are jumpy about individuals photographing freight trains or even many railside industries. My suggestion would be to notify the PR of the railroad or industry and the local police and explain that you are a railfan who would like to take some photographs from plublic property at specific locations and ask them for permission. I believe that in most cases they will give you that permission and the railroad or industry workers and police patrols will be alerted to your possible presence and therefore won't be jumpy if they see you with a camera in hand. Stay away if you cannot get the permission.

[nobullchitbids]

I agree that the confrontationists are using the wrong approach. However misguided, police officers are just trying to do a very trying job, and the reality is that there are security problems surrounding the nation's railroads. What, for example, would happen were someone to blow Altamont Tunnel? Shutting down a bottleneck like this well could disrupt much of the country, and U.P. would be derelict not to be concerned about that.

So, try to be a little understanding when railroad police choose to be a little nosy -- if you really are a U.P. fan, you have to be a little on the company's side.

Beyond that, what you are told is correct: From a public location (such as a public park), you have an absolute constitutional right to photograph just about anything you want, including trains and railroad equipment. If you are being hassled for doing this, the first thing to do is go to the chief of police and politely make it clear that you are prepared to exercise your rights and defend them if necessary. If you don't gain satisfaction and understanding there, the next two stops are the United States Attorney's Office and the ACLU -- police officers can be prosecuted criminally under 18 U.S.C. sec. 242 and civilly under 42 U.S.C. secs. 1983 & 1985 for willfully violating ones constitutional rights, so in the long run, you will win this one if you go about it in the right way.

Know the precedents which back you up: The ACLU has a number of books it has published re the rights of reporters and your right to government and other information; all of them are well supported with binding case precedents, including perhaps one which fits you to a "T." While quoting these to an offending officer probably would be a waste of time, at minimum you can save your own attorneys a lot of work by knowing up front where they should start looking (they'll respect you more for knowing that as well, and perhaps charge you less). Lawyers love cases where all they have to do is make a phone call, and that solves the problem.

Finally, when a police officer does interfere with your activities, do what you can to identify who he is -- get his badge number and his name if possible, or the number of his squad car. Say, "Do you have a credential? I would like to see it." After all, anyone and his mother can get a police badge -- are you even certain the offender was a policeman? You cannot make a complaint against somebody overstepping his authority unless you know who the person is or can identify him later. A Sec. 242 violation is an individual violation -- you would be suing the officer, not the department (unless as a matter of policy it were the department which was violating the law).

Know that, in this country, courts are not invested with the powers of gods and can decide only cases or controversies -- there has to be a real proceeding before them before they can rule on anything. You may see the day when you have to tell the officer that he is wrong and that you will continue your activities unless you are arrested, in which case there will be lots of litigation, most of it costing him. That, however, is the LAST thing you should do, not the first. Those who are advising you otherwise are being irresponsible.

[alstom]

I say that the whole thing is messed up. So what if you're just taking pictures of trains. It's what railfans do. They're ridiculous[:(!]! I don't understand it. A similar situation happened to me twice, so I just forget those areas. So I have to say it's screwed up.

[chad thomas]

Welcome to the board guys.[8D]

[jefelectric]

http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf

After playing around a little I found the link to the site.

[Anonymous]

Actually the BeaNSnifF chopper was black with gold markings.
Roger