Railfanning, Homeland Security, and what we can and cannot do...

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan.

Weather you like it or not. You can be sent to jail just for Railfanning. And you can thank Bu***oo for that. Railfanning days are over. Allan.

Don't be ridiculous. I'm fixing to go railfanning this afternoon. If you don't hear from me, I'll be in the graybar hotel all weekend.

m

[Anonymous]

The Police is right to stop picture taking of trains!!!!!!!!!!.
They should however also stop picture taking of:
Cars
Trucks
Ships
Airplanes
Towns
Farmland
Roads (including dust roads - of course-)
Waterways
Your wife
Your kids
Your cat
Your dog
Your bird
Your lanmower
Your house
Your etc. etc. (set in here what ever you want)

It should als be forbidden to come even close to railroad tracks
and all the above mentioned "subjects"

Got it where this craze can lead????????????.

Hope that all can come down to normal life.

[Anonymous]

People can and do assert their rights every day, and if absolutely necessary file civil sanctions against ignorant and/or wayward cops. And THAT keeps our civil rights intact.

Allan, you speak for yourself when you declare a widespread and "feisty" hobby to be dead or obsolete. I railfan all the time and no civil authority has ever looked crooked at me.

Allen Smalling

[Anonymous]

Weather you like it or not. You can be sent to jail just for Railfanning. And you can thank Bu***oo for that. Railfanning days are over. Allan.

[Anonymous]

Very interesting. It's good to know how fundamental our rights are. It's sad to think that people are willing to abandon them rather than get hauteur from a cop.

[fidder56]

Hear much about what you can and can not do as a photographer. To read about your rights as a photographer down load a one page flyer at www.krages.com/phoright.htm This was written by a lawyer so I guess he knows what he is talking about. This is worth reading.

[trainboyH16-44]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ChrisBARailfan

It is more than just the local police though. Just last night I was railfanning (without a camera) in a Kansas City park that overlooks the entrance to Union Station and the BNSF Transcon when a BNSF Police Officer informed me that I was now restricted from observing train movements by order of the DHS. I complied and left, but as I was leaving I was advised that I would be detained for questioning and possibly arrested if I was stopped again.

That's insane! If you're restricted from observing train movements, then grade crossings will have to be closely monitered for motorists that glance out the car window, webcams like the TRAINS.com one will have to be shut down, along with the railfan parks at Rochelle, Ill., and Flatonia, Texas, and also, all windows that face a rail line will have to be blocked off, and while you're at it, why not just bury all the railways underground?

I have never had any bad experiences with police, or railroaders of any sort. Maybe it's just that I live in a place where there have never really been any terrorist attacks (Calgary, alberta)(knock on wood) but I have always had a great time railfanning, on both public and private property (the latter when I convinced a train crew to let me into the cab of a local that was switching grain cars at the yard down the hill from my house, and took a picture of a pota***rain that was going by)
I have had one police-train experience, though. The train club I attend is in a baddish neighbourhood, and we have seen police raid several houses close by. One night, the police decided to check us out (A handful of men regularely meeting in a building with boarded up windows can look suspicious) A few officers came in, and quickly discovered what we were doing was prefectly legal. That's it for trouble with the law.
Matthew

[Anonymous]

Every week I read the Trains Newswire and can't help but wonder about all the incidents that we read about that could have been an act of terror.If we don't get the whole story on these incidents,we don't really know what could be going on with our railroads. It could be that the police know something we don't and are acting on their knowledge.I think we should be careful and persue our interests and at the same time be aware that something evil could be taking place to destroy the freedoms we enjoy now.

[Anonymous]

So many are afraid to stand up for their basic rights. Where would we be today if the founders had not "stood up"? Life is what you make it, if you let them get away with this, then the next thing will be blindfolds for airline/Amtrak passengers!(we can't have them looking out the windows can we? they might report something to trains.com!)

[edblysard]

Murphy,
Its just plain Ed...Blysard is the last name.
Would love to see him run, because I think he would do a fantastic job if elected.
It would also be interesting to see how Americans would react, and see if they would vote for him because of his ability, or against him based on the color of his skin.

Ed

[Murphy Siding]

EdBlysard: I've lost track of this thread, probably because I live in S.D. which is far , far away from any thoughts of terrorists. I'm glad to find out that Colin Powell is eligable to run for president. We've had a long run of professional politicians as our presidents, and a change of scenerey would be refreshing. I used to enjoy Pat Paulson's presidential "campaigns", and his classic slogan-"We've upped our standards,now up yours."

[Anonymous]

Has anybody actually read the law? What does it saY?

Sherman

[mandelswamp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dep112362
... I heard and read, where you cant take pic's in the NY subway, not planning on going to NY anytime soon, but just wondering why I keep hearing different things, Doug

Doug, the MTA considered banning photography in the subways but it reseived too much flak to institute such a ban. As I mentioned before, Section 1050.9 Restricted Areas and Activities, item C explicitly permits photography. Check out this section of the MTA's Rule of Conduct at http://www.mta.info/nyct/rules/rules.htm.

[mandelswamp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dep112362

*mandelswamp* I read your post, not sure what to think, sound like you know what your talking about, but like I said, I heard and read, where you cant take pic's in the NY subway, not planning on going to NY anytime soon, but just wondering why I keep hearing different things, Doug
P.S. I wish i could think of the right thing to say about the london bombing's, and all the rest of what's going on in our world, at least when I'm out taking RR pic's it's a great escape from the troubles of the world

As I mentioned in my original posting, the MTA was considering banning photos in the subways but the rules they adopted still explicitly permits it [see Section 1050.9 Resticted Areas and Activities, item c of the Rules of Conduct at http://www.mta.info/nyct/rules/rules.htm].

Here are just three examples of postings that forced the MTA NOT to ban photos:
http://www.misc-transport.com/americas/NYC_Transit_Photography_Ban_203806.html
and http://www.al-ollendorf.com/archive/000024.html, and http://artdc.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=446. I first learned about the issue in a posting to this forum.

A Newsday June 24th article reported on the MTA imposing fines on certain subway riding behavior such as a $75 fine for riding between cars or jumping a turnstile because the MetroCard did not work. Details were at http://www.newsday.com/mynews/ny-nyfine244317150jun24,0,1493312.story but this page is no longer found.

[RudyRockvilleMD]

Jennifer:
The website for Bert Krages is: www.krages.com/phoright.htm. That works for me. Once you get to his web site click on the link to download his tract on photographers' rights; I believe it is a pdf file. His tract applies to all photography not just railroad photography or train watching. I hope this helps.

I agree with you the police need to be educated about the rights of photographers (especially railfans photographing trains from public property), and the best way to do it is thru the mayor of the town, the local chief of police, the ACLU if necessary, or the news media.

If you are photogrphing a train from public properety, and a police officer tells you photographing trains is not legal, and to leave even if you are on public property, Leave! Don't argue! If you do,the police officer might try to charge you with some other crime.

P.S. I make sure I am on public property whenever I photograph trains, andso far I have yet to be told it is illegal to phtograph trains, or to leave.

[owlsroost]

QUOTE:

A primary tactic of all terrorists (who have no real influence by themselves) is to get everyone excited and induce law enforcement and others to beat up the innocent in the course of suppressing what really is, overall, an inconsequential threat. Terrorists call this "the war of the flea."

The scenario goes like this: An elephant comes to the village, and the villagers all go out to see it. At first, they like the elephant because it is such an unusual and amazing creature, and everyone wants to be friends with the elephant; but, the flea has other plans -- he hops on the elephant and locates himself on the elephant's testicles, where he bites the elephant incessantly. If one thinks about it, such flea bites really cannot hurt the elephant, but they are an annoyance, and this makes the elephant mad. No matter, because whatever the elephant does, he can do nothing about the flea biting his balls, so the elephant instead stomps around in a rage, digging up the gardens, kicking in the hutches, and trampling the children. This, of course, only affronts the villagers, who have spears, and eventually they go and kill the elephant -- something the flea never could have done.

Perhaps it is amusing to make sport of strange religions and stranger ways; but, the reality is that the numbers of actual terrorists are very few, and that those who are the butt of the jokes are very numerous. We may laugh for now, but eventually we will find ourselves much like the man who abuses his wife from suspicion and who, by his abuse, turns his suspicions into reality.

Who would be the "towel head" then?

Well said, nobullchitbids - I think that's the best analogy I've ever seen of how terrorists attempt to influence public opinion, and pertinent advice on not turning friends into potential enemies.

Tony

[railroadnut675]

We should contact the media ; I demand an explanation ; it would also make a good news story I thinkthe general public should no

[railroadnut675]

this totally sucks , I think we should tell the media then Maybe we could get an explanation from an under -pressure politician-big shot

[Anonymous]

I know what he's going through. However, this cap has been going before 9-11. Sept. 11 is just a handy excuse for law enforsement agencies to abuse their power. I know, I've been on the receiving end long before the attacks. One good example occured back in the late 1990's. My brother, some friends and myself wre train watching in the St. Louis area. A security guard appeared and asked what we were doing there. We told him the truth. He said we can sit there as long as we stay off the tracks. Then a jerk with Metrolink aqppeared. The guard told him what he had told us. The jerk wasn't satisfied. He told us we had go to Illinois to train watch, we weren't allowed to train watch in the state of Missouri. I wanted to tell him to go some place and do something with his anatomy but I knew better. Where did this idiot get the right to make such a statement? I don't know. Unfortunately, I see things getting much worse before they get better.

[nobullchitbids]

QUOTE: Originally posted by chad thomas

I thought the politicaly correct term was turbo top. But I like sheet heads better. [(-D][8D]

A word of advice from someone who actually once chased terrorists for a living and has read his share of terrorist literature:

A primary tactic of all terrorists (who have no real influence by themselves) is to get everyone excited and induce law enforcement and others to beat up the innocent in the course of suppressing what really is, overall, an inconsequential threat. Terrorists call this "the war of the flea."

The scenario goes like this: An elephant comes to the village, and the villagers all go out to see it. At first, they like the elephant because it is such an unusual and amazing creature, and everyone wants to be friends with the elephant; but, the flea has other plans -- he hops on the elephant and locates himself on the elephant's testicles, where he bites the elephant incessantly. If one thinks about it, such flea bites really cannot hurt the elephant, but they are an annoyance, and this makes the elephant mad. No matter, because whatever the elephant does, he can do nothing about the flea biting his balls, so the elephant instead stomps around in a rage, digging up the gardens, kicking in the hutches, and trampling the children. This, of course, only affronts the villagers, who have spears, and eventually they go and kill the elephant -- something the flea never could have done.

Perhaps it is amusing to make sport of strange religions and stranger ways; but, the reality is that the numbers of actual terrorists are very few, and that those who are the butt of the jokes are very numerous. We may laugh for now, but eventually we will find ourselves much like the man who abuses his wife from suspicion and who, by his abuse, turns his suspicions into reality.

Who would be the "towel head" then?

[route_rock]

As long as you are on public property I am not going to care. If you are standing right next to the tracks ( or better yet on main 2 in Downers Grove) then Hell yeah your getting arrested if you dont get killed first.

Are terrorists looking for major calamity? Yes they are. Would a major freight yard do the trick? Sure if it has the right cars in it.

If its illegal to take pictures of trains from RR property does this mean I am going to get fired? Hell a lot of us are taking pics of you guys just for giggles. One of my fellow conductors takes pics of cars with artisitc grafitti on em.

Act smart dont be stupid when dealing with the cops. BNSF RR Police have an attitude as do any RR cop. their job is to get tresspassers out and keep claims down.If Matt Rose's car goes by an area with a bunch of railfans standing near the tracks then the RR cops are going to look like they dont do anything. And yes Matt has been on the Chicago div recently.

[Anonymous]

I am unable to get the link to Bert KragesII's website, linked on the first page of this thread, to work. Any help with a corrected or updated webpage address would be appreciated. We need to stand up and demand our Rights and make sure that when we act within the law, that we are not billied into believing that we are breaking the law. We need to make sure that both DAs and Local Police have up-to-date and correct information about what is legal to protograph. If it takes involving the medai, so be iit, but that will usually pi^^ off the cops even more, so providing them with accurate information and demanding that they too folow and enfore the accurate laws and NOT abridge your constitutional rights is very important. If you get stopped and asked to leave, don;t argue, but DO ask for contact information for the cops superiors and make sure you get accurate info to them on the corrent photography laws and about how you were NOT in violation of any laws, and perhaps even offer to get some railfans together to do a seminar for the Plice to educate them about what railfans are all about, and how 'we' would appreciate their understanding of us, and our compliance of the actual and real laws. If we don't stand up to this and assert our rights as Citizens of a Free Nation, then the terrorist sandrats win. The challenge is to make the cops our allies in defense of our legal and Constitutional rights. Education is the best way I know of.
Jennifer

[Anonymous]

If a railroad cop tells you that you can't take pictures of trains from where you are standing, ask him where the property line is, especially if you are parked on a city street. Rental security officers are dumb as rocks. I was parked on a city street and this guy says that I can't take pictures, so I asked him if the railroad plows the street during wintertime? He didn't know what to say.

[Anonymous]

Apropos the Japanese not-so-secret ship, does anyone remember about 20 years ago when Revell had to "retire" its model of the new stealth bomber prematurely because it was too darn much like the original?

What can I say, both the DoD and Revell obviously had design geniuses.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Colojack

There is more hysteria than security in Homeland Security. It's amazing how far people, including professionals like law enforcement, will go despite their gross ignorance. We live is scarey times--and not all from terrorists.

OUCH! LOL.
Allan.

[JimValle]

In the 1930's the Japanese built two gigantic battleships behind huge curtains made of sisal rope but they still ended up in the 1941 edition of Jane's Fighting Ships. I propose we hang similar curtains on both sides of every railroad right-of-way in the whole nation. That way nobody could see the trains and terrorists would have to rely on the millions and millions of pictures already in existence to gather the intelligence they need. Then the cops wouldn't have to impose what Mark Twain called " insect authority" on harmless railfans.

[Anonymous]

Hi, I am a police officer from London who last October ran up against the morons (from clearly a very small gene pool) employed by the railroad in Lancaster, PA, surely not a hotbed of Islamic fundamentalism while pursuing my hobby of US railroads. Stop the paranoia, freight yards are not targets, large groups of travelling members of the public are where maximum casualties and the resultant publicity "further the cause".

[Chris_S68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dabruno644

Let's get to the nitty-gritty of this incident. I know this area and there is no park near this location. The UP/Metra R.O.W. from the toll road (I-294) to Addison St. is landscaped and very park like but it is the UP/Metra R.O.W. If you were "inside the trees" you were on the railroad property. Stick to the grade crossing at Poplar Ave.

The nitty gritty would be that you apparently don't know the area as well as you think, and you apparently didn't read the author's post very well.
There is a small park called Golden Meadows tucked between the tollway and the residential area just North of the UP. The leads that head up to yard 9 skirt the Southeast edge of the park. Now, whether or not he went beyond any sort of boundry at some point...

[owlsroost]

QUOTE: at least when I'm out taking RR pic's it's a great escape from the troubles of the world

Exactly [:)]

Tony