Railfanning, Homeland Security, and what we can and cannot do...

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

QUOTE: Originally posted by ericsp

Just be glad you are not a beetle.
http://www.cdfa.ca.gov/

He does look a bit shifty......bet those antennae are really receivers............

For listening to the railroads' radio channels no doubt. I would not want to be him when he gets arrested down by the tracks. He might "accidentally" get stepped on.

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ericsp

Just be glad you are not a beetle.
http://www.cdfa.ca.gov/

He does look a bit shifty......bet those antennae are really receivers............

[ericsp]

Just be glad you are not a beetle.
http://www.cdfa.ca.gov/

[miniwyo]

I hope when I become a cop (Approx. 1.5 years) I will try to raise awareness to our hobby, and to hopefully change things.

[Junctionfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TimChgo9

Okay folks..... quit the cop bashing, okay? They enforce the laws, and they have a dirty, nasty job dealing with the dregs of humanity on a daily basis. It's a job that 95% of you here wouldn't do, It's a job I wouldn't do. And, this is NOT an insult to any of you, it is just the fact, would any of you want to do that job? BUT, that said, lay off the cops. they are only doing their job. My incident was the first time in 10 years I have ever been harrased, or sent away. I know with all of the terrorism crap out there, everyone is nervous, and everyone is a little more vigilant... what has to be done is a stop to all of the conjecture, and find out if indeed our railfanning actvities are illegal. The "guessing game" needs to stop.

As far as I am concerned, I will still be out there shooting pictures. I am not too worried at this point. I am just going to be more careful, and stay on public property, and only frequent the places that I know I won't be bothered.

I wouldn't mind being a cop at all. With the training I recieved, I would know the difference between a dreg of society or a suspicious possible terrorist (with bulletins from Dept. Homeland Security) and a tourist; especially if I wasn't a rookie and had the first-hand experience to "know the streets".

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan.

Abuse of power.....power hungry! Shall I go on?

Please do.....I'm sure you've got years of experience to draw from..................power hungry???

been to Mexico lately?
How about Italy or France, any of the African countries..........puhleese......grow up.

[TimChgo9]

Okay folks..... quit the cop bashing, okay? They enforce the laws, and they have a dirty, nasty job dealing with the dregs of humanity on a daily basis. It's a job that 95% of you here wouldn't do, It's a job I wouldn't do. And, this is NOT an insult to any of you, it is just the fact, would any of you want to do that job? BUT, that said, lay off the cops. they are only doing their job. My incident was the first time in 10 years I have ever been harrased, or sent away. I know with all of the terrorism crap out there, everyone is nervous, and everyone is a little more vigilant... what has to be done is a stop to all of the conjecture, and find out if indeed our railfanning actvities are illegal. The "guessing game" needs to stop.

As far as I am concerned, I will still be out there shooting pictures. I am not too worried at this point. I am just going to be more careful, and stay on public property, and only frequent the places that I know I won't be bothered.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by smalling_60626

A friend of mine was out in Oak Park (IL) shooting where the Chicago L and the UP West Line run parallel. A Metra bull ordered him off the property. My friend protested that "he was on public property" and the cop said "You're on METRA property."

How are we supposed to treat these quasi-governmental, quasi-private, quasi-public agencies. Sounds to me like the cop got out of hand but what is the average person minding his own business to do if he doesn't want to wind up with an ACLU lawyer or launch a false arrest/malicious prosecution suit?

Abuse of power.....power hungry! Shall I go on?

[Anonymous]

A friend of mine was out in Oak Park (IL) shooting where the Chicago L and the UP West Line run parallel. A Metra bull ordered him off the property. My friend protested that "he was on public property" and the cop said "You're on METRA property."

How are we supposed to treat these quasi-governmental, quasi-private, quasi-public agencies. Sounds to me like the cop got out of hand but what is the average person minding his own business to do if he doesn't want to wind up with an ACLU lawyer or launch a false arrest/malicious prosecution suit?

[railfan619]

Sometimes I wonder about what is safe and what is not but like some of the. Other people that have written on this one you should get a bunch of friends and even the media to come over with you and then have some one call the police and see how fast they come a runnin I betcha not even one squad will even show up. Or if they do show offer them some dougnuts form Dunken Doughnuts [(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D]

[88gta350]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ChrisBARailfan

and once a freedom is taken it is rarely returned.

That much at least is true.

[ChrisBARailfan]

I was indeed talking about Washington Park, I was at the east end parked near the exit from under Union Station, I was out of my vehicle and was standing by the wall. The first contact I had was with a KCPD officer, he and I conversed for several minutes. As he walked on foot through the park he told me to have fun and be safe. Minutes later a BNSF Police explorer parked behind my vehicle and that is when I was asked to leave. I have watched movements from Washington Park and the Union Station parking lot for months with no problems.

I will be honest that I rarely watch planes at Wheeler Downtown airport, but you notice that the spot on the west side where you could park is gone. It was closed prior to construction and according to aviation workers will not be coming back. I however work during the day and do most watching in late evening or night. For years I sat on the I-29 outer road on the south side of the airport along the flight path in the gravel that runs along the outer road. Now signs have been posted along both outer roads advised no stopping is permitted. I have been asked to leave that spot by both MHP and Airport police due to security concerns.

As for the Air Show construction cancelled this years show and next years I believe, but after that "security and scheduling concerns" will dictate if the airshow returns. That was from the Kansas City Star from several weeks ago.

I am not being alarmist in saying that I believe that Kansas City and other local authorities have used "security concerns" to accomplish goals that before they could not have and once a freedom is taken it is rarely returned.

[CSXrules4eva]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF4ever

I don't fault the police on the scene here--they have a job to do and often any misguided application of their policy is the result of orders from higher up. Not sure I agree with the earlier assessment about someone with a camera and scanner looking like an intelligence operative. Maybe a BAD intelligence operative. The pros--and you have to put Al Qaida in that class--do their surveillance far more discretely. I'm sure the sight of someone taking photos or listening to a scanner can get a 911 caller worked up but the reality is that the really good people doing reconnaissance will never be noticed or will be ignored if they are.

Eveytime I go to my local train watching locations which are allong the NEC, and allong the NS Harrisburg Division in PA, I always have my scanner on, maybe in my back pocket or something., and I have little paper pads and a pen, and lastly I have the camera. I don't get harrased too much in there locations. The main question I get from people is "Do you work for the railroad?" Pretty interesting huh?? I had one engineer come up to me and ask me was I a trainmaster. I personally didn't think I looked like one. lol So far I haven't ran into too much disturbance from police, except in the South Philly area around Greenwhich Yard in South Philly. So I tend not to go there anymore since, the police are going to be jerks about it.

[Anonymous]

To chrisBARailfan, with all due respect, what are you smoking? Were you at Washington Park watching trains? This is the only park near the station. I find it hard to believe you rousted for watching trains here without provocation and as the for the BNSF officer I find it hard to believe one was patroling in this area as I have never seen one here and there are plenty of city police and Union Station security to cover this area.

In regard to Downtown Airport, I often park at the south end near Executive Beechcraft, on Lou Holland Drive, at the public parking area to have lunch and never has anyone ever said anything to me.

The Air Show was cancelled primarily due to the extending of the runways and the construction associated with this project.

Adding to the paranoia of the day by making blanket statments is culpable. Are there individual instances of abuse of course and we can't access many of the places we once did, with that said, to create the impression that the Kansas City area is in lock down is acompletely unfair portrayal of the area.

While railfanning, I have been asked by police what I am doing and after explaining my activity I have been allowed to continue. I welcome their inquiries, as most likely they will see me often and I like to assure them I am not a problem for them.

Being questioned within reason is not out of line, it's their job, should you have a problem with this, perhaps you should stay at home and not ruin things for the rest of us.

Ford Simcox

[chad thomas]

True, If it aint broke don't fix it.

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kevikens

It will do little good to confine your concerns to writing something on this forum. You must get up, get out and do something constructive as several of us here in NJ have done. <Snip>

True enough. Talking about it here, though, may spur some folks to take that action, and certainly helps make all of us aware that we're not doing anything illegal, despite claims by people in authority to the contrary.

In NJ you had a problem and got it fixed. Sometimes trying to fix a problem before it occurs actually causes more problems. That's why I haven't done anything yet here...

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF4ever

I don't fault the police on the scene here--they have a job to do and often any misguided application of their policy is the result of orders from higher up. Not sure I agree with the earlier assessment about someone with a camera and scanner looking like an intelligence operative. Maybe a BAD intelligence operative. The pros--and you have to put Al Qaida in that class--do their surveillance far more discretely. I'm sure the sight of someone taking photos or listening to a scanner can get a 911 caller worked up but the reality is that the really good people doing reconnaissance will never be noticed or will be ignored if they are.

The point is that to the lady driving the minivan home from Target it looks suspicious. And I am pretty familiar with surveillance concepts and you would be very surprised how open many of them are.

Dan

[kevikens]

It will do little good to confine your concerns to writing something on this forum. You must get up, get out and do something constructive as several of us here in NJ have done. When NJT tried to stop railfanning by forbidding photography of its equipmenmt from anywhere including the sidewalks of public property we contacted our local ACLU by written letter. You must do it this way. They will not accept e-mails and phone calls. Get the address of your local ACLU from the internet and write them with the specifics. They did a good job here in NJ, went right ot the state's Attorney General and NJT. We received written copies of correspondence between the Attorney General and NJT informing NJT of the legality of rail photography from public property. I travel with that letter with me and have shown it to NJT and local police. They are surprised to see this but do back off. Many police do not know the law. If you want to keep on railfanning you had better do something tangible to educate law enforcement. Across the river in Phila. last year the police took into custody two photogs taking pictures of oil refineries from a bridge claiming it was illegal. It cost the city several thousand dollars to settle the ensuing uproar. As distasteful as it might seem if we do not protect our interests we will lose them. Don't be content to write something on here, write your local ACLU.

[Anonymous]

Earlier this year, a friend of mine was videotaping a Norfolk Southern train at about 9 PM. His video camera has a flashing blue light on it, so, we believe that must have alerted someone, either the conductor or a neighbor. Anyway, they called the city police. A police officer arrived and asked my friend what he was doing and asked to see the video camera. After inspecting the device, the officer said that it was certainly all right if my friend video tapes trains as long as he is careful and does not trespass on the railroad. I recently talked to another police officer who said that it is not illegal to watch trains and even take pictures of them. He said that it is illegal and dangerous to interfere with railroad property though. Now remember, this is in Southern Illinois. Some other parts of the country may have different laws about video taping trains. I know for a fact that you can video tape and take pictures of trains at CSX's Howell Yards in Evansville Indiana and you can take pictures of trains at Princeton Indiana. Also, Effingham Illinois allows people to video tape and take pictures of trains at their depot.

[BNSF4ever]

I don't fault the police on the scene here--they have a job to do and often any misguided application of their policy is the result of orders from higher up. Not sure I agree with the earlier assessment about someone with a camera and scanner looking like an intelligence operative. Maybe a BAD intelligence operative. The pros--and you have to put Al Qaida in that class--do their surveillance far more discretely. I'm sure the sight of someone taking photos or listening to a scanner can get a 911 caller worked up but the reality is that the really good people doing reconnaissance will never be noticed or will be ignored if they are.

[tree68]

I have sevaral copies of the editorial, and appropriate cover letters, ready to send to our local police chief, sheriff, and even the state police zone commander. I haven't sent them yet because we are currently dealing with another photo issue - people who take digital pictures at accidents and similar events, often with camera phones, and send them to the media, particularly a local news website. There have been times when the pictures hit the web almost before emergency responders arrived on the scene. There are issues of privacy and crime investigation involved, and it only promises to get messier.

I also still have them on the table at home because I don't know that we've had a problem here yet - and I don't want to trigger one.

As with most issues, and as has already been said very well, education is the answer. Law enforcement is being deluged with information about threats, real and imagined, not to mention the stuff they have to deal with everyday besides. We have the potential to be just one more thorn in their sides unless they know who we are and why we are what we are. A cop just coming off a messy domestic violence call isn't in the mood to listen to somebody spout off their rights - all they know is they got a call for a suspicious person and there is something on the clipboard back at headquarters about threats to rail facilities. You do the math.

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mehrlich

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

Okay gents......time to throttle back a bit. First of all Tim, you did the right thing. Diffuse the situation and seek answers in a non-combative method.

There is alot of confusion regarding what can and can't be done, and that extends to the law enforcement communites. And when in doubt, they are probably going to default to telling you not to do it. Ed gave some good advice, and I'd present what I found out to the watch supervisor and take it from there. No cop wants to be the guy that let the next London, 9/11 or OKC happen again.

So if you see someone taking pictures of a railyard, the natural presumption would be that they were a railfan....right? But what if they were middle eastern or Chinese and taking pictures of a railyard or station? What if they were taking pictures of an airport or an aircraft carrier...from public property? Would you be suspicious then? How about your house? (Anybody have a home appraised lately or a nosy home owners association?) Folks are quick to say stupid cops, barney fife, etc...but these folks are trying to do a job, often with less than perfect guidance and to them a railfan (hmm guy with camera, maybe a map, notebook, scanner) taking pictures of a potential target looks exactly like what he is .......an intelligence operative. Because at the basic level that is what a railfan is...an intelligence collector ...observing, noting, and recording data....albeit for personal vice government use. So maybe, just maybe, you could cut these guys some slack and do as Tim did. You want to beat the terrorists, yeah don't give in, but do it by helping the good guys do their job better, not by being a childish***and adding fuel to the fire or there really will be problems....

Tim you're off to a good start. There's some good (and bad) advice offered above.

Dan

Thank you Dan, for a little common sense and sanity.

mike

Thanks Mike......

Just a couple of other thoughts.....

First, I am huge believer in the constitution and civil rights, and although not perfect it's the best around. It only stays the best by jelously guarding the ideals that framed it. I'm not espousing anybody roll over and take it, if it's wrong. But there are ways to achieve and end, and arguing with one cop is not going to change things and only result in an unpeasant opportunity to expand one's cultural horizons while sitting in lockup. Unless you truly want to press the system, go to jail, go to court, then find an attorney to take it up the court system for you (I don't have the time myself or desire to have a jailhouse affair), then the educational approach working with the law enforcement folks is best. If that fails, we all have elected representatives at differing levels of local, state and federal government. There is a pendulum swing that occurs in political world of event, over-reaction, corrective action, back to middle. Sometimes it takes a little shove to get back to middle............take it for what it's worth.


BTW...for those of you that haven't travelled outside the US, we have it real, REAL good here....

Dan

[chad thomas]

I wasn't very clear in my previous post. I don't mean get hostile with the cops. Just don't let them get away with it. Talk to there boss. And if that don't work talk to there bosses boss. So on and so on.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

Okay gents......time to throttle back a bit. First of all Tim, you did the right thing. Diffuse the situation and seek answers in a non-combative method.

There is alot of confusion regarding what can and can't be done, and that extends to the law enforcement communites. And when in doubt, they are probably going to default to telling you not to do it. Ed gave some good advice, and I'd present what I found out to the watch supervisor and take it from there. No cop wants to be the guy that let the next London, 9/11 or OKC happen again.

So if you see someone taking pictures of a railyard, the natural presumption would be that they were a railfan....right? But what if they were middle eastern or Chinese and taking pictures of a railyard or station? What if they were taking pictures of an airport or an aircraft carrier...from public property? Would you be suspicious then? How about your house? (Anybody have a home appraised lately or a nosy home owners association?) Folks are quick to say stupid cops, barney fife, etc...but these folks are trying to do a job, often with less than perfect guidance and to them a railfan (hmm guy with camera, maybe a map, notebook, scanner) taking pictures of a potential target looks exactly like what he is .......an intelligence operative. Because at the basic level that is what a railfan is...an intelligence collector ...observing, noting, and recording data....albeit for personal vice government use. So maybe, just maybe, you could cut these guys some slack and do as Tim did. You want to beat the terrorists, yeah don't give in, but do it by helping the good guys do their job better, not by being a childish***and adding fuel to the fire or there really will be problems....

Tim you're off to a good start. There's some good (and bad) advice offered above.

Dan

Thank you Dan, for a little common sense and sanity.

mike

[88gta350]

Next time you're stopped for railfanning, simply ask the officer to show you where in the crimes code it states that photographing trains from public property is illegal. They all should be carrying copies of the crimes code and vehicle code with them, so just ask to see the law. That should do a lot to end the situation right there. Cops get daily bullitens and such about BOLOs (Be On the Lookout) and confuse them with actual enacted laws. You can drive up to the front gate of my nuclear power plant and start snapping pictures all you want. As long as you don't cross the property line, there's not a darn thing I can do about it. We can call the state police to come scare you off, or question you, but the taking of the pictures by itself is not illegal.

[dharmon]

Okay gents......time to throttle back a bit. First of all Tim, you did the right thing. Diffuse the situation and seek answers in a non-combative method.

There is alot of confusion regarding what can and can't be done, and that extends to the law enforcement communites. And when in doubt, they are probably going to default to telling you not to do it. Ed gave some good advice, and I'd present what I found out to the watch supervisor and take it from there. No cop wants to be the guy that let the next London, 9/11 or OKC happen again.

So if you see someone taking pictures of a railyard, the natural presumption would be that they were a railfan....right? But what if they were middle eastern or Chinese and taking pictures of a railyard or station? What if they were taking pictures of an airport or an aircraft carrier...from public property? Would you be suspicious then? How about your house? (Anybody have a home appraised lately or a nosy home owners association?) Folks are quick to say stupid cops, barney fife, etc...but these folks are trying to do a job, often with less than perfect guidance and to them a railfan (hmm guy with camera, maybe a map, notebook, scanner) taking pictures of a potential target looks exactly like what he is .......an intelligence operative. Because at the basic level that is what a railfan is...an intelligence collector ...observing, noting, and recording data....albeit for personal vice government use. So maybe, just maybe, you could cut these guys some slack and do as Tim did. You want to beat the terrorists, yeah don't give in, but do it by helping the good guys do their job better, not by being a childish***and adding fuel to the fire or there really will be problems....

Tim you're off to a good start. There's some good (and bad) advice offered above.

Dan

[chad thomas]

[censored] THAT !!!!!!!! Don't back down. I would have left the scene and immediatly started climbing the chain of command untill I got to someone that would straighten these boys out. And involving the media might not be a bad idea either. Those guys eat that stuff up. Now I understand in TimChgo9 could have a lot more at risk because of his job, so for him it's a little different. As for the rest of us STAND YOUR GROUND!!!!!
IF YOU DON'T THEY WIN !!!!!!!

[Anonymous]

Sounds like the cops are a bunch of Barney Fife morons that get a good deal excitment over the amount of power they must enforce. Must be the local Doughnut huts daily offerings were stale and they decided its better to mess with a guy taking pictures of trains rather than searching out any real crime that may require them to fill out paper work.

[Junctionfan]

This is getting way out there. What the heck is going on with the law enforcement everywhere because it isn't just the U.S that has bouts of law forgetfulness.

I think CNN, ABC, CBC,CBS and many others need to do a story about railfans and dispel some of the lies and negative attitude that has been conjured up by a bunch of hysterics and paranoia.......rediculous.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by EMT49

this hole thing has gotten out of hand this is just the govermets way to try to control us [:(!] we pay taxes and should be allowed to get pics of trains as long as your not tresspassing.i would have stood up for my right to do so . i would go to the same spot over and over just to let them know there not scareing me. and i would try to get other people to do the same and maybe the media if they are intrested. we the people of the us are letting the goverment take our freedum because of some terrorists. we need to let them know we wont stand for by litters to you local news paper and goverment officals


sorry about spelling i know it sucks [:(]

I know where you are coming from.....I my self am about to give up Railfanning forever!. The Terrorists have won in this chicken *** nation. And so for the fat cops in this nation too. And I stand behind my words too. Cops have better thing to do that go chasing away some God D*mn Railfan,Why don't they go crack down on the METH in this country. Allan.