Has a GG1 ever been restored to running order?

[paulsafety]

QUOTE: Originally posted by trainjunky29

Dear paulsafety,
If you replace your GG-1 traction motors with motors from an EMDGEMPIWHOMEVER model SDGPEFAEM 40-70-90-4400ACDC-2-7-9 whatever, with new US&S/somebody superelectrocabsignaling and HEP cross-bilateral-multisimplo-transreinducing-composite-solid-state whatevers, and all you save is the body what you are hearing is not the GG-1. What you are experiencing is not the GG-1 except to a small extent. Is what you are really experiencing much better than a tape player on an unmodified GG-1?

I would be a fool to deny that certainly, for the good of the historic restoration, some things would need to be modified or replaced. However, much of what I have heard here in the way of restoration needs are really not needed to return a GG-1 to operation in a historic context, but rather to turn it in to "dream choo-choo [:)]."

Sincerely,
Daniel Parks

Thanks for the clarification - I missed your point the first time around - restore and operate, but let's not create a "frankenstein - abomination" in the process. Right?

I can agree with that.

[daveklepper]

The modifications I would propose would not change the GG-1's character. The quill motors would stay. If at all possible it would remain an ac-commutator 25Hz locomotive and not use rectifiers. Switch gear would be modern, wiring would use the best insulation, and there would be on-board head-end power. If this could be fitted in while retaining a restored boiler, OK. It would be a reliable locomotive, except for the traction motors and pantograph (historic equipement) serviceable at any diesel locomotive maintenancne and repair center, but the essential sounds and operating charactreristics and engineer's control would be exactly the same as the original. And the transformers would be non-toxic and give the tap-off necessary to power the electronic conversion gear for head-end power.

[Anonymous]

Dear paulsafety,
If you replace your GG-1 traction motors with motors from an EMDGEMPIWHOMEVER model SDGPEFAEM 40-70-90-4400ACDC-2-7-9 whatever, with new US&S/somebody superelectrocabsignaling and HEP cross-bilateral-multisimplo-transreinducing-composite-solid-state whatevers, and all you save is the body what you are hearing is not the GG-1. What you are experiencing is not the GG-1 except to a small extent. Is what you are really experiencing much better than a tape player on an unmodified GG-1?

I would be a fool to deny that certainly, for the good of the historic restoration, some things would need to be modified or replaced. However, much of what I have heard here in the way of restoration needs are really not needed to return a GG-1 to operation in a historic context, but rather to turn it in to "dream choo-choo [:)]."

Sincerely,
Daniel Parks

[paulsafety]

QUOTE: Originally posted by trainjunky29

Fifty years ago, scrappers were cutting up all of the NYC Hudsons, all the NYC Niagras, every D&RGW standard gauge steam locomotive, all the T1's, the S1, the Q1, the Q2, all the Milwaukee Road's [amazingly built] Atlantics and Hudsons, and something closer to your heart. Why? Because they thought that the locomotives were of no historic value. Please, oh please, I implore you! Let us not make the same mistake as those who cut up today's lost engines.

It is not just the GG-1 which is historic, but also what MAKES UP A GG-1; this includes the steam generator, the water tanks, the electronics, the system.... Don't change out any more than you have to. A GG-1 was built to run on 11, 000 V--let it. There's still plenty of track using that voltage on the same frequecy. Leave well enough alone! I know people who would rather have a hotrod than a factual manifestation of a bygone era, and to take a GG-1 and make it into an XX-10, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000 is a wrong to the principles of historic preservation--the reason these locomotives were saved in the first place.

Sincerely yours in defense of history,
Daniel Parks

I appreciate the restoration v. modification for operation argument; however, there are many GG1s preserved in "original" condition -- its hardly a "lost engine" like NYC Hudsons, etc. Modifcation of one or two of the dozen+ GG1s would enable a new generation to appreciate the sounds, motion and power of one in action with a real train (not a static, accurate display or a computer simulation, etc.)

[Anonymous]

Fifty years ago, scrappers were cutting up all of the NYC Hudsons, all the NYC Niagras, every D&RGW standard gauge steam locomotive, all the T1's, the S1, the Q1, the Q2, all the Milwaukee Road's [amazingly built] Atlantics and Hudsons, and something closer to your heart. Why? Because they thought that the locomotives were of no historic value. Please, oh please, I implore you! Let us not make the same mistake as those who cut up today's lost engines.

It is not just the GG-1 which is historic, but also what MAKES UP A GG-1; this includes the steam generator, the water tanks, the electronics, the system.... Don't change out any more than you have to. A GG-1 was built to run on 11, 000 V--let it. There's still plenty of track using that voltage on the same frequecy. Leave well enough alone! I know people who would rather have a hotrod than a factual manifestation of a bygone era, and to take a GG-1 and make it into an XX-10, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000 is a wrong to the principles of historic preservation--the reason these locomotives were saved in the first place.

Sincerely yours in defense of history,
Daniel Parks

[Anonymous]

I didn't understand much of the tech talk above but it sure sounded cool.....

[Anonymous]

You make it seem more complicated then it really is.

1. Get a GG1

2. Disassemble

3. Send frame/trucks to China for restoration

4. Send electricals to Europe for restoration

5. Scrap steam generator to gain space.

6. recieve frame from China

7. recieve electricals from europe

8. Install Transformer to change 25 kV to 11 kV - install instead of steam generator

9. Install frequency converter from 60 Hz to 25 Hz - with HEP from there.

10. Install other essentials, assemble the locomotive

11. GG1-2 ready to run in multifrequency/voltage version.

GG1 tap transformer can be mineral oil cooled, no need for PCB, also frequency is irrelevant for the transformers - given it is big enough (the bigger frequency, the smaller the transformer!). So the system would look like this:

25/11 kV conversion transformer -> Main transformer -> frequency converter/hep -> motors.

conversion transformer and frequency converter are optional - so the loco could run on any electricity on the NEC.

Then all you need is FRA allowance, a few heavyweight coaches and Viola - Congressional Limited ready.

[paulsafety]

QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd

The basic problem with a restored GG1 is that it can only run one place - the NEC from NY to DC (and out to H'burg - at least for a while). That's pretty slim pickings for an excursion locomotive. Not a very viable "ambassador" for Amtrak, unlike the UP, CP and NS steamers that could travel the whole system.

I have heard the idea of an "Amtrak" steam locomotive kicked around from time to time.

How about this: Amtrak "rents" UP 844 and crew to use on the Sunset or Zephyr. Might get UP's attention, then!

The general population density in the NEC (even when including H'burg line) is quite high per square mile, and if measured in "previous/current/potential amtrak passengers" living within 25 miles of either side of ROW, then it is also very high as compared to the "high plains" or the "desert southwest". This area also supports a good enthusiast/fan base for excursions whether steam/diesel/hirailing, etc. Also, with such a density of urban areas that have historically, consistently supported passenger rail, there could be strong media coverage in varied markets.

I respect, but don't understand, the opinion that this part of the country makes "slim pickins" for an excursion engine or an ambassador for Amtrak. Of course, I am highly biased, having grown up in Philly and ridden behind GG1's and other electrics.

I realize that the likelihood of seeing a GG1 restored to operation is highly unlikely, but it would represent a fantastic "living history" exercise - like learning about our past thru steam restoration and operation. Wires/catenary ought to be a key part of the experience as much as coal/oil firing of a steamer (rather than converting the firebox to burn LPG or simply towing the steamer with a diesel and sending out "fake smoke", etc.) I couldn't imagine a GG1 in Chicago, powered by a motor generator set in the baggage car, etc. Just wouldn't seem "right" somehow (ie. "fake smoke" from a steamer that isn't really under steam)
[:)]
Paul F.

[Anonymous]

Sounds like a competition that budding B.S.E.E.'s and others in the NEC could engage in--restoring a GG-1 for mainline service at the lowest cost and the safest environmentally without totally ignoring esthetic factors (like whether the loco would need a "buddy" car behind it actually generating the power.)

Where are some places to see a good "retired" GG-1? I really like the one at the RR Museum in Baltimore, but I'm sure there must be other places....

[daveklepper]

I may have been fooled by the Physics Today article. It may really be a spoof. I know this is possible because two letters on fuel cell Hydrogen in the May issue are cearly spoofs, getting much more electricity from the Hydrogen than put in. Among other spoofs, they suggest saving money and fuel by using your Hybrid to generate electricity for your home while the Hybrid is in the garage, connecting the generator output to the home electrical system and disconnecting your home from the grid. Now this is a mag read by top physisists and engineers of North Ameerica. The spoof:

1. Wrong output voltage, wrong current

2. Hybrids generate electricity in the braking mode. They are not "gas-electric" cars.

3. In most cases on a per horsepower-hour or Kilowatt-hour basis, your home electricity is cheaper than the power you buy at the gas station. This varies.

So I went back and looked at the reference article and decided the claims for superconductivity must be wildly exaggerated.

Again, the website for all this is www.aip.org

[Anonymous]

SOME OF YOU PEOPLE POSSESS THE UNIQUE ABILITY TO
DRIVE ME CRAZY!!!!
(An ovservation, not an insult.)

Firstly, the GG-1 is notable for the very fact that it has the longest service life of any mainline locomotive, ever. Let the thing run on its own juice from the overhead wires! Forget whatever AC somethingorather cow/calf/slug/thingy!

The GG-1's used HEP cars, so why not just do that? Leave the boiler and tanks in. Out here in southern California, we connect our steam engine to the steam heat pipes on passenger cars, and it's nice to have on cold days. I'm sure it would be even nicer in the cold Northeast. Some cars belonging to museums or individuals still use steam heat, and having a power car would save a lot of replacing components on the locomotive--contrary to popular belief, it's better to restore a GG-1 than it is to take a GG-1 frame and build "Dream Locomotive."

I'm not an electrical engineer, so I cannot claim to be an expert, but to my understanding, light bulbs (and I know heaters) usually powered by three-phase power will also run (perhaps outputing less energy) on normal AC, just like you can run a light bulb on 1-phase AC or DC. The only thing that the three phase power and 1-phase power aren't compatible on are motors, but I don't think that would be a problem (get yourself a battery powered mixer for the dining car and save ten grand on major design changes).

Finally, HAVE ANY OF YOU HEARD OF AMTRAK'S BUDGET PROBLEMS???? Amtrak doesn't have enough money to replace ties, much less to operate excursioning locomotives! As to the idea of the "premium service," it might work, and I'm sure that if you gave them a big enough cut of the revenue pie, they would let you run it.

Most respectfully yours,
Daniel Parks

[Modelcar]

...Am I correct from the above post mentioning pulsations in gearing sounds...and If I remember correctly, from the seat cushions, one could feel the pulses in the power as a GG-1 got under way and was putting the power to it's mission....{Pushing one back in the seat too..}.

[daveklepper]

NY - Washington is the heaviest market in USA passenger railroading. Can you imagine a weekly round trip, say Monday breakfast NY - Washington, Dinner Washington - NY, then Friday breakfast Washington - NY and dinner NY - Washington, with say six restored private cars, Mountain View (still operable in private hands, I think I am still a small part owner) bringing up the rear, the rest not end of train cars but still equipped like prvate cars, exteriors all matching the Mountain View, which is to say the exact Broadway Limited paint scheme, meals included, fairs double those of Acela first class, it might sell. Especially if the breakfasts and dinners were really super quality. You might find that this could really be the prestige train in the market. The question is would Amtrak allow this competition and provide the time slots in the critical NY-Newark 2-track zone.

Electric locomotives will always be limited in their reach, until there is a nationwide electrification program, and then it won't be 25Hz. If it were a dc third rail locomotive, it would be restricted just to Metro North and LIRR (asuming it had the right shoes).

However, I would say the if the Conecticut museum's E-33, EF-4 is ever restored, since it was rectifier locomotive anyway, it should be restored so it can run on both 60Hz and 25Hz, and that won't be a problem.

I also have some very good news for this kind of restoration project. The April 2005 issue of Physics today, www.aip.org, of the American Institute of Physics, has an article on High Temperature Cuprate Superconductors, and I can assure you that soon transformers like those in the GG-1's will be a lot smaller and lighter, that switch gear may have zero moving parts and handle huge amounts of current like a transistor handles small amounts, etc. There is a real technological breakthrough coming soon in this area, and the article specifically mentions trains as an application. It is also clearly applicable to the head-end power issue.

[oltmannd]

The basic problem with a restored GG1 is that it can only run one place - the NEC from NY to DC (and out to H'burg - at least for a while). That's pretty slim pickings for an excursion locomotive. Not a very viable "ambassador" for Amtrak, unlike the UP, CP and NS steamers that could travel the whole system.

I have heard the idea of an "Amtrak" steam locomotive kicked around from time to time.

How about this: Amtrak "rents" UP 844 and crew to use on the Sunset or Zephyr. Might get UP's attention, then!

[traintownofcowee]

This is a little odd.

I never even thought of the idea to restore an electric locomotive.

But the one in Strasburg sure is nice.

A GG1 would obviously take shorter to restore than a steamer, but still..who would do it?
Also, iv'e seen GG1s in Amtrak markings. I wonder if they would want to "borow" it or restore it.[?][#dots]

P.S. nice joke drephpe! [(-D]

C Ya All L8TER!
[8D][:D][:)][:P][{(-_-)}][(-D][swg][8D]

[daveklepper]

The grind of the gears on starting up was not continuous but pulsed somehwat at 50Hz, 50 cycles per second, twice the power frequency. The pulsing was greater in the MP-54 mu cars but was also present with the GG-1.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by coasterjoe

For those of us to young to have heard a GG-1 with our own ears, what did a GG-1 sound like? Was it a low hum or was it something else.

Starting out it the loudest sound was the grind of the gears, which turned into a low growl as the speed built. Other than that the only sound was the constant woosh of the fans. If there were any other sounds around a G powered train could sneak up on you and you wouldn't know it until it was right on top of you.

[daveklepper]

The big banks of semi-conductors are being reduced to more manageable size, but in addition to the rectification to dc and then chopping or inverting, another aproach is frequency doubling and then frequency shifting and phase shifting. It is a good question whether the rectification and then chopping or inverting or the second method are less expensive.

With the boiler and water removed, there should be enough room in the GG-1 without the need to haul a special hotel power trailer.

[rtstasiak]

I love this thread. By the way, if one were to adapt the G to run from overhead again, AC, DC, HEP feed, or AC frequency REALLY isn't an issue, except for cost. A high-end inverter-controller-transformer setup can synthesize any kind of AC (or DC) desired, provided that you have sufficient kilowatt input where the wire meets the pants. You rectify your current to straight DC. Inside the inverter, a computer chip controls a pair of solid state valves or regulators, one (+) the other (-) and when you alternate between them, you get synthetic AC! Do this 25 times per second, and you get original GG-1 juice; 60 times per second, you get HEP or common household current. This setup is pricey because of the isolation needed between high and low voltage, the big banks of big semiconductors, and the high-efficiency power transformer needed to allow the critter to run on multiple voltages and even DC. Of course, you could still wire and run this as a slave unit to any mother diesel as well.

I grew up downt the street from Tesla and that whole crowd so polyphase AC from generators or solid state inverters is second nature.

Come on, ladies and germs! I know at least two well heeled railroaders/railfans who could sell a few stocks and bonds and get the project rolling within a week. How about it?

[Randy Stahl]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cbq9911a

Just my two cents....

PRR 4927 at IRM can be restored to run on IRM's 600v DC overhead. To make it a regular service locomotive you'd need to modify IRM's overhead to accommodate pantographs and trolley poles. You'd also need to add additional substation capacity to meet the engine's current demands.

It's doable, but very expensive. Close to a million dollars.

IRMs trolley is mostly compatable with pantographs, the GG1 motors will turn to carbon with direct current. The south shore little joe has and will run at IRM as well as the balence of the IRM south shore collection. They just run a little slower at half the voltage. South shore air compressors need armature changes so that at least you can pump air. A CTA 4000 series EL car is a suitable doner. With the GG1 there are no cheap easy fixes to get it running. As stated before you will need to buy 2 new transformers period, you are looking at a half a mil right there. All of the other issues can be dealt with cleverly but in the end is it worth it?
Randy

[Anonymous]

For those of us to young to have heard a GG-1 with our own ears, what did a GG-1 sound like? Was it a low hum or was it something else.

[cbq9911a]

Just my two cents....

PRR 4927 at IRM can be restored to run on IRM's 600v DC overhead. To make it a regular service locomotive you'd need to modify IRM's overhead to accommodate pantographs and trolley poles. You'd also need to add additional substation capacity to meet the engine's current demands.

It's doable, but very expensive. Close to a million dollars.

[oltmannd]

An inverter vs a diesel eng. gen set? Either way, it's OK by me!

[daveklepper]

No, you cannot do it with only transformer, but the AEM-7 does iti very nicely with a transformer and a compact electronics package and that is what is needed, not another piece of difficult to maintain rolling stock. Obviously the compact package from the AEM-7 is what should be used, with the right tap on the new transformer.

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Dutchrailnut

for more details on GG-1's see: http://www.steamlocomotive.com/GG1/
Getting Title would not be to hard, but moving a locomotive out of date for more than 20 years is.
To fix the frames with Volunteers is nearly impossible, you probably won't be able to get electrical parts anymore so you would be redisigning a new propulsion package for the unit .
Cabsignal allone is not an option so add to that a $200 000 microcab Acses system.

ps trainjunkie even if you own the locomotive it still has to be operated by the engineers of the railroad your running on.
so if you run it on NJT you use NJT crews, you run on MNCR you use MNCR crews etc.
unless you can find a museum line or abandoned line with 11.5 Kv overhead.

Don't need full Amtrak boondoggle overblown ACSES cab signal system, just Harmon Ultracab or US&S EL plus LSL. Total cost about $30,000 (~$10K if you scrounge the old EL system that may still be on some)

It could be operated by volunteers provided they held a valid locomotive engineer's licence and were either qualified on the territory or accompanied by a pilot who was.

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by trainjunky29

People--forget HEP equipment: you have 11, 000 volts above your head. Get a transformer for the HEP equipment. It shouldn't use up too much room, and you might not have to remove the boiler. I know that you could get new transformers, and not all the frames are cracked.

Sincerely,
Daniel Parks

Not so simple for the HEP. The HEP has to be 60Hz, not 25Hz. Can't do that with a transformer! You could use an HEP car (if you can find one) or an AEM7 to provide HEP.

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Dutchrailnut

The GG-1 was put to pasture mainly because all of them had cracked frames.
Tthey did not have HEP so todays trains could not be powered.
The cabs were so small the unions no longer accepted them, plus they need two persons in cab to look past long hood.

Even to restore a GG-1 for any railroad operations it would need to be made compliant to all the above problems.
pour new frames ?? nobody cast stuff that big anymore.
HEP car , not allowed in Penn station.
Make cab bigger ?? then it won't be a GG-1 anymore.

The frame cracks are no big deal - weld them up and normalize and you're good to go! (Just what PRR did all those years)

For excursion service, all you'd need is the cab signal system updated (~$30k) - other cab conditions wouldn't matter. A HEP car into Penn? Sure, why not? The GG1 hauled "Metroliners" did it all the time.

Getting a new trasformer built would be the big ticket item.

[daveklepper]

This is a doable project and just requires the money:

The obvioius candidate is the standard one, not "Rivits", at the Pennsylvania Railroad Musuem. It is close to the home rails where it can operate, and the owners can continue ownership and sponser trips themselves. The arrangements can be similar to what Steamtown offers with Private Car Lehigh Valley 353. Strassburg can sell tickets for the one coach coupled behind the GG-1 when their 0-6-0 steamer pushes it to and from the Lehman Place interchange track with Amtrak's Philadelphia - Harrisburg line.
If that line is converted to 60Hz, then of course, the GG-1 will have to be towed to and from Philadelphia to reach the power it needs to run. Obviously it have to be towed anyway on its first visit to Wilmington Shops which should do the work.

The project probably has to wait until Amtrak sorts out the Acela problems and settles into a more normal routine. The project requires lots of money, possibly as much as ten million dollars to do it right. It also requires a person as dedicated as the one funding the project but who is a good locomotive man, familiar with current practices in diesel locomotives, enought so he (or she) can interface with the people at Wilmington Shops who know their stuff. If it is one and the same person, even better. The first step is to get a fee quote from Amtrak to thoroughly inspect the locomotive at Wilmington. Of course the costs of transportation to and from, on its own wheels, and getting it shape to role, have to be added. Then Wilmington Shops and Amtrak should come up with estimates for alternatives in restoration, but all alternatives should include: (1) meeting all FRA requirements, (2) head end power compatible with Amfleet, (3) boiler and water for it removed, (3) all necessary ATC and signal equipment, (4) no hazardess material during maintenance or future overhauls, The the options should be chosen and the work scheduled.

[daveklepper]

If the ac propulsion system IS kept, and the locomotive does NOT use rectifier technology, regardless of what modern equipment is used in the control circuitry, the transformers, head-end power, you name it, if it takes 11,000V 25Hz from the overhead and the motors run on 25Hz, it will sound exactly like a GG-1 should sound. That would be the best modernization in my book. I'd go to rectifier technology only as a last resort. It was the 25Hz power in the motors that gave the GG-1 (and the MP-54 mu cars) their characteristic sounds.

[Dutchrailnut]

A GG-1 had 2 single phase motors per drive axle via a quill drive, not something any other railroad curently uses, for total of 12 motors.
If it does not sound like GG-1 its not a GG-1. and may just as well sit dead in a museum with a sound system playing the sounds.