We covered this exhaustively, and so did Trains in their discussion of the GG1.
The 387A motors are essentially the same construction as the New Haven design from which the twin-motor quill drive was derived. On the New Haven these operated quite happily on 750V DC from New Rochelle all the way into GCT, not just in '20mph mode' like the auxiliary electrics on the '50s 'lightweights' or the UA TurboTrain. One might easily assume, as I do, that a twin motor might be wound and insulated so that the two armatures are in series for 750V each, and run 'native' on 1500V instead of having to be connected in series pairs (i.e. three of them for a complete locomotive) which might tend to produce a giant sucking sound at any museum substation -- not that you'd need the full horsepower for any museum's logical operation.
The only relevance of 11kV (or 12.5kV) or 25-cycle AC is in the transformer, and those are irrevocably gone, Pyranol-contaminated paper and all. There is utterly no need to replicate any part of that for DC operation, as it involved complicated tap-changing arrangements for speed control.
The point of Mr. Klepper's use of AEM-7 components (the wheel diameter is technically very close, although of course the construction is not) is that you obtain a locomotive easily capable of 125mph performance from basically obsolescent and costed-down parts. The earlier problem was that Amtrak was highly reluctant to sell those parts for any operating purpose; the current problem is that I believe there are very few AEM-7s or components still available for the purpose, assuming you could manage the systems integration and inspection to convince all the 'powers that be' to let you play.
And then there's the question of redissolving the crystallization in the frames ... not particularly difficult, but not particularly trivial and not cheap, either. All this before we come to the MP54-level corrosion damage in the upperworks and welded casing metal; by now I'd expect even the bridge members to be suffering, particular around the concrete deck.
The Little Joe at the IRM was rebuilt for or by South Shore in 1949 to operate on 1500 volts DC, quite different for the 11000 volts 25 cycle AC for the GG1.
Lithonia OperatorI was shocked at how little space there was in the cab. Made me think of early submarines.
That was kind of the "Dirty little secret" of the GG1's, if that's the proper term, and maybe it isn't. As futuristic as they looked on the outside they were kind of on the primative side inside, again if that's the proper term. "Flash Gordon" on the outside, but regular 1930's electric on the inside.
I remember reading years back one rail museum with a GG1 kicked around the idea of running it powered by a generator on a flatcar, but nothing ever came of it. I don't remember who it was.
I was in the cab of a GG1 once, somewhere. Maybe the Railroaders Museum in Altoona? It was outdoors, and not spiffy.
I was shocked at how little space there was in the cab. Made me think of early submarines.
But what a cool loco! An awesome beast.
If one could be run sans catenary, do most folks here envision retaining the pantographs? It's probably heresy to say this, but it would look really cool without them; and maybe silly to keep them. But I guess if one can play "air guitar," why not air cables?
SD70DudeAs for the idea of a towable genset, I'd look into what SP/UP and BNSF have done with those 'snails' that power their rotary snowplows.
Or any mother/slug set, for that matter...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68 If one was serious about getting a GG1 (or any such preserved electric) actually running, I should think it wouldn't be difficult to build a mobile power source (ie, generator in a boxcar or maybe a baggage car) to make the locomotive run. Perhaps it would even be possible to build an ersatz catenary so the power came through the pantographs. Anything is possible if you have the money...
If one was serious about getting a GG1 (or any such preserved electric) actually running, I should think it wouldn't be difficult to build a mobile power source (ie, generator in a boxcar or maybe a baggage car) to make the locomotive run.
Perhaps it would even be possible to build an ersatz catenary so the power came through the pantographs.
Anything is possible if you have the money...
IRM runs their 'Little Joe' on the same 600vDC overhead power supply that is used by all their interurbans and streetcars, perhaps it would be possible to do something similar to a GG1 if one absolutely wanted to move it under its own power.
Of course, such a conversion would likely result in a neutered shell of the former beast that would have nowhere near the pulling power of the original design.
As for the idea of a towable genset, I'd look into what SP/UP and BNSF have done with those 'snails' that power their rotary snowplows.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
AnonymousI heard a rumor that someone had sequestered a GG-1 at the Illinois Railway Museum in Union, IL. Sounds pretty tall to me, but then stranger things have happened at Union.....in a delightful way.
I'm a long time member of IRM. IRM owns a GG1 which is on static display. To my knowledge, there are no plans to restore it to operating condition, nor could it be operated on IRM's rail line or anywhere else in the midwest. I'm not sure what is meant by the term "sequestered" in this context.
daveklepper Electroliner, 25Hz-commutator motors can run on DC just as efficiently as they can on 25Hz AC.
Electroliner, 25Hz-commutator motors can run on DC just as efficiently as they can on 25Hz AC.
For the appropriate AC commutator motor, they will run even more efficiently on DC than AC. There are some AC commutator motors that are fed via a field winding (equivalent to a transformer) where commutator is either shorted or connected to another field winding. IIRC, the motors for the initial MU cars used in Philly had such motors, but IIRC the GG1's motor were fed through the commutator and thus could run on DC.
charlie hebdoBut where could it run? Those few stretches of electrification aren't likely to allow it.
So true. No cat except on AMTRAK and I doubt they would touch it. I was supprised when they took IRM's Nebraska Zephyr. Which performed flawlessly and magnificently.
Electroliner 1935 My concept would be to take a transformer from an AE-7 and redesign the power modules to provide single phase 25 Hz output. Motors would not have to be rewound, just cleaned. Whether this is feasible and could be funded is beyond my pay grade. Also, mentioning T-1s. I have never forgotten seeing over 20 dead T-1s awaiting the torch in Columbus OH on a Cincinnati Railroad Club fan trip. What a sad sight. We did see J-1s in service for the coal to Sandusky and in ’56 I saw the Santa Fe “Texas” class 2-10-4s and PRR J-1s when I went to Worthington OH. They were BIG. Not as big as a Big Boy but they were notable. YOUTUBE has a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5zOCNNw6t0
My concept would be to take a transformer from an AE-7 and redesign the power modules to provide single phase 25 Hz output. Motors would not have to be rewound, just cleaned.
Whether this is feasible and could be funded is beyond my pay grade.
Also, mentioning T-1s. I have never forgotten seeing over 20 dead T-1s awaiting the torch in Columbus OH on a Cincinnati Railroad Club fan trip. What a sad sight.
We did see J-1s in service for the coal to Sandusky and in ’56 I saw the Santa Fe “Texas” class 2-10-4s and PRR J-1s when I went to Worthington OH. They were BIG. Not as big as a Big Boy but they were notable. YOUTUBE has a video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5zOCNNw6t0
But where could it run? Those few stretches of electrification aren't likely to allow it.
daveklepper Electroliner, 25Hz-commutator motors can run on DC just as efficiently as they can on 25Hz AC. No reason a GG1 could not be rebuilt as a regular rectifier locomtive, with its original motors, using standard, off-the-shelf equipment, and have its full horsepower and tractive effort capabilities. With the appropriate transformer, it could run on 25Hz. 50Hz. or 60Hz, 12,000 (11.000 - 12,500) or 25,000 volts. With some additional equipment, it could even be equipped with third-rail shoes and run on 600 or 750V DC.
No reason a GG1 could not be rebuilt as a regular rectifier locomtive, with its original motors, using standard, off-the-shelf equipment, and have its full horsepower and tractive effort capabilities.
With the appropriate transformer, it could run on 25Hz. 50Hz. or 60Hz, 12,000 (11.000 - 12,500) or 25,000 volts. With some additional equipment, it could even be equipped with third-rail shoes and run on 600 or 750V DC.
Money, Money, Money - who has the money to make it happen?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
zugmann There's enoguh GG1s preserved, so even as a fan I'd rather see efforts go to thing like dash-7s, dash-8s, dash-9s, -- well pretty much anything built after 1950.
There's enoguh GG1s preserved, so even as a fan I'd rather see efforts go to thing like dash-7s, dash-8s, dash-9s, -- well pretty much anything built after 1950.
While 16 GG-1's were preserved, not a single electric loco built for the New Haven was saved. Only a couple of EF-4's originally built for VGN were saved. I would loved to have seen an EP-5 saved. I don't know if it had transformers with PCB, but it did have rectifiers with Mercury.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/alcomike/20129122985/sizes/l/
Wiki has a list of all 16 preserved GG-1's.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_Railroad_class_GG1#cite_ref-Palmateer_37-0
54light15 GG1s in Syracuse, Cooperstown and maybe Dearborn? That sounds kind of odd to me that they would be preserved in areas that never had them when they were active. Along the NEC, sure. It would be nice to see one run again.
GG1s in Syracuse, Cooperstown and maybe Dearborn? That sounds kind of odd to me that they would be preserved in areas that never had them when they were active. Along the NEC, sure. It would be nice to see one run again.
Many locomotives are preserved in areas they never served. While C&O ran in MI, I doubt the Alleghany in the Henry Ford ever ran there. I would presume the effort would be a reflection of the technology, as opposed to a reflection of what ran in MI. There are a number of locomotives in the museum as well as the adjoining Greenfield Village. https://www.thehenryford.org/visit/henry-ford-museum/exhibits/railroads.
The GG1 in Syracuse is property of the Central New York Railroad Historical Society.
I'm not sure who owns the Cooperstown locomotives. Probably the Cooperstown and Charlotte Valley.
Most likely, they were available, cheap, and the railroad at the time was glad to get rid of them...
tree68One might opine that the reason so many GG1s were "preserved" was because they are environmental disasters waiting to happen, if you will.
That's entirely possible, but another reason could be they were lucky enough to survive into the preservation era and had homes waiting for them when they were retired.
I don't remember when this happened, but I recall reading the PRR did a study sometime in the post-war era where they considered ending electric operations and going completely with diesel power. In the end they decided against it, but if they ended electric operations, say in the early 50's, there might not have been any GG1's preserved at all. They'd have been as extinct as the T1's.
zugmannThere's enoguh GG1s preserved, so even as a fan I'd rather see efforts go to thing like dash-7s, dash-8s, dash-9s, -- well pretty much anything built after 1950.
One might opine that the reason so many GG1s were "preserved" was because they are environmental disasters waiting to happen, if you will.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmannWas that the one that was supposed to go to FLorida, or was that the other one? Will they be scrapped or rust away into nothing first?
Dunno - I'm working from social media reports on this one.
There's one in Syracuse which is being kept up at least cosmetically.
tree68One of the two GG1s at Cooperstown was rumored to be headed to Michigan and the Henry Ford (museum). To my knowledge, even that hasn't happened.
Was that the one that was supposed to go to FLorida, or was that the other one? Will they be scrapped or rust away into nothing first?
One of the two GG1s at Cooperstown was rumored to be headed to Michigan and the Henry Ford (museum). To my knowledge, even that hasn't happened.
Kalmbach already did the GG1 exhaustively enough, many years ago now: remember that layered exploded-view drawing that was so good? And before that, the founder of my high-school railroad club, Karl Zimmermann, wrote a better book on the GG1 than anyone currently at Kalmbach could even approximate.
You could add a couple of pages to update things to 2020, but there is precious little of positive interest to add...
BaltACD NATEDAGR8 Fund it and it will get built. No funds, no build.
NATEDAGR8
Fund it and it will get built. No funds, no build.
NATEDAGR8I agree, a new tranformer is the big problem, however, GE could probably scrape up a comparable transformer for it.
I agree, a new tranformer is the big problem, however, GE could probably scrape up a comparable transformer for it.
art11758, I think that you have seen one of the rotary converters which is usually a 60Hz polyphase motor driving an alternator with different pole pairs so a frequency change can be obtained.
The lower frequencies, especially in the early French, German and Swiss days were, because a low frequency AC motor has less sparking then the conventional AC motor running at 50 or 60 Hz.
DC was mostly used before and experiments were done with laminated steel in AC motors but sparking at the brushes caused extra stress and premature insulation breakdown which was somewhat reduced with the lower frequency.
In Europe 15 kV 16 2/3 Hz was and is still used in Germany, Switzerland, Austria, and parts of Norway, also with rotary motor alternator sets although in switzerland certain hydro stations provided the 15 kV 16 2/3 Hz for the railways I believe.
Some may have been replaced with solid state.
France has gone to 25 kV 50 Hz while Italy, Belgium have 3 kV DC and The Netherlands 1500 V DC.
The GG1 was a fantastic locomotive, unfortunately i have never seen one at work but read about these masters of engineering with amazing high power output and reliability.
It would be fantastic to see one in working order although the costs and manhours are probably prohibitive to realise it.
edited for typo's
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