Modelcar... Go to www.steamlocomotive.info and look at their video clips. They have a clip of 1361 in Scranton under their libraries selection
Quentin
Originally posted by Modelcar Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Saturday, April 2, 2005 8:45 AM ...Yes, remember of an article recently but didn't go back to check that one out but I do have it right here in the office in case I need to....Trouble is....I never throw a TRAINS mag. away....and I've been at it for a long time....What does one do with all of them...Guess we all have that problem. My stored ones are in boxes but they do start to add up. Just keep current year or so here in my {home}, office. Quentin Reply GP40-2 Member sinceJuly 2004 803 posts Posted by GP40-2 on Saturday, April 2, 2005 8:30 PM Oldtimer: Your claim that the N&W main handled more tonnage than the PRR main over the Alleghenies seems a little hard to believe. I recall reading that the PRR would send 120-140 trains per day over Horseshoe during the mid 1940's-early 1950's. Would you be so kind to provide yearly tonnage reports for both the N&W main and PRR main to back up your claim? Modelcar: Looking at USGS Topo maps, I found the following: NS's former PRR main over Horseshoe Curve gains around 1000 feet in elevation from Altoona PA to the Allegheny Summit. CSX's former B&O main over the Sandpatch Grade gains 1618 feet in elevation from Cumberland MD to the Allegheny Summit in PA CSX's former B&O main over the 17 MIle Grade gains 2000 feet in elevation from Cumberland MD to the Allegheny Summit in Altamont, MD CSX's former Tygart Subdivision creasted the Alleghenies on a 3% grade at Spruce, WV at 4066' elevation in the Shavers River Valley. It was the highest mainline in the eastern U.S. In this part of WV, the Allegheny Mountains rise nearly a mile out of the surrounding valleys. Reply fievel Member sinceJanuary 2003 277 posts Posted by fievel on Saturday, April 2, 2005 9:29 PM Marias Pass is the most beautiful part of Earth that God created! But any mountain action is great. Nothing like the sound of serious tonnage fighting upgrade or downgrade![:)] Cascade Green Forever ! GET RICH QUICK !! Count your Blessings. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, April 2, 2005 10:45 PM Saluda without question. Too bad this steepest mainline grade in the US is now railbanked. I had the good fortune of seeing it still in operation in 2000 when I attended a family wedding in Henderson, NC. Reply Edit spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Sunday, April 3, 2005 7:26 AM Here is my trick. First I catalog them & make a Word document for each year & list by month the articles that I want to be aware of for one reasons or another. As a example August 2004 Horseshoe Curve. Dec 2004 BNSF Stampede pass (As a example) Stories I have no interest in I do not list. Theeeeeeeeeeen go to Walgrens. They have plastic stackable shoe boxes $1.00 ea & put 1 year in the box put the top on it label it & now you are organized. [:D][:D] Originally posted by Modelcar [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Sunday, April 3, 2005 9:19 AM ....Yea, that would be great.....Don't know if I'm up to messing with them that much anymore....I do have them in boxes but not as well labeled as you mention. Sounds like a good plan if one cares to get back into them for references....I suppose my purpose more or less is to have them corralled for someone in the future. Have some "Railroad Magazine" copies back into the earlier 40's...! By the way, they were 25 cents a copy then..... Quentin Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Monday, April 4, 2005 4:07 AM Don't forget the N&W handled mostly coal. Coal = tonnage. The PRR mostly manifest (plus passengers). Manifest = mostly cubage. Possibly the PRR had lots more trains, the N&W more tonnage. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Monday, April 4, 2005 6:13 AM Thanks for that info about the quarter. Who is a math whiz out there who can tell us wjat that $0.25 is in todays $$$$$$$? I know the feeling of the cataloging but if you do it a little bit at a time it is not so bad & at least in my case I feel if say I was going to Detroit I would know exactly what edition to go to makes it worthwhile. Mine was only back to the 80s & a few 70s but the 40s is a real wow! [:p][:)] Originally posted by Modelcar Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Monday, April 4, 2005 8:56 AM ...Well let's see....back in the 40's {mid 40's}, a Chevrolet could be purchased for about 900 dollars....{a Fleetline model}...the better one....and the magazine as I said was 25 cents. Now an Impala {a better one}, will be somewhere between 25,000 and 30,000 dollars....and that similar magazine will be 6.00 dollars today....The price of the magazine jumped about 24 times and the price of the Chevrolet jumped about 30 times...Don't know how much the rate of inflation has increased from the 40's to now to make an estimate of what the 25 cents would equal now... It seems the mag. price above compares somewhat to the increase of the car price from back then to current prices....Of course wages had to be running along the same line too so it's all kind of relevant. Saw a 1953 Buick sedan sold on Barrett-Jackson auction in Palm Beach, Fl. over the weekend for 1.5 MILLION DOLLARS...Don't believe that followed along the path of inflation...but it was a special car that H. Hughes owned and had special mechanicals, etc....That really was wild to see someone pay that price for that...! Quentin Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Monday, April 4, 2005 9:09 AM Yes I owned a 61 Chevy Impala conv. Red & white with corvette flags because it had a BIG engine. Over 400HP! Dual ants & dual exhausts. Today probably 50Gs or more. Back down I had to trade the car in or I could not afford another. I still rue the day my mom gave away my Lionel Trains & throw away my BB cards as I collected them when Mantles rookie card came out. I guess all you can say is oh well about all those things you would like to have back today. [:p][:o)] Originally posted by Modelcar Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Monday, April 4, 2005 9:19 AM ....Sorry off cue here for a moment but just a comment: 61' Impala with that engine and if it was stock we're talkin' 409....I have a model of that very car in my home office here and it's a 409 {all white}...1:19 scale. Has a 4-speed tran. too. In that era I had a 348 ci 280 hp 1959 Impala. Had 3-twos. Then came a 62' SS 327. My model trains got away from me too...many years ago...oh to have them now Guess I must pay attention to real trains to satisfy that interest now....and of course I have been doing that for some many years....That's why I wound around the mountains down in N. C. to find and witness the Saluda grade. Quentin Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Monday, April 4, 2005 9:27 AM Actually my memory says it was 428HP but I could be incorrect. [:p][:)] I have found as I have gone out into the real RR world I seem to have lost some of my passion to run my HO trains. I rather watch a video of the real deal. I guess the HOs served a purpose until I had the opportunity to venture out into that real RR world. [:p][:o)] Originally posted by Modelcar [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Monday, April 4, 2005 5:08 PM Oh yes, my preference is real trains by far....The models I had preceeded HO by quite a few years...Specifically 027 gauge. Item: First production {1961} Chevy 409 ci engines were....360 hp....then 409 hp and finally later with 2-4bbl's 425 hp. Believe my memory serves me correctly on that. Quentin Reply Sterling1 Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Traveling in Middle Earth 795 posts Posted by Sterling1 on Monday, April 4, 2005 6:05 PM The three mountain grades that N&W/NS has with steam and diesel power. Donner is somewhere in my top 25-30 Tehachapi just for the loops and the scenery. I have to see Horse Shoe and Sand Patch for myself though before I decide . . . "There is nothing in life that compares with running a locomotive at 80-plus mph with the windows open, the traction motors screaming, the air horns fighting the rush of incoming air to make any sound at all, automobiles on adjacent highways trying and failing to catch up with you, and the unmistakable presence of raw power. You ride with fear in the pit of your stomach knowing you do not really have control of this beast." - D.C. Battle [Trains 10/2002 issue, p74.] Reply Sterling1 Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Traveling in Middle Earth 795 posts Posted by Sterling1 on Monday, April 4, 2005 6:32 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Sterling1 The three mountain grades that N&W/NS has with steam and diesel power. Donner is somewhere in my top 25-30 Tehachapi just for the loops and the scenery. I have to see Horse Shoe and Sand Patch for myself though before I decide . . . I ought to visit some of the major mountain grades around instead of looking at pictures. "There is nothing in life that compares with running a locomotive at 80-plus mph with the windows open, the traction motors screaming, the air horns fighting the rush of incoming air to make any sound at all, automobiles on adjacent highways trying and failing to catch up with you, and the unmistakable presence of raw power. You ride with fear in the pit of your stomach knowing you do not really have control of this beast." - D.C. Battle [Trains 10/2002 issue, p74.] Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Monday, April 4, 2005 9:53 PM ....Horseshoe is a very scenic location in the summertime....Plus the structure of the railroad sure tops it off. Read about the history and creation of the location before you visit to understand what is there and why and you will appreciate it more.... Quentin Reply cherokee woman Member sinceNovember 2003 From: Louisville, KY 9,002 posts Posted by cherokee woman on Monday, April 4, 2005 9:56 PM I don't have a favorite. Locomutt says if he has to pick a favorite, he picks Muldraugh Hill, on I-65, going towards Elizabethtown, KY. cherokee woman "O'Toole's law: Murphy was an optimist." Reply Dayliner Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: CN Seymour Industrial spur 262 posts Posted by Dayliner on Monday, April 4, 2005 10:23 PM Two that have been mentioned and three that haven't: 1. CPR's Field Hill over Kicking Horse Pass: two spiral tunnels, fantastic scenery, loads of history, and good traffic volume. 2. Soldier Summit, UT 3. UP's climb over the Blue Mountains in Oregon includes a neat horseshoe curve. 4. BC Rail (sorry, CN) up through Cheakamus Canyon, memorable for me because it's the only place I've seen steam work a steep grade: 3716 with a four-car passenger train doing 4 mph "I-think-I-can-I-think-I-can" 5. CN north of Lillooet to Kelly Lake, a spectacular climb from the Fraser River up to the Interior Plateau along the side of the canyon. Starting next year, you'll be able to ride passenger trains over it again (or take the WCRA's excursion next month). Reply GP40-2 Member sinceJuly 2004 803 posts Posted by GP40-2 on Monday, April 4, 2005 10:49 PM Dave: I realize the PRR had lots of passenger traffic on the main between Pittsburgh and Philly, but they also moved a tremendous amount of coal and steel products from the Pittsburgh area over Horseshoe too. What you really need to see is the yearly gross tonnage reports for both the PRR main and the N&W main for the years in question to find out if Oldtimer's statement is correct. So far, Oldtimer has not offered any proof for his statement. In any event, the N&W certainly had a much easier time getting over the Alleghenies. I believe it's mainline grade was only around 1% and gained only around 500 feet in elevation (I'll have to research the exact figures). Almost not worth calling it a mounatin grade. Nowhere near as tough as the PRR grade, and not even in the same league as the 2000' vertical rise B&O grades. Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Tuesday, April 5, 2005 8:52 AM ....If we count the location from Cumberland up....on the B&0, isn't that elevation gain figure much less that the 2000 ft. gain.....? Especially up around Sand Patch. And to get to Cumberland from the SE, the grade is really not mountain type railroading...Or am I assessing it wrong...? Quentin Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, April 5, 2005 9:10 AM The point remains that a line can have fewer trains with more tonnage at the same time. Of course in steam the Pennsy had a tremendous variety of smaller power with 2-10-0'sa, 2-8-2's, and 4-6-2's doing most of the work, until some J's and T-1's and an occasinal Q-2 came along, and then in diesels, first generation, there were Baldwin'sand Alcos as well as E-7's, E-8's, GP-7's, GP-9's, and F-7's, while the N&W diesselized with GP-9's for every single thing, and in steam in was pretty much just Y's and A's. In addtion to an easier grade, the N&W had more powerful locomotives, meaning fewer locomotives to the same job. The time the N&W really shone of us fans, though, was when it was still putting on a great steam show while the rest North America was diesel. Reply GP40-2 Member sinceJuly 2004 803 posts Posted by GP40-2 on Tuesday, April 5, 2005 11:29 AM Modelcar: From USGS Topography Maps The B&O line at the yards in Cumberland is at 640' elevation. The summit at Sandpatch is at 2258' elevation. (The mountain over Sandpatch Tunnel is around 3100' elevation) Vertical Rise= 1618' The 17 Mile Grade crests at 2628' at Altamont MD, for a 1988' vertical rise from Cumberland. What's was amazing (for Eastern railroading) was the Tygart Subdivision in WV. It crested the Allegheny Mountains in a valley at 4066' elevation. Even at that elevation, the ridges stood nearly 1000' above the line! Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Tuesday, April 5, 2005 11:44 AM ...Sure, the easten Allegheny range reaches up to the 6000 ft level. And just think out west, the Sante Fe crossed at Flagstaff at 7000 ft...! I can really dial into the 2258 height as my home area in Somerset Co., Pa. tops off at just above 2,200 ft. Stoystown, Pa.at the top of town. Quentin Reply MidlandPacific Member sinceFebruary 2003 1,138 posts Posted by MidlandPacific on Tuesday, April 5, 2005 1:48 PM Nobody's mentioned one of the best surviving narrow gauge jewels: the Guayaquil & Quito Railroad in Ecuador. Its ascent to Urbina Summit via the Chanchan River Canyon is as impressive as anything in Colorado, and it caps out at 11,841 feet, which tops Alpine Tunnel. AND you can ride on the roof. AND it's still run (when it runs, which isn't often) by telegraphed train order. And did I mention that you could ride on the roof? http://mprailway.blogspot.com "The first transition era - wood to steel!" Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, April 5, 2005 11:36 PM GP40-2 - Don't have the comparative tonnage figures at hand, but know that N&W had to move 2500 loads of coal across Alleghany per day plus an equal number of empties west; plus the time freights and passenger trains, plus the time freights and passenger trains off the Bristol Line. And didn't Pennsy move a lot of tonnage around Gallitzin summit on that low-grade line? Locomutt - back in 'ought-59, I rode IC 2613 through the tunnel on Muldraugh hill. It fit the tunnel about like a bullet fits a gun barrel. Nice little engine. Old Timer Reply Edit 1234 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. 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Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub
Cascade Green Forever ! GET RICH QUICK !! Count your Blessings.
Originally posted by Modelcar [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Sunday, April 3, 2005 9:19 AM ....Yea, that would be great.....Don't know if I'm up to messing with them that much anymore....I do have them in boxes but not as well labeled as you mention. Sounds like a good plan if one cares to get back into them for references....I suppose my purpose more or less is to have them corralled for someone in the future. Have some "Railroad Magazine" copies back into the earlier 40's...! By the way, they were 25 cents a copy then..... Quentin Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Monday, April 4, 2005 4:07 AM Don't forget the N&W handled mostly coal. Coal = tonnage. The PRR mostly manifest (plus passengers). Manifest = mostly cubage. Possibly the PRR had lots more trains, the N&W more tonnage. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Monday, April 4, 2005 6:13 AM Thanks for that info about the quarter. Who is a math whiz out there who can tell us wjat that $0.25 is in todays $$$$$$$? I know the feeling of the cataloging but if you do it a little bit at a time it is not so bad & at least in my case I feel if say I was going to Detroit I would know exactly what edition to go to makes it worthwhile. Mine was only back to the 80s & a few 70s but the 40s is a real wow! [:p][:)] Originally posted by Modelcar Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Monday, April 4, 2005 8:56 AM ...Well let's see....back in the 40's {mid 40's}, a Chevrolet could be purchased for about 900 dollars....{a Fleetline model}...the better one....and the magazine as I said was 25 cents. Now an Impala {a better one}, will be somewhere between 25,000 and 30,000 dollars....and that similar magazine will be 6.00 dollars today....The price of the magazine jumped about 24 times and the price of the Chevrolet jumped about 30 times...Don't know how much the rate of inflation has increased from the 40's to now to make an estimate of what the 25 cents would equal now... It seems the mag. price above compares somewhat to the increase of the car price from back then to current prices....Of course wages had to be running along the same line too so it's all kind of relevant. Saw a 1953 Buick sedan sold on Barrett-Jackson auction in Palm Beach, Fl. over the weekend for 1.5 MILLION DOLLARS...Don't believe that followed along the path of inflation...but it was a special car that H. Hughes owned and had special mechanicals, etc....That really was wild to see someone pay that price for that...! Quentin Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Monday, April 4, 2005 9:09 AM Yes I owned a 61 Chevy Impala conv. Red & white with corvette flags because it had a BIG engine. Over 400HP! Dual ants & dual exhausts. Today probably 50Gs or more. Back down I had to trade the car in or I could not afford another. I still rue the day my mom gave away my Lionel Trains & throw away my BB cards as I collected them when Mantles rookie card came out. I guess all you can say is oh well about all those things you would like to have back today. [:p][:o)] Originally posted by Modelcar Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Monday, April 4, 2005 9:19 AM ....Sorry off cue here for a moment but just a comment: 61' Impala with that engine and if it was stock we're talkin' 409....I have a model of that very car in my home office here and it's a 409 {all white}...1:19 scale. Has a 4-speed tran. too. In that era I had a 348 ci 280 hp 1959 Impala. Had 3-twos. Then came a 62' SS 327. My model trains got away from me too...many years ago...oh to have them now Guess I must pay attention to real trains to satisfy that interest now....and of course I have been doing that for some many years....That's why I wound around the mountains down in N. C. to find and witness the Saluda grade. Quentin Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Monday, April 4, 2005 9:27 AM Actually my memory says it was 428HP but I could be incorrect. [:p][:)] I have found as I have gone out into the real RR world I seem to have lost some of my passion to run my HO trains. I rather watch a video of the real deal. I guess the HOs served a purpose until I had the opportunity to venture out into that real RR world. [:p][:o)] Originally posted by Modelcar [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Monday, April 4, 2005 5:08 PM Oh yes, my preference is real trains by far....The models I had preceeded HO by quite a few years...Specifically 027 gauge. Item: First production {1961} Chevy 409 ci engines were....360 hp....then 409 hp and finally later with 2-4bbl's 425 hp. Believe my memory serves me correctly on that. Quentin Reply Sterling1 Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Traveling in Middle Earth 795 posts Posted by Sterling1 on Monday, April 4, 2005 6:05 PM The three mountain grades that N&W/NS has with steam and diesel power. Donner is somewhere in my top 25-30 Tehachapi just for the loops and the scenery. I have to see Horse Shoe and Sand Patch for myself though before I decide . . . "There is nothing in life that compares with running a locomotive at 80-plus mph with the windows open, the traction motors screaming, the air horns fighting the rush of incoming air to make any sound at all, automobiles on adjacent highways trying and failing to catch up with you, and the unmistakable presence of raw power. You ride with fear in the pit of your stomach knowing you do not really have control of this beast." - D.C. Battle [Trains 10/2002 issue, p74.] Reply Sterling1 Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Traveling in Middle Earth 795 posts Posted by Sterling1 on Monday, April 4, 2005 6:32 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Sterling1 The three mountain grades that N&W/NS has with steam and diesel power. Donner is somewhere in my top 25-30 Tehachapi just for the loops and the scenery. I have to see Horse Shoe and Sand Patch for myself though before I decide . . . I ought to visit some of the major mountain grades around instead of looking at pictures. "There is nothing in life that compares with running a locomotive at 80-plus mph with the windows open, the traction motors screaming, the air horns fighting the rush of incoming air to make any sound at all, automobiles on adjacent highways trying and failing to catch up with you, and the unmistakable presence of raw power. You ride with fear in the pit of your stomach knowing you do not really have control of this beast." - D.C. Battle [Trains 10/2002 issue, p74.] Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Monday, April 4, 2005 9:53 PM ....Horseshoe is a very scenic location in the summertime....Plus the structure of the railroad sure tops it off. Read about the history and creation of the location before you visit to understand what is there and why and you will appreciate it more.... Quentin Reply cherokee woman Member sinceNovember 2003 From: Louisville, KY 9,002 posts Posted by cherokee woman on Monday, April 4, 2005 9:56 PM I don't have a favorite. Locomutt says if he has to pick a favorite, he picks Muldraugh Hill, on I-65, going towards Elizabethtown, KY. cherokee woman "O'Toole's law: Murphy was an optimist." Reply Dayliner Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: CN Seymour Industrial spur 262 posts Posted by Dayliner on Monday, April 4, 2005 10:23 PM Two that have been mentioned and three that haven't: 1. CPR's Field Hill over Kicking Horse Pass: two spiral tunnels, fantastic scenery, loads of history, and good traffic volume. 2. Soldier Summit, UT 3. UP's climb over the Blue Mountains in Oregon includes a neat horseshoe curve. 4. BC Rail (sorry, CN) up through Cheakamus Canyon, memorable for me because it's the only place I've seen steam work a steep grade: 3716 with a four-car passenger train doing 4 mph "I-think-I-can-I-think-I-can" 5. CN north of Lillooet to Kelly Lake, a spectacular climb from the Fraser River up to the Interior Plateau along the side of the canyon. Starting next year, you'll be able to ride passenger trains over it again (or take the WCRA's excursion next month). Reply GP40-2 Member sinceJuly 2004 803 posts Posted by GP40-2 on Monday, April 4, 2005 10:49 PM Dave: I realize the PRR had lots of passenger traffic on the main between Pittsburgh and Philly, but they also moved a tremendous amount of coal and steel products from the Pittsburgh area over Horseshoe too. What you really need to see is the yearly gross tonnage reports for both the PRR main and the N&W main for the years in question to find out if Oldtimer's statement is correct. So far, Oldtimer has not offered any proof for his statement. In any event, the N&W certainly had a much easier time getting over the Alleghenies. I believe it's mainline grade was only around 1% and gained only around 500 feet in elevation (I'll have to research the exact figures). Almost not worth calling it a mounatin grade. Nowhere near as tough as the PRR grade, and not even in the same league as the 2000' vertical rise B&O grades. Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Tuesday, April 5, 2005 8:52 AM ....If we count the location from Cumberland up....on the B&0, isn't that elevation gain figure much less that the 2000 ft. gain.....? Especially up around Sand Patch. And to get to Cumberland from the SE, the grade is really not mountain type railroading...Or am I assessing it wrong...? Quentin Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, April 5, 2005 9:10 AM The point remains that a line can have fewer trains with more tonnage at the same time. Of course in steam the Pennsy had a tremendous variety of smaller power with 2-10-0'sa, 2-8-2's, and 4-6-2's doing most of the work, until some J's and T-1's and an occasinal Q-2 came along, and then in diesels, first generation, there were Baldwin'sand Alcos as well as E-7's, E-8's, GP-7's, GP-9's, and F-7's, while the N&W diesselized with GP-9's for every single thing, and in steam in was pretty much just Y's and A's. In addtion to an easier grade, the N&W had more powerful locomotives, meaning fewer locomotives to the same job. The time the N&W really shone of us fans, though, was when it was still putting on a great steam show while the rest North America was diesel. Reply GP40-2 Member sinceJuly 2004 803 posts Posted by GP40-2 on Tuesday, April 5, 2005 11:29 AM Modelcar: From USGS Topography Maps The B&O line at the yards in Cumberland is at 640' elevation. The summit at Sandpatch is at 2258' elevation. (The mountain over Sandpatch Tunnel is around 3100' elevation) Vertical Rise= 1618' The 17 Mile Grade crests at 2628' at Altamont MD, for a 1988' vertical rise from Cumberland. What's was amazing (for Eastern railroading) was the Tygart Subdivision in WV. It crested the Allegheny Mountains in a valley at 4066' elevation. Even at that elevation, the ridges stood nearly 1000' above the line! Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Tuesday, April 5, 2005 11:44 AM ...Sure, the easten Allegheny range reaches up to the 6000 ft level. And just think out west, the Sante Fe crossed at Flagstaff at 7000 ft...! I can really dial into the 2258 height as my home area in Somerset Co., Pa. tops off at just above 2,200 ft. Stoystown, Pa.at the top of town. Quentin Reply MidlandPacific Member sinceFebruary 2003 1,138 posts Posted by MidlandPacific on Tuesday, April 5, 2005 1:48 PM Nobody's mentioned one of the best surviving narrow gauge jewels: the Guayaquil & Quito Railroad in Ecuador. Its ascent to Urbina Summit via the Chanchan River Canyon is as impressive as anything in Colorado, and it caps out at 11,841 feet, which tops Alpine Tunnel. AND you can ride on the roof. AND it's still run (when it runs, which isn't often) by telegraphed train order. And did I mention that you could ride on the roof? http://mprailway.blogspot.com "The first transition era - wood to steel!" Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, April 5, 2005 11:36 PM GP40-2 - Don't have the comparative tonnage figures at hand, but know that N&W had to move 2500 loads of coal across Alleghany per day plus an equal number of empties west; plus the time freights and passenger trains, plus the time freights and passenger trains off the Bristol Line. And didn't Pennsy move a lot of tonnage around Gallitzin summit on that low-grade line? Locomutt - back in 'ought-59, I rode IC 2613 through the tunnel on Muldraugh hill. It fit the tunnel about like a bullet fits a gun barrel. Nice little engine. Old Timer Reply Edit 1234 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Originally posted by Modelcar Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Monday, April 4, 2005 8:56 AM ...Well let's see....back in the 40's {mid 40's}, a Chevrolet could be purchased for about 900 dollars....{a Fleetline model}...the better one....and the magazine as I said was 25 cents. Now an Impala {a better one}, will be somewhere between 25,000 and 30,000 dollars....and that similar magazine will be 6.00 dollars today....The price of the magazine jumped about 24 times and the price of the Chevrolet jumped about 30 times...Don't know how much the rate of inflation has increased from the 40's to now to make an estimate of what the 25 cents would equal now... It seems the mag. price above compares somewhat to the increase of the car price from back then to current prices....Of course wages had to be running along the same line too so it's all kind of relevant. Saw a 1953 Buick sedan sold on Barrett-Jackson auction in Palm Beach, Fl. over the weekend for 1.5 MILLION DOLLARS...Don't believe that followed along the path of inflation...but it was a special car that H. Hughes owned and had special mechanicals, etc....That really was wild to see someone pay that price for that...! Quentin Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Monday, April 4, 2005 9:09 AM Yes I owned a 61 Chevy Impala conv. Red & white with corvette flags because it had a BIG engine. Over 400HP! Dual ants & dual exhausts. Today probably 50Gs or more. Back down I had to trade the car in or I could not afford another. I still rue the day my mom gave away my Lionel Trains & throw away my BB cards as I collected them when Mantles rookie card came out. I guess all you can say is oh well about all those things you would like to have back today. [:p][:o)] Originally posted by Modelcar Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Monday, April 4, 2005 9:19 AM ....Sorry off cue here for a moment but just a comment: 61' Impala with that engine and if it was stock we're talkin' 409....I have a model of that very car in my home office here and it's a 409 {all white}...1:19 scale. Has a 4-speed tran. too. In that era I had a 348 ci 280 hp 1959 Impala. Had 3-twos. Then came a 62' SS 327. My model trains got away from me too...many years ago...oh to have them now Guess I must pay attention to real trains to satisfy that interest now....and of course I have been doing that for some many years....That's why I wound around the mountains down in N. C. to find and witness the Saluda grade. Quentin Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Monday, April 4, 2005 9:27 AM Actually my memory says it was 428HP but I could be incorrect. [:p][:)] I have found as I have gone out into the real RR world I seem to have lost some of my passion to run my HO trains. I rather watch a video of the real deal. I guess the HOs served a purpose until I had the opportunity to venture out into that real RR world. [:p][:o)] Originally posted by Modelcar [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Monday, April 4, 2005 5:08 PM Oh yes, my preference is real trains by far....The models I had preceeded HO by quite a few years...Specifically 027 gauge. Item: First production {1961} Chevy 409 ci engines were....360 hp....then 409 hp and finally later with 2-4bbl's 425 hp. Believe my memory serves me correctly on that. Quentin Reply Sterling1 Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Traveling in Middle Earth 795 posts Posted by Sterling1 on Monday, April 4, 2005 6:05 PM The three mountain grades that N&W/NS has with steam and diesel power. Donner is somewhere in my top 25-30 Tehachapi just for the loops and the scenery. I have to see Horse Shoe and Sand Patch for myself though before I decide . . . "There is nothing in life that compares with running a locomotive at 80-plus mph with the windows open, the traction motors screaming, the air horns fighting the rush of incoming air to make any sound at all, automobiles on adjacent highways trying and failing to catch up with you, and the unmistakable presence of raw power. You ride with fear in the pit of your stomach knowing you do not really have control of this beast." - D.C. Battle [Trains 10/2002 issue, p74.] Reply Sterling1 Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Traveling in Middle Earth 795 posts Posted by Sterling1 on Monday, April 4, 2005 6:32 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Sterling1 The three mountain grades that N&W/NS has with steam and diesel power. Donner is somewhere in my top 25-30 Tehachapi just for the loops and the scenery. I have to see Horse Shoe and Sand Patch for myself though before I decide . . . I ought to visit some of the major mountain grades around instead of looking at pictures. "There is nothing in life that compares with running a locomotive at 80-plus mph with the windows open, the traction motors screaming, the air horns fighting the rush of incoming air to make any sound at all, automobiles on adjacent highways trying and failing to catch up with you, and the unmistakable presence of raw power. You ride with fear in the pit of your stomach knowing you do not really have control of this beast." - D.C. Battle [Trains 10/2002 issue, p74.] Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Monday, April 4, 2005 9:53 PM ....Horseshoe is a very scenic location in the summertime....Plus the structure of the railroad sure tops it off. Read about the history and creation of the location before you visit to understand what is there and why and you will appreciate it more.... Quentin Reply cherokee woman Member sinceNovember 2003 From: Louisville, KY 9,002 posts Posted by cherokee woman on Monday, April 4, 2005 9:56 PM I don't have a favorite. Locomutt says if he has to pick a favorite, he picks Muldraugh Hill, on I-65, going towards Elizabethtown, KY. cherokee woman "O'Toole's law: Murphy was an optimist." Reply Dayliner Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: CN Seymour Industrial spur 262 posts Posted by Dayliner on Monday, April 4, 2005 10:23 PM Two that have been mentioned and three that haven't: 1. CPR's Field Hill over Kicking Horse Pass: two spiral tunnels, fantastic scenery, loads of history, and good traffic volume. 2. Soldier Summit, UT 3. UP's climb over the Blue Mountains in Oregon includes a neat horseshoe curve. 4. BC Rail (sorry, CN) up through Cheakamus Canyon, memorable for me because it's the only place I've seen steam work a steep grade: 3716 with a four-car passenger train doing 4 mph "I-think-I-can-I-think-I-can" 5. CN north of Lillooet to Kelly Lake, a spectacular climb from the Fraser River up to the Interior Plateau along the side of the canyon. Starting next year, you'll be able to ride passenger trains over it again (or take the WCRA's excursion next month). Reply GP40-2 Member sinceJuly 2004 803 posts Posted by GP40-2 on Monday, April 4, 2005 10:49 PM Dave: I realize the PRR had lots of passenger traffic on the main between Pittsburgh and Philly, but they also moved a tremendous amount of coal and steel products from the Pittsburgh area over Horseshoe too. What you really need to see is the yearly gross tonnage reports for both the PRR main and the N&W main for the years in question to find out if Oldtimer's statement is correct. So far, Oldtimer has not offered any proof for his statement. In any event, the N&W certainly had a much easier time getting over the Alleghenies. I believe it's mainline grade was only around 1% and gained only around 500 feet in elevation (I'll have to research the exact figures). Almost not worth calling it a mounatin grade. Nowhere near as tough as the PRR grade, and not even in the same league as the 2000' vertical rise B&O grades. Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Tuesday, April 5, 2005 8:52 AM ....If we count the location from Cumberland up....on the B&0, isn't that elevation gain figure much less that the 2000 ft. gain.....? Especially up around Sand Patch. And to get to Cumberland from the SE, the grade is really not mountain type railroading...Or am I assessing it wrong...? Quentin Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, April 5, 2005 9:10 AM The point remains that a line can have fewer trains with more tonnage at the same time. Of course in steam the Pennsy had a tremendous variety of smaller power with 2-10-0'sa, 2-8-2's, and 4-6-2's doing most of the work, until some J's and T-1's and an occasinal Q-2 came along, and then in diesels, first generation, there were Baldwin'sand Alcos as well as E-7's, E-8's, GP-7's, GP-9's, and F-7's, while the N&W diesselized with GP-9's for every single thing, and in steam in was pretty much just Y's and A's. In addtion to an easier grade, the N&W had more powerful locomotives, meaning fewer locomotives to the same job. The time the N&W really shone of us fans, though, was when it was still putting on a great steam show while the rest North America was diesel. Reply GP40-2 Member sinceJuly 2004 803 posts Posted by GP40-2 on Tuesday, April 5, 2005 11:29 AM Modelcar: From USGS Topography Maps The B&O line at the yards in Cumberland is at 640' elevation. The summit at Sandpatch is at 2258' elevation. (The mountain over Sandpatch Tunnel is around 3100' elevation) Vertical Rise= 1618' The 17 Mile Grade crests at 2628' at Altamont MD, for a 1988' vertical rise from Cumberland. What's was amazing (for Eastern railroading) was the Tygart Subdivision in WV. It crested the Allegheny Mountains in a valley at 4066' elevation. Even at that elevation, the ridges stood nearly 1000' above the line! Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Tuesday, April 5, 2005 11:44 AM ...Sure, the easten Allegheny range reaches up to the 6000 ft level. And just think out west, the Sante Fe crossed at Flagstaff at 7000 ft...! I can really dial into the 2258 height as my home area in Somerset Co., Pa. tops off at just above 2,200 ft. Stoystown, Pa.at the top of town. Quentin Reply MidlandPacific Member sinceFebruary 2003 1,138 posts Posted by MidlandPacific on Tuesday, April 5, 2005 1:48 PM Nobody's mentioned one of the best surviving narrow gauge jewels: the Guayaquil & Quito Railroad in Ecuador. Its ascent to Urbina Summit via the Chanchan River Canyon is as impressive as anything in Colorado, and it caps out at 11,841 feet, which tops Alpine Tunnel. AND you can ride on the roof. AND it's still run (when it runs, which isn't often) by telegraphed train order. And did I mention that you could ride on the roof? http://mprailway.blogspot.com "The first transition era - wood to steel!" Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, April 5, 2005 11:36 PM GP40-2 - Don't have the comparative tonnage figures at hand, but know that N&W had to move 2500 loads of coal across Alleghany per day plus an equal number of empties west; plus the time freights and passenger trains, plus the time freights and passenger trains off the Bristol Line. And didn't Pennsy move a lot of tonnage around Gallitzin summit on that low-grade line? Locomutt - back in 'ought-59, I rode IC 2613 through the tunnel on Muldraugh hill. It fit the tunnel about like a bullet fits a gun barrel. Nice little engine. Old Timer Reply Edit 1234 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. 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Originally posted by Modelcar Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Monday, April 4, 2005 9:19 AM ....Sorry off cue here for a moment but just a comment: 61' Impala with that engine and if it was stock we're talkin' 409....I have a model of that very car in my home office here and it's a 409 {all white}...1:19 scale. Has a 4-speed tran. too. In that era I had a 348 ci 280 hp 1959 Impala. Had 3-twos. Then came a 62' SS 327. My model trains got away from me too...many years ago...oh to have them now Guess I must pay attention to real trains to satisfy that interest now....and of course I have been doing that for some many years....That's why I wound around the mountains down in N. C. to find and witness the Saluda grade. Quentin Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Monday, April 4, 2005 9:27 AM Actually my memory says it was 428HP but I could be incorrect. [:p][:)] I have found as I have gone out into the real RR world I seem to have lost some of my passion to run my HO trains. I rather watch a video of the real deal. I guess the HOs served a purpose until I had the opportunity to venture out into that real RR world. [:p][:o)] Originally posted by Modelcar [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Monday, April 4, 2005 5:08 PM Oh yes, my preference is real trains by far....The models I had preceeded HO by quite a few years...Specifically 027 gauge. Item: First production {1961} Chevy 409 ci engines were....360 hp....then 409 hp and finally later with 2-4bbl's 425 hp. Believe my memory serves me correctly on that. Quentin Reply Sterling1 Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Traveling in Middle Earth 795 posts Posted by Sterling1 on Monday, April 4, 2005 6:05 PM The three mountain grades that N&W/NS has with steam and diesel power. Donner is somewhere in my top 25-30 Tehachapi just for the loops and the scenery. I have to see Horse Shoe and Sand Patch for myself though before I decide . . . "There is nothing in life that compares with running a locomotive at 80-plus mph with the windows open, the traction motors screaming, the air horns fighting the rush of incoming air to make any sound at all, automobiles on adjacent highways trying and failing to catch up with you, and the unmistakable presence of raw power. You ride with fear in the pit of your stomach knowing you do not really have control of this beast." - D.C. Battle [Trains 10/2002 issue, p74.] Reply Sterling1 Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Traveling in Middle Earth 795 posts Posted by Sterling1 on Monday, April 4, 2005 6:32 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Sterling1 The three mountain grades that N&W/NS has with steam and diesel power. Donner is somewhere in my top 25-30 Tehachapi just for the loops and the scenery. I have to see Horse Shoe and Sand Patch for myself though before I decide . . . I ought to visit some of the major mountain grades around instead of looking at pictures. "There is nothing in life that compares with running a locomotive at 80-plus mph with the windows open, the traction motors screaming, the air horns fighting the rush of incoming air to make any sound at all, automobiles on adjacent highways trying and failing to catch up with you, and the unmistakable presence of raw power. You ride with fear in the pit of your stomach knowing you do not really have control of this beast." - D.C. Battle [Trains 10/2002 issue, p74.] Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Monday, April 4, 2005 9:53 PM ....Horseshoe is a very scenic location in the summertime....Plus the structure of the railroad sure tops it off. Read about the history and creation of the location before you visit to understand what is there and why and you will appreciate it more.... Quentin Reply cherokee woman Member sinceNovember 2003 From: Louisville, KY 9,002 posts Posted by cherokee woman on Monday, April 4, 2005 9:56 PM I don't have a favorite. Locomutt says if he has to pick a favorite, he picks Muldraugh Hill, on I-65, going towards Elizabethtown, KY. cherokee woman "O'Toole's law: Murphy was an optimist." Reply Dayliner Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: CN Seymour Industrial spur 262 posts Posted by Dayliner on Monday, April 4, 2005 10:23 PM Two that have been mentioned and three that haven't: 1. CPR's Field Hill over Kicking Horse Pass: two spiral tunnels, fantastic scenery, loads of history, and good traffic volume. 2. Soldier Summit, UT 3. UP's climb over the Blue Mountains in Oregon includes a neat horseshoe curve. 4. BC Rail (sorry, CN) up through Cheakamus Canyon, memorable for me because it's the only place I've seen steam work a steep grade: 3716 with a four-car passenger train doing 4 mph "I-think-I-can-I-think-I-can" 5. CN north of Lillooet to Kelly Lake, a spectacular climb from the Fraser River up to the Interior Plateau along the side of the canyon. Starting next year, you'll be able to ride passenger trains over it again (or take the WCRA's excursion next month). Reply GP40-2 Member sinceJuly 2004 803 posts Posted by GP40-2 on Monday, April 4, 2005 10:49 PM Dave: I realize the PRR had lots of passenger traffic on the main between Pittsburgh and Philly, but they also moved a tremendous amount of coal and steel products from the Pittsburgh area over Horseshoe too. What you really need to see is the yearly gross tonnage reports for both the PRR main and the N&W main for the years in question to find out if Oldtimer's statement is correct. So far, Oldtimer has not offered any proof for his statement. In any event, the N&W certainly had a much easier time getting over the Alleghenies. I believe it's mainline grade was only around 1% and gained only around 500 feet in elevation (I'll have to research the exact figures). Almost not worth calling it a mounatin grade. Nowhere near as tough as the PRR grade, and not even in the same league as the 2000' vertical rise B&O grades. Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Tuesday, April 5, 2005 8:52 AM ....If we count the location from Cumberland up....on the B&0, isn't that elevation gain figure much less that the 2000 ft. gain.....? Especially up around Sand Patch. And to get to Cumberland from the SE, the grade is really not mountain type railroading...Or am I assessing it wrong...? Quentin Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, April 5, 2005 9:10 AM The point remains that a line can have fewer trains with more tonnage at the same time. Of course in steam the Pennsy had a tremendous variety of smaller power with 2-10-0'sa, 2-8-2's, and 4-6-2's doing most of the work, until some J's and T-1's and an occasinal Q-2 came along, and then in diesels, first generation, there were Baldwin'sand Alcos as well as E-7's, E-8's, GP-7's, GP-9's, and F-7's, while the N&W diesselized with GP-9's for every single thing, and in steam in was pretty much just Y's and A's. In addtion to an easier grade, the N&W had more powerful locomotives, meaning fewer locomotives to the same job. The time the N&W really shone of us fans, though, was when it was still putting on a great steam show while the rest North America was diesel. Reply GP40-2 Member sinceJuly 2004 803 posts Posted by GP40-2 on Tuesday, April 5, 2005 11:29 AM Modelcar: From USGS Topography Maps The B&O line at the yards in Cumberland is at 640' elevation. The summit at Sandpatch is at 2258' elevation. (The mountain over Sandpatch Tunnel is around 3100' elevation) Vertical Rise= 1618' The 17 Mile Grade crests at 2628' at Altamont MD, for a 1988' vertical rise from Cumberland. What's was amazing (for Eastern railroading) was the Tygart Subdivision in WV. It crested the Allegheny Mountains in a valley at 4066' elevation. Even at that elevation, the ridges stood nearly 1000' above the line! Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Tuesday, April 5, 2005 11:44 AM ...Sure, the easten Allegheny range reaches up to the 6000 ft level. And just think out west, the Sante Fe crossed at Flagstaff at 7000 ft...! I can really dial into the 2258 height as my home area in Somerset Co., Pa. tops off at just above 2,200 ft. Stoystown, Pa.at the top of town. Quentin Reply MidlandPacific Member sinceFebruary 2003 1,138 posts Posted by MidlandPacific on Tuesday, April 5, 2005 1:48 PM Nobody's mentioned one of the best surviving narrow gauge jewels: the Guayaquil & Quito Railroad in Ecuador. Its ascent to Urbina Summit via the Chanchan River Canyon is as impressive as anything in Colorado, and it caps out at 11,841 feet, which tops Alpine Tunnel. AND you can ride on the roof. AND it's still run (when it runs, which isn't often) by telegraphed train order. And did I mention that you could ride on the roof? http://mprailway.blogspot.com "The first transition era - wood to steel!" Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, April 5, 2005 11:36 PM GP40-2 - Don't have the comparative tonnage figures at hand, but know that N&W had to move 2500 loads of coal across Alleghany per day plus an equal number of empties west; plus the time freights and passenger trains, plus the time freights and passenger trains off the Bristol Line. And didn't Pennsy move a lot of tonnage around Gallitzin summit on that low-grade line? Locomutt - back in 'ought-59, I rode IC 2613 through the tunnel on Muldraugh hill. It fit the tunnel about like a bullet fits a gun barrel. Nice little engine. Old Timer Reply Edit 1234 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Originally posted by Modelcar [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Monday, April 4, 2005 5:08 PM Oh yes, my preference is real trains by far....The models I had preceeded HO by quite a few years...Specifically 027 gauge. Item: First production {1961} Chevy 409 ci engines were....360 hp....then 409 hp and finally later with 2-4bbl's 425 hp. Believe my memory serves me correctly on that. Quentin Reply Sterling1 Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Traveling in Middle Earth 795 posts Posted by Sterling1 on Monday, April 4, 2005 6:05 PM The three mountain grades that N&W/NS has with steam and diesel power. Donner is somewhere in my top 25-30 Tehachapi just for the loops and the scenery. I have to see Horse Shoe and Sand Patch for myself though before I decide . . . "There is nothing in life that compares with running a locomotive at 80-plus mph with the windows open, the traction motors screaming, the air horns fighting the rush of incoming air to make any sound at all, automobiles on adjacent highways trying and failing to catch up with you, and the unmistakable presence of raw power. You ride with fear in the pit of your stomach knowing you do not really have control of this beast." - D.C. Battle [Trains 10/2002 issue, p74.] Reply Sterling1 Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Traveling in Middle Earth 795 posts Posted by Sterling1 on Monday, April 4, 2005 6:32 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Sterling1 The three mountain grades that N&W/NS has with steam and diesel power. Donner is somewhere in my top 25-30 Tehachapi just for the loops and the scenery. I have to see Horse Shoe and Sand Patch for myself though before I decide . . . I ought to visit some of the major mountain grades around instead of looking at pictures. "There is nothing in life that compares with running a locomotive at 80-plus mph with the windows open, the traction motors screaming, the air horns fighting the rush of incoming air to make any sound at all, automobiles on adjacent highways trying and failing to catch up with you, and the unmistakable presence of raw power. You ride with fear in the pit of your stomach knowing you do not really have control of this beast." - D.C. Battle [Trains 10/2002 issue, p74.] Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Monday, April 4, 2005 9:53 PM ....Horseshoe is a very scenic location in the summertime....Plus the structure of the railroad sure tops it off. Read about the history and creation of the location before you visit to understand what is there and why and you will appreciate it more.... Quentin Reply cherokee woman Member sinceNovember 2003 From: Louisville, KY 9,002 posts Posted by cherokee woman on Monday, April 4, 2005 9:56 PM I don't have a favorite. Locomutt says if he has to pick a favorite, he picks Muldraugh Hill, on I-65, going towards Elizabethtown, KY. cherokee woman "O'Toole's law: Murphy was an optimist." Reply Dayliner Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: CN Seymour Industrial spur 262 posts Posted by Dayliner on Monday, April 4, 2005 10:23 PM Two that have been mentioned and three that haven't: 1. CPR's Field Hill over Kicking Horse Pass: two spiral tunnels, fantastic scenery, loads of history, and good traffic volume. 2. Soldier Summit, UT 3. UP's climb over the Blue Mountains in Oregon includes a neat horseshoe curve. 4. BC Rail (sorry, CN) up through Cheakamus Canyon, memorable for me because it's the only place I've seen steam work a steep grade: 3716 with a four-car passenger train doing 4 mph "I-think-I-can-I-think-I-can" 5. CN north of Lillooet to Kelly Lake, a spectacular climb from the Fraser River up to the Interior Plateau along the side of the canyon. Starting next year, you'll be able to ride passenger trains over it again (or take the WCRA's excursion next month). Reply GP40-2 Member sinceJuly 2004 803 posts Posted by GP40-2 on Monday, April 4, 2005 10:49 PM Dave: I realize the PRR had lots of passenger traffic on the main between Pittsburgh and Philly, but they also moved a tremendous amount of coal and steel products from the Pittsburgh area over Horseshoe too. What you really need to see is the yearly gross tonnage reports for both the PRR main and the N&W main for the years in question to find out if Oldtimer's statement is correct. So far, Oldtimer has not offered any proof for his statement. In any event, the N&W certainly had a much easier time getting over the Alleghenies. I believe it's mainline grade was only around 1% and gained only around 500 feet in elevation (I'll have to research the exact figures). Almost not worth calling it a mounatin grade. Nowhere near as tough as the PRR grade, and not even in the same league as the 2000' vertical rise B&O grades. Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Tuesday, April 5, 2005 8:52 AM ....If we count the location from Cumberland up....on the B&0, isn't that elevation gain figure much less that the 2000 ft. gain.....? Especially up around Sand Patch. And to get to Cumberland from the SE, the grade is really not mountain type railroading...Or am I assessing it wrong...? Quentin Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, April 5, 2005 9:10 AM The point remains that a line can have fewer trains with more tonnage at the same time. Of course in steam the Pennsy had a tremendous variety of smaller power with 2-10-0'sa, 2-8-2's, and 4-6-2's doing most of the work, until some J's and T-1's and an occasinal Q-2 came along, and then in diesels, first generation, there were Baldwin'sand Alcos as well as E-7's, E-8's, GP-7's, GP-9's, and F-7's, while the N&W diesselized with GP-9's for every single thing, and in steam in was pretty much just Y's and A's. In addtion to an easier grade, the N&W had more powerful locomotives, meaning fewer locomotives to the same job. The time the N&W really shone of us fans, though, was when it was still putting on a great steam show while the rest North America was diesel. Reply GP40-2 Member sinceJuly 2004 803 posts Posted by GP40-2 on Tuesday, April 5, 2005 11:29 AM Modelcar: From USGS Topography Maps The B&O line at the yards in Cumberland is at 640' elevation. The summit at Sandpatch is at 2258' elevation. (The mountain over Sandpatch Tunnel is around 3100' elevation) Vertical Rise= 1618' The 17 Mile Grade crests at 2628' at Altamont MD, for a 1988' vertical rise from Cumberland. What's was amazing (for Eastern railroading) was the Tygart Subdivision in WV. It crested the Allegheny Mountains in a valley at 4066' elevation. Even at that elevation, the ridges stood nearly 1000' above the line! Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Tuesday, April 5, 2005 11:44 AM ...Sure, the easten Allegheny range reaches up to the 6000 ft level. And just think out west, the Sante Fe crossed at Flagstaff at 7000 ft...! I can really dial into the 2258 height as my home area in Somerset Co., Pa. tops off at just above 2,200 ft. Stoystown, Pa.at the top of town. Quentin Reply MidlandPacific Member sinceFebruary 2003 1,138 posts Posted by MidlandPacific on Tuesday, April 5, 2005 1:48 PM Nobody's mentioned one of the best surviving narrow gauge jewels: the Guayaquil & Quito Railroad in Ecuador. Its ascent to Urbina Summit via the Chanchan River Canyon is as impressive as anything in Colorado, and it caps out at 11,841 feet, which tops Alpine Tunnel. AND you can ride on the roof. AND it's still run (when it runs, which isn't often) by telegraphed train order. And did I mention that you could ride on the roof? http://mprailway.blogspot.com "The first transition era - wood to steel!" Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, April 5, 2005 11:36 PM GP40-2 - Don't have the comparative tonnage figures at hand, but know that N&W had to move 2500 loads of coal across Alleghany per day plus an equal number of empties west; plus the time freights and passenger trains, plus the time freights and passenger trains off the Bristol Line. And didn't Pennsy move a lot of tonnage around Gallitzin summit on that low-grade line? Locomutt - back in 'ought-59, I rode IC 2613 through the tunnel on Muldraugh hill. It fit the tunnel about like a bullet fits a gun barrel. Nice little engine. Old Timer Reply Edit 1234 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
QUOTE: Originally posted by Sterling1 The three mountain grades that N&W/NS has with steam and diesel power. Donner is somewhere in my top 25-30 Tehachapi just for the loops and the scenery. I have to see Horse Shoe and Sand Patch for myself though before I decide . . .
http://mprailway.blogspot.com
"The first transition era - wood to steel!"
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.