Why are GE locomotives better than EMD?

[Anonymous]

Bean counters...........................................................


I understand business, I'm a student in a business college. I am almost done with school, at that time I hope to be lucky and get a job with a Rail-road, something I would really enjoy working for. Until then I know nothing about what goes on with the finance and accounting of Locomotives and operating expenses (rail, maintainence, fuel). I think that Class 1 railroads and all railroads for that matter, prefer a GE to an EMD, and some may not, but when it comes down to the wire, when there is a load to be pulled from here to there, and when you take account of what locomotives operate the most, that is the most in use pushing and pulling these loads, it is General Electric. EMD may have the guns, but GE got the #s. Results are results from this point, not something difficult to understand.

Also, the 2 GEs for the price of 1 EMD is just not real, you will never get me to believe that one, now maybe if your talkin to of those trashed C36-7s, 2 of them for one EMD, then alright, but if your talkin say 2 D9-40CWs for the price of one SD70M in NSs case, then I say to you, get real.

[Anonymous]

It sounds like an arbitrary number, but Wabash is saying the same things that I have heard. I can't attest to the actual dollars, but, GEs are alot cheaper....alot! The only positive thing that I have to say for GE is that they are built in the USA and that in itself is a BIG plus. I have been told that the EMDs are assembled in Mexico. Too many of our jobs are going there! GEs are a piece of *** compared to the EMD. The quality of the cab components just doesn't match the GM product....period. But given the American product (quality not being blamed on the craftsmen), I will have to say that I will not **** and moan about them anymore. BUY AMERICAN DAMMIT! Our jobs depend on it.
Ken

[Anonymous]

Thats the spirit, too bad when it comes time to invest in these machines the RRs go for the low cost, and believe me, it's not always the ones made in america. The reason companies export thier labor and manufacturing to other places outside U.S.A. is because the cost is much cheaper. You can pay a mexican 5$ an hour to do the same thing an american can do but the american requires way more than 5$/hour, not to mention the benefits that the employer must pay the worker.

C'mon, GEs are not that big of a piece of trash, they can't be, there is no way. I just need some feedback from others that actually take no side, nuetral parties.

D9-40CW

[wabash1]

Well if you want a job on a class one after school then you are headed in the right direction with a attitude like yours. I can tell you that they told me 1mil is what they paid for a ge unit and a new sd was 2 mil. not hard to figure out. but a collage boy would know more about that. and a emd pays for its self 10 times over and is still running how many old ge engines do you see.

you are almost done with school did you take the course in common sense. we have 1000 more emd units than ge and you are seeing more emd pulling the pack than ge. why you ask it is because you can get there in a emd where a ge will fail. the old southern and the old n&w both was a emd railroad . but in recent years started buying ge units now they are back to buying emd.

I am also not here to change your mind make you believe anything . most bean counters look at numbers and say that is the way it is. and never looking to see why. fuel cost against maintance if they wont pull a load then they wont burn fuel why cause most engineers will have the unit isolated and just idling. its like towing a vehicle racks up miles but aint doing anything. looks impressive till you find out why.

the short of it is companys are going back to emd they have said they are tired of trains not making it because of the ge units . as far as units being made in mexico ive not heard that. but the ones who keep saying to buy american go out into the parking lot and drive home in their toyotas and hondas.. i dont have a non american made vehicle some parts may be from other countries but everything was assembled here in the usa. I am nuetral on these units dash 9 is junk dash 8 is junk the c44 is fair . at that is it. the only emd unit i have had problem with is a sd50. and it is usually dynamic brake. before counting beans get on these engines and be out there for a week riding these trains then go do the math.

[Anonymous]

I still say buy American Wabash. I drive a Ford and ride a Harley......As far as the, "college boy," thing goes. It is only gonna get worse. We have a new batch of new hire trainmasters running around that have never turned a wheel and are running this rr (or so they think). Never turned a wheel, but, they read about it in class. Hell, why didn't they read about running an engine too so they could become textbook engineers. Just my rant.
Ken

[mudchicken]

IronKen:
(1) Amused beyond words IF future operating management is all coming out of college and none from the ranks? Thought that after all this time that a degree is a tool, not a ticket to entitlement. Know the M/W -Engineering side is more than a little concerned that there is no training program and a lack of new people in the pipeline (and a big age gap)......

(2) I have a client on a start-up shortline that looked at EMD and GE secondhand power, wound up with a C-420. The C-420, not in the best condition, has outlasted 3 EMD's paired with it. It pulls like a champ and does not need to go fast. Client is out looking for additional power again if it can be found at the right price (and it is a buyers market now for used locos)..... If another M-420 or C-424/5 appears, then there is a new trend here.

[Anonymous]

Yeah, Mud. One of them (22 year old female) was saying how when she was a full fledged TM, she wasn't gonna put up with any of the crews ***. I told her that with that attitude, she would go far...........to the far end of the yard to see what a mess we make for her and scratch her little head when she has to finger out how to fix the bowel blockage we leave for her. I told her that at the end of our shift, we will go home and forget about it and her explaining to the terminal sup. will just be beginning. Some of the *** they pump these neophytes heads full of amazes me. As far as no programs to train M/W personnel........what for????? They will just scab it out. They don't have to ride on that crap, we do. Some of those old section guys absolutely know their stuff. It is amazing! I'm sure that you are one of the good ones Mud! I trust the old dudes judgement, not these podunk operations that pay their help dirt to sling this crap togeather. At 10.00 an hr, why should they care!
Ken

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken

I still say buy American Wabash. I drive a Ford and ride a Harley......As far as the, "college boy," thing goes. It is only gonna get worse. We have a new batch of new hire trainmasters running around that have never turned a wheel and are running this rr (or so they think). Never turned a wheel, but, they read about it in class. Hell, why didn't they read about running an engine too so they could become textbook engineers. Just my rant.
Ken

Ha Ha here we are now probably uneducated bashing an educated. I am sure you people know way more about the Locomotives and what ever it is that you are educated in, for example maintainence or way, locomotive maintainence, locomotive engineer, conductor, etc...... You know your stuff, you are not un-educated, don't let me sound like going to college is better than not going. I chose to go and here I am, I learn about aspects of Business that nobody, unless educated in it can understand. It is the same way with the abovementioned fields of railroad work, I know nothing about it, I wish I did!!! If it were up to me, I would go to school all my life, but unfortunatly I need an income, school ain't cheap. The trainmasters know a hell of alot more than you care to know, I do believe to be a train master you out rank and are in charge of a huge division of operation. And Railroads are not going to hire somebody that is undereducated than say an engineer or some other employee. Trainmasters have more responsibility than just doing the work you people do. I am not saying they are far superior and smarter, I am just saying they take more risk, are in charge of alot, and know more about thier work than most of us think we know.

I agree with you on the matter of a trainmaster that has no experiance thinking they run the show, when they have no clue about how things work, but with experiance that they will get on the job they will become the true runners of the road.

[Mookie]

i am not going to get into this discussion any farther than to comment - I have worked with PHDs and MDs - and on several occasions, neither one could operate a 2 line telephone.

[wabash1]

I am not going to get into a EMD vs GE bashing. and im not getting into a bashing contest with silvo. Hee has a lot to learn and common sense may or may not be one. remeber this if you get into railroading the men working ( switchman ,conductors engineers ) will make you or break you. we know what to do better than the trainmaster we know are work and can do 8 hours work in 4 hrs. we know cost of running the job we know that trainmasters haft to answer for the over run of the budget.

Iron ken your ford may not be american made. there are many makes of traditional american iron that is made in canada or mexico. and all i need to tell you where your vehicle was made is the first didget of the cars serial number..

Mookie isnt that amazing how a simple thing as a telephone some people cant operate. or talk into the wrong end.

[Anonymous]

well here is my common sense lesson to you all.



Why do the trainmasters get paid more than you, if you know how to do more than them. If you can answer this one for me, I will stop school asap and jump into the RR head first, until then I am going to sit here and learn about life and things far greater than anything you can learn outside of universities. Maybe the problem with the phone is that they don't get paid to use it, they get paid to use thier 7+years of education to try to manage people like you, who will do pretty much what ever you are told to do, so this is why you go to school, you are at the top of the list, no phones, that is for you to do, and believe me when it comes down to it, there is no comparison for education.


THEY CAN'T TAKE IT FROM YOU. take everything else, everything, including all the trains and roads and everything, and what you have upstairs in your head is still there.

[edblysard]

Silvio,
Boy, if you think railroads are run like other businesses are, your in for a rude awakeing.
There is a completely different culture at work than anywhere else, completly polarized, them vs. us, suits vs. labor.
And, before you jump in with the though that trainmasters are paid better, or bigger bucks than us un-educated workers, trust me, several of our locomotive engineers working the extra board take home more than our senior trainmasters do.
The vast majority of senior management at almost every railroad have their jobs not because of their education, or skill and experience, but because their brother in law, brother, Dad or Dad's friend helped get it for them.
Granted, there are some that have worked their way up through the ranks, but thats the exception, not the norm.
Education without experience is a dangerous mix, and it often leads to fantastic screw ups.
Now you are right about one thing, education cant be taken away, lost or stolen.
But it is no substitution for experience.
So, before you tell us, they guys who daily make the railroads run, and run smoothly, without trainmasters having to micro manage what we do, how things are, you might try doing the actual work yourself, instead of relying on your book learning.
Before you tell a locomotive engineer he has to be wrong about the quality of a machine he runs 8 to 12 hours a day, put your fanny in the seat and try it yourself.
Before you extoll the virtues of trainmasters, try following their instructions, with out getting killed, because they belive the book version of switching, instead of listening to the guys who work that lead for years on end, accident free..

Oh, and yes Virginia, GE are designed to not be reubuilt, they are engineered as a one time use piece of equipment, where as EMD designs their machines to be rebuilt several times over.
Ed

[mudchicken]

Mr. Silvio:

Whoa! - before we go off and do IT again.....

Mr. Ed Blysard is dead-on serious (and correct) with the above comments. Wisdom and hands-on experience will often outweigh booksmarts and a degree. Another thing to be aware of is that most college graduates come out into the workplace with zilch for people handling skills. Before you blow off some of what Ed, Mookie, Wabash and the others are saying, take a deep breath, step back, stop, listen and observe what's going on around you (what works and what is certainly not). When you have been around a while, take some of those lessons you learned off the job and carefully apply them to make an improvement (little steps first - learn to crawl, then walk and finally run), Contribute where you can. Some of your best career lessons are not going to come out of a textbook. As I hinted at earlier, a degree is not some kind of "instant entitlement", that extra pay and that extra responsibility should be earned.

Before we create another incident: (1) I think I'm guilty of starting it with a comment back to Ironken, (2) The amusement is with history repeating itself (this definately happened on Santa Fe in both the operating and engineering departments at least twice in my memory), (3) nothing here is mean spirited and (4) there are an awful lot of folks out there in the operating crafts with degrees that they no longer use. And above all, good railroaders (blue or white collar) are an unusual and special bunch. Nobody here is in total lockstep with another guys opinion either, but we will respect those who will not agree if they respect us as well.

In a heartbeat, I'd take my two engineering degrees and go to work on the railroad with Ed, Wabash, Ken ,CShave and the others even though they come at this forum from a totally different set of circumstances. I might even learn something totally new. They enjoy what they do for a living and it shows, plus they are willing to share.

Mudchicken

[edblysard]

Mr Silivo,
Wasnt trying to be snide, but serious.
Before you try to explain to me the value of a degree, in any field, understand I am one of those odd folks who have the smarts, just not smart enough to get it on paper.
Ran a 26 bay auto repair shop, then two major auto part stores, then spent six years with my states attorney generals office as a investigator, and now have 7 years railroading.
Experience counts.
I know your courses teach you businesses run following a certan set of rules, but your books fail to explain the culture of railroading, or the stratified nature of the suits vs. labor.

If you are rating success as the take home salary, then a whole lot of T&E employees beat the heck out of a lot of management.

Trainmasters are, for the most part, the bottom rung in the management ladder, in simple terms, they are the utility men and gophers for the superintendent.

Most do not have hands on experience, except a year or two before promotion.
Trust me, in seven years, I still havent learned enough to consider myself anywhere close to knowing it all.

Railroads dont follow the standard business pratices found in just about evey other big business or industry.
You have to work here to understand, or have the time to read a posting several pages long.

I dont run a locomotive, but I do rely on one, every single day.

Never had a GE product perform as well or consistantly as the oldest EMD.

Why did railroads buy, and continue to buy GE, if they are not as good as EMD?.
Lots of reasons, but when the current GE designs hit the production line, railroads were desperate for motive power, and had the money to spend.

GE reconized this, and offered them something to fill the void, a cheap locomotive, ready now, with excellent financing and even better deals if your trade in was a EMD.
You buy a GE, use it till it is beyond repair, then trade it in to GE for the next one.
Saves you on shop forces, on hand parts, rebuild costs and storage on all of that.
Just run it till the wheels fall off, trade it in.

EMD failed to step up to the plate, they were still busy on the SD90MAC.

GE made an offer railroads couldnt resist.

EMD made a fantastic machine, just a few years too late to recapture their market dominance.

And it all depends on the railroads policy.

Some carriers perfer not to have the problems inherient with a heavy shop force, back shops to rebuild locomotives, or pay for the service.
They find it cheaper on the bottom line to keep trading in their GEs for new GEs.
Its sorta like leasing a car instead of buying one.

Others find they can save money by rebuilding their exsisting EMD fleets, and find they can get twenty more years out of their SD40-2s for a fraction of the cost of a new GE.

And they expect their new EMDs to be built just like the old ones, with rebuilding in mind.

As for working with locomotives, I will take a EMD over any GE product, they respond quicker, and will run, and run, and run some more, even with a traction motor burned up or cut out.
If you can keep your GE running, they are not too horrible, but any problem, even the smallest, will shut them down, they just are not designed to have a marginal performance window, it either all works, or none of it does, period.
EMDs will run with a traction motor burned out, a plugged fuel filter, dirty oil, and a leaky cylinder, they are that tough.

No, its not like your S10 Blazer, locomotives from EMD were designed to be beat up.
Remember, EMD was a stand alone company for years, and as a part of GM it is operated on a totaly different concept than the automobile business.

I flat yard switch, kicking cars for eight hours every day.
GEs cant keep up, or last.
I have gotten better work out of a old SD9, over 40 years old, than a brand new from the factory Dash 9.

It all depends on your railroads policy.

But for the most part, the folks who do the actual work perfer EMD, its just a better build, better designed machine.

The toaster joke is due to the fact that a lot of GEs have stack/exhaust fires, or, funny as it may be, electrical fires.
Lots of them.
So we refer to them as burned out toasters.

Now, I know your in college from another post you made, and are full of the idea that when you get out, you will have the knowledge to do things better than others, and are ready to charge out there and change the world!
Good luck to you, on whatever mission or goal you set for yourself.

But, until you lace up your work boots, slip on a pair of gloves, grab a switch list and your radio, and come ride a 100 car cut being shoved into a yard, please dont try to tell me what does and dosnt work well, what locomotive performs better, or how to do my job.

If, on the other hand, your willing to listen to those that do this for a living, and a rough guess would be if you totaled up the years of service of the real railroaders here who responded to you, they would total over 125,
then you just might learn something your books dont know!
Stay Frosty,[:D]
Ed

[Anonymous]

Silvio, some of the upper management makes some big bucks, but, usually the run of the mill TM makes less than TY&E. I can tell you that I grossed $5280.00 last half (15 days) and am at $4000.00 even for this half that just ended. The college trained new know it all TMs just don't bring home that kind of whip. I seldom mark off! I am very close to having a simple associates degree, but, make that kinda cash with no piece of paper. 8-10 hrs at home and I am back at work. So before you make arbitrary statements about someones earning potential, you need to do some homework.
Ken

[Mookie]

And that my young friend is an education you can't get in school. And you got it for free!

Mookie

[wabash1]

a train master pay scale is 35k to 50k. a conductor will make 40k to 50k and i make much more than that. but you dont want to believe what we say and some where you might have not heard the statement of education is nothing with out common sense. we have enough of them types running around now so take the hint and learn from the ranks the people who do this. we can make your job easier and make you look better. to make it easy for you a little story.

one day all the parts of the body got to gether to see who was going to be the boss. the eyes said i should be the boss i let him see where he is going the brain said i should be the boss i do all the thinking the legs said i should be the boss i take him everywhere he wants to go. and the argued on then the rectum spoke up. he said i should be the boss and all the rest of the body parts laughed ha ha ha the rectum wanting to be the boss. the rectum got mad closed up. After a few days the eyes got cloudy the brain got foggy and the legs got weak.

moral is you dont haft to be the brains to be the boss ... all you need to be is a rectum
this was cleaned up for obvious reasons

[Anonymous]

Hey Wabash, nice story, but, if the A-hole is the supreme boss then that means that the TMs are the supreme bosses. They are mostly A-holes. Hehehehe. BTW my Ford was assembled in Kansas City, Mo at the Claycomo plant. I know it was only assembled there, the parts could have been made in timbuktu, but, at least my union bros put the damn thing togeather. My Harley has a few foreign parts on it, but it was assembled by the I.A.M. in sunny Wisconsin. Your conductors are only making 40-50K...wow the NS is abusing them or they layoff alot. We have some old heads holding locals making 90k+. They do have certificates from the "school of hard knocks." I think that school has campuses in every state. I also worked with a college grad that just got outta conductor class that signed up to take the Front line supervisor test before class was even complete. Hmmmmm no RR experience and the company was allready looking at him for a TM position. Yep, sounds about right.
Ken

[wabash1]

the old heads are making more than what i stated but the young guns mark off all weekends. it dont matter what they make they are never there anyways. but always seem to complain alot. when they are.

[Anonymous]

Hey coach, I think neither is better. They both growl, they both shake the hell out of the earth when the rumble by, and they smell so delicious, I could lick the damn things... Well maybe not so much the last part.

Anyhow, EMD should be noted for the SD40-2, that locmotive has nothing but good behind it's name. GE, well, they did the C44-9W, and I have to say, those things ride like a beaut, even on jointed rail.

I know EMD is hooped, but hey, that's business, and it sucks. Let's just enjoy railroading as it is, and what it was before too mnay stupid politicians and "idealists" revamp everything.

[Anonymous]

I can only respond at first ed, (everyone else has tried to talk sense, but lost me along the way, kind of like disturbance, espically one of you, like a pain in my a**) in the manner that is me. I respect you more than any other college student would ever. In that sense I respect your colleagues as well. I understand what you have to say, And I appreciate your comments. I can relate to this, believe me, I have no idea about half of the things I think I know.

Just one thing I ask, view me as that kid that can do all the bookwork, all the paper tests and such, but dont's mistake me for a donkeys behind and think I don't know about the experiance. If I had the $ and the power, I would not be in school, I would be in business, experiance is no substitute, you are telling this to someone who lives by that. Alot of those people you are talking about, not me, those that follow the book in leave of the what is real, not on the paper, the kind of stuff you can't learn from reading, alot of these people are in places they should not be. I am the exception to your average college student future suit, there are a thousand different stereotypes for what I am, but I am not the average. Let me tell you about how ignorant and just plain stupid most of the entire college population is, if they knew a portion of what is real, this country would be dangerous. I think there are only a few people that run the real show, and all my point was, seriously, was that if I ever some way, by chance became a trainmaster, you would be guaranteed to love your superior for once, there would be no more them vs. us, there would be no more of I know more than you, there would be me sitting beside you and saying well, show me the way...... Then I'd be on.

[edblysard]

Actually,
If we could get by the "Suits vs. labor" concept, most railroads would make even more money.
But the misconception, and the us vs them crud, is so ingrained into the railroad culture, I doubt it will ever go away.
If I didnt have to go to work, I would go into more detail.
Dont mistake plain speaking with arrogance.
I was serious, when i said you could save the world.
One person can make a difference.
Ed

[brilondon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by autiger777

Todd,
I'm afraid things aren't that simple. Even though EMD locomotives are assembled in London, Ontario, alot of the components that go into these locomotives, including the prime movers, are still made in the United States. It's also a fair assumption that GE locomotives assembled in Erie, PA have some components made outside of the US.

As for your political statement, wasn't it Democrat Bill 'Slick Willie' Clinton that signed the North American Free Agreement (NAFTA)?

The General electric locomotives that CN purchased has more Canadian content then the GM's. That was what they told was the big reason for their purchase.

Oh yeah. It was Ronald Reagan and Brian Mulroney who signed the initial FTA and subsequently endorsed the inclusion of Mexico into what is known as NAFTA.

[wabash1]

thank you for the compliment. I can also see you wont make it in railroading as it seems you can dish it out but not take it. and anyone who has been in railroading for any period of time ( say 2 days ) can see the line that you are putting out. every new trainmaster does the same thing. and all i tell them I will still be here when your long gone. most get fired, and im still working out of the same terminal.

[Granny74]

I recently saw a train being pulled by a new 9000 engines, I thought. Am I correct with that number and was it a GE or an EMD? With my limited eyesight, I may have made a mistake, but they were brand new because I talked to the conductor.
Bob from AZ

[jeffboy]

hi all. I have pulled trains from Calgary to field B.C & GE do not like wet rail or snow rail, they get up to speed & you feel like you are waving side to side real bad, EMD SD40-2s pull real good, EMD SD90MAC orSD9043MAC sound like they want to do more. GE like to jump when they start to pull, have even jumped off the rail, it's all what you have for the leader and as long as it pulls who cares.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wabash1

thank you for the compliment. I can also see you wont make it in railroading as it seems you can dish it out but not take it. and anyone who has been in railroading for any period of time ( say 2 days ) can see the line that you are putting out. every new trainmaster does the same thing. and all i tell them I will still be here when your long gone. most get fired, and im still working out of the same terminal.

Same terminal huh ? ? ? As long as your happy does it really matter ? ? ?


I did'nt give you any compliment, you are not the one, and I'm not on the offensive, so don't comment on "dishing out and taking it" when I have never done such things, I just poke my nose here and there, and I like what all of you have to say (that is relevant to what the subject or matter at hand is), and when people start to go off about certain things such in this case as EMD I like to at least attemp to level the field. I am no expert, have said it before, and will continue to do so. I am wondering, what line am I putting out ? ? ?[8]

[dharmon]

Sivio,

I'm not saying this to make you angry, really. But I think you need to relax some. Enjoy school while you're there and don't get so serious, there's plenty of time to do that later. Take all the advice, good or bad and file it away to use later.
The suits versus labor thing doen't just apply to the RRs, it pretty much appiles to any industry where that relationship exists....even in the military. Many a brand spanking new junior officer has alienated his senior NCOs by coming in with a "I'm the one who went to college attitude and this is how we're gonna do it", and likewise there are plenty who have been burned by blindly following the advice of those he thought we're in the know. You have to find your happy medium and nothing, nothing will help you do it like experience. Like the others have said, and it applies to any industry, you gotta go out and see what makes it tick. Management doesn't have to know the specific monkey skills how to run a loco, but a good one will have ridden along to get a flavor of it. If your going to brief an aircrew to do a mission, having flown one or two will help you see it from a crew's perspective and better see what their requirements are. I don't fix the planes, but the guys that do work for me. I can't tell you how to rebuild a reduction gearbox, but I know what it entails and the hoops the guys will have to jump through to fix the one I wreck, and I'm the one that has to make them understand why they're giving up their weekend to do it.

I offer you this from the management perspective. So in the mean time, take the advice onboard, don't sweat the comments, just file them away as learning points. And remember EMDs rule.

Dan

[Anonymous]

Do any of you know of a super GE locomotive (not sure of HP) that there is only one of (a demonstrator perhaps)? My brother said he saw a GE locomotive profiled on either Discovery Channel's Extreme Machines show or History Channel's Modern Marvels show, but couldn't remember the model or where it was... may not have been in US....

[Anonymous]

Silvio
Am I the one that you consider a pain in the ***? If I **** you off now on this little ol forum, you would hate to be my T master. This is nothing. I truly love to give new college know it all TMs a run for their money (most every rail does). Some of these old heads take great pride in busting TMs b*lls. Like Wabash said....I will still be doing that and watch them come and go in 20 years.
Ken