Why are GE locomotives better than EMD?

[Anonymous]

How 'bout we put this little "Ford vs Chevy" confab to rest? Reading some of these posts, and no, I'm not going to waste my time reading ALL of them, I can see that most of you folks have no idea of what you are talking about. You might be better qualified to debate "Thomas the tank engine" vs "The little engine that could".
As far as GMD vs GE, well, whatever gets the job done for the lesser cost, THAT'S the winner.
And, no. I'm not going to tell you which is my preference.

[Anonymous]

That is a very good possibility on the wining and dining. I have certainly seen it work on my job. I definitely agree that both companies have produced models that will not make the 10 best list, and EMD will, in time, at least make four cycle engines, as by the year 2010, they will not be able to meet the EPA emission standards that will be in effect for locomotives by then. That sound that you hear is from the railroads that would be having a fit if only one locomotive manufacturer was all they had to purchase from! It might be sort of neat, though. If you have never heard an SD-90MAC-H running at speed, they sound like an Alco 244 series engine. Just think of the clanging and banging we would hear at trackside. Have a good one!

[eolafan]

GIVE THAT MAN AN "AMEN BROTHER"!

[Anonymous]

Does THAT mean his legacy is DEAD? (let me answer that for you Mr Welk) NO!!

GE is still very much the house that Jack built....

GE is a traditional company, steeped BIG on what has worked...When I was studying business management, we we still studying "Boulwarism" decades after it was in vogue at GE

And a wanna, an a two-a....

[Anonymous]

Heh, Heh, Heh, I just wanted to bring this up to the top of the list!!!! LoL
Tim from Wisconsin

[Anonymous]

No his legacy isn't dead,they'll be cleaning up the Hudson River for decades to come account GE dumping PCBs into it.

[Anonymous]

Well stated, unless you are qualified,how about leaving motive power performance assessment to the pros. The foamers are much better off waving at the engineer as he goes by.

[Anonymous]

Man, I must be on dope. Most coal trains that I tack power on here on the BNSF are powered by EMD. We tend to run GE dash9s on the high speed intermodal stuff. Maybe we should follow Uncle Pete's lead and power our trains differently.....not!

[Anonymous]

No kidding Bobishna, I feel that no opinions should be given unless you have had to run/ride in one of the units on a 12 hr trip. And I know that there are only a few of us that have actually had to do that that have added to this post. As far as I see it, there is one that I prefer, but, as long as the heater/AC works, I don't care that much. The rest of you just keep taking pictures and read about it in books. Enjoy railfanning. If you had to do it for a living the shine and romance would wear off of the RR fast.

[Anonymous]

Living near Grafton Wv i have wached the finest EMD and GE have to offer do battle with heavy coal trains on some of the toughest upgrades in this country.Although i am an EMD fan,units from both builders handle the job quite well.Seems to me it is simply in the best interest of the railroads to keep both builders in buisness to ensure a competitive product is always coming out of either factory.

[Anonymous]

GEs are not better than EMDs, quite the opposite. They are cheaper than EMDs and therein lies the rub...

LC

[zardoz]

Two things I liked about the EMD SD40-2 was
1. The sound; when two or more SDs were together, the sound from them woulod occasionally harmonize and reinforce each other, creating a subtle, but distinct, low frequency thobbing that sounded so cool. The old E-8 units we used in suburban service would do that occasionally also.

2. The comfort; not refering to air-conditioning (I retired before units were a/c'd on the CNW), but to the seating arrangement. The heater in front of the engineer made a perfet elevated foot-rest, making the long waits on sidings much more comfy...real ez to nap on those! And on the conductors side, the dual seats made a nice bed.

I was on a few desk-top consoled units before I left, and they were ok comfort-wise while operating, but when waiting and reclining on a siding...yuck!

Regarding the loading issue, it was not really a problem on the Ge's, one just had to adjust their operating accordingly. Slow loading was great, cause it was nearly impossible to break-in-two due to throttle advancement. However, if one ever has to chase down a runaway freight car, hopefully you'll be on an EMD.

[Anonymous]

Does anyone know whether the new GE and EMD locomotives are produced in the US or whether they use components that are built overseas? I was wondering how the production costs of the GE and EMD models compare. Any help would be appreciated! -

[Anonymous]

Production of the GE's (at least those for Canada) is partially done in Canada, that is aabout 40% of the subaseembalies have to be made in Canada, according to Canadian law, though whether that law is in effect still, I dont know.
That was the main reason why GE's never were in Canada from the 70 tonners till the Dash 8-40-CM that CN got.

[Anonymous]

I've heard that EMD units are used most out west, and GE units are used more around here (east). I prefer 2 stroke EMD's over anything else, especially if they have blowers, you get that trademark EMD sound [:D]

[Anonymous]

Gentlemen.
all the locomotives are a master pice of the man , in Mexico in the 50s-60s-70s EMD-GM are a number one in the ex- N de M in all terrain with small and medium horsepower ( G15 = 1350HP, F2, F7, and F9 . GP18, GP35,GP40 ).

[oltmannd]

They're not better, just cheaper. And, when you barely generate enough ca***o cover your capital expenses, any capital $$ you can save is a wonderful thing. Performance (by the TE and HP numbers) and fuel economy are almost identical. Differences in maint. cost occurs years after purchase, so discounting back to "todays" dollars makes any difference there much smaller (and somewhat speculative). So, all you're left with is initial cost and GEs are cheaper. It's that simple.

[wabash1]

it comes down to prefrance I prefer a emd. but some people dont let things go. the sd40 has not been made for years they are still around but there are new engines on the block now. and the new ones are just as good as the sd 40 was. and in most cases better. but the old ge engines are gone. and none to soon.

[Anonymous]

Bobbashina, I vote Thomas the Tank engine!!! I mean, shoot.. that thing has facial expressions!

I bet thats a 20 grand add on!

was Thomas the tank engine GE, or EMD?

hmmmmm bobbashina.. time to pop the tape back into the VCR and answer that question!

[Anonymous]

I have to agree with the general consensus that EMD is better. As a hoghead I hate GE's, they don't load when you want 'em to, they ride rough banging side to side, they vibrate everything in the cab, their wheel slip control systems sucks (especially if the wheels are unevenly worn),and they don't have any finess for slow speed things like making a joint. I will give 'em credit for good dynamic brakes, and on a long drag uphill with a heavy train they pull pretty good. EMD is definately the racehorse, GE's just don't seem to have any "legs" once you get over about 50mph. Give me 4 SD70M's on a long stack train and I'll outrun the same train with 4 Dash9 4400's even with the extra hp the GE's have (well, at least as long as the dispatcher lets us run). And as stated earlier in this forum, one of the reasons GE outsells EMD is cost/financing, another is production capability. I know that several years ago there was a railroad that wanted to by EMD, but needed the power yesterday, EMD couldn't build 'em in the time frame they wanted so they bought GE. Later they went back to EMD for the next order. It's interesting too, that both the big western roads have large amounts of EMD's (ie BNSF's SD70mac's, UP's 70m's, 90/43macs) where the eastern roads have a lot more GE stuff (at least the newer stuff). I would assume that with the longer line hauls of the western roads, that this would show some reliability concerns for the GE's where in the east with it's shorter hauls it's a cost thing. I know that on the UP, the new fleet of 70m's is running at almost 98% availibility, I don't think any GE fleet could touch that. And like what was said earlier, EMD's from the 60's are still running around every day, U-boats from that time are all but extinct, even some of the -7 series are getting pretty rare, and they are almost never rebuilt or given "life cycle extensions", where EMD's almost universally are. This has to point towards a better product over the course of it's life even if the initial cost is a little higher.
One other minor point about GE's, especially the older ones, nothing is the same on these things, you can get 2 units in the same series and on one the governor is on the conductor's side, the other it's on the engineer's side. These things must be a real pain to really work on because everything is just slapped on where ever someone felt like putting it that day at the plant. In summary, give me an EMD or give me the day off!!

[zardoz]

dbrady-
Maybe you could submit that phrase to EMD for sales promotions. They could show you at the controls of a locomotive with the phrase overlaid on the photo. Good PR.

"Give me an EMD or give me the day off". Cool!

[Anonymous]

just to add something here, I am enjoying reading all these posts, I am still on the 3rd page, and will continue to read through them all, This is good stuff. I must add thought, with the first few pages down, it is just plain silly-ness:

1. EMDs load better. Well rocket scientists from around the globe will be astonished to find that a mixed oil/fuel 2-stroke engine can reach max rps way faster than say, oh I don't know, a turbocharged 4-stroke. This is a concept that nobody takes into account. GEs don't load as fast (2-4seconds later, which is NOTHING) because if you knew anything at all about a turbine it takes power to make power, and the turbo spooling up is the delay, and EMD 2-cycle have absolutly nothing holding them back from lightning fast full throttle, because the turbo is in a sense feeding itself off the oil/fuel mixture. Simple engine machanics.

2. This garbage about GE should have stuck to making toasters. If you were comparing GE to say some German engineering company, I would agree, let the people who know do the job, not GE, stay to making toasters. But we are comparing them to General Motors, a company which makes auto of all sorts, and to think for a minute that these autos are better than any other autos out there would be crazy. I really don't think it matters if GE makes appliances, or if the make jet engines, GM makes heaps of metal on wheels that have absolutly nothing precise, nothing. I am sure all of you GM gurus out there are gonna let me know about the way you feel, but I won't even waste my time reading. I have a 1996 S-10, and let me tell you about how brilliant the engineers were that made the heap of scrap. Sure, now they make escalade and Hummers and the like, well it's not hard to copy..................................

3. Reliability and past performance. Some locos undergo the most harsh conditions on this planet, and some of you operating them have no idea where or what they have been put through, so when a couple break down, it's all of a sudden the manufacturer of the loco at fault, when it is almost every-time the RRs lack of attention and maintainence. As for the ancient SD40-2s, they are great machines, but thier time is gonna come. It is true they are reliable, I witness this all the time watching them pull and push HUGE trains. They have been overhauled, refurbished, and maintained to do so. If you took any locomotive that parts were as numerous and inexpensive as for the SD-40-2s, you could make them just as reliable.

Many more opinions to come as I read through this quality forum. Thanks for all of your input everyone.

[Anonymous]

The reason the EMD turbo responds faster is because it is gear driven at low engine rpms. When the exhaust gas pressure builds the gear drive disengages. At least that is how it was until EMDs new 4 cycle H Block engine that is in the SD 90s. In the SD 90s there are two plain old gas driven turbos.

[Anonymous]

Well Silvio, you just gave your self away. Oil Fuel Mixture??????What????? When I take power to the pit, I have never seen them dump in a can of "weed eater 2 cycle blend," in the fuel tank. The EMD 2 cycle diesel operates on the same principle as a detroit diesel. Air is forced into the air box, as the piston reaches BDC, ports in the cylinder are exposed and the air enters the cylinder through them, as the piston heads toward TDC the ports are closed by the piston skirt, fuel is injected and compressed until it ignites, the piston is forced down by this action, as the piston reaches BDC again the ports are exposed and the exhaust valves open. The exhaust gasses are forced out of the cylinder through the ex. valves by the fresh air charge. This whole cycle happens once every revolution of the crankshaft. The air is pressurized in one of two ways. Roots type gear driven blower, or a gear driven/gas driven turbo. The turbo is gear driven until enough exhaust gas volume is produced to drive the turbo, then clutches that drive the turbo are overrun and the exhaust gasses take over. The lube oil is still contained in the cranckcase of the EMD. And GE should have stuck to making toasters! Period.
Ken

[Anonymous]

I am sure that you know what your talkin about Ken. Where I get hazed is when you talk about GE and the toasters. I am assuming you have absolutly no idea what GE makes, has made for thier entire existance, and will continue to make..................................................................... If you did'nt know it's history.

About the 2 cycle engines, your saying there is no oil injected like a 2 stroke I'm thinking of, No not little weed eaters, mostly high-speed sleds. Thanks for the info and feedback.

[wabash1]

Sorry silvo but ken is right there is no oil injected into the 2 stroke engine ( of the diesel make) the diesel fuel is its own lube. the faster throttle response means it revs faster to turn the generator ( altinator in later versions) means you get moving faster. rocket science NO. next reliability emd is a more reliable engine always has been.

then you come down on gm and the s-10 p/u. The little toy was and is a great truck for what it is meant to be used for. its no differant than the ford ranger .

then you say we have no idea what the engines have been thru or where they have been. another wrong staement. the inspection reports left on the engines tells us exactly where they have been. but lets go one further. when you have a few hundread go down at the same time with the same problem it is not hard to figure the manufacture is at fault. If GE engines are so great why is the old engines not being rebuilt. all old EMD engines are rebuilt as they are worth the money I have yet to see a GE engine that is not rusted from brand new. start rattling after a few months of service wobble going down the rails. EMD engines are like the energizer bunny they keep going and going. the ride the rails smooth and you can get in with out braking down. but to say that GE should stick to making toasters is wrong. maybe light bulbs is the best thing to say. i have owned the television they made and wont do that ever again. 3 months is the longest they ever lasted.

I own nothing that has ge on it. and hope i never will. and reading back one last time the delay on a GE is more than 2-4 sec. its more toword 10sec. I start very early going from idle to #4 throttle just to get the thing to load. and still lose 10 or more mph just to get over a mole hill. on a emd they load and maintain your speed. and this is very helpful when trying to get over the road.

[Anonymous]

I was wondering about that delay myself, it seemed who would care about 2-4 seconds ? ? ? Anyway, I am no speaking on behalf of GE or GM here, but just my own opinions. I am sure you will be seeing the new Dash 9s and AC units being rebulit, and if not there is certainly a reason for it, most likely because they have paid for themselves over and over and it is thier time to hit the scrap yard, or in most cases of GE sales the RRs can trade them in and purchase brand new locomotvie power. Either way with the rebuilt SDs and such, they are relatively cheap to rebuild, and without much spending a worn out SD (i.e. SD40-2) can be overhauled for service. GEs are more complex, the RRs must consider trading them in or even scraping them for salvage to purchase new ones. This is true for GMs as well. I am aware that GE makes numerous replacement parts for EMDs, and am sure the RRs utilize these parts. Diesel engines I am ignorant of, I know the basics and this forum is very enlightining. GE and GM are no longer in battle, they both make good locomotives that get the job done. I talk to some people who work for NS, they run Dash 9s and SD40-2 around here alot, and I have been told that sitting in a SD40-2 while pushing tonnage over this mountain grade is the worst possible job ever. I can understand, they are OLD. they may have always been reliable and for that matter still are, but GEs have also been reliable, just as much as EMDs, so when 100 break down at a time, it is just Locomotive nature, they are not as simple as a truck, they are under extreme conditions, and unless you build them from the ground up, you have no idea.

Railroads buy more GEs now and have for some time, wonder why ? ? ?

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Silvio510

I was wondering about that delay myself, it seemed who would care about 2-4 seconds ? ? ? Anyway, I am no speaking on behalf of GE or GM here, but just my own opinions. I am sure you will be seeing the new Dash 9s and AC units being rebulit, and if not there is certainly a reason for it, most likely because they have paid for themselves over and over and it is thier time to hit the scrap yard, or in most cases of GE sales the RRs can trade them in and purchase brand new locomotvie power. Either way with the rebuilt SDs and such, they are relatively cheap to rebuild, and without much spending a worn out SD (i.e. SD40-2) can be overhauled for service. GEs are more complex, the RRs must consider trading them in or even scraping them for salvage to purchase new ones. This is true for GMs as well. I am aware that GE makes numerous replacement parts for EMDs, and am sure the RRs utilize these parts. Diesel engines I am ignorant of, I know the basics and this forum is very enlightining. GE and GM are no longer in battle, they both make good locomotives that get the job done. I talk to some people who work for NS, they run Dash 9s and SD40-2 around here alot, and I have been told that sitting in a SD40-2 while pushing tonnage over this mountain grade is the worst possible job ever. I can understand, they are OLD. they may have always been reliable and for that matter still are, but GEs have also been reliable, just as much as EMDs, so when 100 break down at a time, it is just Locomotive nature, they are not as simple as a truck, they are under extreme conditions, and unless you build them from the ground up, you have no idea.

Railroads buy more GEs now and have for some time, wonder why ? ? ?

Time from idle to full load for an EMD = 25 seconds
Time from idle to full load for a GE = 80 seconds (and most of that in the last 20 seconds)

There was some hope that the lower volume of the two-pipe cast exhaust manifold that was introduced in the late 90s would reduce time to full load for GE, but I don't know how that worked out.

RR buy more GEs than EMDs because they are cheaper and have lower lifecycle cost. Period. GE's manufacturing costs are lower than EMDs. This plus a little bit of fuel eff. difference tip the balance nearly all the time.

[dharmon]

So what you are saying,..... if I read this correctly, is if I am a shortline buying used power I would look to buy an EMD, because they tradionally last longer and parts to rebuild them are readily available, affordable and I can standardize my maintenance. If I am a Class 1 buying a 100 new units at a time, I'd look to GE becasue of lower purchase price, attractive financing and life cycle cost........based on $$ alone not the preferences of the operators (not trying to pick I fight...I don't run them, never have, probably never will, can't tell you if they respond or ride well).

Or do I buy some EMDs with the expectation that I will rebuild them and keep them forever and lease GEs?

[wabash1]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

So what you are saying,..... if I read this correctly, is if I am a shortline buying used power I would look to buy an EMD, because they tradionally last longer and parts to rebuild them are readily available, affordable and I can standardize my maintenance. If I am a Class 1 buying a 100 new units at a time, I'd look to GE becasue of lower purchase price, attractive financing and life cycle cost........based on $$ alone not the preferences of the operators (not trying to pick I fight...I don't run them, never have, probably never will, can't tell you if they respond or ride well).

Or do I buy some EMDs with the expectation that I will rebuild them and keep them forever and lease GEs?

Yes you are right. When the ns needed power and fast GE had power sitting there and ready at the cost of 2 GE engines for 1 EMD there was no reason not to buy them. then in talking with mechanical forces on the railroad, the bean counters was displeased in the performance and reliability of the GE units. The units was purchused and are still being delivered. ( or have been delivered) and the ns are back to buying EMD units. a short line will buy EMD units because of reliability . the ns trashed all of the c30 and c36-7 both some of the biggest junk i ever was on. From a running point they wouldnt do anything but smoke and belch fire. trying to get in the doors was fun to. A super model would have trouble getting through the door much less us over weight railroaders.

I wont bash GE totally I do like the 4axel ge units they wont load fast ( where have i heard that before) but if switching heavy loads they will pull the freight seems like it does it easier than a EMD but I will still use a EMD before a GE.