Why are GE locomotives better than EMD?

[Anonymous]

Hi all! I'm a new railfan and was wondering why so many trains are pulled by GE locomotives? In reading the posts, there definitely is an EMD vs. GE thing going on. Now I don't know a lot about locomotives, but it seems to me that the railroads are buying a lot more GE than EMD. I live in the East. I have had a chance to talk to some employees -CSX and NS, and they said GE is a better locomotive, pulls more train, is more fuel efficient, and breaks down less than the newer EMDs. It must be true because CSX and NS seem to only be buying GE, but I read this site and everybody here seems to hate GE. What gives?

[Anonymous]

Well if you were following the thread on Is EMD Doomed? you'd be reading some pretty nasty things about the GEs!

But the consensus that can be gleaned is that the GE units were much cheaper and came with attractive financing and leasing options. Heck, CP's last order, they got 50 units for FREE!

Best, Alexander

[Anonymous]

All Locomotives are good lets enjoy RR ing and be happy.Trains are good they are best liked out of all Transportation Modes.They put North America on the map.ENJOY.

[Anonymous]

Well I dunno about all locomotives being good- ie those in yellow paint, lol. ;-)

But I agree that railroads do seem to have the best following of all modes, except perhaps for cars, which have a major love/hate relationship with America. But that's another topic and one that is, perhaps, too charged for this forum to bear.

[Anonymous]

Out here in the "wilds" of Minnesota, I would say that GE's outnumber EMD's but only by a small percentage. Of course all I see is CP and BNSF with an occassional UP unit thrown in.

[Anonymous]

Hello new railfan.Welcome.I don't think it a matter of hating GE.Its just personal preference.Why does one pick Ford over Chevy,and the next Chevy over Ford? RR's who operate locomotives will generally prefer EMD over GE because EMD will respond instantly to throttle movements either up or down while GE's are very sluggish and take sometimes up 2-4 seconds to respond.Doesn't sound like much time but believe me it seems like a eternity while operating a locomotive and trying to control slack in a train.

[Anonymous]

Well, I certainly like to see a train, no matter what kind of locomotive is pulling it. But with today's economy "circling the bowl", I am glad to see an American-built loco.(GE), gaining favor with the railroads. As to which one is actually superior to the other I suppose it's "six-to-one,
and half-a-dozen to the other".

[Anonymous]

I think on BNSF's roster of NEW purchases, GE outnumbers EMD 2 to 1 at least. However, BNSF has lots of old reliable EMD products, esp. SD40-2s, which are amongst the most beloved engines still rolling.....

[wabash1]

the ns did buy some new emd units while it was also buying the new ge units. a sd 70 and a dash 9 will pull the same amount of tonnage the differance is the emd will do it quicker. breakdowns the emd is more reliable. the ns is taking the gp38 the 2700-2800 built in 1969 and 1970 painting them adding air-conditioning and renumbering them 5500 series. and they are in service now. the old ge units b30-7 d8-32b are not being rebuilt all c36-7 all c30-7 are not in service. waiting to be scraped. but the emd units of the same time period are still in service.

[Anonymous]

Can't speak about the new GE units, but my experience concerning acceleration has been the opposite. Back in the early 1980's I attended college in Pittsburgh. I had to take a few classes at Penn State McKeesport campus, so I took the commuter rail from downtown out to McKeesport. The trains had their own HEP, so they were push/pulled by Chessie freight units. Usually GP40-2s got the assignment, but they also used GE B30s. Now the Geeps were no slouch in acceleration, but the B30s were much quicker in getting the train up to speed. Even the engineers would comment on the GEs acceleration, saying how easy it was to make up time if they got behind schedule. I got friendly with some of the engineers and often rode in the cab. The B30s would pull much higher amps then the Geeps. Like I said, I don't know about the newer units, but that is my 2 cents worth.

[favuprailroadfan]

Hello, Welcome to the world of trains. You live in the East which is pretty much dominated by GE. But if you live in the west or midwest like I do. You would see that there are alot more EMD's than GE's. I have heard nothing but bad things about the GE's. Granted I am a EMD man, but that is the only thing I have ever been around. EMD's may load quicker and get them up to speed faster,but the one thing I have to give GE's is that they are the pullers of the two. I have never seen a EMD broke down on the road because of mechanical failure. I have seen a GE blow a turbo( which is one of the funniest things I have ever saw) at 6 MPH! Now that is pretty bad, it was in throttle up in Run 2. It was blowing black smoke like you wouldn't believe. All I can say is that before you start making fun of EMD's. Find a railroad that goes with EMD's and let them show for themselves what they can do. And again Welcome to the world of railroading.

Laters, Dru

[Anonymous]

There are pros and cons to both EMD and GE locomotives, both new and old. Older GE's suffered from reliability problems, and as such, most U-boats and a lot of 7-series GE's have already been or are being retired. Older EMDs last a very long time and have a huge availability of parts, so many railroads continue running their elderly geeps forty years after their delivery. However, modern locomotives have changed a lot since then, and the tables have certainly turned.

GE's are now considered by many to be the better product, and railroads such as BNSF and CSX have ordered thousands in recent years. However, UP's most recent order was for 1000 EMD SD70M's, so they certainly consider them a good product. There are several reasons why GE has done better in recent years.

1)They are able to deliver faster, and railroads with power crunches wanted locomotives immediately.
2)They do have better financing option and more sales "perks."
3)They have vastly improved reliability and offer more tractive effort than comparable EMD products.

As a railfan, I prefer the appearance of EMDs over GEs, but having taken a couple of cab rides and having talked with crew members, I would say that if I were a railroader, I'd prefer GEs. I have been on several BNSF locomotives, both EMD and GE, and have learned that the newer EMDs suffer from more reliability problems than the GEs. (FYI, the venerable SD40-2 continues to be more reliable than nearly everything else) Crews prefer the new C44-9W's because they ride better, have more ergonomic cabs, and are more powerful overall. However, EMDs do still load faster, and GEs are still prone to turbo fires, so it's really all just a matter of preference.

[Anonymous]

One thing that has not been pointed out is that the GE traction motor is better, and will take much more abuse than the EMD. Both are good locomotives, and I am happy to run which ever there is availiable. I love a good old ALCO!!
Also I like the candance of the four stroke prime mover of the GE's over the 2 stroke of the EMD's. So, take your pick, and you probablly pick a good locomotive, but I Like the GE's better.

Marv

[favuprailroadfan]

Did anybody happen to mention why GE's has so many perks and everything else. Because they have so much trouble with them that they are wanting to let you have them at a cheaper price. Pay the more money for EMD and you won't have as many problems.

Laters, Dru

[Anonymous]

GE can offer so many "perks" because the company is in so many businesses that can benefit railroads. GE can offer such things as:

Freight Cars - GE is one of the large lessors.

Capital loans for Buildings, Track, and anything else they might need.

Lease of Buildings, vehicles, temporary office space and other capital items.

Equipment and Building automation - GE has excellent controls.

Insurance

And there are others. EMD cannot offer these things. GE can offer large packages covering several of these items along with the locomotives. Buying these packages saves the railroad a lot of money.

[Anonymous]

CSX AC4400CWs do well on the hill out of Bostic NC on coal trains.They do sometimes need a push.When they do it is a EMD.

[favuprailroadfan]

OK, Does GE put as much quality into a loco that EMD does. NO. Yes GE's are good for some things. The AC's, are ok, good for coal and other bulk traffic. But they hardly ever get to stretch their legs on intermodel. GE's DC's are better. Good for intermodel. I will agree GE makes an ok loco, but EMD is alot better. Yes UP has ordered something like 900 AC's from GE's. But they are getting 1000(I heard they were getting more), so if EMD is such a problem then why is UP ordering more? Maybe EMD doesn't have anything on the board right now, but I can guarentee you that they will bounce back just like they have always done before.

Laters, Dru

[Anonymous]

Gentlemen,
I don't really care which product is more relialbe,who has a better electrical system,or better traction motors,when it comes to operating a locomotive with a trailing train,nothing and I repeat nothing compares to a EMD.GE's are slow loading,unreponsive,lumbering,rattle buckets that should be regulated to slow drags.I much prefer a EMD racehorse on fast frieght than a GE plow nag anyday.
Keith

[Anonymous]

Unfortunatly your probably right as that is what we've got now.But hopefully the RR's will see the folly of their thinking as they realize after 10-15yrs hard use the GE's just won't last.Haven't seen any U30B's or U-33C's around BN property lately .Still see lots and lots of SD40-2's in yard and through frieght sevice.Both types bought at the same time.Why is that?

[Anonymous]

O.K., now before anybody gets "bent outta shape", I just want to say that I am NOT an expert, and I'm not sure how many similarities there are between ALCO, and GE, (they did share a lot of traits, even were partners at one time), But, if you have ever witnessed an Alco RS-3 switching cars alongside an EMD Geep, the Alco loads up much faster. I have been an "unofficial" engineer on both Alco S-4's, and EMD SW-1200's. I can report the same for those two also. I understand that GE has, in the interest of emmissions, programmed the fuel flow in such a way as to reduce the amount of smoke that was so common among earlier "U-boats". That is something that is inherent with the 4-cycle diesel. It's called "Turbo-Lag". (More fuel than air, during rapid power increase). Anyone who has seen a tractor-pull, will compare this with the multi-turbo John-Deeres that send a column of black smoke a hundred feet in the air.
As for who actually makes the better locomotive, you would have to talk to everybody from engineers, to shop foremen, to cost accountants, to dispatchers, etc,etc, etc.

[wabash1]

sorry dru you are right. on the ns they do have and keep emd on the hotshot trains in this area. but i must say i had a great set of dash 9 the other day on my train it ran great.the first time i never needed a push with ge units. but i only had 4 cars on the local .

[Anonymous]

Just wondering...does GE make the lightbulbs for their locomotives? And what about the lightbulbs for EMD?

[Anonymous]

First,if you had to operate a C40-9W like I do most of the time in our frieght pool,you wouldn't call it a quality product.Things like the interior trim falling apart and a cab that vibrates so bad at times you think your in a blender do not constitute a quality product.Along with the fact that a great many of these locomotives don't put out their full load potential.
Second,I won't disagree with what you said about the SD's.And your right its time to join the 21st century but its to bad all we'll be operating is GE's new products. Like we say down at the RR, GE should have stuck to making toasters.
Keith

[Anonymous]

Nope!! Sylvania, if thats how you spell it.

[Anonymous]

COOL! Good answer.

[Anonymous]

Wabash,
Funny,lol. Last week had to get help from a mty coal train account our Dash-8 B-30-7 conked out on the hill.Electrical problems that couldn't be fixed.If the computer doesn't let you reset the faults you ain't gonna fix them!The engine we got was a SD70Mac. Keith

[Anonymous]

Let's try a BIG PICTURE look at EMD vs GE.
In the 80's every major GM division [5 auto, 2 truck, Detroit Deisel, EMD, etc.] was in trouble the same way. They use to dominate their market with products that were the best enginered, most reliable, and cheapest to produce. By the late 70's early 80's they had hung on to good designs for too long. These old designs could not keep up with new demands/standards, or the toolig was wearing out, or the updating work was inferior, or someone had come out with a better product[think Honda/Toyota]. When new designs were finally brought out they were troubled, often being worse than what they were to replace [ Chevy Beretta, the 50 line]. Worse was a corporate attitude that there was no proublem,"we know what to do, we just need to do it better", or " we have a preceived qaulity problem" { better call that last one a paraphrase rather than a quote].
Eventually the board of directors woke up and did their job, fireing the existing top corporate management and bringing in a much more capable team. This was a hugh story at the time and brought out a lot of business humor about CEO's all across America suddenly in fear of their boards waking up. GM sreanlined, downsized, reengineered and is now making good to great product. I thought th 70 line could be included in this and would hate to see EMD go just because a fellow bean counter desided the market was to small to for the capital needed to make a good loco great again. Maybe if they branded a 70mac as the next Cadilac SUV the numbers could work.

[Anonymous]

Here we go with the insults again! Is that all you know how to do when one disagrees with you? I'm entitled to my opinions on RR locomotive operations and how they perform and until you sit your butt in the engineers seat your opions mean nothing to me!

[Anonymous]

You must work for GE. Or own their stock.

[Anonymous]

You're behind the times. GM's vehicles shot way up in build quality last year , right behind Toyota & Honda. There are still a lot of beater cavaliers from the bad old 80's still running with 140k-200k on the clock so long life shouldn't be a big problem. GM still does a lot of inovating, it just may not of the kind you notice. Kind of like thinking something can't be sophisticated because it's simple.
As for EMD it still has valuble name recognition and goodwill, much like Harley in the early 80's, and could do well in a LBO by the right management group. There is a new business model for a lean organization. You do the engineering, marketing, support, and final assembly. The assembly of most components is subcontracted out. Costs are lower and there is much more flexability than trying to build everything yourself. Samual Adams beer is just one example of this.If I had lived my life differently I might try to do the deal myself.