I found this youtube site that has a lot of training videos, among other promotional films, on it.
Railroaded Films - YouTube
This one in particular deals with signals of all types, hand and other types, too.
Railroad Training Video "Signals and Their Use" Union Pacific - YouTube
It should be noted that the videos may contain rules that may have changed since the videos were first made.
Jeff
BaltACDI can only imagine radio frequency assignments around Chicago.
There are a few...
https://www.radioreference.com/db/aid/4563
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
In our Council Bluffs yard complex, we have multiple channels that are in use.
There's the main road channel, 042-042. There is a catch-all yard channel 038-038, that main line trains passing through yard limits (about 2-1/2 miles long) must change to. This channel is usually used by trains working in the yard and to get instructions from the yard master. Road trains just passing through need to inquire about employee initiated track breach protection that might be in effect.
Car men are on 052-052, the diesel ramp is on 032-032. The YOS (yard office supervisor, the yard van dispatcher) is on 044-044.
The yard job at the North (old CNW) yard, when there is one working, is 062-062. At the South (original UP) yards, the West lead job is on 016-016, the South lead is on 096-096. Local industrial jobs there also have there own channel, which I don't know because I don't need to talk to them.
tree68 BaltACD In the Baltimore area, Per RadioReference, CSX has 29 frequencies assigned in Maryland. NS has nine, Amtrak has 15. ...
BaltACD In the Baltimore area,
Per RadioReference, CSX has 29 frequencies assigned in Maryland. NS has nine, Amtrak has 15.
...
I can only imagine radio frequency assignments around Chicago.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACDIn the Baltimore area,
Five frequencies are assigned to tourist railroads, and 12 to shortlines (Canton, Maryland Midland, Maryland & Delaware, Tradepoint).
There is some overlap. WM Scenic is listed under both tourist and shortline, and 160.800 is assigned to Amtrak, NS, and CSX.
https://www.radioreference.com/db/aid/2159
VHF will occasionally skip, but not as bad as HF. But propagation can still be an issue, sometimes resulting in signals fading off or carrying further than usual.
At least there is a cohesive band plan, and someone to manage it.
tree68 Perry Babin There was a post that stated that hand signal might sometimes be preferred because they wouldn't cause a problem with another close crew (on the radio). Are all crews locked to one frequency or do they have a range of frequencies that they can use (a bit like the different channels on a CB radio)? We have a road frequency and a yard frequency, and switch at designated points (after a "job briefing"). Oftimes, especially when a train is headed out of the yard, they'll switch over to the road frequency so as not to bother the yard operations. There are some 200 AAR "channels," half are the legacy channels currently most in use, the other half are the result of narrowbanding, with the new channels placed between the legacy channels. Each railroad is assigned however many frequencies/channels they need/want. The frequencies are often referred to by their AAR designators. F'rinstance, the frequency once used by Conrail over most of their system, 160.800 MHz, is AAR channel 46. Thus you'll sometimes see a channel referred to as "4646," which means both transmit and receive are on channel 46 - 160.800 MHz. Some locales may use a repeater (we do). The repeater extends the range of locomotives and handhelds, and often includes a phone patch the crews can use to contact the dispatcher (or order pizza, which no doubt happens). In that case, you'll see something like "1825", which indicates that the system uses one frequency for the repeater input, and another for the output (very often the road channel). Locomotive radios are generally frequency agile - they can go to any AAR channel with just a few keystrokes. Handhelds are limited to what they are capable. A good many are limited to 16 frequencies, which must be preprogrammed "in the shop."
Perry Babin There was a post that stated that hand signal might sometimes be preferred because they wouldn't cause a problem with another close crew (on the radio). Are all crews locked to one frequency or do they have a range of frequencies that they can use (a bit like the different channels on a CB radio)?
There was a post that stated that hand signal might sometimes be preferred because they wouldn't cause a problem with another close crew (on the radio). Are all crews locked to one frequency or do they have a range of frequencies that they can use (a bit like the different channels on a CB radio)?
We have a road frequency and a yard frequency, and switch at designated points (after a "job briefing"). Oftimes, especially when a train is headed out of the yard, they'll switch over to the road frequency so as not to bother the yard operations.
There are some 200 AAR "channels," half are the legacy channels currently most in use, the other half are the result of narrowbanding, with the new channels placed between the legacy channels. Each railroad is assigned however many frequencies/channels they need/want.
The frequencies are often referred to by their AAR designators. F'rinstance, the frequency once used by Conrail over most of their system, 160.800 MHz, is AAR channel 46. Thus you'll sometimes see a channel referred to as "4646," which means both transmit and receive are on channel 46 - 160.800 MHz.
Some locales may use a repeater (we do). The repeater extends the range of locomotives and handhelds, and often includes a phone patch the crews can use to contact the dispatcher (or order pizza, which no doubt happens). In that case, you'll see something like "1825", which indicates that the system uses one frequency for the repeater input, and another for the output (very often the road channel).
Locomotive radios are generally frequency agile - they can go to any AAR channel with just a few keystrokes. Handhelds are limited to what they are capable. A good many are limited to 16 frequencies, which must be preprogrammed "in the shop."
Remember - all the allowed radio frequencies are used by ALL the railroads. In Baltimore for example, you have CSX, NS, Amtrak,Canton Railroad and Tradepoint Atlantic (operating former Patapsco & Back River territory at Sparrows Point) all needing unique frequency assignments so as not to conflict with each other. On top of that, radio frequencies area subject to 'skip' that are caused by exacting and uncontrollable atmospheric conditions, wherein transmissions originating hundreds of miles from an area CAN come in loud and strong.
In the Baltimore area, CSX has three Dispatching Desks that require THEIR OWN sets of radio channels - BC Desk handles the Capital, Metropolitan and Old Main Line subdivisions radiating West from the City. BD Desk handles the RF&P Subdivision from Washington DC on South. BE Desk handles the Baltimore Terminal and Philadelphia Subdivisions. I have no idea of what level of uniqueness NS and Amtrak require of their radio needs in and around Baltimore. Feature two or three channels will cover the Canton Railroad and Tradepoint Atlantic's individual needs.
Good place to find the Frequencies that they are using.
https://www.radioreference.com/db/browse/
Perry BabinThere was a post that stated that hand signal might sometimes be preferred because they wouldn't cause a problem with another close crew (on the radio). Are all crews locked to one frequency or do they have a range of frequencies that they can use (a bit like the different channels on a CB radio)?
In 'most' cases, there is a Road radio channel, there is a Dispatchers radio channel, there is a MofW radio channel and in the vicinity of 'signifcant' yards there is a Yard radio channel.
The Road, Dispatcher and MofW channels will exist for the entirety of the subdivision. At one time, CSX in Baltimore utilized four Yard channels, Bayview Yard, Locust Point Yard, Curtis Bay Yard and Mt.Clare Yard. With Yardmaster consolitation that has been reduced to two - Bayviw and Curtis Bay. There is only one channel per yard and all working yard crews will be using it, therefore, if the yard has multiple yard crews working care has to be taken to prevent one crew responding to another crews transmissions.
On line of road, radio transmitters are located about every 10 to 15 miles along a subdivision. When a train or someone else 'tones in' the Train Dispatcher the transmitter nearest to individual doing the toning will flash on the Train Dispatchers communications screen; in some cases two transmitter locations will flash.
In ALL radio communications the parties involved have to properly identify who they are to prevent 'mistaken' communications from being acted upon.
In the 1960's & 70's it was not uncommon for crews to us personal CB radios for end to end communications on trains, even though the use of them was no specifically 'legal' in accordance with the rules.
I believe that they are all on the same frequency on a yard or road channel. Consequently, anybody on the radio has to identify who they are and who they are calling.
MP173 Two questions: 1. Does a conductor or other train crew member carry a lantern which is assigned on a semi permanent basis, or does one pickup a lantern when going on duty? 2. Same with the radio...assigned or picked up? Bonus question. Dispatcher or others will at times ask the trainman to call on their phones. Is there a special provision in rule book for such actions?Ed
Two questions:
1. Does a conductor or other train crew member carry a lantern which is assigned on a semi permanent basis, or does one pickup a lantern when going on duty?
2. Same with the radio...assigned or picked up?
Bonus question. Dispatcher or others will at times ask the trainman to call on their phones. Is there a special provision in rule book for such actions?Ed
Lanterns and radios are exclusive to the conductor. Radios are assigned, that is the serial number is recorded (or is supposed to be) when the radio is issued. Lanterns, because they are a lot cheaper, aren't. They issue one and replace it as needed. We have a yerly $300 voucher at a safety supply company where we can obtain various items; lanterns, headlamps and batteries are among the items.
Cell phones can be used at times as an alternate means of communication, with all restrictions being observed. I've only heard our dispatchers ask MOW or signal people in the field to call them on the phone. Usually in areas where there is high radio traffic or poor radio reception.
Once upon a time, portable radios were pooled. that was when they were first being issued and there weren't enough to go around. I have a set of teain orders from the CNW about 1975, There is an attached message that conductors on their return to Proviso were to return their portable to the yard office due to not enough to be permanently issued. I think at the time the conductors had an assigned portable and the one needing to be returned was a second one to be used by a brakeman.
At one time there was also an arbitrary payment made for having to carry a radio. That's been gone a long time.
Perry BabinDo all conductors have to carry a lantern at all times or just when it's expected to get dark?
Perry Babin If only when dark, what's the threshold where they must start carrying it?
When I worked the skateman job below the Connellsville, Pa. hump I carried a flashlight at night. I could put it in my pocket when not needed and since I worked alone following the yardmasters instructions issued over a speaker system, I did not need to signal anyone.
Some old heads used to tell the story about a trainmaster who could not understand why the night turn crews used so many more lantern batteries than the daylight and afternoon shifts.
NP Eddie The only trainmen that don't have to carry a lantern are Remote Control Operators.
The only trainmen that don't have to carry a lantern are Remote Control Operators.
Do all conductors have to carry a lantern at all times or just when it's expected to get dark?
If only when dark, what's the threshold where they must start carrying it?
I can't remember a single time when I've seen a conductor carrying a lantern during the day. There aren't many videos showing working at night.
I still have my Northern Pacific switchmans lantern that I had to purchase from the NP in April of 1966. If I needed a new battery, I had to show the yardmaster my old battery in order to receive a new one! It does get very dark in the yard as I had to write down car initials and numbers while checking the yards in Minneapolis. We also had two light bulbs in the lantern itself and two extra bulbs in the cap of the lantern.
Ed Burns
NP BN BNSF from Northtown.
When using radios - there are dead spots. Spots where a radio can't transmitt a understandable signal or where a understandable signal can't be recieved. The dead spots may be for both transmission and reception or it may be for one or the other. Dead spots do become known to the routine users in particular areas.
I am a dinosaur and listen to terrestial radio in my vehicle. I experience dead spots that are even close to the transmitter location. In other occasions on a different channel, I get one station and move 25 feet and get another station (one station is sports talk, the other is country music). Both stations share the same broadcast frequency.
The only trainmen that don't have to carry a lantern are Remote Control Operators. They are issued head lamps, like the ones sportsmen use. Some conductors will wear a head lamp to read their paperwork but carry the lantern for signaling.
Engineers get a flashlight. I carry one, not the railroad issued one, and wear a headlamp when needed at night.
The current trainmen's lantern being used is smaller than the one previously mentioned and uses C or D cell batteries. It also has a magnet to allow it to be stuck on the car when needing both hands for a task, like replacing an air hose.
I have a reverser that has a flashlight built in. It comes in handy when I need a flashlight or a reverser.
Cotton Belt MP104 1. jeff: what three basic signals are taught/legal rather than the many other homebrew/"outlaw" hand signals? 2. PJS1: besides break in radio signal....I have observed a pick-up...conductor to engineer signals/talks carlengths till coupling.....if the engineer does not hear more information at the halfway point of the last signal....he should stop and request a signal for safety in case something has gone wrong. 3. BTW: horn/engineer signals ???? 2/1/1 for crossing 2 for forward 3 backward multiple blasts for something on track. would one extra long blast be, call for a signal? endmrw0814231805
1. jeff: what three basic signals are taught/legal rather than the many other homebrew/"outlaw" hand signals?
2. PJS1: besides break in radio signal....I have observed a pick-up...conductor to engineer signals/talks carlengths till coupling.....if the engineer does not hear more information at the halfway point of the last signal....he should stop and request a signal for safety in case something has gone wrong.
3. BTW: horn/engineer signals ???? 2/1/1 for crossing 2 for forward 3 backward multiple blasts for something on track. would one extra long blast be, call for a signal? endmrw0814231805
Go forward, go backward, and stop. In actual practice, forward and backwards are lantern signals used at night and dependent on engine direction when switching in the yard.
In daylight hours, the hand signals we use are come to me and go away from me. Those are not dependent on engine direction.
When using radio for shoving moves, the engr must have the movement stopped within half the distance of the last radio instructions received, unless further instructions are given.
And some give good car counts and some don't. At times, I'll ask how we are doing when we are getting close to the time I need to be stopping. Sometimes just slowing down gets the condr's attention.
If you can't hear the conductor, you stop. I've done a few times. I couldn't hear the portable radio. Sometimes it's interference from power lines, just a bad radio or antenna, or train length. For a time my home terminal had a repeater channel to help comm when the engine and portable were a couple miles apart.
Lately they've issued some better and longer antennas for the portables. That has helped immensely.
Perry BabinDo you have a model # for your lantern?
Star 2012
Do you have a model # for your lantern? Don't go out of your way to get it if you don't know it.
An LED (depending on how hard it's driven) will go a long time on a 6v battery. It should be 4 D-cells internally. I ran a 2-D LED maglite continuously and it lasted about 8 hours.
I forgot about "slow down," slack, and stretch, all of which we do use from time to time.
I now use an LED lantern, which should stretch my available use substantially.
I would imagine that newer battery technologies will come into use - but you can't beat what's served faithfully for a lot of years.
I'll have to look into more hand signals. Are many/any of these still used?
https://railroadsignals.us/other/hand/index.htm
If the batteries they use are best for railroads, I can understand that. LiIon batteries in an LED flashlight will last a week with intermittent use. I go 6 months between charges on the light I carry but I only use it a few times a week. Add to that the flashlights have multiple power levels to reduce battery usage even farther. I'm not trying to change what's being used. It's just information for those with no experience with newer systems.
Perry BabinI was surprised to see that most of the lanterns still used alkaline batteries. Very few had options for rechargeables.
Changing out the battery is a fast and simple job. Lantern batteries are generally available (I keep a spare when I can). I mentioned the radio using lantern batteries earlier. I'd imagine there are cases of such batteries in key locations.
And, there's not really anywhere to charge a lantern on a train. Unless a locomotive has an inverter (some do - for things like fridges and microwaves), there's no place to charge them anyhow.
Perry BabinBy 'hand signals', from what I've found, it means the movement (vertical, horizontal, in a wide or smaller circle). I didn't have a clue that was 'hand' signals.
Among the hand signals I've encountered are a hand to the waist (half a car), arm pumps (number of cars), hands of a clock (last 15 feet to a hitch), fingers held up (number of cars), three fingers held up (request three step), point between the cars (going in, as to hook up the brake hoses), arm straight up (apply brakes), arm waved above head (release brakes).
One signal that's mentioned in the rules is "any object, waved violently back and forth, is an indication to stop." Better known as a "wash out."
Is there anyone here who has worked at night to say how often they carried a railroad lantern vs just a good flashlight to see where you were going because you had a radio for communication?
Perry BabinLantern or any light they choose to carry? A flashlight that fits in the pocket is rechargeable and gives plenty of light to see may not be suitable as a signal device.
A flashlight that fits in the pocket is rechargeable and gives plenty of light to see may not be suitable as a signal device.
The Trainmans Lantern has been developed over many years. Its handle allows it to be carried in many ways that don't require ones hand(s) to be actively grasping it. Flashlights that require the person to actively hold it with one hand thus decrease the actions one can take with their hands.
Your lack of being around railroad operations is limiting your understanding of them.
Lantern or any light they choose to carry?
Perry BabinMy question about the camera was regarding the engineer being able to see what the conductor was seeing, not a camera without the conductor. I didn't know if that would be useful or completely unnecessary since the movement was so slow. By 'hand signals', from what I've found, it means the movement (vertical, horizontal, in a wide or smaller circle). I didn't have a clue that was 'hand' signals. I was surprised to see that most of the lanterns still used alkaline batteries. Very few had options for rechargeables. What percentage of conductors still carry a lantern?
By 'hand signals', from what I've found, it means the movement (vertical, horizontal, in a wide or smaller circle). I didn't have a clue that was 'hand' signals.
I was surprised to see that most of the lanterns still used alkaline batteries. Very few had options for rechargeables.
What percentage of conductors still carry a lantern?
In the dark every Conductor or Trainman is carrying a lantern - to be able to see! It is DARK out there. Even in yards that have lights - cars in the yards create shadows on things the need to be viewed clearly.
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