1. When (in general) did railroads switch from communication by lamp to 2-way radio?
2. Are lamps (nowadays) ever used as an emergency way to communicate if one of the radios fails?
3. Do conductors carry railroad issued lamps (nowadays) or are they left to carry whatever type of flashlight they choose (assuming they choose to carry a light)?
4. Is there ever a need to have more than the verbal communication between the conductor and the engineer? For example, would video of what the conductor is seeing be better than verbal only? Today, it would be simple to set up a phone to be an IP camera that the engineer could pull up on his phone.
The numbers are there so that any replies can just reference one of the numbers instead of going through the quoting process. Quoting is also OK.
4. From what I've read and heard, the use of personal cellphones is prohibited.
Communication by radio probably began in around the late 1950's to early 1960's. Many roads marked their locomotives and cabooses as "Radio Equipped".
Rather than referring to "lamps", it would be better to refer to "hand signals". Lamps are the tool used in low light/ night time to make hand signals visible. As for your questions:
2. Hand signals are very much in use nowadays, especially when light locomotive moves involved (at least on the RR I work at). They can be especially handy in situations where there are two crews working in the same area, to avoid one having crew's radio communications "step on" another crew.
3. There are lamps specifically designed for railroad use. Here is an example. They can be used as a flashlight, but more important for RR purposes, they are visible from the side.
4. As noted, use of personal cell phones are usually prohibited. In NORAC, though, there is verbiage in the rule involving shove moves that allow for the use of cameras to provide visibility in the direction of the shove. I don't know anyone using such technology, but it might be something that could be equipped on a shoving platform (aka caboose).
Perry BabinWhen (in general) did railroads switch from communication by lamp to 2-way radio?
There was an article around 1947 about a 28-pound trainphone for the guy on the ground to carry on his shoulder -- you're familiar with the PRR trainphone system? Some might say it's not strictly radio, but...
Were lunchbox-size radios the first in wide use, or were there bigger VHF radios to lug around, circa 1950?
The rule book still read that radio can supplant hand/lantern signals, not the other way around. Radio usage is so common, even at times when hand signals would be better, that even working railroaders forget that. (Some years ago a fairly new conductor got off the engine, walked across a road to line a switch to enter a siding. He returned to the engine. The switch had no normal position it could be left in the last positioned lined for. A company officer had been watching and came up on the engine. The CO wanted to write up the conductor for not taking his radio with him. The conductor was going to let this happen until the engineer intervened, reminding both that there was no rule requiring the conductor to take the radio with him everytime he was off the engine.
Cell phone use on a moving train in the controlling cab is prohibited by law. There are certain well defined exceptions, and those exceptions also require any use to be by someone other than the person at the controls.
Our rule book now only has 3 defined hand/lantern signals. It does allow other types of hand/lantern signals to be used as long as everyone on the crew understands the meaning of the "outlaw" signals. Those other hand signals can differ between railroads and even locations on the same railroad.
When doing my inital OJT many years ago I had a couple weeks at four different yards each. I learned that the hand/lantern signal to have the engineer accelerate a cut of cars to uncouple them in motion and let them roll by momentum into yard tracks (kicking cars) was slightly different between a couple of the yards. While all the yards were on the same railroad, at least for 30 plus years, two had once been on other roads. One was M&StL, the other CGW. The old ways often outlast the railroad that used them.
Jeff
adkrr64Rather than referring to "lamps", it would be better to refer to "hand signals". Lamps are the tool used in low light/ night time to make hand signals visible. As for your questions: 2. Hand signals are very much in use nowadays, especially when light locomotive moves involved (at least on the RR I work at). They can be especially handy in situations where there are two crews working in the same area, to avoid one having crew's radio communications "step on" another crew. 3. There are lamps specifically designed for railroad use. Here is an example. They can be used as a flashlight, but more important for RR purposes, they are visible from the side....
3. There are lamps specifically designed for railroad use. Here is an example. They can be used as a flashlight, but more important for RR purposes, they are visible from the side....
Brakeman lanterns have gotten hi-tech since the ones I was given to use in the 1960's & 70's. As I recall, there were two different types of bulbs available with one being brighter than the other and it had a higher battery draw. The carrier freely made the lower power bulbs available to trainmen, the higher powered bulb not so much. Batteries were also freely available - you don't want to be in the middle of a move and have your battery die. Company radios were not issued to trainmen at that point in time and very few engines had radios.
The switch to radios happened in the last half of the 1980's as the carriers began inplementing territory control tools other than Timetable & Train Orders and the elimination of Train Order Operator locations. The methods of territory control required personnel in the field to be able to contact the Train Dispatcher for movement authority
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
A large consideration there is the technology available. These days a handheld/portable radio will fit in a shirt pocket. Some of the early handhelds were rightfully called "bricks."
The late 70's and early 80's saw Conrail (and probably others) using a radio that was carried over one's shoulder on a strap. I've learned that one reason for the size of the radio at that time was that it used two good, old-fashioned lantern batteries - commonly used even today in the lanterns used by railroaders.
As ADK64 points out, sometimes hand signals are the desirable option.
Changing between radio and hand signals should involve a job briefing - as simple as "changing to hand signals." Every now and then folks have been known to throw out a hand signal instead of reaching for their radio.
Before radios became common, crews would often have to relay hand signals if the engineer could not see the person initiating the signal. Depending on the length of the train, that could involve multiple crew members.
#4 - When in doubt, take the safe course. Stop everything and talk it over. Maybe in person, maybe over the radio.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
adkrr64 4. As noted, use of personal cell phones are usually prohibited. In NORAC, though, there is verbiage in the rule involving shove moves that allow for the use of cameras to provide visibility in the direction of the shove. I don't know anyone using such technology, but it might be something that could be equipped on a shoving platform (aka caboose).
See https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/218.99 for the legal requirements and https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/appendix-D_to_part_218 for "additional requirements".
The primary use case right now for cameras is fixed overhead cameras in a terminal, typically being monitored from someone in an office watching on a computer screen.
Other applications are allowable under the regulations. The way I read it, under the right circumstances you could stick an iPhone on an EOT device, put an iPad in the locomotive cab, and use Facetime to protect the shove. However, the circumstances include things that are not reliably available on the mainline, such as:
- A clear lens on the camera, not covered in dirt
- A reliable broadband connection between the iPhone and the iPad
- Enough ambient light to see the track through the camera
Dan
Opinions are my own and do not represent the views of BNSF.
Every day between 4 and 5 pm a BNSF freight train grinds to a halt just shy of the Temple, TX Amtrak Station. It then begins a series of back-and-forth movements to drop off and pick-up cars from the Temple Yard. The train is maneuvering through an "S" curve, which means the engineer and conductor cannot see each other. I have looked for the smoke signals, but having seen none, I have concluded that they are in radio contact with each other.
What happens if the radio link breaks?
The best part of the action is listening to the diesels when they begin to shove the train back into the yard. The roar is worth the 35-mile drive from my home to Temple to hear it.
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
My question about the camera was regarding the engineer being able to see what the conductor was seeing, not a camera without the conductor. I didn't know if that would be useful or completely unnecessary since the movement was so slow.
By 'hand signals', from what I've found, it means the movement (vertical, horizontal, in a wide or smaller circle). I didn't have a clue that was 'hand' signals.
I was surprised to see that most of the lanterns still used alkaline batteries. Very few had options for rechargeables.
What percentage of conductors still carry a lantern?
Perry BabinMy question about the camera was regarding the engineer being able to see what the conductor was seeing, not a camera without the conductor. I didn't know if that would be useful or completely unnecessary since the movement was so slow. By 'hand signals', from what I've found, it means the movement (vertical, horizontal, in a wide or smaller circle). I didn't have a clue that was 'hand' signals. I was surprised to see that most of the lanterns still used alkaline batteries. Very few had options for rechargeables. What percentage of conductors still carry a lantern?
In the dark every Conductor or Trainman is carrying a lantern - to be able to see! It is DARK out there. Even in yards that have lights - cars in the yards create shadows on things the need to be viewed clearly.
1. jeff: what three basic signals are taught/legal rather than the many other homebrew/"outlaw" hand signals?
2. PJS1: besides break in radio signal....I have observed a pick-up...conductor to engineer signals/talks carlengths till coupling.....if the engineer does not hear more information at the halfway point of the last signal....he should stop and request a signal for safety in case something has gone wrong.
3. BTW: horn/engineer signals ???? 2/1/1 for crossing 2 for forward 3 backward multiple blasts for something on track. would one extra long blast be, call for a signal? endmrw0814231805
Lantern or any light they choose to carry?
A flashlight that fits in the pocket is rechargeable and gives plenty of light to see may not be suitable as a signal device.
Perry BabinLantern or any light they choose to carry? A flashlight that fits in the pocket is rechargeable and gives plenty of light to see may not be suitable as a signal device.
The Trainmans Lantern has been developed over many years. Its handle allows it to be carried in many ways that don't require ones hand(s) to be actively grasping it. Flashlights that require the person to actively hold it with one hand thus decrease the actions one can take with their hands.
Your lack of being around railroad operations is limiting your understanding of them.
Is there anyone here who has worked at night to say how often they carried a railroad lantern vs just a good flashlight to see where you were going because you had a radio for communication?
Perry BabinI was surprised to see that most of the lanterns still used alkaline batteries. Very few had options for rechargeables.
Changing out the battery is a fast and simple job. Lantern batteries are generally available (I keep a spare when I can). I mentioned the radio using lantern batteries earlier. I'd imagine there are cases of such batteries in key locations.
And, there's not really anywhere to charge a lantern on a train. Unless a locomotive has an inverter (some do - for things like fridges and microwaves), there's no place to charge them anyhow.
Perry BabinBy 'hand signals', from what I've found, it means the movement (vertical, horizontal, in a wide or smaller circle). I didn't have a clue that was 'hand' signals.
Among the hand signals I've encountered are a hand to the waist (half a car), arm pumps (number of cars), hands of a clock (last 15 feet to a hitch), fingers held up (number of cars), three fingers held up (request three step), point between the cars (going in, as to hook up the brake hoses), arm straight up (apply brakes), arm waved above head (release brakes).
One signal that's mentioned in the rules is "any object, waved violently back and forth, is an indication to stop." Better known as a "wash out."
I'll have to look into more hand signals. Are many/any of these still used?
https://railroadsignals.us/other/hand/index.htm
If the batteries they use are best for railroads, I can understand that. LiIon batteries in an LED flashlight will last a week with intermittent use. I go 6 months between charges on the light I carry but I only use it a few times a week. Add to that the flashlights have multiple power levels to reduce battery usage even farther. I'm not trying to change what's being used. It's just information for those with no experience with newer systems.
I forgot about "slow down," slack, and stretch, all of which we do use from time to time.
I now use an LED lantern, which should stretch my available use substantially.
I would imagine that newer battery technologies will come into use - but you can't beat what's served faithfully for a lot of years.
Do you have a model # for your lantern? Don't go out of your way to get it if you don't know it.
An LED (depending on how hard it's driven) will go a long time on a 6v battery. It should be 4 D-cells internally. I ran a 2-D LED maglite continuously and it lasted about 8 hours.
Perry BabinDo you have a model # for your lantern?
Star 2012
Cotton Belt MP104 1. jeff: what three basic signals are taught/legal rather than the many other homebrew/"outlaw" hand signals? 2. PJS1: besides break in radio signal....I have observed a pick-up...conductor to engineer signals/talks carlengths till coupling.....if the engineer does not hear more information at the halfway point of the last signal....he should stop and request a signal for safety in case something has gone wrong. 3. BTW: horn/engineer signals ???? 2/1/1 for crossing 2 for forward 3 backward multiple blasts for something on track. would one extra long blast be, call for a signal? endmrw0814231805
Go forward, go backward, and stop. In actual practice, forward and backwards are lantern signals used at night and dependent on engine direction when switching in the yard.
In daylight hours, the hand signals we use are come to me and go away from me. Those are not dependent on engine direction.
When using radio for shoving moves, the engr must have the movement stopped within half the distance of the last radio instructions received, unless further instructions are given.
And some give good car counts and some don't. At times, I'll ask how we are doing when we are getting close to the time I need to be stopping. Sometimes just slowing down gets the condr's attention.
If you can't hear the conductor, you stop. I've done a few times. I couldn't hear the portable radio. Sometimes it's interference from power lines, just a bad radio or antenna, or train length. For a time my home terminal had a repeater channel to help comm when the engine and portable were a couple miles apart.
Lately they've issued some better and longer antennas for the portables. That has helped immensely.
The only trainmen that don't have to carry a lantern are Remote Control Operators. They are issued head lamps, like the ones sportsmen use. Some conductors will wear a head lamp to read their paperwork but carry the lantern for signaling.
Engineers get a flashlight. I carry one, not the railroad issued one, and wear a headlamp when needed at night.
The current trainmen's lantern being used is smaller than the one previously mentioned and uses C or D cell batteries. It also has a magnet to allow it to be stuck on the car when needing both hands for a task, like replacing an air hose.
I have a reverser that has a flashlight built in. It comes in handy when I need a flashlight or a reverser.
When using radios - there are dead spots. Spots where a radio can't transmitt a understandable signal or where a understandable signal can't be recieved. The dead spots may be for both transmission and reception or it may be for one or the other. Dead spots do become known to the routine users in particular areas.
I am a dinosaur and listen to terrestial radio in my vehicle. I experience dead spots that are even close to the transmitter location. In other occasions on a different channel, I get one station and move 25 feet and get another station (one station is sports talk, the other is country music). Both stations share the same broadcast frequency.
I still have my Northern Pacific switchmans lantern that I had to purchase from the NP in April of 1966. If I needed a new battery, I had to show the yardmaster my old battery in order to receive a new one! It does get very dark in the yard as I had to write down car initials and numbers while checking the yards in Minneapolis. We also had two light bulbs in the lantern itself and two extra bulbs in the cap of the lantern.
Ed Burns
NP BN BNSF from Northtown.
NP Eddie The only trainmen that don't have to carry a lantern are Remote Control Operators.
The only trainmen that don't have to carry a lantern are Remote Control Operators.
Do all conductors have to carry a lantern at all times or just when it's expected to get dark?
If only when dark, what's the threshold where they must start carrying it?
I can't remember a single time when I've seen a conductor carrying a lantern during the day. There aren't many videos showing working at night.
When I worked the skateman job below the Connellsville, Pa. hump I carried a flashlight at night. I could put it in my pocket when not needed and since I worked alone following the yardmasters instructions issued over a speaker system, I did not need to signal anyone.
Some old heads used to tell the story about a trainmaster who could not understand why the night turn crews used so many more lantern batteries than the daylight and afternoon shifts.
Two questions:
1. Does a conductor or other train crew member carry a lantern which is assigned on a semi permanent basis, or does one pickup a lantern when going on duty?
2. Same with the radio...assigned or picked up?
Bonus question. Dispatcher or others will at times ask the trainman to call on their phones. Is there a special provision in rule book for such actions?Ed
Perry BabinDo all conductors have to carry a lantern at all times or just when it's expected to get dark?
Perry Babin If only when dark, what's the threshold where they must start carrying it?
MP173 Two questions: 1. Does a conductor or other train crew member carry a lantern which is assigned on a semi permanent basis, or does one pickup a lantern when going on duty? 2. Same with the radio...assigned or picked up? Bonus question. Dispatcher or others will at times ask the trainman to call on their phones. Is there a special provision in rule book for such actions?Ed
Lanterns and radios are exclusive to the conductor. Radios are assigned, that is the serial number is recorded (or is supposed to be) when the radio is issued. Lanterns, because they are a lot cheaper, aren't. They issue one and replace it as needed. We have a yerly $300 voucher at a safety supply company where we can obtain various items; lanterns, headlamps and batteries are among the items.
Cell phones can be used at times as an alternate means of communication, with all restrictions being observed. I've only heard our dispatchers ask MOW or signal people in the field to call them on the phone. Usually in areas where there is high radio traffic or poor radio reception.
Once upon a time, portable radios were pooled. that was when they were first being issued and there weren't enough to go around. I have a set of teain orders from the CNW about 1975, There is an attached message that conductors on their return to Proviso were to return their portable to the yard office due to not enough to be permanently issued. I think at the time the conductors had an assigned portable and the one needing to be returned was a second one to be used by a brakeman.
At one time there was also an arbitrary payment made for having to carry a radio. That's been gone a long time.
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