Here is where the 'catch" is on this. These Ipad devices are issued by the carriers, and not are of personal property. Phone rules are stil same as you CANNOT use a phone w/the train moving. I cannot say about other carriers, but on the orange & black, the carrier-issued Ipad can be used to look up any information in the four rule books, the timetables, track charts and station/yard "playbooks" w/the train moving. We no longer have hard copy printed rule books--they are all electronic. Most of the work reporting on these devices simply are clicking a line or two. An example is say you have scheduled work to s/o or p/u an eng. Once you hit "arrive" at that station, the work reporting is completed w/normally nothing else to do, other than the pyhiscal work outside. The devices are programmed for certain functions that cannot be activated when the train is moving--such as the van taxi enroute to your location or the wind gauge speed indicators. Those can only be turned on when the train is stopped. Crossing warning speed restrictions and updates to Form A's are issued through the PTC screen which the condr copies on paper provided, of course, if the train is PTC equipped. The first usage of Ipads I want to say was like five yrs ago but it only has been this yr where the iron fisted militant style, like turnimg off printers, has been forced on us. I do not agree w/any of that. We still need printing functions. This is where, like many other industries, the IT deptartment has taken over operation of the business; just like auto control/TO locomotives and now newly introduced automated dispatching. Enough typing for today. Thanks for listening.
Sam
BaltACDEngineer can not copy a mandatory directive on paper - WHEN THE TRAIN IS MOVING. Engineers CAN copy directives on paper if his train is STOPPED.
Definitely true - left that part out. I've had so sit and wait for the conductor to copy a Form D then bring it up to me in the cab.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68Never mind electronic devices (tablets, etc), an engineer can't copy a directive on paper from the radio in the same circumstances. I have no problem believing that paperless will be a fact of life for many railroad applications.
I have no problem believing that paperless will be a fact of life for many railroad applications.
Engineer can not copy a mandatory directive on paper - WHEN THE TRAIN IS MOVING. Engineers CAN copy directives on paper if his train is STOPPED.
SOP in attempting to transmit Slow Orders and other mandatory directives to Amtrak or other carriers that operate with ONLY a engineer in the control compartment of their train is to request the Engineer get the Conductor to the control compartment so that THEY can legally copy the madatory directive to paper and perform the necessary repeating process for the directive.
When transmitting Mandatory Directives to MARC or VRE movements, it was common to have the Engineer copy the directives while their train was stopped at one of their many Station Stops.
The future will see changes.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Never mind electronic devices (tablets, etc), an engineer can't copy a directive on paper from the radio in the same circumstances.
railfanjohnI thought "electronic devices" were not permitted in the locomotive cab? So how can a conductor or engineer consult the timetable and/or rule book if he has to use an 'iPad' ["electronic device"] in order to do so?
Here's a handy dandy flowchart (pdf). , courtesy of the FRA.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
BaltACDPersonal electronic devices are still prohibited from being in operation.
My Fitbit gets stowed when I'm operating...
railfanjohn SFbrkmn Another form of communication change is the useage of employee Ipads that have done away w/traditional rulebooks & timetables as these are now in the hand held device. This now has expanded to train lists & GTBs. At some locations, printers have either bn turned off or removed from the premises. At my home terminal, the ability to print trip documents is still available (provided the printer is not broke down). I prefer to use hard copies and will thus do that. At the AFHT, all crew printers are gone. All trip "papers" now have to be entered into the Ipad. About the only hard copy you can obtain is a short list of the train that is done by asking the on duty TM. I thought "electronic devices" were not permitted in the locomotive cab? So how can a conductor or engineer consult the timetable and/or rule book if he has to use an 'iPad' ["electronic device"] in order to do so?
SFbrkmn Another form of communication change is the useage of employee Ipads that have done away w/traditional rulebooks & timetables as these are now in the hand held device. This now has expanded to train lists & GTBs. At some locations, printers have either bn turned off or removed from the premises. At my home terminal, the ability to print trip documents is still available (provided the printer is not broke down). I prefer to use hard copies and will thus do that. At the AFHT, all crew printers are gone. All trip "papers" now have to be entered into the Ipad. About the only hard copy you can obtain is a short list of the train that is done by asking the on duty TM.
Another form of communication change is the useage of employee Ipads that have done away w/traditional rulebooks & timetables as these are now in the hand held device. This now has expanded to train lists & GTBs. At some locations, printers have either bn turned off or removed from the premises. At my home terminal, the ability to print trip documents is still available (provided the printer is not broke down). I prefer to use hard copies and will thus do that. At the AFHT, all crew printers are gone. All trip "papers" now have to be entered into the Ipad. About the only hard copy you can obtain is a short list of the train that is done by asking the on duty TM.
[quote user="SFbrkmn"]
I can recall seing pre-merger UP crews working a local using the bulky side shoulder lunch box radios in 1985. That would have been toward the end that equipment being used
Perry Babin When (in general) did railroads switch from communication by lamp to 2-way radio?
An interesting question -- when did RRs start giving the guy on the ground a radio? How many years after radios started appearing on engines and cabooses?
There was an article around 1947 about a 28-pound trainphone for the guy on the ground to carry on his shoulder -- you're familiar with the PRR trainphone system? Some might say it's not strictly radio, but...
Were lunchbox-size radios the first in wide use, or were there bigger VHF radios to lug around, circa 1950?
[/quote]
timz Perry Babin When (in general) did railroads switch from communication by lamp to 2-way radio? An interesting question -- when did RRs start giving the guy on the ground a radio? How many years after radios started appearing on engines and cabooses? There was an article around 1947 about a 28-pound trainphone for the guy on the ground to carry on his shoulder -- you're familiar with the PRR trainphone system? Some might say it's not strictly radio, but... Were lunchbox-size radios the first in wide use, or were there bigger VHF radios to lug around, circa 1950?
Here is a post about a new exhibit at the NY Museum of Transportation regarding crew communications. If anyone is traveling close to Rochester NY, it might be an interesting stop.
https://railroad.net/railroad-radio-exhibit-at-nymt-t175923.html
Gramp How did they survive the tunnel?
How did they survive the tunnel?
Telltales told them to hit the deck.
Dealing with the fumes was another matter.
Thanks for the interesting video. A short train, yet 2 brakemen. It makes me wonder if anyone complained at the time about "job-killing air brakes"? A good many men must have lost their jobs as a result. Better "job-killing" than man-killing, though.
The video clip reminded me of yet another hazard of a brakeman's job: a face full of cinders from time to time. How on earth did they do it?
NKP guyI was reading about brakemen in the days before air brakes. The engineer had a signal that meant "brakemen up" to the top of the cars, and one that meant they could climb down...all at speed. Imagine doing that job, hopping from car to car, on moving, swaying trains, around corners, in the rain & snow, heat, etc. It must have been the worst job in railroading; and all done by whistle commands.
At speed - speed for the day was in to 20 to 25 MPH range for freights. Still considering the track structure of the day - I am certain being on car tops at 25 MPH felt like 200 MPH.
There is a video of the SP moving a 20 cars or so train on a early Edison movie. Two engines on the head end and a helper cut in ahead of the caboose. I think I counted two brakemen decorating the tops of the cars.
Santa Fe yd jobs @ Newton, KS began using pakset radios in 1983. At first, only the foreman had one but quickly was exoanded to everyone on the job. At other locations and other carriers bk in that timeframe, I do not know when the blending of radio use age on yd work came about
jeffhergert I think it was like 2011? when the narrow band change came about. The slightly larger Motorola x2000 I traded in for the new smaller Kenwood at the radio shop. when time allows, I join a group of retirees at a local burger joint in Wichita that gets together once a wk that is located by the tracks. One or two of these fellows brings their old paksets with them, have it on and able to hear the talking TWD five miles away knowing something is going to pass by fairly soon. In the basement man cave train room, I have my late father-in-law 1980s Motorola pakset (not useable of course). Compared to the devices now, that thing is big SFbrkmn Lanterns are assigned yours to keep. Devices now are smaller, better brighter LED lights with three C battries and easier to handle compared to the Starlight models that used a single bulky battery. Paksets are assigned and stay w/you. The Kenwood I have has bn w/me going bk to over a decade ago when my 1998 Motorola was required to be traded in. The current pakset is battered, numbers have faded off the keyboard but the device still works as intended. A few yrs ago, a good fco-worker friend retired and handed me his Kenwood. I now have two radios which is a good thing as if one becomes lost, stolen or damaged, I have an immediate replacement. Never declined anything extra that is given to you. Sam Narrow band equipped? A few years ago everyone who didn't have narrow band radio had to turn in their radios for new ones. They said the FCC would fine the railroad if anyone was found transmitting on the non-compliant ones. I hadn't used mine since I went into engine service. Probably about 12 years or so. When I turned mine and the battery charger back in, I was able to use the original boxes it came in. I still had the boxes after all those years Jeff
I think it was like 2011? when the narrow band change came about. The slightly larger Motorola x2000 I traded in for the new smaller Kenwood at the radio shop. when time allows, I join a group of retirees at a local burger joint in Wichita that gets together once a wk that is located by the tracks. One or two of these fellows brings their old paksets with them, have it on and able to hear the talking TWD five miles away knowing something is going to pass by fairly soon. In the basement man cave train room, I have my late father-in-law 1980s Motorola pakset (not useable of course). Compared to the devices now, that thing is big
SFbrkmn Lanterns are assigned yours to keep. Devices now are smaller, better brighter LED lights with three C battries and easier to handle compared to the Starlight models that used a single bulky battery. Paksets are assigned and stay w/you. The Kenwood I have has bn w/me going bk to over a decade ago when my 1998 Motorola was required to be traded in. The current pakset is battered, numbers have faded off the keyboard but the device still works as intended. A few yrs ago, a good fco-worker friend retired and handed me his Kenwood. I now have two radios which is a good thing as if one becomes lost, stolen or damaged, I have an immediate replacement. Never declined anything extra that is given to you. Sam
Lanterns are assigned yours to keep. Devices now are smaller, better brighter LED lights with three C battries and easier to handle compared to the Starlight models that used a single bulky battery. Paksets are assigned and stay w/you. The Kenwood I have has bn w/me going bk to over a decade ago when my 1998 Motorola was required to be traded in. The current pakset is battered, numbers have faded off the keyboard but the device still works as intended. A few yrs ago, a good fco-worker friend retired and handed me his Kenwood. I now have two radios which is a good thing as if one becomes lost, stolen or damaged, I have an immediate replacement. Never declined anything extra that is given to you. Sam
Narrow band equipped? A few years ago everyone who didn't have narrow band radio had to turn in their radios for new ones. They said the FCC would fine the railroad if anyone was found transmitting on the non-compliant ones.
I hadn't used mine since I went into engine service. Probably about 12 years or so. When I turned mine and the battery charger back in, I was able to use the original boxes it came in. I still had the boxes after all those years
Jeff
tree68 NKP guy I was reading about brakemen in the days before air brakes. Longevity was not a hallmark of the brakeman's career.
NKP guy I was reading about brakemen in the days before air brakes.
Longevity was not a hallmark of the brakeman's career.
And they rarely qualified for a five finger discount.
NKP guyI was reading about brakemen in the days before air brakes.
I was reading about brakemen in the days before air brakes. The engineer had a signal that meant "brakemen up" to the top of the cars, and one that meant they could climb down...all at speed. Imagine doing that job, hopping from car to car, on moving, swaying trains, around corners, in the rain & snow, heat, etc. It must have been the worst job in railroading; and all done by whistle commands.
When riding on equipment - you have to WATCH OUT FOR YOURSELF
https://www.railwayage.com/regulatory/ntsb-issues-preliminary-report-on-csx-conductor-trainee-fatality/?RAchannel=news
Perry Babin Is there anyone here who has worked at night to say how often they carried a railroad lantern vs just a good flashlight to see where you were going because you had a radio for communication?
Is there anyone here who has worked at night to say how often they carried a railroad lantern vs just a good flashlight to see where you were going because you had a radio for communication?
One thing that I found completely insane was that conductor trainees would show up fresh out of the NS school in McDonough, GA. not knowing how to properly hold a lantern! I don't know how many trainees I had to show how to do it properly!
.
jeffhergert tree68 Whistle signals reminds me of a story is an old issue of Trains (IIRC). Seems the hogger had disregarded Rule G and was in no shape to run. The fireman took over the seat. Because they had stopped for some reason, there were flagmen out. This being pre-radio (steam as I recall), it was whistle signals to call the flagmen in. The fireman did some toots, not remembering exactly what the signal should be, at which point the hogger roused from his stupor long enough to say "it's six for east" or something to that effect. He may have been highly intoxicated, but he knew his rules (except Rule G...). "Four for Eastbound." One of my favorites from the 1970s written by Lloyd Arkinstal (not sure of the spelling) who worked as a fireman on the Pennsylvania RR during WW2. Jeff
tree68 Whistle signals reminds me of a story is an old issue of Trains (IIRC). Seems the hogger had disregarded Rule G and was in no shape to run. The fireman took over the seat. Because they had stopped for some reason, there were flagmen out. This being pre-radio (steam as I recall), it was whistle signals to call the flagmen in. The fireman did some toots, not remembering exactly what the signal should be, at which point the hogger roused from his stupor long enough to say "it's six for east" or something to that effect. He may have been highly intoxicated, but he knew his rules (except Rule G...).
Whistle signals reminds me of a story is an old issue of Trains (IIRC). Seems the hogger had disregarded Rule G and was in no shape to run. The fireman took over the seat. Because they had stopped for some reason, there were flagmen out. This being pre-radio (steam as I recall), it was whistle signals to call the flagmen in.
The fireman did some toots, not remembering exactly what the signal should be, at which point the hogger roused from his stupor long enough to say "it's six for east" or something to that effect.
He may have been highly intoxicated, but he knew his rules (except Rule G...).
"Four for Eastbound." One of my favorites from the 1970s written by Lloyd Arkinstal (not sure of the spelling) who worked as a fireman on the Pennsylvania RR during WW2.
My 1953 B&O Rule Book
1 Long 3 Shorts - Flagman protect rear of train.3 Short 1 Long - Protect front of train
4 Longs - Flagman may return from West or South in accordance with Flagging Rules.
5 Longs - Flagman may return from East or North in accordance with Flagging Rules.
Recalling Flagmen get even more involved when it happens in multiple track territory.
jeffhergertI'd probably say over the radio that if you were talking to me, I can't hear you. Hoping that the problem is with the microphone, it has happened, rather than a full radio failure. If no response, I'd wait until I received a hand signal or the conductor walked over to the engine to find out what was wrong.
Many of our volunteers purchase their own radios. I generally keep track of them and provide programming information as requested. One volunteer recently got a radio and programmed it with the information I provided. Unfortunately, I failed to notice that said information included a CTCSS tone on the receive side (also known as PL or CG), meaning that any radio not programmed with said tone on the transmit side (which commonly is the case), wouldn't get through to him. We figured it out and he's up and running now.
The whistle/horn signal to call for a signal is 4 shorts. It's still in the rule book, I double checked because I wasn't sure if it had been removed. Even so, I imagine most would upon hearing the signal think, "What's that idiot blowing the horn for?"
I'd probably say over the radio that if you were talking to me, I can't hear you. Hoping that the problem is with the microphone, it has happened, rather than a full radio failure. If no response, I'd wait until I received a hand signal or the conductor walked over to the engine to find out what was wrong.
jeffhergert would one extra long blast be, call for a signal?
JEFF: if you can see the conductor and he is seemingly talking on the radio but you cannot get his instructions......i.e. in the old daze, how would you signal the conductor/brakeman you need instructions. Some signal via the horn of the locomotive? endmrw0817231412
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