charlie hebdo What is the purpose of the HBD network? To detect overheated journals and prevent subsequent fires and/or derailments. The way they appear to be used on NS failed to detect and warn the train crew until it was too late. That is a system design failure.
What is the purpose of the HBD network? To detect overheated journals and prevent subsequent fires and/or derailments.
The way they appear to be used on NS failed to detect and warn the train crew until it was too late. That is a system design failure.
No system is going to catch everything.
Something else that may have caused the journal to fail is that the car's hand brake may have been sticking over a long period of time, overheating the wheel and hence overheating the journal to the point where all of the grease was gone.I personally have had to stop to check for a hot journal and found the offending journal was warm and the wheel did have a sticking hand brake. You could feel the heat from the wheel a good ways away. HBDs are aimed at the journal, not the wheel.
Another thing to consider is that when what little grease is in a single journal burns off, you are not going to see any flames.
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CSX was, and I presume they still are, looking for an increasing trend in bearing temperatures at least ten years ago. I got a call from the dispatcher to stop and inspect a car bearing to see if was safe to move to a spur track to set it off. No option of keeping it in the train. If not safe to move, a repair crew would be sent out to repair it on the single main track.
The bearing had not triggered any warning from three defectors, but the central office had noticed its steady increase in temperature. It was hot to the touch but not smoking or glowing.
We set the car off and about four days later picked it up on another trip, after the suspect axle had been replaced
mvlandsw CSX was, and I presume they still are, looking for an increasing trend in bearing temperatures at least ten years ago. I got a call from the dispatcher to stop and inspect a car bearing to see if was safe to move to a spur track to set it off. No option of keeping it in the train. If not safe to move, a repair crew would be sent out to repair it on the single main track. The bearing had not triggered any warning from three defectors, but the central office had noticed its steady increase in temperature. It was hot to the touch but not smoking or glowing. We set the car off and about four days later picked it up on another trip, after the suspect axle had been replaced
I don't know if Norfolk Southern uses any such logic in their detectors, but it wouldn't have prevented this accident anyway. The first detector mentioned was normal. The second detector showed an increase. The thrid detector showed another increase, but it sent a critical alarm condition anyway because the axle was over the temperature limit.
BigJimYou could feel the heat from the wheel a good ways away. HBDs are aimed at the journal, not the wheel.
And that is what might be needed to upgrade safety, by detecting other problems that can lead to derailments.
The question is what train wrecks we want to prevent. Not every wreck is caused by a failed bearing, f'rinstance. Some are caused by large concrete beams hung up across the ROW. Some are caused by broken wheels, or track failures. So we need to take a look at what constitutes the low hanging fruit. Which is pretty much what Euclid says. And maybe an East Palestine isn't in that group.
We also have a conundrum here. I'm sure that, deep down, railroad management is interested in being safe, and thus good neighbors. I think the prevailing opinion here, though, is that it's the stockholders (at least some of them) who are the problem. They don't seem to care about the occasional wreck as long as their dividend check is on time.
And we can't forget about the Pinto.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68... And we can't forget about the Pinto.
Or the MCAS 'option' on the Boeing 737-Max
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
tree68stockholders (at least some of them) who are the problem.
Top management is incentivized through stock options. Higher profits by cutting costs is their low hanging fruit. That usually boosts stock share prices. So it's not just Wall Street that wants to cut costs. Add in stock buybacks and you explain a large chunk of why cutting costs, including labor by having monster trains with heavier lading is so prevalen [as opposed to building revenues through better service and attracting customers].
Where is Dagny Taggart? Or for that matter, John Galt?
Have I opened a can of worms in asking?
John
Attuvian1 Where is Dagny Taggart? Or for that matter, John Galt? Have I opened a can of worms in asking? John Unfortunately, they are only in a book. Imaginary, idealized characters, which is why utopias are imaginary.
BigJim Something else that may have caused the journal to fail is that the car's hand brake may have been sticking over a long period of time, overheating the wheel and hence overheating the journal to the point where all of the grease was gone.I personally have had to stop to check for a hot journal and found the offending journal was warm and the wheel did have a sticking hand brake. You could feel the heat from the wheel a good ways away. HBDs are aimed at the journal, not the wheel. Another thing to consider is that when what little grease is in a single journal burns off, you are not going to see any flames.
We get stopped for hot wheels all the time. Only it's through the dispatcher, who is notified by the bearing desk that monitors trains for heat build up, and not through the detector giving a direct alarm.
I imagine the difference between the detector going off or not is the heat threshold. The dispatcher's hot wheel alerts have the offending car ID and axles, usually all 4 axles. Usually the cause is a hand brake, but tonight a train we met had two cars to check. Neither was a hand brake but other air brake issues. Normal procedure then is to cut out the car's air brakes and bleed off the brakes.
Our instructions for a hot bearing alert allow for a car to be pulled up to the conductor under certain conditions. (Not a Key train, not on concrete ties, not over a switch, doesn't need excessive power to move, etc.) A hot wheel can be pulled up for inspection as long as the car doesn't pass through a through truss bridge. There's also an option to go 30 mph to the next detector, provided you don't go through the aforementioned type bridge.
Usually if it's the first detector after doing work, the hot wheel is going to be a hand brake.
Jeff
Here is a long read on how RRs are trying to influence regulations and PR.
‘Crafting an illusion’: US rail firms’ multimillion-dollar PR push | Ohio train derailment | The Guardian
Lots of disturbing examples of the callous approach of US rails, especially NS.
*the industry also employs more indirect tactics to promote what the AAR calls “balanced regulation”, its euphemism for eliminating mandatory, government-enforced safety standards in favor of voluntary, industry-led oversight." [Corporate-speak for zero regulation,]
Attuvian1Where is Dagny Taggart? Or for that matter, John Galt?
Overmod Attuvian1 Where is Dagny Taggart? Or for that matter, John Galt? Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged.
Attuvian1
Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged.
I saw a headline that made me chuckle. It was something along the line of "Big management shakeup at Union Pacific Railroad as a result of terrible Ohio derailment ". Is that the new AI written journalism I keep reading about?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy Siding I saw a headline that made me chuckle. It was something along the line of "Big management shakeup at Union Pacific Railroad as a result of terrible Ohio derailment ". Is that the new AI written journalism I keep reading about?
Given a previous comment about how the car in question may have come off UP, there may be more to that than meets the eye...
Right now any railroads that pulled that car on it's trip towards Ohio especially if they had any chance to inspect it and take corrective action on it are scrambling to try and limit their potential liability for damages when all is said and done. UP may have just cracked their defense.
I wonder if a certain poster wants the railroads to install car sensors and closer lineside detectors before or after they put up crossing gates at every crossing in the country. Just wondering...
tree68 <SNIP> I'm sure that, deep down, railroad management is interested in being safe, and thus good neighbors. I think the prevailing opinion here, though, is that it's the stockholders (at least some of them) who are the problem. They don't seem to care about the occasional wreck as long as their dividend check is on time.
<SNIP>
I'm sure that, deep down, railroad management is interested in being safe, and thus good neighbors. I think the prevailing opinion here, though, is that it's the stockholders (at least some of them) who are the problem. They don't seem to care about the occasional wreck as long as their dividend check is on time.
I read the preliminary report.
Something sparked the bearing to rapidly rise in temperature which led to this derailment. The previous HBD readings were within limits. NS is obviously going to pay a big price for this, both monetarily, emotionally, and goodwill erosion. Lets not lose sight that the car was owned by another party (GATX) and was running normally...until it didnt.
Accidents occur. I am NOT minimizing what occurred in East Palestine. But without a HBD every mile, or some other technology driven method, this accident occurred.
Reminds me of a sermon from my minister 25 years ago in which he stated "in life there are certain storms one cannot prepare for." A few days later we were buried with a massive snow storm which brought NW Indiana to a halt for a couple of days. A few months later my wife received a call "it's cancer". We couldnt and didnt prepare for that storm.
Assessing risk is very interesting and very difficult. Buttigieg says 1000 derailments per year is too many. How many car and truck accidents per year are there? Too many to both. What are alternatives to shipping hazmat? Dedicated trains similar to the high/wide specials? The chemical companies will not like the service and costs involved.
We live in a complex world. Tradeoffs are made on just about every decision faced.
Thankfully no one died or was seriously injured in this accident. Pretty amazing really.
Ed
One thing many MAY have to come to grips with - There may not be any single individual or action upon which to place the INSTANT responsibility.Just like one can't apply personal responsibility for the Turkey/Syria Earthquakes or the Tsunami that damaged Japan and the Fukishema reactor.The HBD's responded in the manner they were expected to with the readings they saw. The crew responded in the manner they were expected to after getting their Critical Warning.
Nobody responded to the sighting of Icebergs by ordering Full Speed Ahead.
Parts often fail w/o any physical evidence...especially electrical devices.
And isn't a roller bearing basically a sealed device, you can't find out a defect unless it happens. It is not the days of journal boxes with oily cotton waste packed inside.
MP173Accidents occur. I am NOT minimizing what occurred in East Palestine. But without a HBD every mile, or some other technology driven method, this accident occurred.
As noted in the other thread, rapid roller bearing failure is a known problem. The question is how often it occurs, and how often such failure results in a significant event. And whether more defect detectors could have prevented any of them.
This event may lead to more closely spaced defect detectors, or not. That will depend on the weight of public opinion and a determination of just how many of the bearing failure events led to significant events.
Other technologies may come to the fore. How quickly they can be implemented will be a factor. Parts availability notwithstanding, adding defect detectors is relatively easy, for the most part.
If there is sufficient pressure, there may be a call for more frequent, and thorough, inspections of bearings - but there are, what?, ten million or more such bearings. Quite the task.
Is 1000 derailments too many? One could argue at any number above zero is too many, but one also needs to be realistic. In a typical year, US railroads move traffic over some 140,000 miles of track. That's one derailment per 140 miles of track for the entire year. In 2022 the railroads hauled some 5.46 TRILLION ton-miles. One thousand derailments is an insignificant number in that total.
Not minimizing any incident - especially such as East Palestine. But statistically, it's really just kind of a blip.
Should we work toward fixing problems? Absolutely. But we need to choose our battles.
Well, this is interesting, after initial hysteria fearing the wreck's contamination might compromise Indiana water sources, and level headed assurances from experts that such was impossible, now I see stories that the toxic sludge being removed from the crash site will indeed be transported to Indiana for burial.
WANE TV Channel 15
Even more interesting are the claims that raw liquid from the crash are to be injected deeply into the earth somewhere in southern Ohio <sarcasm> "What Could Possibly Go Wrong? </sarcasm>
Why cant they just distribute this gunk along with the quarterly dividend checks.
How does a wreck near the Ohio-Pennsylvania border compromise Indiana water supplies?
Interesting that the preferred solution is not pyrolysis. That would indicate that things very different from vinyl chloride monomer and oligos are present in quantity... or that strange priorities are involved.
No what it's more than likely going to lead to is more frequent inspections of all roller bearings in service including replacing those in service at set intervals. I know that here at my company we did something similar about 15 years ago. The boss had a rash of seal and bearing failures were trucks and trailers ended up broke down. So he had his son and the IT guys look at the maintenance records of the fleet. They discovered that the MTBF that is Mean Time Between Failures for wheel seals was right at 26 months on properly installed and preloaded wheel bearings. The MTBF for wheel bearings was 54 months. At the time the fleet had a ten year trade cycle for trailers and 4 years on trucks. So a new maintenance schedule was released. Every 2 years all wheel seals are replaced on all equipment and 4 years all bearings and races also. Breakdowns and OOS for wheel related problems dropped 99 percent. Every now and then we still get the seal that fails but overall we stopped them cold.
The railroads need to learn that these bearings while robust do wear out and fail. The cost of replacing them is peanuts compared with the cost of a massive derailment involving hazmat in a populated area let alone an environmental sensitive one.
Just imagine the impact on the environment if what happened in Ohio happened say in Glacier national park or anywhere on the Snake or Columbia River including the fire and breaching of the tank cars.
OvermodHow does a wreck near the Ohio-Pennsylvania border compromise Indiana water supplies?
Those were my thoughts entirely....until they decided to bury spoils from the wreck in Indiana.
Thankfully they selected a site on the western side of the state, so any run-off/leaching should flow towards the Gulf, I'm thankfully on the other side of the divide.
But then they claim some waste is also going to Michigan, and our domestic water supply sources a river flowing from our Northern neighbor.
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