Shadow the Cats owner Charlie I hate to destroy you but if there was a total embargo on hazmat getting moved in this nation then guess what would happen to the economy. It would self destruct in less than a week. 2 of the largest hazmat movement categories are 1203 and 1993. Those being gasoline and fuel oil. Those 2 alone would be enough to kill the economy.
Charlie I hate to destroy you but if there was a total embargo on hazmat getting moved in this nation then guess what would happen to the economy. It would self destruct in less than a week. 2 of the largest hazmat movement categories are 1203 and 1993. Those being gasoline and fuel oil. Those 2 alone would be enough to kill the economy.
I was primarily thinking of the more dangerous chemicals, such as vinyl chloride on the NS train. The embargo was only on rail transit. You would know if truck transport is safer. In a truck crash, only one tank could rupture rather than enough volume to wipe out a town.
The chemicals can stay. It is the method of rail shipping that has to change. That and the wayside detectors.
Euclid The chemicals can stay. It is the method of rail shipping that has to change. That and the wayside detectors.
Return, but not until method of shipping and detectors are remedied.
Vinyl Chloride is already shipped in pressurized tanks. What the bigger problem is with this derailment was the NS not catching the car that caused the problem 20 miles away on fire. You can design anything to resist everything but it will still fail. 2 cases in point the Titanic was designed to survive 4 flooded compartments at once. She had 6 her sister ship the Britannic was the updated design redone to survive even more than her sister did. Couldn't survive sheer stupidity of her crew leaving the portholes open.
Fred M Cain Mr. Cain, my credentials. I was the non-agreement night supervisor in the dispatching office for the line through East Palestine in the late 1970's and operating rules supervisor in the early 80's. I was there before the traffic got shifted off to the ex-NYC side. It's definitely the old PRR mainline at the wreck site. Conway to Alliance ( East Palestine is between those places) kept its traffic up to the present. West of Alliance to Crestline got much of the traffic taken off in the Conrail era and even more after NS took over. Under Conrail, there was little through traffic left from Crestline to Tolleston starting in the early 80's. In the Conrail merger, CSX got the railroad from Crestline to Tolleston and in the early 2000's that was leased, not sold, to the Chicago, Fort Wayne & Eastern which is now a G&W company. NS has trackage rights Crestline to Colsan (that they use) and trackage rights to Fort Wayne and Tolleston. NS did not use the rights to Fort Wayne for a while and then they did. Don't know what they're doing now. Also trackage rights Fort Wayne to Tolleston and I don't know how much they use that now. There are different segments which have (or had) different usages. tree68 OldEngineman The line on which East Palestine is located -- is this the old Pennsylvania main line, or is it another? It was Pennsy - whether or not it was the main line I'll leave to others. tree68 OldEngineman The line on which East Palestine is located -- is this the old Pennsylvania main line, or is it another? It was Pennsy - whether or not it was the main line I'll leave to others. I'm thinking that much or the original Pennsy mainline from Pittsburgh to Chicago has been downgraded, some sold off to short line operators and some segments possibly even abandoned. Didn't it go through Crestline, OH and Fort Wayne, IN? The line that the train wrecked on could've been the old Pennsy line from Pittsburgh to Elyria, OH which back in the old Pennsy dates wasn't all that important. Perhaps someone on our list has more information who can correct my guesses here.
tree68 OldEngineman The line on which East Palestine is located -- is this the old Pennsylvania main line, or is it another? It was Pennsy - whether or not it was the main line I'll leave to others.
OldEngineman The line on which East Palestine is located -- is this the old Pennsylvania main line, or is it another? It was Pennsy - whether or not it was the main line I'll leave to others.
The line on which East Palestine is located -- is this the old Pennsylvania main line, or is it another? It was Pennsy - whether or not it was the main line I'll leave to others.
Fred M Cain tree68 OldEngineman The line on which East Palestine is located -- is this the old Pennsylvania main line, or is it another? It was Pennsy - whether or not it was the main line I'll leave to others. tree68 OldEngineman The line on which East Palestine is located -- is this the old Pennsylvania main line, or is it another? It was Pennsy - whether or not it was the main line I'll leave to others. I'm thinking that much or the original Pennsy mainline from Pittsburgh to Chicago has been downgraded, some sold off to short line operators and some segments possibly even abandoned. Didn't it go through Crestline, OH and Fort Wayne, IN? The line that the train wrecked on could've been the old Pennsy line from Pittsburgh to Elyria, OH which back in the old Pennsy dates wasn't all that important. Perhaps someone on our list has more information who can correct my guesses here.
Given that this was an 8000 foot train, how long would it take from the initial dump of air until the last brake of the last car is applied? I'm trying to understand what difference ECP brakes could have made. My guess is there would still have been a pile of flaming wreckage, maybe smaller but basically the same impact on the town and the populace.
charlie hebdoAt the very least people along the ROW need to be warned in advance of movements of these materials. And those trains need to be treated as a special category.
Grab your ERG (Orange Book), or download the version for your phone or tablet, and sit alongside a busy mainline for a while. Bring a big notepad.
Balt pointed out earlier what happened when just one city tried the notification thing. IIRC, it lasted for a day.
CSX used to handle the "acid train" from St. Johns, Newfoundland through my area to somewhere. It was a regular feature on the line for a number of years. AFAIK, there was never an incident with this train, which was almost completely made up of hazmat.
Even the "Dow Death Train" in Michigan fared pretty well.
Like I said - these incidents are the outliers, not everyday occurrances.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
While the video is about world wide commerce - rails failings get mentioned within the first 5 minutes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZLX7Btuu6Y
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Balt - to get Preview
Select Share on YT and then "Embed" and then copy
Then in the message reply go to the code <> button and paste the code copied from YT
This also works with Google Maps
rdamonBalt - to get Preview Select Share on YT and then "Embed" and then copy Then in the message reply go to the code <> button and paste the code copied from YT This also works with Google Maps
Thanks - new trick for this old dog. Woof Woof
NS just blinked. They are going to tear out both main tracks one at a time and remove all of the underlying soil. Probably too little too late to save their corporate image, but a significant victory for the residents of East Palestine.
They just posted this update on their website: http://nscorp.mediaroom.com/2023-02-22-Norfolk-Southern-announces-East-Palestine-track-excavation-and-remediation-plan
I think that is a sign of things to come. This wreck seems to have an unusual amount of potential influence the railroad insdustry. Congress will be very busy reviewing new ideas to mandate.
ns145NS just blinked. They are going to tear out both main tracks one at a time and remove all of the underlying soil. Probably too little too late to save their corporate image, but a significant victory for the residents of East Palestine. They just posted this update on their website: http://nscorp.mediaroom.com/2023-02-22-Norfolk-Southern-announces-East-Palestine-track-excavation-and-remediation-plan
Saw a couple of clips of the NS President responding to questions. A vacant head dressed in a suit!
I am skeptical that PSR is the direct cause of this accident. What is for certain, however, is that by adopting PSR the Class I's have completely exhausted any good will that they had with the government, customers, employees, interest groups, and the general public. Matt Rose warned them, but nobody wanted to listen.
BaltACD ns145 NS just blinked. They are going to tear out both main tracks one at a time and remove all of the underlying soil. Probably too little too late to save their corporate image, but a significant victory for the residents of East Palestine. They just posted this update on their website: http://nscorp.mediaroom.com/2023-02-22-Norfolk-Southern-announces-East-Palestine-track-excavation-and-remediation-plan Saw a couple of clips of the NS President responding to questions. A vacant head dressed in a suit!
ns145 NS just blinked. They are going to tear out both main tracks one at a time and remove all of the underlying soil. Probably too little too late to save their corporate image, but a significant victory for the residents of East Palestine. They just posted this update on their website: http://nscorp.mediaroom.com/2023-02-22-Norfolk-Southern-announces-East-Palestine-track-excavation-and-remediation-plan
If he's not careful, he's gonna get "Jim Foote'd" up out of there.
I'm watching the CNN thing too and, while I do understand the frustrations and anger by people, there's a lot...I don't know how to not sound callous... Oscillating between asking answerless questions and irrelevant questions.
NS will have to work fast in removing soil to catch up with the chemicals as they settle deeper and deeper; and also spread out laterally.
ns145I am skeptical that PSR is the direct cause of this accident.
It would be very hard to draw a direct line between the two.
On the other hand, we've already discussed some factors that may have played a part (reduced maintenance forces, for one) that can be traced back to the principles of PSR.
We can hope that some line of cause and effect can be drawn which may lead to some method of blunting PSR. That action, however, will occur far from the front lines of railroading.
tree68 ns145 I am skeptical that PSR is the direct cause of this accident. It would be very hard to draw a direct line between the two. On the other hand, we've already discussed some factors that may have played a part (reduced maintenance forces, for one) that can be traced back to the principles of PSR. We can hope that some line of cause and effect can be drawn which may lead to some method of blunting PSR. That action, however, will occur far from the front lines of railroading.
ns145 I am skeptical that PSR is the direct cause of this accident.
The lines are starting to shift. Look at how many Class I's have negoitiated paid sick days with their unions. The optics that came out of last year's near strike were absolutely devasting for railroad corporate types. Look at how CSX's new CEO has cleaned up Jim Foote's mess with Amtrak's Gulf Coast service. And now East Palestine. This incident will resonate for decades to come. The general public may be ignorant of the intricacies of modern railroading, but they understand this - their city or town could easily be the next East Palestine. They are unwilling to accept that level of risk. The politicians see that and know that something must be done. Hopefully the NTSB and some real data and engineering can get inserted into the political process.
ns145The lines are starting to shift.
Indeed. If, f'rinstance, it comes out that the railroad lacks enough people to do proper maintenance (hypothetical point, although we know there's some truth to it), the railroads better hope they can spin it enough to deflect blame. And we can only hope that said blame will be deflected onto the folks in the background pushing PSR.
As has been suggested, this is how you get more regulation. If the railroads don't fix it, Congress will.
Convicted OneI interpret the finger pointing at "PSR " as recognizing the corporate culture where operating ratio trumps operational best practices. That sort of thing.
BEAUSABRE Prove that it does
Whelp, the unions are starting to lean that way...
Preliminary NTSB Report
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Documents/RRD23MR005%20East%20Palestine%20OH%20Prelim.pdf?fbclid=IwAR32DHLAjqacuNtaabYznHEuK85sIYMsxTs2tv1cwMBWjyVRjBAgXU_R2b8
How much of that maintenance is contracted out to other companies? I suspect a lot of it is (it always has been that way-even in the RR building days)
The problem is that it would take several truck shipments to equal the shipment of one tank car with hazmat. Which means more chances for accidents and spills.
What makes an item "hazmat" is the quantity, not necessarily the toxicity. A bottle of whiskey is not considered hazardous (depending on how much you drink of it)..a tank car load of the same whiskey is hazmat because of the flammability.
Shadow the Cats owner <SNIP> What the bigger problem is with this derailment was the NS not catching the car that caused the problem 20 miles away on fire. <SNIP>
<SNIP> What the bigger problem is with this derailment was the NS not catching the car that caused the problem 20 miles away on fire. <SNIP>
One thought I had: although we know that there was a problem 20 miles away since it just happened to get caught on a non-railroad security camera, is it not possible that this thing had been going on much longer? Perhaps even 30 or 40 miles or even further?
Another thought I was wondering about, did the axle finally fatique and just break? Or did the journal lock up and the wheel was sliding along the rail. That would surely explain all the fireworks caught on the security camera.
Perhaps it was even a combination of a super flat wheel and a broken axle.
Could there be somewhat of a similarity here between this wreck and the devastating wreck of Amtrak's City of New Orleans on the IC back in 1971?
In that case it was a passenger train that was involved. Pretty bad. I think there was at least one body that was never identified. In that case the train went on and on and even made at least one station stop and this was not caught until the whole thing piled up at 90MPH or better. What a tragedy. But I'm not sure that there were so many "knee jerk" responses back then.
You didn't have 24/7 news coverage or the internet back in 1971 so"knee-jerk" responses existed but they weren't nearly as numerous.
Fred M CainOne thought I had: although we know that there was a problem 20 miles away since it just happened to get caught on a non-railroad security camera, is it not possible that this thing had been going on much longer? Perhaps even 30 or 40 miles or even further?
The interim report says the train passed three defect detectors prior to the wreck, with each reporting a higher axle temperature.
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