azrail The problem is with the investment funds like Black Rock and The Children's Fund-they need to be restricted into how much of a company they can own.
The problem is with the investment funds like Black Rock and The Children's Fund-they need to be restricted into how much of a company they can own.
They often don't own a controlling amount of stock, They may not even be the biggest single stock holder.
They exert control by getting other investors who hold large shares of stock to agree to their gaining control of the board by promising better returns.
Jeff
azrailThe railroads are (and have always been) a 24/7 business. How many more Rentzenberger vans are you going to have to hire to have 9-5 jobs? How high do you raise your shipping rates without losing your shippers to pay for van rentals and 9/5 jobs? And if your customer can't get his shipment on time-he goes to another mode who will.
Nobody is naive enough to think we're going 9-5. But it's pretty pathetic when most people will tell you they held better jobs 5 years ago than today.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Flintlock76 SD60MAC9500 They don't want to work their lives away... It's really that simple. I can't blame them to be honest.. I can't really blame them either. I worked my butt off for 40+ years, so now I play. I remember my sister-in-law and her husband working for a company back in the 80's who shall remain nameless. Since they were white-collar salaried employees said employer ran them (and others) into the ground with 10, 12, 14 hour workdays. When they got home all they could do was have a quick meal and then collapse into bed. Then the next day it started all over and damn it, it wasn't right. It sure taught me not to think the grass was greener on the other side of the fence. I had the lesson re-enforced at quite a few other places over the years. I thought all that ended with the "Career-crazed Yuppie 1980's" but apparantly it hasn't, not in some quarters.
SD60MAC9500
They don't want to work their lives away... It's really that simple. I can't blame them to be honest..
I can't really blame them either. I worked my butt off for 40+ years, so now I play.
I remember my sister-in-law and her husband working for a company back in the 80's who shall remain nameless. Since they were white-collar salaried employees said employer ran them (and others) into the ground with 10, 12, 14 hour workdays. When they got home all they could do was have a quick meal and then collapse into bed. Then the next day it started all over and damn it, it wasn't right. It sure taught me not to think the grass was greener on the other side of the fence. I had the lesson re-enforced at quite a few other places over the years.
I thought all that ended with the "Career-crazed Yuppie 1980's" but apparantly it hasn't, not in some quarters.
I retired in 2002 from the OTR Trucking Industry.
After a little over 25 years...Recently, acquaintances have noted to me that those still working (Regular woork week hours,etc... seem to hear the old refrain...."...need to keep up, that e-mail stream... "
Being told ,"... it only takes a short time in the evening ! (?)...".
{ The same thing falls under to old saying" don't pea down my leg, and tell me it's rainin'..." )
The "Hammer" seems to be held over their heads... Job Performance, Corporate Loyalty, etc. any that that 'gives' supervisory level 'peope' that 'edge' on their work force...It's the 'game'... old as time.
When it comes to employment in the 21st Century - it only works one way. That way is not in favor of the employees.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I remember when it was not legal for a semi to operate on Wisconsin roads on sundays. And our church did not hold services on sundays during August. Simpler times.
SD60MAC9500 Euclid If railroads need workers, they must raise the pay. If they raise it high enough, they will get all the workers they need. And they will be paying them what they are worth. Trucking companies will have to raise their driver pay too. These pay raises for truckers and railroaders will have to be paid for by the shipping revenue. If it turns out that railroads cannot hire labor at a low enough cost to make a profit, then they will go out of business. Also, if railroads don’t want to raise their pay high enough to attract labor, they can start improving their working conditions, and couple that with a more modest pay increase in order to attract labor. Euclid, You seem to be having a disconnect with Millennials, and Gen Z .. They don't make pay their top priority generally speaking.. They want a balance of a healthy work environment, and personal time. They don't want to work their lives away... It's really that simple. I can't blame them to be honest..
Euclid If railroads need workers, they must raise the pay. If they raise it high enough, they will get all the workers they need. And they will be paying them what they are worth. Trucking companies will have to raise their driver pay too. These pay raises for truckers and railroaders will have to be paid for by the shipping revenue. If it turns out that railroads cannot hire labor at a low enough cost to make a profit, then they will go out of business. Also, if railroads don’t want to raise their pay high enough to attract labor, they can start improving their working conditions, and couple that with a more modest pay increase in order to attract labor.
Euclid,
You seem to be having a disconnect with Millennials, and Gen Z .. They don't make pay their top priority generally speaking.. They want a balance of a healthy work environment, and personal time. They don't want to work their lives away... It's really that simple. I can't blame them to be honest..
This would be the right time to read, or reread, Tom Brokaw's book The Greatest Generation. We have been too spoiled with free money and benefits for no work.
BaltACD n012944 Euclid I have been told that railroaders are not concerned about the pay, but only concerned about the bad working conditions. Different crafts have different concerns. I have not heard anyone from my craft complain about working conditions. Pay and cost of insurance are the main issues raised. Cost of Health Insurance or Job Insurance?
n012944 Euclid I have been told that railroaders are not concerned about the pay, but only concerned about the bad working conditions. Different crafts have different concerns. I have not heard anyone from my craft complain about working conditions. Pay and cost of insurance are the main issues raised.
Euclid I have been told that railroaders are not concerned about the pay, but only concerned about the bad working conditions.
Cost of Health Insurance or Job Insurance?
Health, as the company has no say in the cost of job insurance. Since I have had the same job insurance policy for almost 20 years, and the cost has not changed, I don't think it is an issue.
An "expensive model collector"
EuclidAlso, build in the stipulation that you are willing to give up some pay in exchange for these improvements in working conditions.
Management notwithstanding, I don't believe most Class 1 railroaders are salaried (I'll gladly stand corrected), being paid only for time worked.
Thus any measure that reduces time worked (and thus increases time off) amounts to a cut in pay.
And therein lies a conundrum.
As for relative value - how do you place a dollar value on attending your kid's baseball game (and witnessing her first home run), or birthday, or First Communion, your wedding anniversary, or any of a host of other life events?
This is where draconian attendance rules and the lack of depth in available manpower come home to roost.
If you want to improve working conditions, this is where you need to start. Have enough employees available so Joe can go to his kid's champtionship football game without facing a penalty.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
EuclidThis would have to start with someone making a list of every change in working conditions needed to satisfy the employees. It would have to be what you might call “within reason,” but it would just be a starting point that could be negotiated. It would have to be a compromise between the two parties.
They exist. They're called Section 6 notices.
tree68 Euclid Also, build in the stipulation that you are willing to give up some pay in exchange for these improvements in working conditions. After a fashion, the railroaders would give up pay for better conditions already. Management notwithstanding, I don't believe most Class 1 railroaders are salaried (I'll gladly stand corrected), being paid only for time worked. Thus any measure that reduces time worked (and thus increases time off) amounts to a cut in pay. And therein lies a conundrum. As for relative value - how do you place a dollar value on attending your kid's baseball game (and witnessing her first home run), or birthday, or First Communion, your wedding anniversary, or any of a host of other life events? This is where draconian attendance rules and the lack of depth in available manpower come home to roost. If you want to improve working conditions, this is where you need to start. Have enough employees available so Joe can go to his kid's champtionship football game without facing a penalty.
Euclid Also, build in the stipulation that you are willing to give up some pay in exchange for these improvements in working conditions.
After a fashion, the railroaders would give up pay for better conditions already.
diningcar This would be the right time to read, or reread, Tom Brokaw's book The Greatest Generation. We have been too spoiled with free money and benefits for no work.
BackshopThat's why they fought for unions, OSHA, EPA, etc. Add Quote to your Post
The Greatest Generation concept has no distinction for or against unions. Currently people with "free money and health benefits" provided in the last two years and so some are willing not to work as a result.
My sense is that the majority of railroaders would give up some pay in return for more regular, predictable schedules, and enough time off to lead a semi balanced life.
in law there's the concept of What would a reasonable person deem to be X. I don't think most non-railroaders would deem current RR attendance policies to be fair.
People deserve to have some balance in their lives, and having to wait 10-20 years is not reasonable.
Still in training.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2022/07/15/president-biden-signs-executive-order-creating-a-presidential-emergency-board/?fbclid=IwAR1oJUnjl9wOv4JBMxGrOIzZzQUzfDml-eflI5KNIkXxvHI9Oq2ecj8OwOM
For those keeping score at home.
diningcar Backshop That's why they fought for unions, OSHA, EPA, etc. Add Quote to your Post The Greatest Generation concept has no distinction for or against unions. Currently people with "free money and health benefits" provided in the last two years and so some are willing not to work as a result.
Backshop That's why they fought for unions, OSHA, EPA, etc. Add Quote to your Post
2. Any stimulus money is long gone. Nobody can live on that amount of money for long.
Unions created the 'middle class'. Employees compensated with both money time conditions that allowed those employees to have a life. Being able to own a home and enough 'free time' to be able to have a family and interact with those family members and all the trials and travails that happen in families.
What BNSF (and other carriers) is doing with their Hi-Viz attenance policy is to 'claw back' the time employees had for family life.
Carriers while they have negotiated Vacation and Personal Leave provisions in the various craft contracts tend to do everything they can to prevent employees from using those benefits to the employees advantage.
While in college, I co-oped with the PRR. ,When graduating I was offered a starting a starting position as a Signal & Communications Assistant Supervisor by the RR. My dad had worked for the MOPAC as a chief Clerk and had been moved from Indianapolis to Chicago to Milwaukee to Cincinnati. When they told him about four years after that move, He said no, and stayed in Cincinnati for the rest of his life. He had two sons in school and didn't want to uproot them. I had observed the supervisors, assistant supervisors and other people I was working with being relocated and working very irregular hours, I chose to NOT accept the PRR's job offer. Also, the "salary" they offered was less than what I was offered by most other positions I was offered.
I can feel the pain the BNSF crews are experiencing and think the upper executives have no concept of what their people have done for them, they see them as a serf to push to do more than is reasonable. Just as they want to overload a locomotive until it stalls or burns out.
Generally, most of the trainmen (Conductors, Brakemen, and Switchmen) have guaranteed boards. Some of the guarantees are for the pay half, the other for the month. If you don't make guarantee, the railroad pays the difference. However, there are things that can take away part or all of the guarantee.
Some engineer's boards (extra, yard and locals) have a guarantee, again some by the half month the other the full month. Road thru freight boards don't have a guarantee. (Local agreements may be in effect that are different than the above for both train and enginemen.) In not having a guarantee, the union local chairman is supposed to control the manning of the road boards. There is a formula to regulate the boards as to adding or removing turns on the boards.
Some jobs have days off. Usually locals and yard jobs. The road and extra boards don't. We had a pilot program about 20 years ago for days off on the extra boards. When implemented, there was no offset for the extra board guarantees. We worked 7 on and 3 off. The days off rotated, and if you worked into your first off day, the 72 hours was extended so you got the full time off. It was that guarantee wasn't modified because of the time off that killed it. Most large terminals that had mostly road vacancies to protect were OK. The extra board worked over guarantee even with the time off. It was the small terminals that either had a few people on the extra board or where the extra board protected a lot of yard jobs. You could work mutiple yard jobs and with the time off, not break guarantee. The paying of guarantee at those terminals is what killed it.
If we had rest days, on both pool and extra boards, the draconian policies might make some sense. You would have an idea when you would be off for appointments, etc. You could schedule some life beyond work. Less reason to take time off between days off, although life's pitfalls don't follow a schedule.
We do have personal leave days, instead of holiday pay, for road and extra board crews. (Currently there are 11 PL days possible. You don't get all 11 at first, it takes time to build to the full 11.) Some places allow us to convert vacation weeks to be used as single days. The problem is, the company must approve the use of PL or single days. The reason of course, is manpower issues. In response to the outcry of their Hi-Viz policy, the BNSF gave their people a few more PL days to use. What good is it to have those days if you aren't allowed to use them?
One more thing about our guaranteed boards. If they are off uncompensated for more than 48 hours within the pay half, they lose the entire guarantee for the half. The uncompensated time off includes time off required because of the RSIA Federal Requirement for working 6/7 consecutive jobs without a period 24 hours off between them. Usually if you're working to enough to get the Federal Rest, you should break guarantee anyway. However, it can be feast or famine, even now. It's possible to work like gang busters and then everything come to a halt. You could work the 6/7 days on one half and then have to lose 2 or 3 days on the next. It could be enough to wipe out the guarantee on a half where things have slowed way down.
Well said, Jeff, Backshop, B&O, Electroliner, Zug, et al. Unions and one political philosophy helped this great nation have an increasingly larger middle class. Too bad it's been eroding since 1981.
If you want to see the final offers from both the National Carrier's Conference (the railroads) and the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers and Trainmen, go to this link.
National Contract Negotiations | Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers and Trainmen (ble-t.org)
I won't claim my experience is typical, but it is a real-world case study that may give some insight. I have changed jobs twice in the last six months. About 18 months ago my office was moved from one building to another; my new workspace was close to 1/4 mile and a 40-foot climb from the only available parking, and we went from individual offices for everyone to the non-supervisors sharing small offices or being crammed into small cubicles almost on top of one another. For several years we had been paid less than employees in the same specialty at other agencies in town. I found a job that offered an instant 15% pay increase, my own (small, but my own) office, and parking near the building where I worked. Before leaving, I told the managers at the old job what the pay and conditions were at the new job, and why I was going to leave. I also told them the reason I wanted to leave was 60% pay and 40% office situation and distant parking.
A month after starting the new job, my old boss called and asked if I would consider coming back for another 15% pay raise over what I was making at the new job, which about matched the going rate in town for my specialty. The new pay at the old job would be about a 15% premium over the going rate in town. I thought it over and accepted the offer. Sharing an office and making a long hike morning and evening still isn't ideal, but for a 15% premium over the going rate in town it's tolerable. I only plan to work another five years (I'm 65 now) before retiring, so it won't be forever.
My boss got bought out about a year ago. The new owner at first could not figure out my job wondering why I was so popular with the drivers. Then he sat beside me for a week and realized just what I did. He also wondered why since he bought us out his own carriers turnover rate dropped 40% in the same timeframe. It was because they had someone that had their back and would listen to their complaints and could forward them to mangement in a way they took notice of them. Things like if the shop was refusing to fix something or if they needed to get home in a hurry and operations was not wanting to get them home. However where I make the biggest help is just being there to listen to complaints and then go lets see what we in the office can do to make your job better. He never realized that just having one person that took care of his drivers issues wheter they where in the home or on the road meant so much for the drivers. The new guy is learning that 1 I take no BS from anyone in his company. 2 in terms of who comes first it is the Drivers then their families then company issues. We had a driver whose wife had a miscarriage. Operations did not want him to fly home from Dallas. Not only did I override them had him on the next plane back to Midway but his replacement driver was on the flight down to get his truck and bring it home. Let's just say the dispatcher that refused to get him home was fired even though he had been with the new parent company for 28 years. Boss realized that in my contract I had with the old boss it states if a dispatcher refuses to do something in an emergency that could cause a driver reason to take legal action I have the power to terminate that dispatcher or whomever else refuses. There was a clause he put in there that stated even if we merged with another carrier as long as I am employed by my old carrier or the new one until my contract was redone. New boss liked that clause and kept it in my new one along with a 25% pay bump. Why instead of 250 drivers I now have about 450 drivers to keep happy.
If you run a business and no one is happy then you're doing something wrong. If run a business and everyone is happy you're doing something wrong too (not that that ever happens).. It's a very fine line..
The larger progressive companies do exit interviews to determine why people leave. At the end of each quarter they collate the data and report the results to senior management. This approach doesn't work so well for smaller businesses as it is statistically based.. and if the numbers are too small they become meaningless in terms of identifying trends.. i.e. a company with five employees has two quits.. one guy turned 80 and decided to retire and the other won the lottery.. clearly the retention numbers took a beating, but none of it was really the employer's fault, and the quits thus don't point to any trend requiring corrective action. Given how large the class 1 railroads are, they must have some pretty good data to identify trends.. they have a good handle on what's not working for them and where they need to improve. The data base is also big enough to allow employers to discard quits that aren't the employers' fault and to hone in on quits that are attributable to the employers' actions. If quits rise sharply directly after a new attendance policy is implemented, for example, then it shouldn't require Sherlock Holmes to conclude that the policy should be amended or discarded.
Ulrich The larger progressive companies do exit interviews to determine why people leave. At the end of each quarter they collate the data and report the results to senior management.
The larger progressive companies do exit interviews to determine why people leave. At the end of each quarter they collate the data and report the results to senior management.
CN does exit interviews when conductors or engineers quit, well, if the now former employee will do it (some guys just quit on the spot and literally walk out). Most everyone says something about how bad the management attitude and 'schedule' is.
If our upper management ever sees the true data from these interviews, they are ignoring it.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
SD70DudeIf our upper management ever sees the true data from these interviews, they are ignoring it.
Who? Me?
Shadow, I love what you post. My employer had reasonable personnel policies that I appreciated. Some companies would not treat an animal as they treat their employees.
Electroliner 1935Some companies would not treat an animal as they treat their employees.
You had to go out and buy a mule. Wokers would show up at the front door.
Electroliner 1935Shadow, I love what you post. My employer had reasonable personnel policies that I appreciated. Some companies would not treat an animal as they treat their employees.
And remember, in the railroads, as bad as they treat Contract employees, that is about 10 times better than they treat their first level non-contract supervision (Asst. Trainmasters, Trainmasters, Roadmasters, General Car Dept. Foremen etc). Contract employees have SOME protection in their union contracts and the federal Hours of Service laws, first level supervision doesn't.
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