BEAUSABREHow many railfans journeyed to see Muskingum Electric o
Things like bird strikes and off-course private planes notwithstanding, aircraft don't have to worry about errant lane changers, potholes, lane closures (as already discussed) and other such anomolies.
When GM built the circular track at their Michigan Proving Grounds back in the 1960's, they included in one lane a wire down the center of the lane. In theory, a sensor below the front bumper would keep the car centered on the wire - like a slot car without the slot. That idea died a quiet death.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
UlrichAnd that's why I'm less bullish on the prospect of driverless vehicles than most are.
They can't even build a self-taxiing airliner and that isn't even a complex system. The pill robot at the hospital is already doing that. If they can't make a multi-million dollar robot (an airliner is already a robot) follow a simple set of lines in an ultra-controlled system, I'm super-duper skeptical we're getting anything more sophisicated than lane monitoring, distance keeping, and speed control out of motor vehicles any time soon.
Also: aviation has been doing the "the robot drives and the human is there to do things when the robot can't handle the exceptions" thing for 30+ years now. I don't understand why people see this as such an exotic concept for a road vehicle that is capable of automated lane position, following distance, brake application, and speed control. Turned out the robot is way better than humans at the flying game too.
zugmann Sounds like a great plan to serve local customers created by someone that never had the job of serving local customers. Be nice if everything was as easy as (1) take train to track next to customer. (2) Let customer unload train in very timely manner. (3) Go home super fast afterwards. Wouldn't even need to automate that.
Sounds like a great plan to serve local customers created by someone that never had the job of serving local customers.
Be nice if everything was as easy as (1) take train to track next to customer. (2) Let customer unload train in very timely manner. (3) Go home super fast afterwards. Wouldn't even need to automate that.
Sounds like you're letting reality interfere with technology.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Euclid Ulrich People tend to confuse autonomous with driverless...the two are not the same. Can you please define those terms? I thought the term Autonomous means nobody driving and nobody onboard for backup. So the vehicle is completely self-driving according to a designated route, and vehicle senses and properly responds to everything of any significance within the field of the route way. I do know that there is significant difference between Tesla's term Autopilot, and their term Autonomous, which Elon says is fully self-driving. Autopilot does allow drivers to take a nap while cruising down a freeway, although it is strictly forbidden and is considered to be unsafe due to some limitations. Nevertheless, it appears that drivers have so much admiration for their Tesla vehicles that they rationalize that they are fully capable of driving on their own, just as the basic marketing promises at some point in the future. I conclude that the Tesla term Autopilot is dangerously misleading.
Ulrich People tend to confuse autonomous with driverless...the two are not the same.
Autonomous in certain situations. We already have the technology to have a vehicle guide itself along a clear highway in good weather conditions. But autonomy falls off when conditions are not ideal and when the task to be performed becomes more complex. Almost anyone can guide a truck down a highway with almost no training; however, blindside backing that truck off of a busy street.. down a narrow alley.. along a path that isn't level... that's a whole different kettle of fish. And that's what's required every day of the week when delivering in just about any city anywhere in the world. And that's why I'm less bullish on the prospect of driverless vehicles than most are. Videos that show vehicles driving themselves along a quiet highway don't impress me that much.. an untrained 10 year old would have no trouble accomplishing the same task.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
BackshopPS-Who's going to hook up the air hoses, etc. I know the answer. It's always the same. Some poor, underpaid *** who should be happy that he has a job.
I don't know. Maybe some high school guy who wants a few dollars so he can take a girl out on a date?
It's not exactly a high skill task.
Or maybe a robot?
Convicted OneI'm not sure if I understand your intent with that.
I was referring less to law enforcement and more to all trucks having a consistent speed. If they are all running at the posted speed limit, and their speed sensing equipment is properly calibrated, then there should be no trucks passing other trucks on the open road - mechanical/power issues notwithstanding.
We've all been there. Truck A is doing 65 and Truck B passes it, doing 65.5. And takes ten minutes to complete said pass, while vehicles pile up behind them.
tree68Sensor issues notwithstanding
I'm not sure if I understand your intent with that. But here any excuse along the lines of "gee officer, my speedometer says I was only doing 50" will get you a speeding ticket PLUS a fix-a-ticket requiring you to furnish proof that a licenced repairshop has calibrated your speedometer.
Hope you are right about speed limit compliance being a "likely" imperative. I anticipate opportunists willing to try and tilt the playing field in their favor for the sake of "enterprise".
I saw the Muskingum but I just happened to be in the area. My mother was from the area so I stopped by on the way back to Detroit from Pittsburgh. But I'm not a conveyor belt fan, or a streetcar/interurban one, either.
PS-Who's going to hook up the air hoses, etc. I know the answer. It's always the same. Some poor, underpaid *** who should be happy that he has a job.
Ouch, I don't want to sound like a luddite or the die hard steam fans who declared railfanning dead when diesels took over or that I'm crying in my beer over the "good ole days" but....Almost totally divorced from humanity, this sounds about as interesting as watching a conveyor belt. How many "conveyor belt fans" are out there? (I guess we're about to learn). How many railfans journeyed to see Muskingum Electric or Navajo Mine Railroad?
Brandt says it can make 40 MPH on the rail.
Unless you're on a high speed, high density main line; "That'll Do."
Tractive effort with a 600 HP truck engine is 50,000 pounds.
OvermodThe problem is that many of the designs have limited speed capability in rail mode, both in the suspension and in the drive.
Given that some of those little used branch lines are already speed limited, the restrictions that may come with the vehicle could be of little consequence.
That said, being able to run a daily (or better) shuttle service, vs twice or so weekly service from the railroad would certainly be something some businesses could take advantage of.
Shadow the Cats owner The first place you may see automated trucks in regular service is more than likely going to be in yard service. Why there the trucks can be told go get this trailer and then put it in this door or remove this trailer and put it in a empty space for the next driver to get it.
The first place you may see automated trucks in regular service is more than likely going to be in yard service. Why there the trucks can be told go get this trailer and then put it in this door or remove this trailer and put it in a empty space for the next driver to get it.
Already happening. UPS is currently using autonoumous yard dogs in a few terminals in England.
You'll assuredly see something like Brandt Units in comparable use.
The problem is that many of the designs have limited speed capability in rail mode, both in the suspension and in the drive. This is not 'that' much of a drawback in present practice, but to be competitive with autonomous trucks I expect that both rapid mode changing and higher running speed would become significant in at least some respects.
What I'd really like to see is one of these set up for autonomous operation on the rail.
https://player.vimeo.com/video/75325768
Think of what you could do with it!
The New Jersey Turnpike attempted to 'automate' this at one point by (rather cleverly, I'm sure they thought) noting the time stamps for entry and exit and the nominal distance between and automatically having a ticket issued for the calculated 'overage'. I luckily never got one during the mercifully brief time it was active, but it caused an enormous outcry. My understanding was that it was overturned on a civil-rights ground related to the Fifth Amendment right about self-incrimination, as you had to present the ticket you received or pay the highest possible toll if you 'lost' it... and, you know, you'd have nothing to fear if you were law-abiding, etc. I have since read that the 'Constitutional' ground was the right to face and question one's accuser... difficult if it is a computer routine
If I recall correctly, the New York State Thruway tried this for a while, too; apparently at least one toll road in Florida still does it.
I believe a similar argument has applied regarding comparison of scanned license plates or transponder numbers in current tolling; it would certainly be a precedent.
Interestingly, the EZ-Pass system tracked if you sped through the converted toll lanes (45 or over) and 'enforcement' was cancellation of your privileges if you did it too often. And I believe there is a bill pending to use automatic ticketing for active construction-zone violations...
Convicted OneWell, you'd just have to assume that the decision to break the law was being made centrally.
Sensor issues notwithstanding, central control would likely mean that all of the autonomous trucks on the road (less those accelerating or slowing down) will be running the speed limit for that road, whatever it is.
As one who normally runs with "flow of traffic," I fear the day when even personal vehicles can be monitored remotely. I've already heard talk of toll roads (many of which now use transponders for tolls) using your times through the "toll gates" for speed enforcement.
Overmodi can't imagine any jurisdiction authorizing this for autonomous trucking, which could easily and fairly have overspeed enforced to only a couple of true mph over the posted limit, and even that little only for a nominal sustained time only a few seconds long. As points for CDL enforcement are no longer in play, expect gleeful local enforcement efforts with substantial "incentive" fees and charges.
Well, you'd just have to assume that the decision to break the law was being made centrally. No longer would the carriers have the freedom to hide behind the excuse that renegade employees have decided to speed on their own will.
Enforcement will have to target responsible decision makers.
There is a sort of unpleasant truth about large trucks: the best mileage is achieved by coming to a comparative crawl upgrade, then freewheeling to un governed high speed downhill. Needless to say, this is infuriating to drivers of four-wheelers on cruise control.
i can't imagine any jurisdiction authorizing this for autonomous trucking, which could easily and fairly have overspeed enforced to only a couple of true mph over the posted limit, and even that little only for a nominal sustained time only a few seconds long. As points for CDL enforcement are no longer in play, expect gleeful local enforcement efforts with substantial "incentive" fees and charges.
Likewise, on the issue of 'truck no-passing zones' very strict time limits to complete a pass can be more easily enforced if autonomous truck-to-truck communication enforces slowdown of the vehicle being overtaken, which for regen electric transmission poses far less difficulty than effective predictive downshifting (itself trivial on a well-controlled vehicle).
We can presume the existence of beacons and warnings for accidents in most conditions, including special signals or gestures for emergency guidance or means of marking or designating an emergency or ad hoc route for the vehicle to follow. A fun exercise is to implement this without creating a nifty back door or hack opportunity to hijack or wreck a truck... or use it to take out a crowd for perceived political revenge...
York1How about an accident that clogs an Interstate at night, and a state patrolman directs traffic into one or two lanes with his flashlight?
Or when we close a two-lane state highway completely as the result of an accident. If we close just one lane, we will be letting one direction through at a time. Normal drivers can make out who's directing the traffic (might be a firefighter with a flag) and follow those directions.
Will autonomous trucks be able to do the same?
Sometimes we send folks on a detour if the road will be closed for a while. If there's no one in the cab, who do we give directions to? Maybe there is a human - will they be able to reprogram the GPS with the new instructions?
I've wondered how these vehicles handle certain situations that are uncommon.
How about an accident that clogs an Interstate at night, and a state patrolman directs traffic into one or two lanes with his flashlight?
More common -- Interstate traffic having to merge into one lane for construction, but dealing with drivers who don't merge until the last second?
I can think of quite a few situations that I wonder how the computer handles things. Maybe they've already programmed all the possibilities, and there would be no problems.
York1 John
With autonomous vehicles, how are traffic infractions to be handled? Will the cops have a way to summons control of the console?
Perhaps my biggest gripe about trucking the way it always has been, is on highways without controlled access, the snail slow starts by the trucks at traffic signals coupled with their propensity to drive 10 mph above the speed limit, in between stops......so, once you get ahead of them, they end up creeping around you again by breaking the speed limit...and then there they are in front of you again at the very next traffic light.
If fully autonomous trucking will eliminate the "speeding past you, once again" aspect of trucks in traffic, then I am all for it.
In my opinion, the idea of having a human attendant onboard to take over if something goes wrong with the autonomous system is an admission that the autonomous system is not safe.
Beyond that, the human attendant is not a reliable solution to close the safety gap. It is unrealistic to think that a human attendant, riding only to watch over the magnificent and competent automatic driving system, will be ready or willing to take action to override the system if trouble with it should arise.
Instead, such attendants are likely to hesitate and freeze with indecision. The will worry that their override may be a mistake on their part because they will not expect that any reason for an override will occur. That is, after all, the marketing theme of the autonomous driving system.
Here is an excellent article that fully explains all of the designations of features such as fully autonomous, self-driving, auto pilot, etc.
Backshop Many trucking companies have trouble getting drivers now, due to low pay. It'll be even harder to get autonomous "babysitters" since you'll still be away from home, but the pay will be even lower.
Many trucking companies have trouble getting drivers now, due to low pay. It'll be even harder to get autonomous "babysitters" since you'll still be away from home, but the pay will be even lower.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
UlrichPeople tend to confuse autonomous with driverless...the two are not the same.
People tend to confuse autonomous with driverless...the two are not the same. Vehicles will likely become more autonomous with each passing year, but it will be quite a while I think before we see driverless vehicles on any large scale, apart perhaps from simple closed loop applications like an open pit mine. The driving job will continue to evolve..today's drivers nolonger need to be able to row a 13 speed gearbox..instead they need computer skills that were unheard of 20 years ago. Likely drivers in 20 years from now will require other skills that we aren't yet aware of.
I won't be losing any sleep on this thinking my job is in jeopardy for a while. How good is this AI about when the unexpected happens in traffic. Let alone the first time it happens to get involved in a crash.
Worst case here with how well Tesla cars tend to confuse a trailer with the sky it seems. Just imagine the mess that would be a Tesla on autopilot driver not paying attention ramming into this thing. The lawyers would have a field day on that one.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.