Autonomous Truck Success

[tree68]

There's always tethering your self-propelled mower so it winds itself up on a stake...

Of course, farmers are now using GPS when seeding, and other such functions.

[zugmann]

The church next to one of our feed mills has a couple robotic lawnmowers.  Always get a kick seeing them out and about at 3am running around. 

You were just ahead of your time. 

 

Kind of like how Swanson's was the original Ubereats. 

[Ulrich]

When I was a kid my dad, my brother, and I patented a self driving lawnmower. We had a prototype built, and it worked like a charm. That was 40 plus years ago. Unfortunately it wasn't commercially viable.. And so it is with alot of technology.. it may work somewhat (or very well) but if the economics don't make sense it goes nowhere. 

[Euclid]

Overmod

 

 

Euclid

All of the changes are on the locomotives.

 

 

Even if this were so -- and it is not -- it doesn't take a whit away from the point zug was making.  Assuming you actually read what he said, and understood it.

 

 

It is completely true in the original context I provided.

 

I read Zug's comment several times, and understand it just fine.  I thought about my reply and composed it off the forum and proof read it.  He made more than one point.  My main point was related to his comment about railcars getting beat up by customers at their loading/receiving facilities.  I thought that point carried over to his last sentence, so I did not include in the quote these middle sentences by Zug:

 

'cause that stuff is going to last more than 3 hours once it gets to an industry or shortline. 

 

I don't think most people have ever seen how many industries handle their cars. Hell hath no fury as a trackmobile, forklift, or front end loader..

 

My comment, "All of the changes are on the locomotives" was intended to mean in the context of his concern about railcars getting damaged by customers and thus imposing increased cost for autonomous running equipment because of its presence on railcars.  

 

The largest context was from the preceding comment that Zug was replying to, which included the idea that comprehensive sensors be added as part of an autonomous conversion.  So, because most of those sensors would be on the railcars, I assumed Zug was referring to those sensors being damaged by careless abuse of railcars by the shippers, as part of the cost of autonomous running.  

 

So I said: "All of the changes [for autonomous operation] are on the locomotives” [as opposed to the railcars].  My assumption about autonomous running is that it does not fundamentally include compressive sensors for railcars.  That is a separate agenda that is very popular just as autonomous running is.  

 

But other than my specific focus, my comment did not mean to exclude all of the changes required for autonomous running that would be needed for the entire system excluding railcars.  As I mentioned earlier, there will be more changes needed for autonomous running than just equipping locomotives for it.  I believe the greatest cost will be in the area of revising methods of operation and train composition that will be required (and enabled) by autonomous running. I believe this will be the greatest area of expense by far.   

 

Generally the still larger context/premise seems to be that the railroads cannot afford autonomous operation.   

[BaltACD]

Overmod

 

Euclid

All of the changes are on the locomotives. 

Even if this were so -- and it is not -- it doesn't take a whit away from the point zug was making.  Assuming you actually read what he said, and understood it.

Euc - you forget under PSR any maintenance is too much for the financial model.

[Overmod]

Euclid

All of the changes are on the locomotives.

Even if this were so -- and it is not -- it doesn't take a whit away from the point zug was making.  Assuming you actually read what he said, and understood it.

[Gramp]

Saw a Nova episode on Britain's Crossrail (Elizabeth Line) project. 13 years and 25 billion. Quite a segment on the software system problems encountered including autonomous movements. On Amazon Prime and PBS. 

[Euclid]

zugmann

 

 

rdamon

A full investment in automation should include an electric trainline with speed and temperature sensors on each axle, electric brakes.  Make the car individually addressable so the computer can lock out on any high temp or brake issue.  Another benefit is they can put some LED lights on the side to help with people driving into the train at a dark crossing.

 

To run anything udner any guise of automation, you are going to have to spend big money on maintaining stuff.  Not exactly the expert field of many companies anymore.   RR or not. 

Adding autonomous running will cost a lot of money, but it would not necessarily include that currently popular push for adding sensors to everything imaginable on the train.  It also does not have to include changing to ECP brakes.  All of the changes are on the locomotives.

[Gramp]

Isn't it really a case of trying to be too efficient?  Squeezing the last trace of what's possible out of people and equipment.  Why can't the goal be to be unquestionably reliable?

[zugmann]

rdamon

A full investment in automation should include an electric trainline with speed and temperature sensors on each axle, electric brakes.  Make the car individually addressable so the computer can lock out on any high temp or brake issue.  Another benefit is they can put some LED lights on the side to help with people driving into the train at a dark crossing.

'cause that stuff is going to last more than 3 hours once it gets to an industry or shortline. 

I don't think most people have ever seen how many industries handle their cars. Hell hath no fury as a trackmobile, forklift, or front end loader..

 

To run anything udner any guise of automation, you are going to have to spend big money on maintaining stuff.  Not exactly the expert field of many companies anymore.   RR or not. 

 

[Electroliner 1935]

BaltACD

Movement ultimately has accidents.  No matter, who, where, what or when.

Thats why many older folks wear DEPENDS. 

 

[Euclid]

Rail management is mostly enthusiastic about driverless freight trains.  Like the driverless car and truck movement, rail management promotes the automation as a means to increase safety.  The premise is that autonomous trains will not suffer from human error. 

 

The biggest obstacle to autonomous freight trains will be the Labor Unions because they oppose the loss of jobs that will result from driverless trains.  And aside from improving safety, the real reason management is on board with driverless trains is that they reduce labor.  It wasn’t hard to see this coming. 

[charlie hebdo]

tree68

 

 

charlie hebdo

Those responses to this are much akin to saying "s***" happens" aka let's not do anything because we have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo, i.e. saving jobs versus saving lives. 

 

 

Methinks it's more like discounting any claims that autonomous operation will be safer.  This incident likely would have occurred if there was a five person crew.  

Absent more defect detectors (one halfway between the others might have caught the problem), this was a failure that may not have been caught by better maintenance.  Many defects remain hidden, until they aren't.  

 

Discounting without any empirical evidence while this accident is vivid evidence of serious malfeasance in the whole system. The move to larger, much heavier railcars and monster trains generated more profits at the expense of more equipment and track failures.

 

[tree68]

charlie hebdo

Those responses to this are much akin to saying "s***" happens" aka let's not do anything because we have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo, i.e. saving jobs versus saving lives. 

Methinks it's more like discounting any claims that autonomous operation will be safer.  This incident likely would have occurred if there was a five person crew.  

Absent more defect detectors (one halfway between the others might have caught the problem), this was a failure that may not have been caught by better maintenance.  Many defects remain hidden, until they aren't.  

[rdamon]

A full investment in automation should include an electric trainline with speed and temperature sensors on each axle, electric brakes.  Make the car individually addressable so the computer can lock out on any high temp or brake issue. 

Another benefit is they can put some LED lights on the side to help with people driving into the train at a dark crossing.

[charlie hebdo]

Those responses to this are much akin to saying "s***" happens" aka let's not do anything because we have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo, i.e. saving jobs versus saving lives.  Same old stuff concerning crossings, equipment, accounting etc. Reminiscent of the worse tragedies in Decatur, eastern Canada, etc 

[Overmod]

CSSHEGEWISCH

charlie hebdo

The recent and serious NS derailment once again exposed the fallacy of superiority of human crews. Also shows rails to be dangerous neighbors to have.

And just how would autonomous operation have prevented this derailment?

Not the point he's trying to make.  The point is that you can't argue that autonomous operation would have been 'less safe' under the accident conditions.

[BaltACD]

Movement ultimately has accidents.  No matter, who, where, what or when.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

charlie hebdo

The recent and serious NS derailment once again exposed the fallacy of superiority of human crews. Also shows rails to be dangerous neighbors to have.

 

And just how would autonomous operation have prevented this derailment?

[York1]

Pipeline opponents continue to require us to move huge amounts of oil by rail.

[charlie hebdo]

The recent and serious NS derailment once again exposed the fallacy of superiority of human crews. Also shows rails to be dangerous neighbors to have.

[tree68]

Erik_Mag

My wife's car has a very nice camera for the "rearview mirroe" and backing up assistance. Even though it's facing backwards, it still require cleaning on a regular basis.

My daughter's car has a back-up camera (seems to be a regular feature these days) as well as obstacle sensing - and she still managed to clip my truck (parked in her driveway) while backing out of her garage.

No damage to my truck, and minimal damage to her bumper.  

I would imagine that the bird poop incident is making some designers look at the design to see if it can somehow be improved.

But remember the Pinto...

[Euclid]

Without interrupting service, railroad companies sometimes changed their gage.  They also equipped there entire fleets of rolling stock with automatic air brakes, replaced their link & pin couplers with automatic couplers, and replaced their entire steam locomotive rosters with diesels.  Double-heading of locomotives in the steam age was replaced by M.U. locomotives in the diesel age.  Now that has been supplemented by D.P.U. operation to further reduce manpower needed to move the freight traffic. 

 

So I doubt they will throw in the towel when faced with the challenge of bird poop. 

[BaltACD]

Erik_Mag

 

Shadow the Cats owner

Well one of those automonus trucks was taken offline by a bird. 

Why am I not surprised? Looks like the designer didn't think of various things that go splat on windshields. Which also implies that the people trying to design an autonomous truck need a lot more real world experience. Pretty much the same thing goes for autonomous trains.

My wife's car has a very nice camera for the "rearview mirroe" and backing up assistance. Even though it's facing backwards, it still require cleaning on a regular basis.

Like anything else - the Devil is in the details and there are more details than can be thought of - until the detail hits.

[Erik_Mag]

Shadow the Cats owner

Well one of those automonus trucks was taken offline by a bird.

Why am I not surprised? Looks like the designer didn't think of various things that go splat on windshields. Which also implies that the people trying to design an autonomous truck need a lot more real world experience. Pretty much the same thing goes for autonomous trains.

My wife's car has a very nice camera for the "rearview mirroe" and backing up assistance. Even though it's facing backwards, it still require cleaning on a regular basis.

[Shadow the Cats owner]

Well one of those automonus trucks was taken offline by a bird.  The bird dropped off a present that hit the camera covering it with poop and the truck literally shutdown in the middle of the interstate and even the guy monitoring it inside couldn't get it to move.  

[rdamon]

I was suprised that PTC did not include some sort of overhead or between the rails beacon to identify track at CPs

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Whatever it is, it is going to cost BIG bucks, especially when you consider that something that will be this sensitive is going to have to hold up in a hostile environment. 

[Euclid]

I found the video I referred to above.

 

Look at this video starting at time 1:00

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a52ZSCIAoRk

 

It explains how the train location is known automatically to within a few centimeters.  It uses a fixed signal sent from the track every 25 meters of track length.  So the train detects this signal every 25 meters that it travels.  Then for finer sensing input, it counts wheel revolutions within the track length between the 25 meter signals. 

 

Now this is for transit, so maybe the track wire is considered cost effective, but using this wire for thousands of miles of mainline may be objectionable.  Or maybe not.