Backshop I'm surprised that some of the OTR trucking companies aren't listed--CR England, CRST and Swift, in particular.
I'm surprised that some of the OTR trucking companies aren't listed--CR England, CRST and Swift, in particular.
England and "Swifties" are generally known for being more "newbie friendly" and a bit more forgiving of (past) misadventures, and that counts for at least something with many drivers.
While there's never been a truck driver who didn't complain, experiened OTR drivers have been in such demand for so long that mobility isn't an issue. If your DS gives you an abnormal number of deliveries or pickups at locations known to burn up your earning hours waiting for a dock door, or keeps putting off your next home trip, you can turn the truck in and be working for another company in just a few days - with a sign-on bonus in some cases. If an OTR driver is really dissatisfied, they don't stick around.
While there's never been a truck driver who didn't complain, they still have a greater degreee of self-direction than most operating railroaders - even with e-logs.
I think that the reality on that is, they understand that some loss is inevitable. They just calculate the objective to be worth anticipated losses, and christen the casualties to be heroes.
Some hardass know their game and will try to get you killed anyway.. just for the heck of it.
Flintlock76 SD70Dude Isn't that called "fragging"? Uh-huh. Although typically "fragging" occurs as a means of self-preservation, that is, removing an incompetant leader before he gets you all killed. If the leader's competant, knows his business, and especially how to keep his people alive he doesn't have too much to worry about, even if he's a hard unlikeable SOB.
SD70Dude Isn't that called "fragging"?
Uh-huh.
Although typically "fragging" occurs as a means of self-preservation, that is, removing an incompetant leader before he gets you all killed. If the leader's competant, knows his business, and especially how to keep his people alive he doesn't have too much to worry about, even if he's a hard unlikeable SOB.
It becomes very evident, very quickly 'hard asses' that know their game and those that will get you killed.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
SD70DudeIsn't that called "fragging"?
BaltACDNot everybody is cut out for supervisory positions with a modicum of 'power'. The 'power' goes to their heads. Just because someone has superior technical skills in their area does not mean they have the ability to supervise their area.
The "Peter Principle" in a nutshell. Unfortunately, all too often they don't get put back where they should be, and continue to wreak havoc.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
BaltACD Shadows incident isn't unusual. In the military it sometimes results in 'friendly fire' incidents.
Shadows incident isn't unusual. In the military it sometimes results in 'friendly fire' incidents.
Isn't that called "fragging"?
You are correct that a lot of folks can't handle power and responsibility, in some cases the authoritaw goes to their head.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Shadow the Cats ownerYep pretty much SD70Dude you nailed it. We just demoted a foreman of our shop here back to a mechanic. Why well to say he doesn't have people skills is putting it mildly. He was threatening to write up our drivers for the smallest infraction they did let alone the people working under him. One mechanic who has been with us for 30 years walked into the owners office and said it's either me walking out or your going to need the sheriff and an ambulance here if I go back into the shop. The owner asked why. He was told that his most senior mechanic had just been suspended for 3 weeks without pay for failure to secure his tools in his box between jobs. That was the straw that caused the former foreman to be demoted that day. He also was thrown onto the night shift working overnights as the owner said until either Hell freezes over or we land a man on the sun.
Not everybody is cut out for supervisory positions with a modicum of 'power'. The 'power' goes to their heads. Just because someone has superior technical skills in their area does not mean they have the ability to supervise their area.
Yep pretty much SD70Dude you nailed it. We just demoted a foreman of our shop here back to a mechanic. Why well to say he doesn't have people skills is putting it mildly. He was threatening to write up our drivers for the smallest infraction they did let alone the people working under him. One mechanic who has been with us for 30 years walked into the owners office and said it's either me walking out or your going to need the sheriff and an ambulance here if I go back into the shop. The owner asked why. He was told that his most senior mechanic had just been suspended for 3 weeks without pay for failure to secure his tools in his box between jobs. That was the straw that caused the former foreman to be demoted that day. He also was thrown onto the night shift working overnights as the owner said until either Hell freezes over or we land a man on the sun.
Not a snowball's chance......
They'll just blame the employees for being too negative, and continue the beatings until morale improves.
Back to the original link, does anyone think that the management running the 3 railroads mentioned, if they were to read that article, would they think "oh dear, there is a problem we must work to correct"?
kenny dorhamI jumped down your throat a bit on that. My Fault I Apologize
Not any problem whatsoever, I enjoy a spirited debate.
I'm just glad that no innocent bystanders were harmed..
Convicted One kenny dorham You think 65k, for 2k hours per year, for a construction job is a "Bonanza".? Likely a discussion so far removed from the subject of trains, that if we pursued it in sufficient detail, we would only irritate people. But yeah, where I am, unskilled "grunt" labor is in the $25-30K range, with moderately skilled jobs paying in the $43-47K range. Which led me to suspect the figure Urich was using must include some.....upleasantry pay? Kenny, it seems like I recall discussion with you in an old "California High Speed Passenger Rail" thread, where we were talking about people working in San Francisco, but forced to live in the hinterlands of Bakersfield....was that you? Obviously for anyone expecting to both live and work in the immediate San Francisco bay area, yes I agree with you $65K would seem like a pittance.
kenny dorham You think 65k, for 2k hours per year, for a construction job is a "Bonanza".?
Likely a discussion so far removed from the subject of trains, that if we pursued it in sufficient detail, we would only irritate people. But yeah, where I am, unskilled "grunt" labor is in the $25-30K range, with moderately skilled jobs paying in the $43-47K range. Which led me to suspect the figure Urich was using must include some.....upleasantry pay?
Kenny, it seems like I recall discussion with you in an old "California High Speed Passenger Rail" thread, where we were talking about people working in San Francisco, but forced to live in the hinterlands of Bakersfield....was that you?
Obviously for anyone expecting to both live and work in the immediate San Francisco bay area, yes I agree with you $65K would seem like a pittance.
It sounds very familiar, and i Have-Do live in San Francisco and Sacramento.
And yeah, even though 65k is not a "Fortune"......you are 100% correct, it will certainly go further in some places than others.
The cost of Housing, Rent, Mortgage and Gasoline seem to be two of the BIGGEST financial concerns that can differ so widely from state to state.
I jumped down your throat a bit on that.
My Fault
I Apologize
One might opine that such is the reason industry in the US is on it's heels. As one pundit once said - people come out of college expecting to find a position, and end up with a job...
My earlier use of the word "bonanza" really had a sarcastic intent, although I can see now where I did not emphasize that aspect adequately, to make the point I had intended.
There are just some jobs out there that are so unpleasant, that the employers have just accepted that no one is going to choose to remain any longer than they absolutely must, before finding an alternative. Frequently those operations have to offer a sweetener, financially, to compensate for the unpleasantry. That was my wistful stab at "bonanza".
We've got one company in particular here locally, that their speciality is fabricating bar joists. Notorious for being an unpleasant place to work . If you are a senior welder, it not too bad a place to work, but the grunts really hate that place.
So, all the local assistance centers, the shelters, the unemployment office, the Urban League, anyplace where someone might go looking for a hand out, all have this place on their speed-dial for anyone needing "emergency" employment. They pay about $2/hr above minimum wage, and have about a 60-90 day turnover.
But, it evidently works for them, they seem to get an endless feed of fodder. People given little choice but to apply there, or else.
Ulrich Yes, I was "getting rich" pumping gas at the local Gulf in 79.. $3.25/hr..
Yes, I was "getting rich" pumping gas at the local Gulf in 79.. $3.25/hr..
I was getting even richer picking up garbage at $2.65/hr in 1978. We used to joke "minimum wage and all you can eat."
BaltACD Convicted One Ulrich but who knows, maybe I'm behind the times. We all have that vulnerability. When I was growing up, $15/hr seemed like a lot of money. Now it would put you just one click above poverty. (despite still looking like "a lot of money" to many small business owners who grew up in olden times) My first 'non-training rate' job on the railroad in 1965 paid $2.903 a hour and in relative terms - I was living 'high on the hog'. But 1965 is 56 years ago and the price of hogs has gone up, way up.
Convicted One Ulrich but who knows, maybe I'm behind the times. We all have that vulnerability. When I was growing up, $15/hr seemed like a lot of money. Now it would put you just one click above poverty. (despite still looking like "a lot of money" to many small business owners who grew up in olden times)
Ulrich but who knows, maybe I'm behind the times.
We all have that vulnerability. When I was growing up, $15/hr seemed like a lot of money. Now it would put you just one click above poverty. (despite still looking like "a lot of money" to many small business owners who grew up in olden times)
My first 'non-training rate' job on the railroad in 1965 paid $2.903 a hour and in relative terms - I was living 'high on the hog'. But 1965 is 56 years ago and the price of hogs has gone up, way up.
Convicted One but who knows, maybe I'm behind the times. We all have that vulnerability. When I was growing up, $15/hr seemed like a lot of money. Now it would put you just one click above poverty. (despite still looking like "a lot of money" to many small business owners who grew up in olden times)
but who knows, maybe I'm behind the times.
Same here.. once upon a time I served my country for $7.25/hr.. many moons ago.
Last year I met a retired railroader at one of my Bayview Junction outings. He told me that he started with Erie Lackwanna at $25/day..
Irritate people? That never happens does it? Likely it's a hard job all 'round for that pay. Most people I meet in my daily life don't make 65K.. but who knows, maybe I'm behind the times.
kenny dorhamYou think 65k, for 2k hours per year, for a construction job is a "Bonanza".?
Likely a discussion so far removed from the subject of trains, that if we pursued it in sufficient detail, we would only irritate people. But yeah, where I am, unskilled "grunt" labor is in the $25-30K range, with moderately skilled jobs paying in the $43-47K range. Which led me to suspect the figure Urich was using must include some.....unpleasantry pay?
[quote user="Ulrich"]
kenny dorham You think 65k, for 2k hours per year, for a construction job is a "Bonanza".? That is what a person needs, to make a living, at any job. That is what i made, the last year i worked, in 2006. It is not a lot of money.
You think 65k, for 2k hours per year, for a construction job is a "Bonanza".? That is what a person needs, to make a living, at any job.
That is what i made, the last year i worked, in 2006. It is not a lot of money.
I'm not sure who called 65K a "bonanza".. (not me) but if the job remains unfilled then I would agree that 65K likley isn't enough. That's often the issue when there are no takers..Mind you they're drawing from a fairly small labor pool.. Fergus is small.. and the number of locals who can do heavy manual labor is further limited. That same job offered in metro Toronto (a far more expensive market) would likely be filled quickly at 65K due to the large pool of hard scrabble immigrants available.
Ulrich Oh well.. the good thing about being surrounded by stupidity is that it doesn't take much to shine in that environment. In my first job as a dock hand back in 88 I really impressed the powers that be with my ability to calculate the volume of stuff.. (even round stuff like cylinders).. somehow I don't think I would have gotten the same compliments from a room of software engineers.
Oh well.. the good thing about being surrounded by stupidity is that it doesn't take much to shine in that environment. In my first job as a dock hand back in 88 I really impressed the powers that be with my ability to calculate the volume of stuff.. (even round stuff like cylinders).. somehow I don't think I would have gotten the same compliments from a room of software engineers.
I worked for a mining company in the early 1980's. The shipping manager at one of our potash sites in New Mexico could walk into an airplane hanger size warehouse, look at the pile and tell you within about 5-10 carloads how much the warehouse held. Being able to do this is a cross between "gift" and experience.CW
BaltACD Flintlock76 zugmann golden handcuffs I can understand what Zug's talking about because in a way it happened to me. Too many years on the job and too much invested to just walk away. When I started doing copier repair it was a fun job with fun people. It was the first job I had in a long, long time where when the alarm clock went off in the morning I didn't greet the day with an obscenity. But, the last ten years the petty annoyances and the corporate BS began and the irritation level started going up and up. I had too much time in to just walk away and so did many of my collegues, it was "grin and bear it" until retirement time. Then I walked away and didn't look back. One other thing is involved as we age in our jobs and in a particular industry. For the most part we were young and dumb and we acknowledge those things to ourselves and look to the leadership of the job to gain knowledge about the job and about the industry. As we gain time and knowledge within the job and the industry we begin to question things that we are being instructed and/or ordered to do based on our own real world learned experiences on the job in the present day. We also find that those instructions or orders are not matching our perception of the real needs of the job as our personal experience gained over our employment history is indicating to us. The more 'disconnected' orders that we have to deal with that conflict with our real world experiences the more disgruntled of a employee we become; especially when we see today's leadership being younger and dumber than we were when we hired out.
Flintlock76 zugmann golden handcuffs I can understand what Zug's talking about because in a way it happened to me. Too many years on the job and too much invested to just walk away. When I started doing copier repair it was a fun job with fun people. It was the first job I had in a long, long time where when the alarm clock went off in the morning I didn't greet the day with an obscenity. But, the last ten years the petty annoyances and the corporate BS began and the irritation level started going up and up. I had too much time in to just walk away and so did many of my collegues, it was "grin and bear it" until retirement time. Then I walked away and didn't look back.
zugmann golden handcuffs
I can understand what Zug's talking about because in a way it happened to me. Too many years on the job and too much invested to just walk away.
When I started doing copier repair it was a fun job with fun people. It was the first job I had in a long, long time where when the alarm clock went off in the morning I didn't greet the day with an obscenity.
But, the last ten years the petty annoyances and the corporate BS began and the irritation level started going up and up. I had too much time in to just walk away and so did many of my collegues, it was "grin and bear it" until retirement time. Then I walked away and didn't look back.
One other thing is involved as we age in our jobs and in a particular industry.
For the most part we were young and dumb and we acknowledge those things to ourselves and look to the leadership of the job to gain knowledge about the job and about the industry. As we gain time and knowledge within the job and the industry we begin to question things that we are being instructed and/or ordered to do based on our own real world learned experiences on the job in the present day. We also find that those instructions or orders are not matching our perception of the real needs of the job as our personal experience gained over our employment history is indicating to us. The more 'disconnected' orders that we have to deal with that conflict with our real world experiences the more disgruntled of a employee we become; especially when we see today's leadership being younger and dumber than we were when we hired out.
Balt and Flintlock have pretty accurately summarized how I felt toward the end of my career.
I worked in logistics for 40 years and thoroughly enjoyed every minute of it till the last 3. The company - in their infinite wisdom - shipped a 27 year old Dutch MBA over here to direct our logistics function. He had never worked a day interacting with railroads or trucking companies, had zero understanding of service and rate issues and, was completely unwilling to learn. He came in "knowing" how he wanted to do things and would refuse to listen to anything we told him. Dealing with this guy was so frustrating there were many days I thought my head would explode. I firmly believe the 3 years I dealt with him took 12 years off my life.
When the company offered me a generous buyout package in 2019 it was as if three years of prayer had suddenly been answered.
I suspect the majority of us reach a point in our careers where dealing with stupid simply becomes intolerable.
CW
Ulrich the problem is Swift has been doing crap like this and worse for more than 30 years to their drivers and the entire industry. Swift literally lost their training school in Memphis for bribing license examination officials to give out CDLs in 2008. Over 5000 drivers had their CDLs suspended until they took a retest.
Balt, I had a way to deal with some of those foolish orders or requests verbally transmitted. I would write a reply confirming that I was going to 'obey' so that there was a written record. And especially, when appropriate, give copies to others, perhaps to the boss of the person who gave the order.
Shadow the Cats owner Ulrich most of the more experienced drivers leave the mega boy's as fast as humanly possible. They tend to find smaller carriers were drivers are treated like well human beings to start. I'm still in shock when we get a new driver in and he meets the owner of the company and on his contact list he is given is 2 different numbers one is the boss man's direct office line the other is his cellphone. They're also given their dispatchers company issued cellphone number for emergency needs. Just last week I had to play flight coordinator for a driver. His wife was involved in an accident at her job and put in the hospital. We flew him home to be with his family instead of being on the road and sent a replacement driver out to get his truck back to the yard. This man was one of our owner operators and we would have done the same thing for a company driver. We just hired a ex Swift driver that was fired while on hometime why Swift lost his dedicated contract and decided he didn't need to drive for them anymore. Then they tried to say he abandoned his truck at an unapproved location. His truck was parked at the old dedicated starting point. You gotta love the mega carriers.
Ulrich most of the more experienced drivers leave the mega boy's as fast as humanly possible. They tend to find smaller carriers were drivers are treated like well human beings to start. I'm still in shock when we get a new driver in and he meets the owner of the company and on his contact list he is given is 2 different numbers one is the boss man's direct office line the other is his cellphone. They're also given their dispatchers company issued cellphone number for emergency needs. Just last week I had to play flight coordinator for a driver. His wife was involved in an accident at her job and put in the hospital. We flew him home to be with his family instead of being on the road and sent a replacement driver out to get his truck back to the yard. This man was one of our owner operators and we would have done the same thing for a company driver. We just hired a ex Swift driver that was fired while on hometime why Swift lost his dedicated contract and decided he didn't need to drive for them anymore. Then they tried to say he abandoned his truck at an unapproved location. His truck was parked at the old dedicated starting point. You gotta love the mega carriers.
To be fair though (to use Swift as an example).. they run 16 thousand trucks, have a satisfactory DOT rating, and their safety rating is better than industry average. Sure they've got their issues, but we all do.. as soon as you've got more than a handful of employees you've got your rogue employee who makes poor decisions and represents the business in a negative manner. There's just no getting around that unless you can get away with employing no one. Swift (and the other big carriers) have become the de facto training school for the industry.. they will take someone with no experience and bring them along. Their much smaller competitors generally won't and can't do that.
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