Not a good look for the Class 1's ...
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/17-worst-companies-america-170000191.html
Surprise, surprise, surprise........
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
SD60MAC9500 Not a good look for the Class 1's ... https://finance.yahoo.com/news/17-worst-companies-america-170000191.html
Between all the other negatives
The most highlighted one was the realtity that railroads operate 24/7/365 and to do that many employees have to work other than 8-5 Monday to Friday.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Remember what I said about the "jungle telegraph" in the "Finding Train Crews" thread?
Well here it is, and on Yahoo no less.
Interesting how many of those places named listed management issues as a major problem. Obviously there's a problem but it's going to defy an easy fix.
Hey, Wayne, when do you think NS is going to reveal the results of Whitehead's survey, so we can discuss it here in this thread?
I think Lily Tomlin's Ernestine would remember the answer...
BaltACDThe most highlighted one was the realtity that railroads operate 24/7/365 and to do that many employees have to work other than 8-5 Monday to Friday.
Survey is not a surprise to me and it is one of the reasons I choose against a railroad career back when I was in my 20's. I had a choice and I did my research via phones, letters and asking around. Just with the letters out of 10 attempts, 5 returns were railroad managers bitching at me, 2 were positive with patches, decals, etc returned (of those 2, one was the Milwaukee Road and it was bankrupt).......the other three boilerplate HR negatives.
IT consulting has those hours some of the time. However, your compensated for it in that you usually get paid $15,000-20,000 above market salary vs a non consulting position, they do put you in 4-5 star hotels generally, they pay a per diem higher than what the railroads pay. Typically your manager is smarter than you, though I had a few that were fairly stupid as well and should have given up with ambition after McDonald's team lead.
My perception of railroads formed initially back in the early 1980 when I first did my research in High School. Railroad Managers usually bitchy. Railroad employees seemed to be generally friendly but would rather not talk with outsiders (Vets are same way). Pay is OK to shitty unless you do over time (depends on if railroad is Class I and what your assignment is). Benefits better than average job but if you shop on the civilian side you can do better.......though you can't do better than railroad retirement vs SS. Customer facing usually limited to warehousemen or shipping dock manager. Rare you ever talk to a client Executive or someone near the top responsible for running the business you serve. Heavily unionized, leading to bouts of management vs employee paranoia, ridiculous union fueled rumors, some featherbedding work rules.
When I used to fly into KC from Dallas there were usually approx 4-6 BNSF Operations employees on the Monday flight flying in as well. They dressed professionally in business casual with the logo'd polo shirts even sometimes. Laptops and laptop software seemed to be up to date. They were also careful what they said and made sure you could not shoulder surf their screen most of the time.
BaltACD railroads operate 24/7/365 and to do that many employees have to work other than 8-5 Monday to Friday.
I think the "pool" nature of the crew call is a major part of the dissatisfaction. The call AT ANY TIME, and be here in an hour aspect, really leaves a lot to be desired.
I worked 4 twelves (in another industry) per week for a number of years, but always with the same days off, with (mostly) the same shifts, as a salaried employee, ....and really didn't mind the long hours, or the non-standard weekends. But being able to look forward to always having Tuesdays thru Thursdays off was a major factor in my happiness. Being able to plan forward with 90-95% certainty that I was gonna be able to stick to my personal plans made it worthwhile.
I went through a couple hiring sessions with Norfolk Southern, and when you need a job you make concessions with yourself, trying to justfy the personal sacrifice, in order to get a paycheck. But looking back now as a retiree, I'm actually glad that I never got the call to report for training.
I'm flexible, if they would have said "Hey look, you are gonna work 12 hour shifts, 5 days per week, and we decide which days will be your weekend, you will work holidays, but be given comp time off in the same week, but on a day ouf our choosing.....I would have been just fine with that.
But working an entire crew district as "an extra board" (which is the only thing they were offering) is insane.
And of course the other side of that being, not only can the phone ring at any time, but you also have to live with it when the phone doesn't ring at all.
Flintlock76listed management issues as a major problem
Yes and the classic 1920's atmosphere of us vs them is in place as well (management vs employees). You run into that sometimes on the non-railroad side but my current employer.....not the case. I get Quarterly town halls with the CEO with Q&A, Twice yearly small round tables Skypes with the VP. Monthly one on one Skype sessions with my manager. They do not always take my suggestions but sometimes they do and enough times that I feel it is participatory management.
I don't think you will ever see a railroad do that unless it is a shortline.
Overmod Hey, Wayne, when do you think NS is going to reveal the results of Whitehead's survey, so we can discuss it here in this thread? I think Lily Tomlin's Ernestine would remember the answer...
If that's so, then we may just see the results. But if the survey questions are worded so the answers they get are the ones they should get we probably never will. That happened with us too.
Too many corporate HQ's are la-la lands where the real world isn't welcome, and too many times those promoted up to corporate from the real world and try to bring reality with them aren't welcome for very long either. Sometime I think the philosophy is "If it wasn't for the damn customers and employees we could run this company exactly the way we want!"
But I suppose the above is true for any long-standing hide-bound organization of any kind. Human nature never changes.
Man, I haven't thought about Ernestine in years! She was a gas!
These surveys were done last year, during the height of the pandemic.
Do you think there would be any changes in attitudes since then?
I won't try to come to the defense of any company. I do know that employee attitudes feed off each other. Once bad attitudes take root, it's very difficult to turn it around. New employees adopt the bad feelings of older complaining employees.
York1 John
Convicted One BaltACD railroads operate 24/7/365 and to do that many employees have to work other than 8-5 Monday to Friday. I think the "pool" nature of the crew call is a major part of the dissatisfaction. The call AT ANY TIME, and be here in an hour aspect, really leaves a lot to be desired. ...
...
Not all railroad employees are T&E operations that are in FIFO pools or any of dozens of other calling schemes that attempt to regularize the T&E working times. That being said - every craft that is involved in keeping Class 1 railroad operations operating are in the position that even if they have a 8 to 5 M-F regular job their services may be required to work outside of those normal hours.
Crafts such as Clerks, Signalman, Carmen, MofW employees, Mechanical Dept employees all have regular jobs that have regular hours and days worked - that being said - those regular hours and days worked will not necessarily be 8 to 5 M-F; they may be 5 AM to 1 PM Wednesday to Sunday or 9 PM to 5 AM Saturday to Thursday, or maybe weekly around the clock Relief Jobs - In the world of PSR railroading all employees are expected to work overtime when directed as PSR's main aim is to limit employee head count.
Non-contract employees in operations (Officials) are probably the closest to wage slaves of any employees as they are on a flat salary - at least those involved in 1st level Supervision. For them 24 & 36 hour days are not unheard of and are not that unusual. Working 30 or 40 consecutive days without a day off are also not that unusual. Complain and you get the response 'You were looking for a job when you came here - start looking again and don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out'.
How do the .MARINES Rank in this survey? Clearly we are turning into a nation of lazy basement dwellers
BaltACDNon-contract employees in operations (Officials) are probably the closest to wage slaves of any employees as they are on a flat salary - at least those involved in 1st level Supervision. For them 24 & 36 hour days are not unheard of and are not that unusual. Working 30 or 40 consecutive days without a day off are also not that unusual. Complain and you get the response 'You were looking for a job when you came here - start looking again and don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out'.
Not so much anymore. Most of our managers seem to keep banker's hours anymore. Of course most of their RRing is done via Iphone.
Heck they even get regular days off.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
ronrunner How do the .MARINES Rank in this survey? Clearly we are turning into a nation of lazy basement dwellers I've been out of the picture a long time, the only constant is those who join the Corps don't do it for the money. The only rumblings of discontent I've heard lately is from the current Commandant getting rid of the Marine Corps tanks, the idea being to turn it into a more mobile rapid-reaction force. I hope he knows what he's doing! Not everyone's crazy about the idea. Marine enlisted tankers were offered the options of an early discharge, a shift to another military specialty, or an inter-service transfer to the Army. Officers were offered the same. I don't know about the enlisted guys but NO officers have taken the Army transfer option. (Probably because they don't want to have to buy all new uniforms!)
I've been out of the picture a long time, the only constant is those who join the Corps don't do it for the money.
The only rumblings of discontent I've heard lately is from the current Commandant getting rid of the Marine Corps tanks, the idea being to turn it into a more mobile rapid-reaction force. I hope he knows what he's doing! Not everyone's crazy about the idea. Marine enlisted tankers were offered the options of an early discharge, a shift to another military specialty, or an inter-service transfer to the Army. Officers were offered the same. I don't know about the enlisted guys but NO officers have taken the Army transfer option. (Probably because they don't want to have to buy all new uniforms!)
Is anyone surprised? Did BNSF, CN and CP participate?
Hospitals and various emergency services are also 24/7 operations. (There were some healthcare corporations listed but sound like nursing homes and homecare.) Although in size, most are too small for survey, I wonder about their dissatisfaction levels. One constant thread is complaints about management.
Someone wondered about people getting soft. Military folks grouse all the time, always have since Roman legions.
Railroaders complain as a pastime. But there used to be good with the bad. But lately, the bad has been outrunning the good. A lot of talent is leaving.
Last few years have been trying.
BaltACDFor them 24 & 36 hour days are not unheard of and are not that unusual. Working 30 or 40 consecutive days without a day off are also not that unusual.
Must be some GOOD vitamins!!
I was in The Painters Union in San Francisco for 30 years. I have always been a bit shocked when i hear about the Rail Unions.
This is all anecdotal on my part of course. But it seemed like they were not the most organized. It might be hard, with the distances they travel and the odd Hours/Days they work. I hope they can get their numbers aligned and correct some of the problems they have.
This is ONE article from a bad period of time in recent history...C-19... maybe things are not as bad as the article implies.? Either way, i wish my Railroad brothers all the best.!
I'm surprised that some of the OTR trucking companies aren't listed--CR England, CRST and Swift, in particular.
Convicted One BaltACD For them 24 & 36 hour days are not unheard of and are not that unusual. Working 30 or 40 consecutive days without a day off are also not that unusual. Must be some GOOD vitamins!!
BaltACD For them 24 & 36 hour days are not unheard of and are not that unusual. Working 30 or 40 consecutive days without a day off are also not that unusual.
In too many cases the 'vitamins' were 86 proof.
BaltACD SD60MAC9500 Not a good look for the Class 1's ... https://finance.yahoo.com/news/17-worst-companies-america-170000191.html Between all the other negatives The most highlighted one was the realtity that railroads operate 24/7/365 and to do that many employees have to work other than 8-5 Monday to Friday.
I imagine it doesn't help if one get's furloughed as soon as they get hired on the extra board... The only industry when you get hired just to sit around wondering if you'll get called back.
Working night shifts or long shifts isn't the issue, there are plenty of other 24/7 industries where you work 12 hours at a time, to say nothing of the fly in/fly out camp jobs that are common in remote areas like northern Canada.
The problems are working on call, the work/life balance (or lack thereof), the amount of time spent on layovers at away from home locations, and above all else the lack of respect, intimidation and bullying from management that has been present in one form or another for my entire working career, and I am given to understand that this goes back over 20 years at a minimum.
We could probably put up with any one or two of those things, but all of them at once is just too much. And it's getting worse again, not better.
It remains to be seen how smart the railroader unions are compared to those in other industries, but one must remember that we are up against a very powerful and well funded opponent in the form of Class I management. An opponent which takes every opportunity to game the system and has no respect for laws, regulations or contracts they have signed.
And all too often the government takes the company's side when push comes to shove. A union can only do so much in the face of this sort of opposition.
CN has been conducting internal employee surveys for about a year now, I think it's part of some new safety program with a fancy name that they spent a bunch of money on. They've tried to shine up the results and trumpet them in the internal company newsletter, but the real feedback isn't pretty.
They say the surveys resulted in a couple changes we wanted and some cuts reversed (like being allowed paper train lists again), but in reality all they did was make us fight to get something we already had, and they want us to think that's a win.
I haven't filled out a survey yet because you have to put your name to it and I don't trust them, but if I ever do I'm going to give them a piece of my mind about how they need to settle the giant pile of grievances and back off on discipline and harassment BEFORE they can even expect to begin a real respectful dialogue with the workforce.
charlie hebdo Is anyone surprised? Did BNSF, CN and CP participate? Hospitals and various emergency services are also 24/7 operations. (There were some healthcare corporations listed but sound like nursing homes and homecare.) Although in size, most are too small for survey, I wonder about their dissatisfaction levels. One constant thread is complaints about management. Someone wondered about people getting soft. Military folks grouse all the time, always have since Roman legions.
I believe the survey is independent of the corporations listed. If it was you could be sure the "winners" in the survey would not consent to it being published.
This is not new news, as someone pointed out. Nor is it the only survey out there because I've seen UP at only #3 in one. I do believe that this (12/20 date) is not the first year where some of the class ones have ranked so high.
It's not necessarily the crazy hours themselves. They make it clear during the hiring sessions. What's bad, and it mostly affects the conductors working pool and extra board assignments is that the boards are so thin. It started with the company keeping the boards thin because they are guaranteed boards. Now it's because they don't have any reserve left to augment the boards when they need to. This leads to the conductors working more, especially the pool (the pool is an unassigned, first-in/first out board that works through freight assignments) conductors.
The pool in the past was staffed so that they would get about 30 hours, give or take, off between runs at the home terminal. (Freight engineer's pool was about the same.) The extra board usually (as it's supposed to) would turn faster but still not necessarily always right on your rest. If you wanted more time off, you worked the pool. If you wanted to make money, you worked the extra board.
Now, the conductors are usually turning on their rest. Both Pool and extra board. With the requirement for 48/72 hours off if you've exceed 6/7 consecutive starts, it just makes the boards turn that much faster. No available extra boards means that any pool vacancies, like off sick, paid or unpaid personal leave, vacation, etc. don't get filled. That just moves up the next marked up conductor. I once had to wait 12 hours to go to work because there were no available, pool or extra board, conductors available. During that time a couple that were due to become rested (available) marked off. Because they had been working so much.
Now some are leaving the railroad partly because of the having no real time off. (They are guys who have 12 to 14 years in. Some are looking for other non class one opprotunites to stay in Railroad Retirement.) Couple that to the way management, local and higher up, look at and treat their work force. (One possibly positive. They have amended their attendence policy somewhat. It doesn't appear to as draconian as before, but we shall see.)
A little story. About a year or two back a dispatcher, who had been a conductor on my district, was in the cafeteria of the HQ building. Some people who worked in the building, probably staff in the various non-operating business functions of the company, were talking about "train trash." He excused himself and asked them what they were talking about. "Train trash" meant the people, trainmen and engineers, who work the trains and yards. He reminded them that the "train trash" were the people that did the work that brought in the money for the company.
Now those people weren't the big bosses or the decision makers in the company. Many have probably been purged in some of the PSR cost cutting moves. Still, I doubt they came up with the term on their own. I would guess they heard it from their bosses, who heard it from their bosses and so on.
So why would morale be so low at some of the class ones?
Jeff - Train Trash
PS. Of course this dispatcher told his friends back home. Someone even made up T-shirts, but I don't have one.
jeffhergert... A little story. About a year or two back a dispatcher, who had been a conductor on my district, was in the cafeteria of the HQ building. Some people who worked in the building, probably staff in the various non-operating business functions of the company, were talking about "train trash." He excused himself and asked them what they were talking about. "Train trash" meant the people, trainmen and engineers, who work the trains and yards. He reminded them that the "train trash" were the people that did the work that brought in the money for the company. Now those people weren't the big bosses or the decision makers in the company. Many have probably been purged in some of the PSR cost cutting moves. Still, I doubt they came up with the term on their own. I would guess they heard it from their bosses, who heard it from their bosses and so on. So why would morale be so low at some of the class ones? Jeff - Train Trash PS. Of course this dispatcher told his friends back home. Someone even made up T-shirts, but I don't have one.
The headquarters office types would have no difference in their job functions if they were working for a insurance company or a bank as it applies to their duties and work functions in working for a railroad. Paper shufflers (of course in today's office world they bit and byte shufflers).
Sounds like UP left the words "Looking Out For Number" off the "One" locomotive.
It is so disappointing to hear the stories of corporate culture that looks down on the people doing the actual work. Not that I am a pollyanna and expecting everything is all yippy-skippy and kumbaya all the time.
But it sounds like the actual situation is much more guns than roses in terms of respecting the operating staff, and that is disturbing and disappointing.
kgbw49It is so disappointing to hear the stories of corporate culture that looks down on the people doing the actual work. Not that I am a pollyanna and expecting everything is all yippy-skippy and kumbaya all the time. But it sounds like the actual situation is much more guns than roses in terms of respecting the operating staff, and that is disturbing and disappointing.
I've read in other venues and subject areas that the gap between upper level management and the worker bees is growing. I would opine that is reflected in the knowledge (or rather lack of) upper level management has of "boots on the ground" operations.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
kgbw49Sounds like UP left the words "Looking Out For Number" off the "One" locomotive. It is so disappointing to hear the stories of corporate culture that looks down on the people doing the actual work. Not that I am a pollyanna and expecting everything is all yippy-skippy and kumbaya all the time. But it sounds like the actual situation is much more guns than roses in terms of respecting the operating staff, and that is disturbing and disappointing.
Considering the 'aura' of the past 5 years in the USA - you would expect anything different?
tree68 kgbw49 It is so disappointing to hear the stories of corporate culture that looks down on the people doing the actual work. Not that I am a pollyanna and expecting everything is all yippy-skippy and kumbaya all the time. But it sounds like the actual situation is much more guns than roses in terms of respecting the operating staff, and that is disturbing and disappointing. I've read in other venues and subject areas that the gap between upper level management and the worker bees is growing. I would opine that is reflected in the knowledge (or rather lack of) upper level management has of "boots on the ground" operations.
kgbw49 It is so disappointing to hear the stories of corporate culture that looks down on the people doing the actual work. Not that I am a pollyanna and expecting everything is all yippy-skippy and kumbaya all the time. But it sounds like the actual situation is much more guns than roses in terms of respecting the operating staff, and that is disturbing and disappointing.
I imagine it correlates well with the Gini Index.
Part of the problem with trying to get anyone from England or Swift to fill out this survey is this. They like people who have been there at least 1 years. The standing joke I always hear in the office is at the England means Every New Driver Leaves After Ninety Days. Swift has so many acronyms for their name including many unsafe for work it's not funny.
There's a reason why certain carriers are called bottom feeders and they have earned it. Swift and England for their behavior towards driver's are in that bunch.
Shadow the Cats owner Part of the problem with trying to get anyone from England or Swift to fill out this survey is this. They like people who have been there at least 1 years. The standing joke I always hear in the office is at the England means Every New Driver Leaves After Ninety Days. Swift has so many acronyms for their name including many unsafe for work it's not funny. There's a reason why certain carriers are called bottom feeders and they have earned it. Swift and England for their behavior towards driver's are in that bunch.
Don't forget Stevens Transport..
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