You actually have people???
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
W/out seeing the information, I'm assuming, along w/UP, the NS & CSX are the other two. Not surprising. The culture and enviorment has become basically a depressing feeling of just showing up to work. Having to fight to get paid a spcl claim doesn't help either. No one minds doing 'extra" work, but when timekeeping plays their tatic games of constant declines, which we forward and ends up in claims conference, many do get processed months or longer down the road, it gets old. The lineup projections are horrible and many times you don't know when the o/d 1st out call will come. I had one a few months ago that in a span of three hours, moved up 12 1/2 hrs--on a pool board! Being on these trains well after HOS has expired is becoming more the norm. No one likes being on duty and not getting paid. No one cares. Many of us have to stay in dump lower teir hotels that the carriers put us in and that has become a constant fight that management deflects off their shoulders.
Case in point of being called to work on a double-ended condr pool board: The guy ahead of me on "my" board went o/d like 0915 one morn. I would be the next HT condr called. Ahead of me were the AFHT condrs. My projection kept falling back from early afternoon to middle of night. 18 AFHT condrs were called ahead of me. That evening I simply did an immediate PLD, which was accepted. It came to the point I don't care what I'm called on, just call me. The extra board cut in turn was called like 0330 after my turn sat 1st out for 18 hrs. And you come to work 'rested" This is the side non railroaders do not see or have knowledge of and it is ugly and as one becomes older in life, it becomes more ugly only because the carriers makes it that way.Used to be a good occupation to be in but not any longer. Thankful ole Sam has something like 1590 days left on the ballast
Convicted One Backshop You just live under your means. Yeah, foregoing "excess" for a lifetime can have benefits, provided one is cozy with the sense of sacrifice. My point was that after one's basic necessities are taken care of, your 100K guy has more discretionary income to decide what he wants to do with it...live large or invest. The scale of that determination is decidedly more limited in scope for the 40K guy. I find now that I am in my 60's, my physical limitations will not allow me to do many things I previously enjoyed. So, in that context, I am glad that I often splurged back when I was still young enough to enjoy it. A lifetime of sacrifice eating beans and weenies kinda sux too if you don't live long enough for the pay off.
Backshop You just live under your means.
Yeah, foregoing "excess" for a lifetime can have benefits, provided one is cozy with the sense of sacrifice.
My point was that after one's basic necessities are taken care of, your 100K guy has more discretionary income to decide what he wants to do with it...live large or invest.
The scale of that determination is decidedly more limited in scope for the 40K guy.
I find now that I am in my 60's, my physical limitations will not allow me to do many things I previously enjoyed. So, in that context, I am glad that I often splurged back when I was still young enough to enjoy it.
A lifetime of sacrifice eating beans and weenies kinda sux too if you don't live long enough for the pay off.
Revenue looks like it was increasing however most of the increase was from the sale of assets like locomotives and facilities that were shuttered deferment of maintenance costs and other one time items. My boss can do the exact same thing with his books for about 6 months then the *** will start hitting the fan around here massively especially in the maintenance area. We've had 2 bad ordered UP locomotives sitting on a rip track here in Streator for about a week. The problem burned out traction motors that locked up. Hulcher was by yesterday to replace them and the trackage rights train picked them up today going from 1 engine up front to 3 I watched them pick them up.
UlrichBut revenue hasn't been declining.. this year's revenue way up over last and revenue growth has overall been on a steady growth trajectory over the last 15-20 years. The OR has taken a bit of a hit over the last couple of years, post PSR mania. I guess that can be a good thing as they nolonger appear to be completely transfixed with lowering the OR at the expense of everything else.
Considering what 2020 was - comparing 2021 to 2020 is a false argument on year over year results. A better comparison would be 2019 to 2021 - years with intentionally active economic engines. In 2020 the economic engine was being operated with the brakes in full service position.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Convicted One Plus, a trip to Machu Picchu when you are in your 30s will give you half a lifetime to savor the memories. If you instead depend upon waiting until you are 70 to make the trip, there likely will be far fewer waiting at home for you to return and share your experiences with.
Plus, a trip to Machu Picchu when you are in your 30s will give you half a lifetime to savor the memories. If you instead depend upon waiting until you are 70 to make the trip, there likely will be far fewer waiting at home for you to return and share your experiences with.
Not to mention that you might not even live to see the age of 70. People who live an ascetic lifestyle to save for a prosperous retirement are making a huge bet that their lives will conform to actuarial tables.
But revenue hasn't been declining.. this year's revenue way up over last and revenue growth has overall been on a steady growth trajectory over the last 15-20 years. The OR has taken a bit of a hit over the last couple of years, post PSR mania. I guess that can be a good thing as they nolonger appear to be completely transfixed with lowering the OR at the expense of everything else.
Yeah to you that point were you're fixed costs exceed your revenue that you manage to bring in. A company cutting off profitable business and expecting revenue to increase while costs are going up. Sooner rather than later the ship will flip over and these railroads will find themselves underwater in a hurry. We may be seeing the start of it now with the problems they're having getting containers moved. If the volumes keep up Lord help them come the holiday rush season.
cx500 SD70Dude .......... All they care about are the numbers, and employee (dis)satisfaction cannot be measured in dollars. Well, unless your business grinds to a halt because no one wants to work for you.......... And of course when the business disappears, so do the incoming dollars. But that is OK because they do not show up on the balance sheet, and the bean counters stay in happy ignorance by cutting further.
SD70Dude .......... All they care about are the numbers, and employee (dis)satisfaction cannot be measured in dollars. Well, unless your business grinds to a halt because no one wants to work for you..........
.......... All they care about are the numbers, and employee (dis)satisfaction cannot be measured in dollars.
Well, unless your business grinds to a halt because no one wants to work for you..........
Exactly.
As long as you cut costs faster than the decline in revenue your OR will still go down, and that's the only number that matters. Right?
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
I can honestly say this about the OTR industry. The last few carrier's that paid more attention to shareholders than their own employees and businesses well let's just say have been very large and spectacular failures. Arrow was the first pumping up the revenue from double billing to make the shareholders more money. The CEO and several other people went to prison there. Then we had Celadon who got caught by the SEC over calculating the value of assets they literally imploded from the loss of value at one time they were the largest cross border carrier in the USA between here and Mexico.
Ulrich Easier to do when you're young for sure. I started my first job at $22K gross.. I saved $12K of that in my first year. I don't think i could do it now.. I'm still saving but no more than 10% of my earnings..
Easier to do when you're young for sure. I started my first job at $22K gross.. I saved $12K of that in my first year. I don't think i could do it now.. I'm still saving but no more than 10% of my earnings..
My first professional job paid $20k back in 2000 and my wife was making $12k a year teaching in grad school. Cost of living allowed me to buy a new Wrangler two years later. We lived paycheck to paycheck.
We felt "wealthy" because we had no debt beyond very small student loans ($90 a month) and that car payment.
But we also had no extra money to pay into investments or retirement. It took another eight years and two jobs before I reached a point where I had enough discretionary funds to start paying into a retirement account.
FWIW, I still have that 2002 Wrangler. It's still a daily driver. Make good purchases and sqeeze everything you can from them.
Cost of living has increased significantly faster than salaries. I have been fortunate to continue to grow my salary because I work in tech, but my friends in the trades are not.
Paul F
Well, in sum total, I'm not necessarily "anti" investment. Especially if one has an employer willing to match employee input.
But I've certainly witnessed plenty during my life to feed skeptcism. Annual inflation rates (at one time) of 7% made anticipated rates of return negative. Stuff like that. Plus I feel like the small investor is often at the mercy of the big boys, and can suffer the (intentional) consequences of decisions made well out of your own control.
I remember losing big on Chrysler through a trust fund set up by one of my benevolent relatives, Because of the way it was set up, no one was accountable. And since the money was not my own hard earned cash, the pain really didn't set in as it might have otherwise. But once I reached the age to gain control it was a no brainer to clear it all out.
So, my personal perspective is, if one is making enough money that you have a surplus, and NEED TO FIND some place to put it (the 100K guy), then yes by all means invest.
But, if you're that 40K guy raising a family and just covering expenses, then eating TV dinners every night and buying the kids clothes at goodwill just so you can squeeze a couple grand a year into Hupmobile, likely isn't going to be the yellow brick road one would hope for. (YMMV)
Very true..its a balance between living now and saving for the future.
Convicted One Ulrich still beats stuffing the matress with dollar bills. Yeah, just think of what a thousand dollars will buy you 30 years from now, compared to today.
Ulrich still beats stuffing the matress with dollar bills.
Yeah, just think of what a thousand dollars will buy you 30 years from now, compared to today.
More provided it is invested properly..
When I got my first pay increase, I put 1/2 into savings and the rest into my pay check. And continued doing that over the years. Over the years, it has grown and I am giving more than I ever expected to charitable causes. RMD's all go to charities. There used to be a Chicago S&L that advertised the "Bohemian easy payment plan", Save your money, pay 100% down and there will be NO easy payments. You don't need a new car every year. You don't need to see every movie. The Library has books, and videos. Try not to need everything that is being sold. It requires WON'T power. But over a few years, you will have a nest egg that will empower you. And it will earn you freedom.
BackshopYou just live under your means.
Convicted One Ulrich compounding still works.. So does inflation.
Ulrich compounding still works..
So does inflation.
All the more reason to make sure your investments compound.. still beats stuffing the matress with dollar bills.
Convicted One Socking away 10% of your annual pay into stocks for 30 years is a lot easier to do for a guy making $100K/year, than for a guy making $40K....cause, you know, life happens.
Socking away 10% of your annual pay into stocks for 30 years is a lot easier to do for a guy making $100K/year, than for a guy making $40K....cause, you know, life happens.
Ulrichcompounding still works..
Life happens for everyone.. even for the 100K+ person.. don't sock away 10% per year.. put away less.. compounding still works..
Bootstrap is all most of us can do.. its either the stock market or real estate.. or working until you're health gives out.
zugmann Ulrich Maybe they can invest more on their own..over years it adds up fast.. The ol' bootstrap excuse is old and tired.
Ulrich Maybe they can invest more on their own..over years it adds up fast..
The ol' bootstrap excuse is old and tired.
Urine is about the only thing that trickles down.
Transportation is a tough row to hoe in the best of times, and when you add in out of touch or hostile management then things tend to become downright intolerable. I've experienced the same over the years (perhaps not to the same extent as you have).. but enough certainly to get the general feel of it. Hopefully they address those concerns as they appear to be the general consensus across the board.
UlrichMaybe they can invest more on their own..over years it adds up fast..
Ulrich BaltACD Ulrich BaltACD Ulrich Hopefully the top brass are paying attention.. They are too focused on 'shareholder value' to understand 1st level employee job satisfaction, fact of the matter is they don't care about anyones job statisfaction until they arrive at the 'top brass' level. Maybe a bit of a silver lining then for those employees who own shares.. A silver lining thousands if not millions of times thinner than the amount of silver used in film emulsions. Working is a everyday, day in day out issue. Employee owned stock value/dividends is nominally a once a quarter reality - yes, employees look at their companies stock prices but knowing that nothing you do in the routine performance of your work day duties will have absolutely no effect on either the price of the stock or the size of the divedend. For most employees stock holdings in their companies - if the quarterly dividend for their holdings supply enough 'money' for a night with the family out on the town - they have 'done good'. Maybe they can invest more on their own..over years it adds up fast..
BaltACD Ulrich BaltACD Ulrich Hopefully the top brass are paying attention.. They are too focused on 'shareholder value' to understand 1st level employee job satisfaction, fact of the matter is they don't care about anyones job statisfaction until they arrive at the 'top brass' level. Maybe a bit of a silver lining then for those employees who own shares.. A silver lining thousands if not millions of times thinner than the amount of silver used in film emulsions. Working is a everyday, day in day out issue. Employee owned stock value/dividends is nominally a once a quarter reality - yes, employees look at their companies stock prices but knowing that nothing you do in the routine performance of your work day duties will have absolutely no effect on either the price of the stock or the size of the divedend. For most employees stock holdings in their companies - if the quarterly dividend for their holdings supply enough 'money' for a night with the family out on the town - they have 'done good'.
Ulrich BaltACD Ulrich Hopefully the top brass are paying attention.. They are too focused on 'shareholder value' to understand 1st level employee job satisfaction, fact of the matter is they don't care about anyones job statisfaction until they arrive at the 'top brass' level. Maybe a bit of a silver lining then for those employees who own shares..
BaltACD Ulrich Hopefully the top brass are paying attention.. They are too focused on 'shareholder value' to understand 1st level employee job satisfaction, fact of the matter is they don't care about anyones job statisfaction until they arrive at the 'top brass' level.
Ulrich Hopefully the top brass are paying attention..
They are too focused on 'shareholder value' to understand 1st level employee job satisfaction, fact of the matter is they don't care about anyones job statisfaction until they arrive at the 'top brass' level.
Maybe a bit of a silver lining then for those employees who own shares..
A silver lining thousands if not millions of times thinner than the amount of silver used in film emulsions.
Working is a everyday, day in day out issue. Employee owned stock value/dividends is nominally a once a quarter reality - yes, employees look at their companies stock prices but knowing that nothing you do in the routine performance of your work day duties will have absolutely no effect on either the price of the stock or the size of the divedend. For most employees stock holdings in their companies - if the quarterly dividend for their holdings supply enough 'money' for a night with the family out on the town - they have 'done good'.
Maybe they can invest more on their own..over years it adds up fast..
It doesn't add up THAT FAST.
While I do take full advantage of CN's employee share program and have also bought additional shares on my own, that's a naive attitude that fails to account for the reality of life, the universe and everything. Not everyone decides to throw as much as possible into the stock market, even on a historically reliable investment like a Class I railroad, everyone's investment strategy is different and life has a way of throwing other expenses at you.
It's nice to see the stock price go up, but that doesn't really affect me on a daily basis, just like how the things I do really have no effect on the stock price.
As an employee, I would prefer to see upper management take a couple hours to think about improving employee relations and making changes that cut back on the bullying and harassment tactics at work. It is possible, when Mike Cory became CN's COO most of the crap disappeared for a while. But he didn't last, and since he left (replaced by ex-BNSFer Rob Reilly) it has slowly been getting worse again.
But I don't think it will happen again. All they care about are the numbers, and employee (dis)satisfaction cannot be measured in dollars.
UlrichMaybe a bit of a silver lining then for those employees who own shares..
Like what you get when you put a spoon in a pencil sharpener.
UlrichHopefully the top brass are paying attention..
zugmannIt's not the same place it was a few years ago.
That's pretty much the litany for a lot of veteran employees everywhere counting the days until they put in their papers and retire. It was true in my case anyway.
Hopefully the top brass are paying attention..
zugmann... It's not the same place it was a few years ago.
It's not the same place it was a few years ago.
From everything I have been hearing - I got out when the getting was good. 3 months before EHH tore CSX apart.
One of the few advantages of smaller businesses.. no us verses them.. no management hierachy.. no memos even.. My wife once said to me "It's almost as if you work for the drivers instead of them working for you!" My response was "what do you mean ALMOST?".
zugmann I don't know if it's infuriating, depressing, pathetic, or just plain funny (in a sadistic way) anymore.
Sometimes it's very telling the way the term "we" is used in memorandums and other internal correspondence. IS that a "we" that includes me? Or was it expressly intended to draw a line?
It's the snake that eats itself.
They can't get people so they overuse and abuse the people they have, then wonder why more people quit? The cycle is just getting worse. Engineer's list spends half its time conducting. Or my favorite - they start holding people out for certain jobs. "No, you can't have that decent daylight job today - we need to save you for the midnight job - don't worry, we'll have someone half your seniority step up to run the other job". Yeah, it's a claim if they pay it without a fight, but sometimes you would like to work a daylight gig for a day. I don't know if it's infuriating, depressing, pathetic, or just plain funny (in a sadistic way) anymore.
Anyone catch actor James Gregory, "Inspector Luger" from the "Barney Miller" TV sitcom, in "At This Moment?"
I've seen "At This Moment" several times and always find it an enjoyable time capsule. The YouTuber's intro to the film is very good putting it in context, but comes across (to me at least) a just a tiny bit smug and condescending. Still, he appreciates the film for what it is, so that's something.
jeffhergertI'm just the opposite of others. I love working the road pools. You'll never see me on a regular yard job unless it's all I could hold. I guess working out, laying over, then working back for so long has me set in my ways. I can't imagine being home every night. Jeff
I guess working out, laying over, then working back for so long has me set in my ways. I can't imagine being home every night.
Jeff
Different strokes for differet folks.
At one point in time I had the Georgia RR as a part of my territory on CSX. Crews were home in Augusta, GA and worked to Atlanta and Plant Harrlee outside Milledgeville, GA. Crews would also protect the New Georgia RR Dinner train that operated from Atlanta to Stone Mountain and return as well as ballast trains that took empties from Atlanta to Lithonia and return to Atlanta with loaded ballast cars. Coal trains operated from Atlanta to Plant Harrlee, most time empties came back to Atlanta, sometimes they went to Augusta.
The agreement in effect when I first worked the territory only required crews to be DH back to Augusta IF they had not been 'home' for 14 DAYS - TWO 7 DAY WEEKS. And it wasn't hard to keep crews out of Augusta for that length of time.
Train Augusta to Atalnta, Get Rest, Dinner Train to Stone Mountain and back, Get Rest, Loaded Coal train to Plant Harrlee, Get Rest, Empties from Plant Harrlee to Atlanta, Get Rest, Lithonia Ballast train turn Get Rest - Each run worked would be 10 to 12 hours - Rest would be 8 hours or more 16, 18 or 20 hours before being called back on duty.
Obviously the Union official that negotiated that contract was of the opinion - 'I am working for money not prestige', and had the support of those working at the time of his election to the post. Later on the agreement was changed to a 4 trip maximum. ie. Augusta to Atlanta, Atlanta to Harrlee, Harrlee to Atlanta, Lithonia turn, DH Home (or work a train to Augusta rather than the Lithonia Turn).
I'm just the opposite of others. I love working the road pools. You'll never see me on a regular yard job unless it's all I could hold.
zugmann Doktor No As for regular work...thats why I went into Yard Service. Regular hours, days off and I actually forgot what a crew caller even was. Gone 7 years and with an excellent pension and wouldn't have changed a thing. WIfe enjoys her piece of Railroad Retirement too. 8-) That's the problem. They have been cutting so many regular job that many will spend most of their careers on extra lists/pool service/relief jobs. The incentive of some day holding a regular job is all but gone in most places.
Doktor No As for regular work...thats why I went into Yard Service. Regular hours, days off and I actually forgot what a crew caller even was. Gone 7 years and with an excellent pension and wouldn't have changed a thing. WIfe enjoys her piece of Railroad Retirement too. 8-)
That's the problem. They have been cutting so many regular job that many will spend most of their careers on extra lists/pool service/relief jobs. The incentive of some day holding a regular job is all but gone in most places.
Today's carriers are a far cry from what there were then 'At This Moment' was filmed in the middle 1950's. In the intro of the actual movie - look at all the logos of the Class 1 carriers that existed at that time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pRSDItUGmM
As Zugmann shows us, things have changed for the worse in recent years. The title is concerning major railroads currently.
Convicted One I believe that many of you are overlooking the impact that consolidation has had upon the industry. Back when there were 20+ class one railroads, there was a good chance that if you got fed up with one employer, you could quit, walk across town, and hire on with a different railroad, the same day. Since the employee had options, the employer had to at least be mindful of that. Now, the employer really doesn't have to care if the employee feels job satisfaction, or not. Where else you gonna go? Lower paying short line? commute a couple hundred miles? Rip up all your roots and move to a new city?
I believe that many of you are overlooking the impact that consolidation has had upon the industry.
Back when there were 20+ class one railroads, there was a good chance that if you got fed up with one employer, you could quit, walk across town, and hire on with a different railroad, the same day. Since the employee had options, the employer had to at least be mindful of that.
Now, the employer really doesn't have to care if the employee feels job satisfaction, or not. Where else you gonna go? Lower paying short line? commute a couple hundred miles? Rip up all your roots and move to a new city?
If you haven't been fired at least once you're not trying hard enough.
zugmann BaltACD Railroading is not for everyone and that was communicated a number of times in the video. Oh come on, even before PSR slashing and burning, that video is complete horse manure. Any wonder why they can't get people to hire on and guys with 5-10-20+ years are walking out?
BaltACD Railroading is not for everyone and that was communicated a number of times in the video.
Oh come on, even before PSR slashing and burning, that video is complete horse manure.
Any wonder why they can't get people to hire on and guys with 5-10-20+ years are walking out?
The word on the 'street' when I was working was that no one was a true NS employee until they had been fired at least once.
I enjoyed the video.. thanks for sharing. The engineer is a funny guy.
YOU HIT IT RIGHT ON THE PROVERBIAL HEAD SD70!! CSX is no different. I hired on with Chessie in 1978 and got furloughed when the auto business went out the door here in Michigan in 77. Gone 12 years but came back with all my seniority intact and I knew what I was getting into.
As for regular work...thats why I went into Yard Service. Regular hours, days off and I actually forgot what a crew caller even was. Gone 7 years and with an excellent pension and wouldn't have changed a thing. WIfe enjoys her piece of Railroad Retirement too. 8-)
Dano in Michigan
Well, I spent almost my entire almost 40 year career in the railroad industry but never working directly for a railroad, they were my customers. That said I learned very early on that I didn't want to work directly for a railroad. Yes, they are 24/7 businesses and even in my work 3AM phone calls and long work sessions were not uncommon but that's the nature of the business. However, it seemed to me that most railroaders were jerked around a lot more than I was. That said, I don't think I've ever had good management in any employment. Some, but not all, of my managers were good people trying hard but they were being screwed by the system as well. I, myself, was a manager for some years in the 1980's and it seemed I was always between a rock and a hard place so I "went back to my tools" and was much happier. The railroad industry is full of good people trying hard to do a good job but frankly I have little respect for their top management.
BaltACDRailroading is not for everyone and that was communicated a number of times in the video.
zugmann
Commenter, with his condescending attitude was more cringey than the ideas communicated in the video.
Railroading is not for everyone and that was communicated a number of times in the video.
Backshop I'm surprised that some of the OTR trucking companies aren't listed--CR England, CRST and Swift, in particular.
I'm surprised that some of the OTR trucking companies aren't listed--CR England, CRST and Swift, in particular.
England and "Swifties" are generally known for being more "newbie friendly" and a bit more forgiving of (past) misadventures, and that counts for at least something with many drivers.
While there's never been a truck driver who didn't complain, experiened OTR drivers have been in such demand for so long that mobility isn't an issue. If your DS gives you an abnormal number of deliveries or pickups at locations known to burn up your earning hours waiting for a dock door, or keeps putting off your next home trip, you can turn the truck in and be working for another company in just a few days - with a sign-on bonus in some cases. If an OTR driver is really dissatisfied, they don't stick around.
While there's never been a truck driver who didn't complain, they still have a greater degreee of self-direction than most operating railroaders - even with e-logs.
I think that the reality on that is, they understand that some loss is inevitable. They just calculate the objective to be worth anticipated losses, and christen the casualties to be heroes.
Some hardass know their game and will try to get you killed anyway.. just for the heck of it.
Flintlock76 SD70Dude Isn't that called "fragging"? Uh-huh. Although typically "fragging" occurs as a means of self-preservation, that is, removing an incompetant leader before he gets you all killed. If the leader's competant, knows his business, and especially how to keep his people alive he doesn't have too much to worry about, even if he's a hard unlikeable SOB.
SD70Dude Isn't that called "fragging"?
Uh-huh.
Although typically "fragging" occurs as a means of self-preservation, that is, removing an incompetant leader before he gets you all killed. If the leader's competant, knows his business, and especially how to keep his people alive he doesn't have too much to worry about, even if he's a hard unlikeable SOB.
It becomes very evident, very quickly 'hard asses' that know their game and those that will get you killed.
SD70DudeIsn't that called "fragging"?
BaltACDNot everybody is cut out for supervisory positions with a modicum of 'power'. The 'power' goes to their heads. Just because someone has superior technical skills in their area does not mean they have the ability to supervise their area.
The "Peter Principle" in a nutshell. Unfortunately, all too often they don't get put back where they should be, and continue to wreak havoc.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
BaltACD Shadows incident isn't unusual. In the military it sometimes results in 'friendly fire' incidents.
Shadows incident isn't unusual. In the military it sometimes results in 'friendly fire' incidents.
Isn't that called "fragging"?
You are correct that a lot of folks can't handle power and responsibility, in some cases the authoritaw goes to their head.
Shadow the Cats ownerYep pretty much SD70Dude you nailed it. We just demoted a foreman of our shop here back to a mechanic. Why well to say he doesn't have people skills is putting it mildly. He was threatening to write up our drivers for the smallest infraction they did let alone the people working under him. One mechanic who has been with us for 30 years walked into the owners office and said it's either me walking out or your going to need the sheriff and an ambulance here if I go back into the shop. The owner asked why. He was told that his most senior mechanic had just been suspended for 3 weeks without pay for failure to secure his tools in his box between jobs. That was the straw that caused the former foreman to be demoted that day. He also was thrown onto the night shift working overnights as the owner said until either Hell freezes over or we land a man on the sun.
Not everybody is cut out for supervisory positions with a modicum of 'power'. The 'power' goes to their heads. Just because someone has superior technical skills in their area does not mean they have the ability to supervise their area.
Yep pretty much SD70Dude you nailed it. We just demoted a foreman of our shop here back to a mechanic. Why well to say he doesn't have people skills is putting it mildly. He was threatening to write up our drivers for the smallest infraction they did let alone the people working under him. One mechanic who has been with us for 30 years walked into the owners office and said it's either me walking out or your going to need the sheriff and an ambulance here if I go back into the shop. The owner asked why. He was told that his most senior mechanic had just been suspended for 3 weeks without pay for failure to secure his tools in his box between jobs. That was the straw that caused the former foreman to be demoted that day. He also was thrown onto the night shift working overnights as the owner said until either Hell freezes over or we land a man on the sun.
Not a snowball's chance......
They'll just blame the employees for being too negative, and continue the beatings until morale improves.
Back to the original link, does anyone think that the management running the 3 railroads mentioned, if they were to read that article, would they think "oh dear, there is a problem we must work to correct"?
kenny dorhamI jumped down your throat a bit on that. My Fault I Apologize
Not any problem whatsoever, I enjoy a spirited debate.
I'm just glad that no innocent bystanders were harmed..
Convicted One kenny dorham You think 65k, for 2k hours per year, for a construction job is a "Bonanza".? Likely a discussion so far removed from the subject of trains, that if we pursued it in sufficient detail, we would only irritate people. But yeah, where I am, unskilled "grunt" labor is in the $25-30K range, with moderately skilled jobs paying in the $43-47K range. Which led me to suspect the figure Urich was using must include some.....upleasantry pay? Kenny, it seems like I recall discussion with you in an old "California High Speed Passenger Rail" thread, where we were talking about people working in San Francisco, but forced to live in the hinterlands of Bakersfield....was that you? Obviously for anyone expecting to both live and work in the immediate San Francisco bay area, yes I agree with you $65K would seem like a pittance.
kenny dorham You think 65k, for 2k hours per year, for a construction job is a "Bonanza".?
Likely a discussion so far removed from the subject of trains, that if we pursued it in sufficient detail, we would only irritate people. But yeah, where I am, unskilled "grunt" labor is in the $25-30K range, with moderately skilled jobs paying in the $43-47K range. Which led me to suspect the figure Urich was using must include some.....upleasantry pay?
Kenny, it seems like I recall discussion with you in an old "California High Speed Passenger Rail" thread, where we were talking about people working in San Francisco, but forced to live in the hinterlands of Bakersfield....was that you?
Obviously for anyone expecting to both live and work in the immediate San Francisco bay area, yes I agree with you $65K would seem like a pittance.
It sounds very familiar, and i Have-Do live in San Francisco and Sacramento.
And yeah, even though 65k is not a "Fortune"......you are 100% correct, it will certainly go further in some places than others.
The cost of Housing, Rent, Mortgage and Gasoline seem to be two of the BIGGEST financial concerns that can differ so widely from state to state.
I jumped down your throat a bit on that.
My Fault
I Apologize
One might opine that such is the reason industry in the US is on it's heels. As one pundit once said - people come out of college expecting to find a position, and end up with a job...
My earlier use of the word "bonanza" really had a sarcastic intent, although I can see now where I did not emphasize that aspect adequately, to make the point I had intended.
There are just some jobs out there that are so unpleasant, that the employers have just accepted that no one is going to choose to remain any longer than they absolutely must, before finding an alternative. Frequently those operations have to offer a sweetener, financially, to compensate for the unpleasantry. That was my wistful stab at "bonanza".
We've got one company in particular here locally, that their speciality is fabricating bar joists. Notorious for being an unpleasant place to work . If you are a senior welder, it not too bad a place to work, but the grunts really hate that place.
So, all the local assistance centers, the shelters, the unemployment office, the Urban League, anyplace where someone might go looking for a hand out, all have this place on their speed-dial for anyone needing "emergency" employment. They pay about $2/hr above minimum wage, and have about a 60-90 day turnover.
But, it evidently works for them, they seem to get an endless feed of fodder. People given little choice but to apply there, or else.
Ulrich Yes, I was "getting rich" pumping gas at the local Gulf in 79.. $3.25/hr..
Yes, I was "getting rich" pumping gas at the local Gulf in 79.. $3.25/hr..
I was getting even richer picking up garbage at $2.65/hr in 1978. We used to joke "minimum wage and all you can eat."
BaltACD Convicted One Ulrich but who knows, maybe I'm behind the times. We all have that vulnerability. When I was growing up, $15/hr seemed like a lot of money. Now it would put you just one click above poverty. (despite still looking like "a lot of money" to many small business owners who grew up in olden times) My first 'non-training rate' job on the railroad in 1965 paid $2.903 a hour and in relative terms - I was living 'high on the hog'. But 1965 is 56 years ago and the price of hogs has gone up, way up.
Convicted One Ulrich but who knows, maybe I'm behind the times. We all have that vulnerability. When I was growing up, $15/hr seemed like a lot of money. Now it would put you just one click above poverty. (despite still looking like "a lot of money" to many small business owners who grew up in olden times)
Ulrich but who knows, maybe I'm behind the times.
We all have that vulnerability. When I was growing up, $15/hr seemed like a lot of money. Now it would put you just one click above poverty. (despite still looking like "a lot of money" to many small business owners who grew up in olden times)
My first 'non-training rate' job on the railroad in 1965 paid $2.903 a hour and in relative terms - I was living 'high on the hog'. But 1965 is 56 years ago and the price of hogs has gone up, way up.
Convicted One but who knows, maybe I'm behind the times. We all have that vulnerability. When I was growing up, $15/hr seemed like a lot of money. Now it would put you just one click above poverty. (despite still looking like "a lot of money" to many small business owners who grew up in olden times)
but who knows, maybe I'm behind the times.
Same here.. once upon a time I served my country for $7.25/hr.. many moons ago.
Last year I met a retired railroader at one of my Bayview Junction outings. He told me that he started with Erie Lackwanna at $25/day..
Irritate people? That never happens does it? Likely it's a hard job all 'round for that pay. Most people I meet in my daily life don't make 65K.. but who knows, maybe I'm behind the times.
kenny dorhamYou think 65k, for 2k hours per year, for a construction job is a "Bonanza".?
Likely a discussion so far removed from the subject of trains, that if we pursued it in sufficient detail, we would only irritate people. But yeah, where I am, unskilled "grunt" labor is in the $25-30K range, with moderately skilled jobs paying in the $43-47K range. Which led me to suspect the figure Urich was using must include some.....unpleasantry pay?
[quote user="Ulrich"]
kenny dorham You think 65k, for 2k hours per year, for a construction job is a "Bonanza".? That is what a person needs, to make a living, at any job. That is what i made, the last year i worked, in 2006. It is not a lot of money.
You think 65k, for 2k hours per year, for a construction job is a "Bonanza".? That is what a person needs, to make a living, at any job.
That is what i made, the last year i worked, in 2006. It is not a lot of money.
I'm not sure who called 65K a "bonanza".. (not me) but if the job remains unfilled then I would agree that 65K likley isn't enough. That's often the issue when there are no takers..Mind you they're drawing from a fairly small labor pool.. Fergus is small.. and the number of locals who can do heavy manual labor is further limited. That same job offered in metro Toronto (a far more expensive market) would likely be filled quickly at 65K due to the large pool of hard scrabble immigrants available.
Ulrich Oh well.. the good thing about being surrounded by stupidity is that it doesn't take much to shine in that environment. In my first job as a dock hand back in 88 I really impressed the powers that be with my ability to calculate the volume of stuff.. (even round stuff like cylinders).. somehow I don't think I would have gotten the same compliments from a room of software engineers.
Oh well.. the good thing about being surrounded by stupidity is that it doesn't take much to shine in that environment. In my first job as a dock hand back in 88 I really impressed the powers that be with my ability to calculate the volume of stuff.. (even round stuff like cylinders).. somehow I don't think I would have gotten the same compliments from a room of software engineers.
I worked for a mining company in the early 1980's. The shipping manager at one of our potash sites in New Mexico could walk into an airplane hanger size warehouse, look at the pile and tell you within about 5-10 carloads how much the warehouse held. Being able to do this is a cross between "gift" and experience.CW
BaltACD Flintlock76 zugmann golden handcuffs I can understand what Zug's talking about because in a way it happened to me. Too many years on the job and too much invested to just walk away. When I started doing copier repair it was a fun job with fun people. It was the first job I had in a long, long time where when the alarm clock went off in the morning I didn't greet the day with an obscenity. But, the last ten years the petty annoyances and the corporate BS began and the irritation level started going up and up. I had too much time in to just walk away and so did many of my collegues, it was "grin and bear it" until retirement time. Then I walked away and didn't look back. One other thing is involved as we age in our jobs and in a particular industry. For the most part we were young and dumb and we acknowledge those things to ourselves and look to the leadership of the job to gain knowledge about the job and about the industry. As we gain time and knowledge within the job and the industry we begin to question things that we are being instructed and/or ordered to do based on our own real world learned experiences on the job in the present day. We also find that those instructions or orders are not matching our perception of the real needs of the job as our personal experience gained over our employment history is indicating to us. The more 'disconnected' orders that we have to deal with that conflict with our real world experiences the more disgruntled of a employee we become; especially when we see today's leadership being younger and dumber than we were when we hired out.
Flintlock76 zugmann golden handcuffs I can understand what Zug's talking about because in a way it happened to me. Too many years on the job and too much invested to just walk away. When I started doing copier repair it was a fun job with fun people. It was the first job I had in a long, long time where when the alarm clock went off in the morning I didn't greet the day with an obscenity. But, the last ten years the petty annoyances and the corporate BS began and the irritation level started going up and up. I had too much time in to just walk away and so did many of my collegues, it was "grin and bear it" until retirement time. Then I walked away and didn't look back.
zugmann golden handcuffs
I can understand what Zug's talking about because in a way it happened to me. Too many years on the job and too much invested to just walk away.
When I started doing copier repair it was a fun job with fun people. It was the first job I had in a long, long time where when the alarm clock went off in the morning I didn't greet the day with an obscenity.
But, the last ten years the petty annoyances and the corporate BS began and the irritation level started going up and up. I had too much time in to just walk away and so did many of my collegues, it was "grin and bear it" until retirement time. Then I walked away and didn't look back.
One other thing is involved as we age in our jobs and in a particular industry.
For the most part we were young and dumb and we acknowledge those things to ourselves and look to the leadership of the job to gain knowledge about the job and about the industry. As we gain time and knowledge within the job and the industry we begin to question things that we are being instructed and/or ordered to do based on our own real world learned experiences on the job in the present day. We also find that those instructions or orders are not matching our perception of the real needs of the job as our personal experience gained over our employment history is indicating to us. The more 'disconnected' orders that we have to deal with that conflict with our real world experiences the more disgruntled of a employee we become; especially when we see today's leadership being younger and dumber than we were when we hired out.
Balt and Flintlock have pretty accurately summarized how I felt toward the end of my career.
I worked in logistics for 40 years and thoroughly enjoyed every minute of it till the last 3. The company - in their infinite wisdom - shipped a 27 year old Dutch MBA over here to direct our logistics function. He had never worked a day interacting with railroads or trucking companies, had zero understanding of service and rate issues and, was completely unwilling to learn. He came in "knowing" how he wanted to do things and would refuse to listen to anything we told him. Dealing with this guy was so frustrating there were many days I thought my head would explode. I firmly believe the 3 years I dealt with him took 12 years off my life.
When the company offered me a generous buyout package in 2019 it was as if three years of prayer had suddenly been answered.
I suspect the majority of us reach a point in our careers where dealing with stupid simply becomes intolerable.
CW
Ulrich the problem is Swift has been doing crap like this and worse for more than 30 years to their drivers and the entire industry. Swift literally lost their training school in Memphis for bribing license examination officials to give out CDLs in 2008. Over 5000 drivers had their CDLs suspended until they took a retest.
Balt, I had a way to deal with some of those foolish orders or requests verbally transmitted. I would write a reply confirming that I was going to 'obey' so that there was a written record. And especially, when appropriate, give copies to others, perhaps to the boss of the person who gave the order.
Shadow the Cats owner Ulrich most of the more experienced drivers leave the mega boy's as fast as humanly possible. They tend to find smaller carriers were drivers are treated like well human beings to start. I'm still in shock when we get a new driver in and he meets the owner of the company and on his contact list he is given is 2 different numbers one is the boss man's direct office line the other is his cellphone. They're also given their dispatchers company issued cellphone number for emergency needs. Just last week I had to play flight coordinator for a driver. His wife was involved in an accident at her job and put in the hospital. We flew him home to be with his family instead of being on the road and sent a replacement driver out to get his truck back to the yard. This man was one of our owner operators and we would have done the same thing for a company driver. We just hired a ex Swift driver that was fired while on hometime why Swift lost his dedicated contract and decided he didn't need to drive for them anymore. Then they tried to say he abandoned his truck at an unapproved location. His truck was parked at the old dedicated starting point. You gotta love the mega carriers.
Ulrich most of the more experienced drivers leave the mega boy's as fast as humanly possible. They tend to find smaller carriers were drivers are treated like well human beings to start. I'm still in shock when we get a new driver in and he meets the owner of the company and on his contact list he is given is 2 different numbers one is the boss man's direct office line the other is his cellphone. They're also given their dispatchers company issued cellphone number for emergency needs. Just last week I had to play flight coordinator for a driver. His wife was involved in an accident at her job and put in the hospital. We flew him home to be with his family instead of being on the road and sent a replacement driver out to get his truck back to the yard. This man was one of our owner operators and we would have done the same thing for a company driver. We just hired a ex Swift driver that was fired while on hometime why Swift lost his dedicated contract and decided he didn't need to drive for them anymore. Then they tried to say he abandoned his truck at an unapproved location. His truck was parked at the old dedicated starting point. You gotta love the mega carriers.
To be fair though (to use Swift as an example).. they run 16 thousand trucks, have a satisfactory DOT rating, and their safety rating is better than industry average. Sure they've got their issues, but we all do.. as soon as you've got more than a handful of employees you've got your rogue employee who makes poor decisions and represents the business in a negative manner. There's just no getting around that unless you can get away with employing no one. Swift (and the other big carriers) have become the de facto training school for the industry.. they will take someone with no experience and bring them along. Their much smaller competitors generally won't and can't do that.
Convicted One charlie hebdo Keep in mind that $65,000 Canadian is $51815 US. Still not bad, but.... Yeah, I did that, ...the disparity wasn't quite enough for a good joke, but I thought about it. The "golden handcuffs" observation made by Zug was, imo, pretty relevant. 20 years ago I was in a $61K/yr position that involved a high degree of specialty. And when that ended I was aghast at what prospective employers were willing to pay. Seemed like everyone wanted to hire "young and dumb". Of course there were jobs available that were so physically demanding that it was little mystery why they were ALWAYS hiring. But at 42 years old I wasn't interested in shortening my life 10 years, just for a paycheck.
charlie hebdo Keep in mind that $65,000 Canadian is $51815 US. Still not bad, but....
Yeah, I did that, ...the disparity wasn't quite enough for a good joke, but I thought about it.
The "golden handcuffs" observation made by Zug was, imo, pretty relevant. 20 years ago I was in a $61K/yr position that involved a high degree of specialty. And when that ended I was aghast at what prospective employers were willing to pay. Seemed like everyone wanted to hire "young and dumb".
Of course there were jobs available that were so physically demanding that it was little mystery why they were ALWAYS hiring. But at 42 years old I wasn't interested in shortening my life 10 years, just for a paycheck.
If you work in Canada your expenses are in Canadian dollars also..
Contrary to the conventional wisdom, many of us smaller businesses prefer older workers.. they tend to not get pregnant, and for the most part they already have realistic expectations.. pay off the mortgage, help the kids with college etc.. Of course, if your business is moving furniture you want squat muscular 20 to 30 year old men.. but for office work or light labor the 50 to 65 year old crowd is great.
See also: RR retirement "current connection" stuff. (Esp for those with spouses)
charlie hebdoKeep in mind that $65,000 Canadian is $51815 US. Still not bad, but....
Convicted One Ulrich It's a job seekers' market right now. it has been somewhat humorous seeing employer frustration in getting workers to return to low paying jobs. But $65K for general labor sounds like a bonanza. Enviro-hazard premium?
Ulrich It's a job seekers' market right now.
it has been somewhat humorous seeing employer frustration in getting workers to return to low paying jobs. But $65K for general labor sounds like a bonanza. Enviro-hazard premium?
Keep in mind that $65,000 Canadian is $51815 US. Still not bad, but....
I get that too.. it's hard to up and quit and start all over again elsewhere.
zugmann Ulrich Most don't because other opportunities beckon.. not a bad thing. I mean, if there were more smaller RRs that paid nearly what the class-1s did, I don't think people would stick around class 1s. But golden handcuffs, and there isn't much call for RRer skill outside of RRs.
Ulrich Most don't because other opportunities beckon.. not a bad thing.
I mean, if there were more smaller RRs that paid nearly what the class-1s did, I don't think people would stick around class 1s. But golden handcuffs, and there isn't much call for RRer skill outside of RRs.
In a more general sense your skills i.e. mechanical apptitude, problem solving ability etc are very transferrable. Most employers want people who a) show up for work,and b) can think on their feet to some extent. Anyone who can do those two things will always find work.. and good paying work most of the time.
Convicted One Well, I don't want to get too far off on a tangent, but frequently those "too good to be true" opportunities people flaunt when building their argument against the unemployed...you end up finding it's like for carrying 200 lb bundles through waist deep mud with some idiot screaming at you all day long to speed up. Meaning the job is "available" for good reason.
Well, I don't want to get too far off on a tangent, but frequently those "too good to be true" opportunities people flaunt when building their argument against the unemployed...you end up finding it's like for carrying 200 lb bundles through waist deep mud with some idiot screaming at you all day long to speed up. Meaning the job is "available" for good reason.
Yup.. for 65K it is likely hard work in tough conditions..
Convicted One Construction labourer.. Fergus, ON.. small town construction.. no takers yet i'm told. Ulrich It's a job seekers' market right now. it has been somewhat humorous seeing employer frustration in getting workers to return to low paying jobs. But $65K for general labor sounds like a bonanza. Enviro-hazard premium?
Construction labourer.. Fergus, ON.. small town construction.. no takers yet i'm told.
UlrichMost don't because other opportunities beckon.. not a bad thing.
zugmann Ulrich Yet they and their road warrior competitiors, Swift etc.. employ tens of thousands of people.. bad but not bad enough to quit.. Do any drivers stay once they get a couple years of experience in?
Ulrich Yet they and their road warrior competitiors, Swift etc.. employ tens of thousands of people.. bad but not bad enough to quit..
Do any drivers stay once they get a couple years of experience in?
Most don't because other opportunities beckon.. not a bad thing.
UlrichYet they and their road warrior competitiors, Swift etc.. employ tens of thousands of people.. bad but not bad enough to quit..
UlrichIt's a job seekers' market right now.
Convicted One Ulrich Yet they and their road warrior competitiors, Swift etc.. employ tens of thousands of people.. bad but not bad enough to quit.. Perhaps they should incorporate that into their hiring spiel? "Beats Starvation"...lol!
Perhaps they should incorporate that into their hiring spiel? "Beats Starvation"...lol!
Lots of options besides starvation. find something else or start a business..that's what I did when I had enough of working for the man. Nobody needs to starve. In this market there are lots of options.. almost everyone around here is hiring.. $65000/year for general laborers.. no experience required etc.. saw that this morning. It's a job seekers' market right now.. and if you've got skills you're absolutely golden.. No need to put up with lousy management or poor working conditions.. not now.
Yet they and their road warrior competitiors, Swift etc.. employ tens of thousands of people.. bad but not bad enough to quit..
Shadow the Cats owner Part of the problem with trying to get anyone from England or Swift to fill out this survey is this. They like people who have been there at least 1 years. The standing joke I always hear in the office is at the England means Every New Driver Leaves After Ninety Days. Swift has so many acronyms for their name including many unsafe for work it's not funny. There's a reason why certain carriers are called bottom feeders and they have earned it. Swift and England for their behavior towards driver's are in that bunch.
Part of the problem with trying to get anyone from England or Swift to fill out this survey is this. They like people who have been there at least 1 years. The standing joke I always hear in the office is at the England means Every New Driver Leaves After Ninety Days. Swift has so many acronyms for their name including many unsafe for work it's not funny.
There's a reason why certain carriers are called bottom feeders and they have earned it. Swift and England for their behavior towards driver's are in that bunch.
Don't forget Stevens Transport..
tree68 kgbw49 It is so disappointing to hear the stories of corporate culture that looks down on the people doing the actual work. Not that I am a pollyanna and expecting everything is all yippy-skippy and kumbaya all the time. But it sounds like the actual situation is much more guns than roses in terms of respecting the operating staff, and that is disturbing and disappointing. I've read in other venues and subject areas that the gap between upper level management and the worker bees is growing. I would opine that is reflected in the knowledge (or rather lack of) upper level management has of "boots on the ground" operations.
kgbw49 It is so disappointing to hear the stories of corporate culture that looks down on the people doing the actual work. Not that I am a pollyanna and expecting everything is all yippy-skippy and kumbaya all the time. But it sounds like the actual situation is much more guns than roses in terms of respecting the operating staff, and that is disturbing and disappointing.
I've read in other venues and subject areas that the gap between upper level management and the worker bees is growing. I would opine that is reflected in the knowledge (or rather lack of) upper level management has of "boots on the ground" operations.
I imagine it correlates well with the Gini Index.
kgbw49Sounds like UP left the words "Looking Out For Number" off the "One" locomotive. It is so disappointing to hear the stories of corporate culture that looks down on the people doing the actual work. Not that I am a pollyanna and expecting everything is all yippy-skippy and kumbaya all the time. But it sounds like the actual situation is much more guns than roses in terms of respecting the operating staff, and that is disturbing and disappointing.
It is so disappointing to hear the stories of corporate culture that looks down on the people doing the actual work. Not that I am a pollyanna and expecting everything is all yippy-skippy and kumbaya all the time.
But it sounds like the actual situation is much more guns than roses in terms of respecting the operating staff, and that is disturbing and disappointing.
Considering the 'aura' of the past 5 years in the USA - you would expect anything different?
kgbw49It is so disappointing to hear the stories of corporate culture that looks down on the people doing the actual work. Not that I am a pollyanna and expecting everything is all yippy-skippy and kumbaya all the time. But it sounds like the actual situation is much more guns than roses in terms of respecting the operating staff, and that is disturbing and disappointing.
Sounds like UP left the words "Looking Out For Number" off the "One" locomotive.
jeffhergert... A little story. About a year or two back a dispatcher, who had been a conductor on my district, was in the cafeteria of the HQ building. Some people who worked in the building, probably staff in the various non-operating business functions of the company, were talking about "train trash." He excused himself and asked them what they were talking about. "Train trash" meant the people, trainmen and engineers, who work the trains and yards. He reminded them that the "train trash" were the people that did the work that brought in the money for the company. Now those people weren't the big bosses or the decision makers in the company. Many have probably been purged in some of the PSR cost cutting moves. Still, I doubt they came up with the term on their own. I would guess they heard it from their bosses, who heard it from their bosses and so on. So why would morale be so low at some of the class ones? Jeff - Train Trash PS. Of course this dispatcher told his friends back home. Someone even made up T-shirts, but I don't have one.
A little story. About a year or two back a dispatcher, who had been a conductor on my district, was in the cafeteria of the HQ building. Some people who worked in the building, probably staff in the various non-operating business functions of the company, were talking about "train trash." He excused himself and asked them what they were talking about. "Train trash" meant the people, trainmen and engineers, who work the trains and yards. He reminded them that the "train trash" were the people that did the work that brought in the money for the company.
Now those people weren't the big bosses or the decision makers in the company. Many have probably been purged in some of the PSR cost cutting moves. Still, I doubt they came up with the term on their own. I would guess they heard it from their bosses, who heard it from their bosses and so on.
So why would morale be so low at some of the class ones?
Jeff - Train Trash
PS. Of course this dispatcher told his friends back home. Someone even made up T-shirts, but I don't have one.
The headquarters office types would have no difference in their job functions if they were working for a insurance company or a bank as it applies to their duties and work functions in working for a railroad. Paper shufflers (of course in today's office world they bit and byte shufflers).
charlie hebdo Is anyone surprised? Did BNSF, CN and CP participate? Hospitals and various emergency services are also 24/7 operations. (There were some healthcare corporations listed but sound like nursing homes and homecare.) Although in size, most are too small for survey, I wonder about their dissatisfaction levels. One constant thread is complaints about management. Someone wondered about people getting soft. Military folks grouse all the time, always have since Roman legions.
Is anyone surprised? Did BNSF, CN and CP participate?
Hospitals and various emergency services are also 24/7 operations. (There were some healthcare corporations listed but sound like nursing homes and homecare.) Although in size, most are too small for survey, I wonder about their dissatisfaction levels. One constant thread is complaints about management.
Someone wondered about people getting soft. Military folks grouse all the time, always have since Roman legions.
I believe the survey is independent of the corporations listed. If it was you could be sure the "winners" in the survey would not consent to it being published.
This is not new news, as someone pointed out. Nor is it the only survey out there because I've seen UP at only #3 in one. I do believe that this (12/20 date) is not the first year where some of the class ones have ranked so high.
It's not necessarily the crazy hours themselves. They make it clear during the hiring sessions. What's bad, and it mostly affects the conductors working pool and extra board assignments is that the boards are so thin. It started with the company keeping the boards thin because they are guaranteed boards. Now it's because they don't have any reserve left to augment the boards when they need to. This leads to the conductors working more, especially the pool (the pool is an unassigned, first-in/first out board that works through freight assignments) conductors.
The pool in the past was staffed so that they would get about 30 hours, give or take, off between runs at the home terminal. (Freight engineer's pool was about the same.) The extra board usually (as it's supposed to) would turn faster but still not necessarily always right on your rest. If you wanted more time off, you worked the pool. If you wanted to make money, you worked the extra board.
Now, the conductors are usually turning on their rest. Both Pool and extra board. With the requirement for 48/72 hours off if you've exceed 6/7 consecutive starts, it just makes the boards turn that much faster. No available extra boards means that any pool vacancies, like off sick, paid or unpaid personal leave, vacation, etc. don't get filled. That just moves up the next marked up conductor. I once had to wait 12 hours to go to work because there were no available, pool or extra board, conductors available. During that time a couple that were due to become rested (available) marked off. Because they had been working so much.
Now some are leaving the railroad partly because of the having no real time off. (They are guys who have 12 to 14 years in. Some are looking for other non class one opprotunites to stay in Railroad Retirement.) Couple that to the way management, local and higher up, look at and treat their work force. (One possibly positive. They have amended their attendence policy somewhat. It doesn't appear to as draconian as before, but we shall see.)
Working night shifts or long shifts isn't the issue, there are plenty of other 24/7 industries where you work 12 hours at a time, to say nothing of the fly in/fly out camp jobs that are common in remote areas like northern Canada.
The problems are working on call, the work/life balance (or lack thereof), the amount of time spent on layovers at away from home locations, and above all else the lack of respect, intimidation and bullying from management that has been present in one form or another for my entire working career, and I am given to understand that this goes back over 20 years at a minimum.
We could probably put up with any one or two of those things, but all of them at once is just too much. And it's getting worse again, not better.
It remains to be seen how smart the railroader unions are compared to those in other industries, but one must remember that we are up against a very powerful and well funded opponent in the form of Class I management. An opponent which takes every opportunity to game the system and has no respect for laws, regulations or contracts they have signed.
And all too often the government takes the company's side when push comes to shove. A union can only do so much in the face of this sort of opposition.
CN has been conducting internal employee surveys for about a year now, I think it's part of some new safety program with a fancy name that they spent a bunch of money on. They've tried to shine up the results and trumpet them in the internal company newsletter, but the real feedback isn't pretty.
They say the surveys resulted in a couple changes we wanted and some cuts reversed (like being allowed paper train lists again), but in reality all they did was make us fight to get something we already had, and they want us to think that's a win.
I haven't filled out a survey yet because you have to put your name to it and I don't trust them, but if I ever do I'm going to give them a piece of my mind about how they need to settle the giant pile of grievances and back off on discipline and harassment BEFORE they can even expect to begin a real respectful dialogue with the workforce.
BaltACD SD60MAC9500 Not a good look for the Class 1's ... https://finance.yahoo.com/news/17-worst-companies-america-170000191.html Between all the other negatives The most highlighted one was the realtity that railroads operate 24/7/365 and to do that many employees have to work other than 8-5 Monday to Friday.
SD60MAC9500 Not a good look for the Class 1's ... https://finance.yahoo.com/news/17-worst-companies-america-170000191.html
Not a good look for the Class 1's ...
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/17-worst-companies-america-170000191.html
Between all the other negatives
The most highlighted one was the realtity that railroads operate 24/7/365 and to do that many employees have to work other than 8-5 Monday to Friday.
I imagine it doesn't help if one get's furloughed as soon as they get hired on the extra board... The only industry when you get hired just to sit around wondering if you'll get called back.
Convicted One BaltACD For them 24 & 36 hour days are not unheard of and are not that unusual. Working 30 or 40 consecutive days without a day off are also not that unusual. Must be some GOOD vitamins!!
BaltACD For them 24 & 36 hour days are not unheard of and are not that unusual. Working 30 or 40 consecutive days without a day off are also not that unusual.
Must be some GOOD vitamins!!
In too many cases the 'vitamins' were 86 proof.
I was in The Painters Union in San Francisco for 30 years. I have always been a bit shocked when i hear about the Rail Unions.
This is all anecdotal on my part of course. But it seemed like they were not the most organized. It might be hard, with the distances they travel and the odd Hours/Days they work. I hope they can get their numbers aligned and correct some of the problems they have.
This is ONE article from a bad period of time in recent history...C-19... maybe things are not as bad as the article implies.? Either way, i wish my Railroad brothers all the best.!
BaltACDFor them 24 & 36 hour days are not unheard of and are not that unusual. Working 30 or 40 consecutive days without a day off are also not that unusual.
Railroaders complain as a pastime. But there used to be good with the bad. But lately, the bad has been outrunning the good. A lot of talent is leaving.
Last few years have been trying.
ronrunner How do the .MARINES Rank in this survey? Clearly we are turning into a nation of lazy basement dwellers I've been out of the picture a long time, the only constant is those who join the Corps don't do it for the money. The only rumblings of discontent I've heard lately is from the current Commandant getting rid of the Marine Corps tanks, the idea being to turn it into a more mobile rapid-reaction force. I hope he knows what he's doing! Not everyone's crazy about the idea. Marine enlisted tankers were offered the options of an early discharge, a shift to another military specialty, or an inter-service transfer to the Army. Officers were offered the same. I don't know about the enlisted guys but NO officers have taken the Army transfer option. (Probably because they don't want to have to buy all new uniforms!)
How do the .MARINES Rank in this survey? Clearly we are turning into a nation of lazy basement dwellers
I've been out of the picture a long time, the only constant is those who join the Corps don't do it for the money.
The only rumblings of discontent I've heard lately is from the current Commandant getting rid of the Marine Corps tanks, the idea being to turn it into a more mobile rapid-reaction force. I hope he knows what he's doing! Not everyone's crazy about the idea. Marine enlisted tankers were offered the options of an early discharge, a shift to another military specialty, or an inter-service transfer to the Army. Officers were offered the same. I don't know about the enlisted guys but NO officers have taken the Army transfer option. (Probably because they don't want to have to buy all new uniforms!)
BaltACDNon-contract employees in operations (Officials) are probably the closest to wage slaves of any employees as they are on a flat salary - at least those involved in 1st level Supervision. For them 24 & 36 hour days are not unheard of and are not that unusual. Working 30 or 40 consecutive days without a day off are also not that unusual. Complain and you get the response 'You were looking for a job when you came here - start looking again and don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out'.
Not so much anymore. Most of our managers seem to keep banker's hours anymore. Of course most of their RRing is done via Iphone.
Heck they even get regular days off.
Convicted One BaltACD railroads operate 24/7/365 and to do that many employees have to work other than 8-5 Monday to Friday. I think the "pool" nature of the crew call is a major part of the dissatisfaction. The call AT ANY TIME, and be here in an hour aspect, really leaves a lot to be desired. ...
BaltACD railroads operate 24/7/365 and to do that many employees have to work other than 8-5 Monday to Friday.
I think the "pool" nature of the crew call is a major part of the dissatisfaction. The call AT ANY TIME, and be here in an hour aspect, really leaves a lot to be desired.
...
Not all railroad employees are T&E operations that are in FIFO pools or any of dozens of other calling schemes that attempt to regularize the T&E working times. That being said - every craft that is involved in keeping Class 1 railroad operations operating are in the position that even if they have a 8 to 5 M-F regular job their services may be required to work outside of those normal hours.
Crafts such as Clerks, Signalman, Carmen, MofW employees, Mechanical Dept employees all have regular jobs that have regular hours and days worked - that being said - those regular hours and days worked will not necessarily be 8 to 5 M-F; they may be 5 AM to 1 PM Wednesday to Sunday or 9 PM to 5 AM Saturday to Thursday, or maybe weekly around the clock Relief Jobs - In the world of PSR railroading all employees are expected to work overtime when directed as PSR's main aim is to limit employee head count.
Non-contract employees in operations (Officials) are probably the closest to wage slaves of any employees as they are on a flat salary - at least those involved in 1st level Supervision. For them 24 & 36 hour days are not unheard of and are not that unusual. Working 30 or 40 consecutive days without a day off are also not that unusual. Complain and you get the response 'You were looking for a job when you came here - start looking again and don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out'.
These surveys were done last year, during the height of the pandemic.
Do you think there would be any changes in attitudes since then?
I won't try to come to the defense of any company. I do know that employee attitudes feed off each other. Once bad attitudes take root, it's very difficult to turn it around. New employees adopt the bad feelings of older complaining employees.
York1 John
Overmod Hey, Wayne, when do you think NS is going to reveal the results of Whitehead's survey, so we can discuss it here in this thread? I think Lily Tomlin's Ernestine would remember the answer...
Hey, Wayne, when do you think NS is going to reveal the results of Whitehead's survey, so we can discuss it here in this thread?
I think Lily Tomlin's Ernestine would remember the answer...
If that's so, then we may just see the results. But if the survey questions are worded so the answers they get are the ones they should get we probably never will. That happened with us too.
Too many corporate HQ's are la-la lands where the real world isn't welcome, and too many times those promoted up to corporate from the real world and try to bring reality with them aren't welcome for very long either. Sometime I think the philosophy is "If it wasn't for the damn customers and employees we could run this company exactly the way we want!"
But I suppose the above is true for any long-standing hide-bound organization of any kind. Human nature never changes.
Man, I haven't thought about Ernestine in years! She was a gas!
Flintlock76listed management issues as a major problem
Yes and the classic 1920's atmosphere of us vs them is in place as well (management vs employees). You run into that sometimes on the non-railroad side but my current employer.....not the case. I get Quarterly town halls with the CEO with Q&A, Twice yearly small round tables Skypes with the VP. Monthly one on one Skype sessions with my manager. They do not always take my suggestions but sometimes they do and enough times that I feel it is participatory management.
I don't think you will ever see a railroad do that unless it is a shortline.
I worked 4 twelves (in another industry) per week for a number of years, but always with the same days off, with (mostly) the same shifts, as a salaried employee, ....and really didn't mind the long hours, or the non-standard weekends. But being able to look forward to always having Tuesdays thru Thursdays off was a major factor in my happiness. Being able to plan forward with 90-95% certainty that I was gonna be able to stick to my personal plans made it worthwhile.
I went through a couple hiring sessions with Norfolk Southern, and when you need a job you make concessions with yourself, trying to justfy the personal sacrifice, in order to get a paycheck. But looking back now as a retiree, I'm actually glad that I never got the call to report for training.
I'm flexible, if they would have said "Hey look, you are gonna work 12 hour shifts, 5 days per week, and we decide which days will be your weekend, you will work holidays, but be given comp time off in the same week, but on a day ouf our choosing.....I would have been just fine with that.
But working an entire crew district as "an extra board" (which is the only thing they were offering) is insane.
And of course the other side of that being, not only can the phone ring at any time, but you also have to live with it when the phone doesn't ring at all.
BaltACDThe most highlighted one was the realtity that railroads operate 24/7/365 and to do that many employees have to work other than 8-5 Monday to Friday.
Survey is not a surprise to me and it is one of the reasons I choose against a railroad career back when I was in my 20's. I had a choice and I did my research via phones, letters and asking around. Just with the letters out of 10 attempts, 5 returns were railroad managers bitching at me, 2 were positive with patches, decals, etc returned (of those 2, one was the Milwaukee Road and it was bankrupt).......the other three boilerplate HR negatives.
IT consulting has those hours some of the time. However, your compensated for it in that you usually get paid $15,000-20,000 above market salary vs a non consulting position, they do put you in 4-5 star hotels generally, they pay a per diem higher than what the railroads pay. Typically your manager is smarter than you, though I had a few that were fairly stupid as well and should have given up with ambition after McDonald's team lead.
My perception of railroads formed initially back in the early 1980 when I first did my research in High School. Railroad Managers usually bitchy. Railroad employees seemed to be generally friendly but would rather not talk with outsiders (Vets are same way). Pay is OK to shitty unless you do over time (depends on if railroad is Class I and what your assignment is). Benefits better than average job but if you shop on the civilian side you can do better.......though you can't do better than railroad retirement vs SS. Customer facing usually limited to warehousemen or shipping dock manager. Rare you ever talk to a client Executive or someone near the top responsible for running the business you serve. Heavily unionized, leading to bouts of management vs employee paranoia, ridiculous union fueled rumors, some featherbedding work rules.
When I used to fly into KC from Dallas there were usually approx 4-6 BNSF Operations employees on the Monday flight flying in as well. They dressed professionally in business casual with the logo'd polo shirts even sometimes. Laptops and laptop software seemed to be up to date. They were also careful what they said and made sure you could not shoulder surf their screen most of the time.
Remember what I said about the "jungle telegraph" in the "Finding Train Crews" thread?
Well here it is, and on Yahoo no less.
Interesting how many of those places named listed management issues as a major problem. Obviously there's a problem but it's going to defy an easy fix.
Surprise, surprise, surprise........
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