Nevermind, I see Tree beat me to it on a page that did not display.
Enclosed auto-racks were more a response to an idiot with a brick on an overpass than they were to weather related damage claims.
CMStPnP You know I am surprised after transporting them in enclosed autocarriers they then store them in lots open to the weather outdoors at the transload facility subject to hail and all sorts of weather. You would think it would be more land use efficient to build a large sheltered parking garage but probably also very much more expensive.
You know I am surprised after transporting them in enclosed autocarriers they then store them in lots open to the weather outdoors at the transload facility subject to hail and all sorts of weather. You would think it would be more land use efficient to build a large sheltered parking garage but probably also very much more expensive.
One job I had fresh out of HS was as a porter for a company called Cordin Transport. We handled lease turn in vehicles. The yard was located in Dearborn across from Fords Rouge Complex. They had a ramp consisting of two tracks. We could fit possibly 12 racks at the most. I’ll never forget CN was still using a group of old Whitehead and Kales open racks to haul the used vehicles. Mind you this was in 2000. I had figured those would have been long retired. Which they finally did around 2003-2004?
One of the benefits of growing up near an auto assembly plant (Ford in Chicago) is seeing the autos moved from the plant to the loading area (truck and autorack). Company drivers would drive the vehicles to the loading area owned and operated by the trucking firm and get a ride back to the plant in trucking company van.
BackshopWrong, Balt is correct. I know people who do it in New Boston, MI.
The point should be better made, though, as you point out, that loading at a third-party facility would be likely be done by that facility's personnel, not the 'manufacturer' (or representatives of another owning or leasing company). In my opinion this is no different from having specialized yard drivers for intermodal transport as compared to having road drivers do specialized spotting or driving onto or off equipment.
This leads me to wonder how the driving into and out of those GM Cadillac 'containers' was handled. That was certainly a specialized skill! (As was what I've seen of trying to get the result, hanging in the air and swinging in various ways, onto a rail car!!)
Overmod I don't think I've ever heard of them being 'other' than employees of whoever is responsible for owning the cars at that point. For GM that would be GM employees, probably with some agreement with the rail car owner and facility management. Some of them clearly carrying that ol' Malbone Street professional production-line attitude over into git 'r dun cowboying...
I don't think I've ever heard of them being 'other' than employees of whoever is responsible for owning the cars at that point. For GM that would be GM employees, probably with some agreement with the rail car owner and facility management. Some of them clearly carrying that ol' Malbone Street professional production-line attitude over into git 'r dun cowboying...
I worked Penn Mary Yard in Baltimore when the GM Baltimore Assembly Plant was constructing Camaro's and Firebirds; Penn Mary was the B&O serving yard for the plant. GM personnel were the ones moving the vehicles from the end of the assembly line to a staging lot on the plants's property prior to them being loaded out - both truck and railcars. All I can say is the some buyers were getting vehicles that had been 'rode hard and put away wet' - from the sounds of 'happy tires' (Skip Barber Racing School saying - 'A squeeling tire is a happy tire') and the tire smoke from unhappy tires as well as the audible 'high revs' from the exhaust.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Overmod JPS1 Who drives the cars onto and off the auto rack cars? I don't think I've ever heard of them being 'other' than employees of whoever is responsible for owning the cars at that point. For GM that would be GM employees, probably with some agreement with the rail car owner and facility management. Some of them clearly carrying that ol' Malbone Street professional production-line attitude over into git 'r dun cowboying...
JPS1 Who drives the cars onto and off the auto rack cars?
JPS1Who drives the cars onto and off the auto rack cars? Would it be railroad employees or contractors?
At the Distribution Center location, Distribution Center employees are the drivers and make the DC liable for any damage they create.
In the framework of CSX, TDSI (the DC operator) is a wholely own subsidiary and works to its own profit and loss statements with its own employees.
JPS1Who drives the cars onto and off the auto rack cars?
CMStPnP You would think it would be more land use efficient to build a large sheltered parking garage but probably also very much more expensive.
All you need to do at a storage facility is keep them far enough from the fence to prevent a thrown rock from reaching them. (A gun would be a different issue). Lighting and a human presence (security patrols) also minimize the risk.
Insurance probably covers the "Acts of God."
On the rails, you have to protect them from thrown and dropped objects, not to mention access with rattlecans. And parts thieves.
Years ago, police in the village where I lived had to make sure they got out and checked the cars carefully in a lot where local car dealers stored their excess stock. Tire thieves would jack up the cars, steal the tires, then leave the cars on blocks so it appeared that they were all the same level...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
CMStPnP There is a huge auto transload facility here in Dallas on the Texas Eagle route just East of Dallas. Combo auto transload and intermodal container facility for UP. Have to hand it to UP they are not shy about consumming large tracts of land that facility has to be a few square miles minimum. In Wisconsin there is one near the former 7-mile Fair location and I think it belongs to UP as well (former C&NW) Massive lot of cars and a few feeder tracks for the autoracks.
There is a huge auto transload facility here in Dallas on the Texas Eagle route just East of Dallas. Combo auto transload and intermodal container facility for UP. Have to hand it to UP they are not shy about consumming large tracts of land that facility has to be a few square miles minimum. In Wisconsin there is one near the former 7-mile Fair location and I think it belongs to UP as well (former C&NW) Massive lot of cars and a few feeder tracks for the autoracks.
The site near 7-Mile Fair is an auto auction business with no rail service.
CMStPnP JPS1 I was at my favorite train watching spot today when a southbound BNSF auto rack train went by. The auto racks were empty. I believe the trains was headed to Mexico. It appeared to be the same train that I saw about five days ago headed north. When an auto rack train is loaded or unloaded, do they need to uncouple all the cars? Or can they drive the autos through the cars from one end to another to get from or to the last car in the string? There is a huge auto transload facility here in Dallas on the Texas Eagle route just East of Dallas. Combo auto transload and intermodal container facility for UP. Have to hand it to UP they are not shy about consumming large tracts of land that facility has to be a few square miles minimum. In Wisconsin there is one near the former 7-mile Fair location and I think it belongs to UP as well (former C&NW) Massive lot of cars and a few feeder tracks for the autoracks.
JPS1 I was at my favorite train watching spot today when a southbound BNSF auto rack train went by. The auto racks were empty. I believe the trains was headed to Mexico. It appeared to be the same train that I saw about five days ago headed north. When an auto rack train is loaded or unloaded, do they need to uncouple all the cars? Or can they drive the autos through the cars from one end to another to get from or to the last car in the string?
Mesquite is approximately 0.45 square miles total for IM and Vehicles (+/- 288 acres). The IM is almost all domestic (most international goes through Dallas Intermodal Terminal in Wilmer).
BaltACDI have no real idea of how much land area the CSX auto facilities at Twin Oaks, PA and Jessup, MD occupy - what I do know is that the trains that serice those facilities give them 90 loaded rail cars a day and needless to say release the same number of rail cars empty on a daily basis. With 10 to 18 vehicles per rail car, that is a whole lot of vehicles.
I have no real idea of how much land area the CSX auto facilities at Twin Oaks, PA and Jessup, MD occupy - what I do know is that the trains that serice those facilities give them 90 loaded rail cars a day and needless to say release the same number of rail cars empty on a daily basis. With 10 to 18 vehicles per rail car, that is a whole lot of vehicles.
JPS1I was at my favorite train watching spot today when a southbound BNSF auto rack train went by. The auto racks were empty. I believe the trains was headed to Mexico. It appeared to be the same train that I saw about five days ago headed north. When an auto rack train is loaded or unloaded, do they need to uncouple all the cars? Or can they drive the autos through the cars from one end to another to get from or to the last car in the string?
The drivers of the autos have to watch their speed, too. I can remember when the first loading ramp was built behind the South Shore embankment in Hegewisch, we could periodically hear reminders over the PA to slow down to about 5 MPH.
BaltACD Crews spotting up the unloading locations switch railcars so that groups of railcars have their vehicles facing in the same direction and also to have tri-levels together in a cut and bi-levels together in a cut. Depending upon how many different loading locations output end up at a particular unloading location - there can be a whole lot of switching involved in setting the ramp up for unloading.
Crews spotting up the unloading locations switch railcars so that groups of railcars have their vehicles facing in the same direction and also to have tri-levels together in a cut and bi-levels together in a cut. Depending upon how many different loading locations output end up at a particular unloading location - there can be a whole lot of switching involved in setting the ramp up for unloading.
You can also split cuts of cars that are in the same track and put the ramp in between them if needed.
Extra handbrakes are required on autoracks when they are spotted in the loading or unloading facilities, to eliminate slack-related movement, which could happen either from the air brakes leaking off or due to vibration from the vehicles driving through the railcars.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
When an auto rack train is loaded or unloaded, do they need to uncouple all the cars? Or can they drive the autos through the cars from one end to another to get from or to the last car in the string?
The end doors get opened and bridge plates are put in place to allow the gap between railcars to be negotiated by vehicles which can drive through the railcars.
At loading and unloading locations the track lengths are normally 10 cars or less in length. Vehicles are driven on in the forward direction and also driven off in the forward direction.
Unloading locations have multiple moveable ramp appratus that can be moved where necessary to permit the unloading of vehicles from any deck of a bi or tri level rack.
They just open up the end doors, lower the ramps and drive straight through multiple cars.
Another thing ignored here is the injury rate among carhauler drivers. I know at least 2 that retired due to on-job injuries. The next time that you see a car hauler at a dealership, watch how hazardous it is to enter cars and drive them off the upper level. If they do all the transporation of new vehicles, just think of the increase in injuries due to the greater number of trucks.
I was at my favorite train watching spot today when a southbound BNSF auto rack train went by. The auto racks were empty. I believe the trains was headed to Mexico. It appeared to be the same train that I saw about five days ago headed north.
Bruce D Gillings I still love the post about: Toyota Logistics Services awarding CSX the President's Award for Rail Logistics Excellence.
You shouldn't. If Toyota was truly unhappy with the railroad's services, they could have simply skipped giving out an award that year. Its seems that they are not unhappy.
An "expensive model collector"
charlie hebdoAs long as said battery is in your device, it's fine. A spare must be in your carry-on.
Yep.
tree68 BaltACD I don't have the answers or even the questions about what make Lithium Ion batterie fail with disaterous consequences. If you have LI batteries and you're flying, they have to be in your carry-on. And they aren't real fond of spares... All high voltage batteries in cars are marked, so we don't cut the wrong ones...
BaltACD I don't have the answers or even the questions about what make Lithium Ion batterie fail with disaterous consequences.
If you have LI batteries and you're flying, they have to be in your carry-on. And they aren't real fond of spares...
All high voltage batteries in cars are marked, so we don't cut the wrong ones...
As long as said battery is in your device, it's fine. A spare must be in your carry-on.
https://petapixel.com/2018/05/16/tsa-battery-restrictions-clearing-up-confusion-on-flying-with-lithium-ion/
BaltACDLithium Ion battery technology has yet to be FULLY MASTERED to be fully safe - even when the appropriate precautions have been taken.
I don't have the answers or even the questions about what make Lithium Ion batteries fail with disastrous consequences.
It is not hard to find them. There are even YouTube videos for the explosion-porn devotees... some of them masquerading as 'science experiments' of course, just like gratuitous carnivorous death or vicious internal parasites are presented as 'scientific'...
The wonder to me is that batteries built to a price and assembled by depressed Foxconn wage slaves have so little track record in halting and catching fire.
I am tempted to be snarky and say that if Tesla built cars like Fisker Karmas, they could ship them with the traction battery isolated and run them on and off the transporters with the sustained engine -- and charge them close to the actual 'point of purchase'. Still wouldn't preclude a chemical fire if someone shoots it, of course, but you don't get that accelerated thermal runaway from the charged aspect of the chemistry...
And all the phones that are carried on planes all have Lithium Ion batteries.
wasdCheck this out: https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaLounge/comments/i1ojo8/tesla_train_fire_in_north_platte_ne/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share So much for Tesla not using rail. They destroyed an autorack though.
https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaLounge/comments/i1ojo8/tesla_train_fire_in_north_platte_ne/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
So much for Tesla not using rail. They destroyed an autorack though.
Toasty!
Lithium Ion battery technology has yet to be FULLY MASTERED to be fully safe - even when the appropriate precautions have been taken. Therein it is somewhat like the railroads using welded rail - its about 99.998% safe, however, for welded rail - extreme weather happens, both hot and cold. I don't have the answers or even the questions about what make Litium Ion batterie fail with disaterous consequences.
Check this out:
azrail How do you teleport grain? Minerals? Propane?
How do you teleport grain? Minerals? Propane?
If the Musk fanboys are to be believed, Elon can do anything. (Insert sarcasm emoticon here.)
Gramp There's a new auto transfer distribution site being built at New Richmond, WI, east of the Twin Cities, along the CN line there. Quite a commitment to the use of autoracks.
There's a new auto transfer distribution site being built at New Richmond, WI, east of the Twin Cities, along the CN line there. Quite a commitment to the use of autoracks.
CN is also expanding its autoramp in Flint, MI at GM’s Bus Truck plant. Yet according to OP autoracks will be gone because of Tesla....
Kalmbach IT - enemy of the Trains forum.
Hughes Net. Works ok but is a bit slow and if clouds arrive they block the signal. They are currently installing cable on our gravel road that only has 2 homes in a half mile. A bit rural. I changed my password but it rejects it yet today I tried my old one and got in to the NEWS but got booted when I clicked on the Forum. Re-entered the new one and double clicked and got in. So, I'll try again later after I get the 5 acres of green stuff mowed and see how it goes.
Overmod BOB WITHORN Only if I can get Trains to except my login, boy is that a project. Specifically what problem do you have? Are you required to use some weirdly-kludged or proprietary browser that does cookie support weirdly?
BOB WITHORN Only if I can get Trains to except my login, boy is that a project.
Specifically what problem do you have? Are you required to use some weirdly-kludged or proprietary browser that does cookie support weirdly?
A couple/few weeks ago, trains.com changed the Web site in some way and a lot of us were having trouble logging in.
You can contact trains.com for support, but what they told me at the time was to delete browsing history. You can figure out from doing a Web search on whatever kind of browser -- Edge, Chrome, Safari, Firefox -- you are using. Unfortunately, you may lose the shortcut to type in a couple letters and bring up your other Web sites you usually visit. That is, until you revisit those sites and it gets entered in the system.
I tried deleting browser history, and that didn't work for me either at the time, but if finally worked when the changes at trains.com finally settled down. So deleting at least some if not your whole browser history should bring you back.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
BOB WITHORNOnly if I can get Trains to except my login, boy is that a project.
Maybe they can dredge the Welland canal so Detroit can direct load/unload the auto ships? Only need to maybe triple the size of the locks and dredge the Detroit River, raise the bridges, etc. then they won't need auto racks.
Only if I can get Trains to except my login, boy is that a project.
BOB WITHORNstuck using satellite for internet.
At least on the Forums it only takes a couple of minutes dodging attack ads to edit a typo when you see one.
Oh, and hello everyone, stuck using satellite for internet. Not on here much.
, if it thinks it might possibly rain maybe sometime sort-a, I have no internet. Positive side I can spend he time trackside in Elkhart or Granger or South Bend.
A bit late on this, but the 86' box did not go away because of the truck. Trucks gain is due to 'JUST IN TIME' delivery. Auto makers require suppliers to locate 'Next Door' now. Even Flint, Mi plants but trucks didn't get that. Metal Fab. plant stamps the parts and puts them on overhead conveyer that moves them to the metal prep plant then moves them to the paint plant before moving to the final assy plant, (crew cab GM pickups). Before that, box cars moved the body panels with in the several hundred acre complex, they even moved the V8 engines to the assembly plant and the were next to each other. When GM dumped what is now the Tesla calif. plant, the daily auto parts train from Flint to Calif. stopped and so did the 86' box which was created primarily for that business. As long as we import autos there will be auto racks. Sorry if I'm repeating what some of what you have already posted.
Backshop narig01 I'm kind of late to this and I'm throwing stuff out there. So: Some years back Swift was using 53' RoadRailers to deliver BMW's, 3 to a trailer. The revenue was high enough to only deliver 3 per. BMW as Self driving cars could potentially drive themselves around vehicle distribution centres. Right onto the car carrier. And as an added bonus could also drive themselves to the dealer from the factory. Carhaulers with sleeper cabs. There are many out there. Peterbilt IIRC sells them right out of the factory. A few points---Swift is the laughingstock of the trucking industry. Do a Youtube search using "Swift accidents". They have barely trained drivers. There are "some" sleeper cab trucks--not many. Peterbilt is a premium brand so aren't owned by a lot of trucking companies. The sleeper and long hood cut down on capacity.
narig01 I'm kind of late to this and I'm throwing stuff out there. So: Some years back Swift was using 53' RoadRailers to deliver BMW's, 3 to a trailer. The revenue was high enough to only deliver 3 per. BMW as Self driving cars could potentially drive themselves around vehicle distribution centres. Right onto the car carrier. And as an added bonus could also drive themselves to the dealer from the factory. Carhaulers with sleeper cabs. There are many out there. Peterbilt IIRC sells them right out of the factory.
I'm kind of late to this and I'm throwing stuff out there. So:
Some years back Swift was using 53' RoadRailers to deliver BMW's, 3 to a trailer. The revenue was high enough to only deliver 3 per. BMW as
Self driving cars could potentially drive themselves around vehicle distribution centres. Right onto the car carrier. And as an added bonus could also drive themselves to the dealer from the factory.
Carhaulers with sleeper cabs. There are many out there. Peterbilt IIRC sells them right out of the factory.
A few points---Swift is the laughingstock of the trucking industry. Do a Youtube search using "Swift accidents". They have barely trained drivers.
There are "some" sleeper cab trucks--not many. Peterbilt is a premium brand so aren't owned by a lot of trucking companies. The sleeper and long hood cut down on capacity.
Swift has a better than average safety rating..check it out for yourself at the FMCSA website, safersys. They run 16000 trucks and 20000 drivers.. given those numbers they're bound to have some youtube hits. To a large extent, Swift, Werner, and a few others have become the de facto training schools of the industry..
RKFarmsSo when we have self driving cars there will be a car pulling out of SIA onto Indiana 38 every 30 seconds or so and taking itself somewhere?
Remember that most of this is not only hypothetical, it is in the spirit (and making the assumptions) of the original troll.
These cars will do short-headway drafting (what 'platooning' is for trucks) and hence traffic will move in the traffic-light cycle or ramp exit of the plant or storage lot(s) concerned. I don't really expect mass moves will be necessary except at new-model or promotion time, and I sincerely doubt traffic on 38 is extreme in the wee hours of the morning when 'dispatch happens'. Loading to bulk carrier, whether truck or rail, can happen asynchronously, too, with the vehicles not necessarily going direct in large numbers to staging points from which they more conveniently JIT converge for quick loading and securement.
What about plants with much higher output?[/quote]Presumably by the time you get to that point the economics for shuttle, and probably block rail, are effective even if the plant is not designed with close or direct rail access. I don't see development of autonomous cars ramping up that quickly until the current 'crossover' and other alternative to sedan craze is over... does Musk's electric Hummer even fit in a regular autorack?
Maybe in urban areas cars might be able to be dispatched from dealers to customers but even that seems unlikely..
... and I don't think I will live to see the day that a self driving vehicle will be able to get to my home far back off a gravel road.
Remember, only the first half of the autorack-replacement scenario involved the familiar-by-now electric drive. Autonomous control is the "game-changer" and you don't need a sleeper... in fact, you don't need any projection in front of the trailer bays at all... for an autonomous tractor, whether electric or hybrid. Heck, even Kneiling put his little gas turbines under the floor...
Backshop1. I'm not "older" and 2. that just the way it's always been around here.
"older" is subjective.
Some new cars used to have "full tank of gas" listed on their window sticker. Don't know how many do anymore.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
So when we have self driving cars there will be a car pulling out of SIA onto Indiana 38 every 30 seconds or so and taking itself somewhere? That doesn't sound too great. And what about plants with much higher output? I can't really see self driving cars changing delivery that much. Maybe in urban areas cars might be able to be dispatched from dealers to customers but even that seems unlikely, and I don't think I will live to see the day that a self driving vehicle will be able to get to my home far back off a gravel road.
There will be evolution in how cars and parts are moved, but rail will be a part of that for a long time.
PR
BaltACDI have 'thought' I knew what I wanted - however, once I put my ass in the seat and put the vehicle through its paces my mind was changed, it was time to move on and devise another selection.
Always true - trial and error. But it looked good on paper!
zugmann I read that a lot of salespeople will fill the new cars up on their dime - esp for older buyers, just because they'll never hear the end of it if they don't. My used truck had brand new tires - so I was happy with that.
I read that a lot of salespeople will fill the new cars up on their dime - esp for older buyers, just because they'll never hear the end of it if they don't.
My used truck had brand new tires - so I was happy with that.
Always full on mine in the Detroit area.
I've purchased nine new cars of several marques over the years in several states, and all had full fuel tanks.
Paul of Covington BaltACD zugmann Paul of Covington But who refuels them when the trip is over about 300 miles? Lots of places don't fill the tanks when you buy a car anymore. Don't think I ever got a full tank in any of the cars I have bought for over 50 years. I bought a new Toyota two years ago and was very surprised to find that it had a full tank. (First time ever!)
BaltACD zugmann Paul of Covington But who refuels them when the trip is over about 300 miles? Lots of places don't fill the tanks when you buy a car anymore. Don't think I ever got a full tank in any of the cars I have bought for over 50 years.
zugmann Paul of Covington But who refuels them when the trip is over about 300 miles? Lots of places don't fill the tanks when you buy a car anymore.
Paul of Covington But who refuels them when the trip is over about 300 miles?
Lots of places don't fill the tanks when you buy a car anymore.
Don't think I ever got a full tank in any of the cars I have bought for over 50 years.
I bought a new Toyota two years ago and was very surprised to find that it had a full tank. (First time ever!)
Interesting. Have bought six new and one used vehicles over the years and every one had a full tank of gas when I picked it up. Maybe its a regional thing.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
tree68 Backshop It takes me less than an hour to buy a car. Nowadays you can do a lot of research before you get to the dealer.
Backshop It takes me less than an hour to buy a car.
Nowadays you can do a lot of research before you get to the dealer.
I have 'thought' I knew what I wanted - however, once I put my ass in the seat and put the vehicle through its paces my mind was changed, it was time to move on and devise another selection.
BackshopIt takes me less than an hour to buy a car.
zugmann Backshop What I don't understand is all the people who supposedly don't have the time to go and buy a new car. If you can't take a few hours to make your second biggest purchase, you either have screwed up priorities or are working way too many hours. Or the car buying process sucks. And if you know what you want - why bother with the hassle?
Backshop What I don't understand is all the people who supposedly don't have the time to go and buy a new car. If you can't take a few hours to make your second biggest purchase, you either have screwed up priorities or are working way too many hours.
Or the car buying process sucks. And if you know what you want - why bother with the hassle?
BaltACDDon't think I ever got a full tank in any of the cars I have bought for over 50 years.
I did once in a used truck - but that was an old-school dealer.
Ulrich Paul of Covington Backshop Yeah, I can just see customers complaining when their self delivered "new" car shows up with 2000 miles on the odometer. Tell them it's pre-broken-in at no extra charge. But who refuels them when the trip is over about 300 miles? Maybe if Amazon sells them they could be delivered by drone. If they can drive themselves then surely they can refuel themselves too..
Paul of Covington Backshop Yeah, I can just see customers complaining when their self delivered "new" car shows up with 2000 miles on the odometer. Tell them it's pre-broken-in at no extra charge. But who refuels them when the trip is over about 300 miles? Maybe if Amazon sells them they could be delivered by drone.
Backshop Yeah, I can just see customers complaining when their self delivered "new" car shows up with 2000 miles on the odometer.
Yeah, I can just see customers complaining when their self delivered "new" car shows up with 2000 miles on the odometer.
Tell them it's pre-broken-in at no extra charge.
But who refuels them when the trip is over about 300 miles?
Maybe if Amazon sells them they could be delivered by drone.
If they can drive themselves then surely they can refuel themselves too..
Amazon drones will deliver them! And if you are Prime member the shipping is free.
BackshopWhat I don't understand is all the people who supposedly don't have the time to go and buy a new car. If you can't take a few hours to make your second biggest purchase, you either have screwed up priorities or are working way too many hours.
What I don't understand is all the people who supposedly don't have the time to go and buy a new car. If you can't take a few hours to make your second biggest purchase, you either have screwed up priorities or are working way too many hours.
They have the time but would prefer to do other things with it. I don't want to hang out at a car dealership... would much rather sleep in or pursue a hobby.
Broke in at 2000 miles.. no big deal.
Marginal cost of operating an autonomous car from factory to 'point of acceptance' is not only lower than the cost by electric truck net of infrastructure expenses ... it is likely lower than the pro rata cost to finance and maintain it.
And the cars are just as likely to gang-drive to a railhead and park themselves if going somewhere in sufficient masse to warrant crrier: precisely the same logic applies to shorter-run or distributed destination as you're using for truck vs. legacy rail. It's like the Rotterdam example but without the need for trucks at all; the cars can even run in full cocoon except for sensors.
Pre-discounted for the extra miles run, if that is a concern. The Carvana approach is probably best for last-mile, because the truck is one-on-one (and should nicely adjust to an Amazon-style BEV or hybrid-electric chassis) if keeping odometers low is important. But that's different from 'commodity' long-distance car carriers, or specialty providers like Horseless Carriage for which rail couldn't be a practical option in the first place.
And when teleportation becomes available, we won't even need cars.
"Beam me up Scotty!"
csxns ttrraaffiicc deliver themselves. From the looks of things, it won't be long until rail is shut out of the automotive sector entirely. Add trucks to that if cars can deliever themselves.
ttrraaffiicc deliver themselves. From the looks of things, it won't be long until rail is shut out of the automotive sector entirely.
Add trucks to that if cars can deliever themselves.
Russell
I think one thing that is missing from the discussion here is the fact that once cars are able to drive themselves there won't be any need for autoracks as the cars can literally deliver themselves. From the looks of things, it won't be long until rail is shut out of the automotive sector entirely.
Look at the Tesla Model .. show rooms in shopping areas with a few models to test drive. Then you order off a web page to have it delivered.
SD60MAC9500 NorthWest I highly recommend watching the whole presentation if you have the time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxUnryZuy8g&feature=emb_logo Continuing the same business model will be increasingly unviable as the shipping industry trends towards smaller shipments moving shorter distances. Shifting the business model to account for these changes is possible, however. They say automotive traffic is declining.. Saying Automotive is very broad as that cover autoparts as well. I imagine their graph combine both parts and finished autos, etc, which would give trucking greater market share. Rail still dominates the market when it comes to finished autos. Autopart traffic has been on the decline in boxcar service for years this is nothing new. I'd like to see their breakdown of autoparts shipped by intermodal.
NorthWest I highly recommend watching the whole presentation if you have the time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxUnryZuy8g&feature=emb_logo Continuing the same business model will be increasingly unviable as the shipping industry trends towards smaller shipments moving shorter distances. Shifting the business model to account for these changes is possible, however.
I highly recommend watching the whole presentation if you have the time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxUnryZuy8g&feature=emb_logo
Continuing the same business model will be increasingly unviable as the shipping industry trends towards smaller shipments moving shorter distances.
Shifting the business model to account for these changes is possible, however.
They say automotive traffic is declining.. Saying Automotive is very broad as that cover autoparts as well. I imagine their graph combine both parts and finished autos, etc, which would give trucking greater market share. Rail still dominates the market when it comes to finished autos. Autopart traffic has been on the decline in boxcar service for years this is nothing new. I'd like to see their breakdown of autoparts shipped by intermodal.
[quote user="Balt
Ulrich Juniata Man As much as I dislike "the dance" that's involved when walking into a dealership to purchase a new vehicle; it is incomprehensible to me to purchase a vehicle on line and have it show up in my driveway without having test driven it. Heck; I won't even purchase a new pair of walking shoes on line as I like trying them on before buying. And I realize cars and shoes purchased on line can be returned but, there are some things I need to actually "experience" before pulling the trigger on buying. Better return policies would fix that.. and perhaps one would be able to take the car for a "virtual" spin before buying it..
Juniata Man As much as I dislike "the dance" that's involved when walking into a dealership to purchase a new vehicle; it is incomprehensible to me to purchase a vehicle on line and have it show up in my driveway without having test driven it. Heck; I won't even purchase a new pair of walking shoes on line as I like trying them on before buying. And I realize cars and shoes purchased on line can be returned but, there are some things I need to actually "experience" before pulling the trigger on buying.
As much as I dislike "the dance" that's involved when walking into a dealership to purchase a new vehicle; it is incomprehensible to me to purchase a vehicle on line and have it show up in my driveway without having test driven it. Heck; I won't even purchase a new pair of walking shoes on line as I like trying them on before buying.
And I realize cars and shoes purchased on line can be returned but, there are some things I need to actually "experience" before pulling the trigger on buying.
Better return policies would fix that.. and perhaps one would be able to take the car for a "virtual" spin before buying it..
Virtual - as real as it may seem - IS NOT REAL
You don't get the feel of the real ergonomics from a virtual representation.
[/quote]
Not yet! It's just a matter of time..
BaltACD Not yet!. It's just a matter of time. Ulrich Juniata Man As much as I dislike "the dance" that's involved when walking into a dealership to purchase a new vehicle; it is incomprehensible to me to purchase a vehicle on line and have it show up in my driveway without having test driven it. Heck; I won't even purchase a new pair of walking shoes on line as I like trying them on before buying. And I realize cars and shoes purchased on line can be returned but, there are some things I need to actually "experience" before pulling the trigger on buying. Better return policies would fix that.. and perhaps one would be able to take the car for a "virtual" spin before buying it.. Virtual - as real as it may seem - IS NOT REAL You don't get the feel of the real ergonomics from a virtual representation.
Not yet!. It's just a matter of time.
Most of the online car selling services that advertise so heavily seem to be dealing in used cars. Picking a used car off a website seems to be a high-risk decision to me since I can't independently verify the "facts" in the attached blurb.
Right. Why pay for all the overhead and profit margins of a middle man (dealer)? Even now, a large and increasing portion of dealers' new car sales are from online. They get the vehicle you want from another dealer or the manufacturer's stock. Fewer and fewer folks buy a car straight off the lot.
As to the original post, I sure see a lot of autoracks on the UP.
Overmod More buggy-whip assumptions.
Two of my acquaintances have bought used cars from Carvana. They shopped on-line, ordered what they wanted, and viola it was delivered. Moreover, my local Toyota dealer offers the same option. I could go on-line, pick out a vehicle, organize the details on-line or over the phone, and have the car delivered.
The service is still in its infancy.. I'm sure online shopping and delivery to your door services will improve greatly over the coming five years. It may not seem that way though because consumer expectations will continue to go up accordingly. Just look at the home pizza delivery biz.. Once upon a time we had to actually CALL the pizza joint to place an order.. now we just go online, and most places will give you a a detailed minute by minute update on how your pizza is progressing. Yet still we fret about not having it in our hands sooner.. maybe drones can get the finished product to us even faster? It will be the same with everything else. Need a new shirt? Hmm.. why isn't it here yet when I placed the order over 20 minutes ago? Among the universe of products and services that are available at our disposal nothing exists to temper consumer expectations... the better things get the more and faster we want them.
Ulrich Would be great to order our customized vehicles on line and then have them show up on their own in our driveways.
Would be great to order our customized vehicles on line and then have them show up on their own in our driveways.
I have two items on order right now that are waaaay late to be delivered and the tracking info only lists that they got shipped (different vendors, different delivery companies) last month. It is bad enough that one of these items was $460, but if I am going to spend $20,000 to $60,000+ on a product, it had better be on display in a show room and I can drive it away myself upon payment!
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
I do not believe you will see driverless trucks, buses, or cars, on the national general highway and street system, in your lifetime. Too many legal and safety issues. Just as the perfect laptop that never errors is still to arrive. Automatic and self-driving operation, yes to improve safety, but still with a licensed driver on board.
UlrichMaybe in five or ten years from now nobody will be hauling cars.. the cars will be able to drive themselves to the showroom floor.
Backshop One other thing to consider about hauling cars by truck OTR is the lack of sleeper cabs. Carhaulers are special models with lower cabs and shorter hoods. They have to be to haul as many cars as they do. None of them have sleeper cabs, other than the ones that haul a much smaller number of show/high value cars. Putting all those drivers up in motel rooms, if you can find them, really adds to the cost of business.
One other thing to consider about hauling cars by truck OTR is the lack of sleeper cabs. Carhaulers are special models with lower cabs and shorter hoods. They have to be to haul as many cars as they do. None of them have sleeper cabs, other than the ones that haul a much smaller number of show/high value cars. Putting all those drivers up in motel rooms, if you can find them, really adds to the cost of business.
Maybe in five or ten years from now nobody will be hauling cars.. the cars will be able to drive themselves to the showroom floor.
[quote user="Bruce D Gillings"]
ttrraaffiicc You could have said this about numerous industries that had high output many years ago. Most industries, especially consumer-oriented ones, have gone to majority trucks. There isn't any difference in auto transport. Well said by ttrraaffiicc. At one time virtually every industry in the nation used railroading for most shipping. One by one, trucking has taken that traffic away from rail. To think that it won't happen to automotive, or is not already happening, is to ignore history and its lessons. Railroading needs to change and become a customer-centric service industry. Or the decline will accelerate.
You could have said this about numerous industries that had high output many years ago. Most industries, especially consumer-oriented ones, have gone to majority trucks. There isn't any difference in auto transport.
Well said by ttrraaffiicc. At one time virtually every industry in the nation used railroading for most shipping. One by one, trucking has taken that traffic away from rail. To think that it won't happen to automotive, or is not already happening, is to ignore history and its lessons. Railroading needs to change and become a customer-centric service industry. Or the decline will accelerate.
Railroads have been changing their markets as necessary ever since the first 6 barrels of flour were shipped from Ellicott City, MD to Baltimore as the B&O's first revenue freight shipment. For better or worse, today's Class 1 railroads are not seeking out car load shippers - they are seeking out train load shippers. The train loads that the Class 1's are oprating would, in may cases, require a thousand or more trucks to haul the designated amount of product.
When I travel long distances, I normally depart at approximately Midnight and drive through the night when traffic is light to non-existant. However, when it comes time to make a 'pit stop' at a Rest Area on the Interstate, if I am towing my race car and trailer, it becomes next to impossible to find a parking place for all the trucks that are taking their Log Book Rest Period in the Rest Area. Most states have now errected computer signs to note the number of truck parking spaces that are available at the Rest Areas.
Somehow, I don't think the States really understood the demand upon Rest Area space that the computerized log book would generate. Rest Areas approacing 'big' cities are the ones that are filled up the most - drivers getting 'full rest' before going to their delivery locations and then getting whipsawed and delayed by personnel at the delivery location. Once they come off 'rest' the computer clock starts ticking.
[quote user="ttrraaffiicc"]
NorthWestContinuing the same business model will be increasingly unviable as the shipping industry trends towards smaller shipments moving shorter distances. Shifting the business model to account for these changes is possible, however.
Possible, but unlikely. This downwards trajectory is nothing new.
The unfortunate part is that this doesn't take into account the disruption caused by new trucking technologies.
On the topic of auto transport though, the presentation confirms that rail's market share of vehicle transport is weak and that trucks carry out the majority of vehicle transportation for automakers.
MARTIN STATION As someone who has worked at an auto plant, I could not imagine shipping vehicles without doing so by rail. I don't know if we could find enough trucks to move everything we made, not to mention the road congestion at the plant and local highways and interstates especially with the perpetual road construction. And arriving parts are always running behind in the winter snow storms, much more by truck than rail.
daveklepper Just arrived on my in-box, affecting truck reliablity, from the Orlando Sentinal: All lanes blocked north on SR 429 where semi flips near Turnpike A driver was transported to the hospital following an accident Wednesday morning involving an overturned semi truck off State Road 429 at the entrance to Florida’s Turnpike blocking all S.R. 429 northbound lanes.
Just arrived on my in-box, affecting truck reliablity, from the Orlando Sentinal:
Gramp Gad, talk about Amazon. Fulfillment and delivery centers going in all over it seems. And air freight, too. Not a rail or tie in sight.
Gad, talk about Amazon. Fulfillment and delivery centers going in all over it seems. And air freight, too. Not a rail or tie in sight.
Yet on a recent trip to Deshler I saw dozens of of Amazon Prime containers riding on the rails...
Efficiency, labor and fuel, is reflected in the prices charged for shippers. In the end, rail has the ability to provide just as reliable service as truckers do. If they make the effort.
Please remove.
The problem is that fuel efficiency doesn't mean a crap to a shipper. He's concerned with getting a suitable level of service and security for the lowest price that provides it. Unless the 'efficiency gains' translate into dollars they don't matter, and moreover if the QoS isn't there, or in fact gets worse, no amount of discounting that covers your OR may avail you.
Now it is true that shippers are acutely aware of surcharges and other inefficiency-excusing fees and costs. Unlike truck lines or 'freight forwarders' he cannot casually pass along higher factor costs -- 'the buck starts there'. But if (as so many are increasingly concerned) the " "economies" of fake PSR drop aggregate revenue below comfortably-numb cherry-picking to lazy full asset utilization at austerely-nanipulated OR... there will be problems, and to the extent there are better road alternatives that can be made cost-effective enough with better QoS and less condescension you will indeed see many current rail customers 'jump ship never to return' until the railroad paradigm changes... and it will be very, very hard even with dedicated and effective railroad employees to get many of them 'back' again.
We agree. A good overall, all our existing customers and looking for new ones, marketing stragtergy is needed. Judging from the posted interfview, CN already has it. Who will be next? Will BNSF partner with Hunt? Can KCS find a partner or go into trucking? And the others?
daveklepper Ulrich and others have completely forgotten the savings in energy and in labor that steel wheel on steel rail has over rubber on asphalt or concrete. In terms of energy efficiency, varying with grade, curveture, wind, etc. rail is about three to five times as efficient as road. If trucks were autonomous without any labor, then the vast productivity of a 1200 foot freight train over 200 feet most of truck cab, trailer, second and third trailers, would be negated. I don't expect driverless automatic operation of road vehicles in the lifetime of anyone living today. Automatic operation, maybe, with with a driver present as on all real automated isolated rapid transit systems. Even aiport people-movers have a central control desk to monitor operations by one person. I think Hunt understands this, even if you don't. BNSF doesn't need to compete with itself with over-the-road trucking. It does need a smarter marketing plan, wherein just as Hunt essentially sells BNSF services to its customers by its use of BNSF intermodal, so BNSF should make use of Hunt when it is obvious road will better meet a particular customere's need. Meanwhile, CN does own trucking companies with licenses to operate in the USA and seems to now have marketing smarts. Bet they are already shifting some traffic from rail to road where appropriate, as well as doing the reverse.
Ulrich and others have completely forgotten the savings in energy and in labor that steel wheel on steel rail has over rubber on asphalt or concrete.
In terms of energy efficiency, varying with grade, curveture, wind, etc. rail is about three to five times as efficient as road.
If trucks were autonomous without any labor, then the vast productivity of a 1200 foot freight train over 200 feet most of truck cab, trailer, second and third trailers, would be negated. I don't expect driverless automatic operation of road vehicles in the lifetime of anyone living today. Automatic operation, maybe, with with a driver present as on all real automated isolated rapid transit systems. Even aiport people-movers have a central control desk to monitor operations by one person.
I think Hunt understands this, even if you don't. BNSF doesn't need to compete with itself with over-the-road trucking. It does need a smarter marketing plan, wherein just as Hunt essentially sells BNSF services to its customers by its use of BNSF intermodal, so BNSF should make use of Hunt when it is obvious road will better meet a particular customere's need.
Meanwhile, CN does own trucking companies with licenses to operate in the USA and seems to now have marketing smarts. Bet they are already shifting some traffic from rail to road where appropriate, as well as doing the reverse.
I didn't forget about the efficiency of steel wheel on rail... in fact I stated that railways are far from done. All I said in a nutshell was that railroads need to start thinking as multimodal transportation vendors instead of simply flogging one mode and only taking care of some of their customers' needs. Ideally all customers would prefer one or a small number of vendors who can do it all. They don't want to partner with 100 vendors, with each one having only a narrow area of specialty. Which would be better? Vendor1: Can do rail shipments throughout the eastern US.. Two: a vendor who can do truck and rail throughout North America and to and from everywhere else on the planet? Number 2 would be better.. they can do more for the customer, and their value in the marketplace would be correspondingly higher.
Amazon built their Edmonton, AB facility literally across the street from CP's future expanded intermodal terminal site. Of course, it is also a 10 minute drive away from our airport, and 20 minutes away from CN's intermodal terminal, which is itself surrounded by other relatively new warehouses and distribution centres without direct rail access.
I have yet to see an automated warehouse that is rail-specific. And I really don't any time soon, because little of that equipment can handle containers directly on rail vehicles. Instead you have random truck access to docks and gates, with the automatic loading and dunning equipment working essentially in controlled environment under roof, but all the trucks can subsequently stage for efficient and rapid load at an actual, logical concentration point located where actual railroads can provide efficient forwarding.
For a long while BMW (before they built large numbers of vehicles here) used only European-style soft-sided trucks for all their deliveries -- this provided assured attended quality both in loading/unloading and in transit. It has been noted that above a certain daily quantity to be transported, you run out of money for all the required trucks, to say nothing if the drivers. Only the latter issue is helped much even by full professional-driving autonomy, and I expect Musk to be on Mars before he figures that out both satisfactorily and cost-effectively at the same time... or how to secure high-value cargo cheaply against damage when, as the old sexist tire commercial had it, 'there's no man around'.
Now I don't give Musk too long before all the other autonomous truck players begin to squeeze him badly, in a space where there will be few if any Teslarati fanbois championing him when he builds stuff that takes too long and doesn't do real-world truck right. I predict that is when he discovers autonomous rail MU control from BEVs, and the world changes again...
BaltACDConsidering the history of governmental intervention whenever railroads started thinking multi-modal in their transportation offerings, I would not expect the carriers to invest time and effort into non-railroad transportation ventures only to have it quashed by the Feds.
That was certainly true in the ICC era. I don't think that would be true anymore, as long as it is handled by a separate subsidiary like CN's intermodal trucking, so there's no temptation to cheat and haul across the country on a truck.
The railroads already offer dray truck operations. It would be a significant step into the trucking market, but Amazon just made the leap. They're working on being a total logistics company.
That's the future. As Ulrich says, make it easy for your customers.
ttrraaffiicc Honestly, this should be the going plan for railroads. There isn't any future for steel wheel on steel rail operations. The technology already suffered massively at the hands of trucking, but the jump that is about to be made by road freight in increased weight, electrification and autonomy will basically make it so that railroads are not a viable method of transport. Railroads could make the best of it by repurposing their RoWs. A paved Southern Transcon for autonomous electric trucks could bring huge increases for capacity and and speed of freight delivery while greatly decreasing costs.
To paraphrase 'When Harry met Sally' - I am NOT going to have what he is having.
I have never been that whacked out - even when I was on PAM (Patient Administered Morphine) during my colon cancer surgery.
It is evident that someone has absolutely NO IDEA of all the materials that are required to keep a vehicle assembly plant in operation, as well as moving the the vehicles produced on the output side of the operation. Auto racks haul 12 to 18 vehicles per rail car; truck auto carriers are half or less of that number; additionally with the staggered manner vhicles get loaded on auto carrying trucks it takes much longer to load a truck than it does a rail car.
The traveling public features that the number of trucks on the highways at present is excessive - the number of trucks required to 'replace' railroads would have the Interstate System in a condition of perpetual gridlock.
n012944 Bruce D Gillings If the railroads want to be moving autoparts where the vendors/suppliers are not within a relatively short distance from the plants, and moving finished autos, they will need to up their game on service. Management is increasingly focused on moving parts and finished autos in long, unreliable trains that cannot meet schedules. They view the world from a rail-centric paradigm and focus on THEIR costs, rather than a customer-centric paradigm wherein they understand their role in minimizing supply chain costs for the auto industry. Hmm..... https://www.progressiverailroading.com/csx_transportation/news/Toyota-honors-CSX-with-logistics-excellence-award--60839 Yep, sounds like Toyota is fed up with the service.
Bruce D Gillings If the railroads want to be moving autoparts where the vendors/suppliers are not within a relatively short distance from the plants, and moving finished autos, they will need to up their game on service. Management is increasingly focused on moving parts and finished autos in long, unreliable trains that cannot meet schedules. They view the world from a rail-centric paradigm and focus on THEIR costs, rather than a customer-centric paradigm wherein they understand their role in minimizing supply chain costs for the auto industry.
As someone who has worked at an auto plant, I could not imagine shipping vehicles without doing so by rail. I don't know if we could find enough trucks to move everything we made, not to mention the road congestion at the plant and local highways and interstates especially with the perpetual road construction. And arriving parts are always running behind in the winter snow storms, much more by truck than rail.
I wonder what the daily output is at a Telsa plant compaired to the other auto companies? We were putting out about 1600 vehicles every day five to six days a week and I think other plants produced far more. And even with everything we were shipping by rail, what was going by truck and parts being delivered added to employees coming in and leaving made local traffic congestion an issue not to mention again constant road construction. Not to mention just one bad accident bottling everything up. How many trucks would it take to replace two or three locomotives pulling auto carriers? Reality has a way of putting things in perspective.
Ralph
ttrraaffiiccHonestly, this should be the going plan for railroads. There isn't any future for steel wheel on steel rail operations. The technology already suffered massively at the hands of trucking, but the jump that is about to be made by road freight in increased weight, electrification and autonomy will basically make it so that railroads are not a viable method of transport. Railroads could make the best of it by repurposing their RoWs. A paved Southern Transcon for autonomous electric trucks could bring huge increases for capacity and and speed of freight delivery while greatly decreasing costs.
So what is your deal?
Or simply use the interstate highways.. no need to repurpose anything. I don't think the railroads are done by any means...But going forward they need to quit thinking of themselves as railroads and start marketing themselves as multimodal transportation providers. CN (to use one example) took a big step in that direction with their purchase of TransX and the intermodal portion of H&R.. Ostensibly they did that to gain access to the retail transportation market.. i.e. get rid of the middleman by buying the middleman and keeping the marketup they were getting in house. Look at it from a customer's perspective: You've got a bunch of freight to move.. so long as it gets delivered in a timely manner do you really care if goes truck or rail? Of course not.. here's my freight.. take it off my hands please and deliver it as quickly and as cost effectively as possible. From that standpoint (the all important customers' standpoint) it would make alot of sense to finally dispense with the intermodal rivalry that is a holdover from before Staggers..and which nobody outside of the transportation industry cares about. Oddly we often hear that transportation is a highly competitive business... yet.. most transportation vendors today (truck/rail/other) leave the low hanging fruit hanging because "we're a railroad".. "we're truckers".. etc.. the freight doesn't fit our basket so we walk right on by.
UlrichIf cheap electric trucks do come about then what's stopping CSX or any other railroad from buying them? So freight that no longer moves over the raiload still generates revenue for the carrier, albeit using trucks that travel on subsidized roads. And where it makes sense to ship rail then by all means continue to do so. Use the tool that's most appropriate for the job.. what a concept.
Honestly, this should be the going plan for railroads. There isn't any future for steel wheel on steel rail operations. The technology already suffered massively at the hands of trucking, but the jump that is about to be made by road freight in increased weight, electrification and autonomy will basically make it so that railroads are not a viable method of transport. Railroads could make the best of it by repurposing their RoWs. A paved Southern Transcon for autonomous electric trucks could bring huge increases for capacity and and speed of freight delivery while greatly decreasing costs.
NorthWest Ulrich If cheap electric trucks do come about then what's stopping CSX or any other railroad from buying them? So freight that no longer moves over the raiload still generates revenue for the carrier, albeit using trucks that travel on subsidized roads. And where it makes sense to ship rail then by all means continue to do so. Use the tool that's most appropriate for the job.. what a concept. This is common elsewhere in the world, and it leads to flexible thinking I don't see here, where railroad thinking tends to be very rail-centric.
Ulrich If cheap electric trucks do come about then what's stopping CSX or any other railroad from buying them? So freight that no longer moves over the raiload still generates revenue for the carrier, albeit using trucks that travel on subsidized roads. And where it makes sense to ship rail then by all means continue to do so. Use the tool that's most appropriate for the job.. what a concept.
This is common elsewhere in the world, and it leads to flexible thinking I don't see here, where railroad thinking tends to be very rail-centric.
Considering the history of governmental intervention whenever railroads started thinking multi-modal in their transportation offerings, I would not expect the carriers to invest time and effort into non-railroad transportation ventures only to have it quashed by the Feds.
If cheap electric trucks do come about then what's stopping CSX or any other railroad from buying them? So freight that no longer moves over the raiload still generates revenue for the carrier, albeit using trucks that travel on subsidized roads. And where it makes sense to ship rail then by all means continue to do so. Use the tool that's most appropriate for the job.. what a concept.
Overmod All sarcasm aside, the promise of both individual and relatively small-scale autonomous aircraft is an interesting one. There is no fundamental reason why the technologies cannot be made reasonably safe and, to an extent, cost-effective; it is likewise almost childishly simple to implement a combination of technological and procedural safeguards to make full safety compliance effective. Most of the control requirements for autonomous flight are much less rigorous and much more amenable to being 'algorithmized' than those for all-weather driving in a non-walled-garden environment. A combination of hybrid-electric small-place aircraft easily spans the gap right from bus/regional rail right up to long-distance providers (turbofan or similar aircraft or HSR depending on provision) and of course seamlessly works with a 'fair' version of rideshare jitney provision. Were the FAA to build out the second-tier network of regional airports with an analogue of the tower function Zunum rolled into their business model, it becomes theoretically practical to coordinate 'precision-scheduled' ground transportation with JIT-addressed efficient air. And in most cases, a combination of reasonable ICS/RCS with a slightly glorified BRS safety paravane takes care of disasters... Personal rotorcraft (think big octos or larger numbers of individual motors) become much more of a 'thing' when you can autonomously dispatch them on a share model just at the time and to the place needed, and redispatch them afterward. I would not be surprised to find an aftermarket for components of these things, as well as older but still capable systems. I'm surprised there hasn't been a bazaar-style open-systems development of a low-supersonic business-size airframe: the tools and widespread knowledge to set up and accomplish that have existed for many years. What you won't see is toys for the idle rich who often can't drive, let alone pilot. That's where most of the 'flying cars' have foundered. Modern autonomous design is already far beyond dependence on insanely complicated hardware or expensive operations.
All sarcasm aside, the promise of both individual and relatively small-scale autonomous aircraft is an interesting one. There is no fundamental reason why the technologies cannot be made reasonably safe and, to an extent, cost-effective; it is likewise almost childishly simple to implement a combination of technological and procedural safeguards to make full safety compliance effective.
Most of the control requirements for autonomous flight are much less rigorous and much more amenable to being 'algorithmized' than those for all-weather driving in a non-walled-garden environment. A combination of hybrid-electric small-place aircraft easily spans the gap right from bus/regional rail right up to long-distance providers (turbofan or similar aircraft or HSR depending on provision) and of course seamlessly works with a 'fair' version of rideshare jitney provision. Were the FAA to build out the second-tier network of regional airports with an analogue of the tower function Zunum rolled into their business model, it becomes theoretically practical to coordinate 'precision-scheduled' ground transportation with JIT-addressed efficient air. And in most cases, a combination of reasonable ICS/RCS with a slightly glorified BRS safety paravane takes care of disasters...
Personal rotorcraft (think big octos or larger numbers of individual motors) become much more of a 'thing' when you can autonomously dispatch them on a share model just at the time and to the place needed, and redispatch them afterward. I would not be surprised to find an aftermarket for components of these things, as well as older but still capable systems. I'm surprised there hasn't been a bazaar-style open-systems development of a low-supersonic business-size airframe: the tools and widespread knowledge to set up and accomplish that have existed for many years.
What you won't see is toys for the idle rich who often can't drive, let alone pilot. That's where most of the 'flying cars' have foundered. Modern autonomous design is already far beyond dependence on insanely complicated hardware or expensive operations.
The main issue with personal aviation, is eliminating the layperson from any aspect of piloting and cost. I have more confidence in the future of autonomous aircraft than I do in ground based vehicles. The key to aviation is battery technology advancing to the point where the weight of a human can be lifted and propelled forward. This is key to the cost aspect. The navigation technology is already here.
The issue with ground transportation, is that they still rely on the current road structure, and will have to be shared with conventional vehicles, with human drivers of often less than optimum driving skills. This can only be obtained by attrition over decades. Americans are not going to give up their current vehicles easily. It would take a considerable government financial incentive to do so.
Juniata ManWhen Musk starts building personal hovercraft in another decade, his electric autonomous trucks will be obsolete too as these new vehicles will simply fly themselves to dearlerships around the country.
It dawned on me the other day to wonder when Musk will buy up a large regional, tear out the tracks, and pave a two lane dedicated road for his autonomous trucks... Proof of concept, you know.
NorthWest That requires enough assets to meet commitments.
The very antithesis of PSR.
Aside from the roadgoing safety of hydrogen carrier fuel at the required volume, this is obviously a better proposal than Musk's in any practical operating sense apart from, perhaps, custom critical. On the other hand it is precisely parallel to iLINT in the importance of providing a high-integrity hydrogen infrastructure, which for much prospective American OTR likely involves a distributed hydrogen-generation architecture coupled with reiable third-party sourcing and delivery. The issue is vasty complicated, however, unless there is government buy-in and support of the supply infrastructure (as there is where I've seen iLINT-type alternative fueling successful). I doubt there is room in this space for two full supply infrastructures, and far too many common DoS methods to make large investments abruptly nonprofitable or even effectively unusable. Note that a bound is imposed, no matter how silly in the long run, by Megacharger buildout and provision for EV traction-battery recharge (or other forms of electrically-driven recharge or reforming). We already see a number of 'electric' race teams relying on relatively large gensets for their real-time charging, and I expect this is often going to be the model for truckstop charging-intrastructure buildout (as opposed to large 'supposed' electricity-fairy pixie-dust sprinkling with renewables that don't source nearly enough and distribution architecture with enormous straned cost and little alternative usefulness).
One might argue that the renewable liquid fuel used in those large generators might equally or better be used in small sustainer engines (or reforming plants) on electric-drivetrain Class 8 tractors, for far better flexibility while retaining the ability to use supplemental power for grades or special environmental conditions...
BaltACD Car movement data is available to all customers through the AAR. There are a number of 3rd party vendors who market data packages to fit each the needs of each customer. Those that are data blind are so because they want to be.
Car movement data is available to all customers through the AAR. There are a number of 3rd party vendors who market data packages to fit each the needs of each customer. Those that are data blind are so because they want to be.
Shhhh, don't tell them that. What would they say when they see all these cars bouncing back and forth between terminals for no apparent reason!?
While I disagree with Ttrraaffiicc and Bruce on the current state of auto transport by rail, I agree that the Class I's need to up their game if they want to keep this traffic in the future. And they are heading in the wrong direction.
This focus on ultra-long trains and the operating ratio at the expense of everything and everyone else needs to end.
Despite my mistrust of management in general, I know that there are good individual folks in the marketing, customer service, and operations departments of all the big railroads. I hope that some of them eventually rise to positions where they can create some real change.
As a T&E service employee, I would not be listened to if I ever dared to suggest any improvements.
"Y'all 'l speak when spoken to"......
NorthWest SD60MAC9500 The main problem facing the RR's are transparency. Customers would like to know car arrival/departure to better plan production, etc. This simple addition alone will increase traffic on the rails by giving customers assurance of car availability, schedules,etc. I think the bigger challenge is actually committing to meeting such a schedule, which is likely a big part of the reason car tracking AEI data is not shared with most customers. Right now, travel times and schedule compliance metrics are erratic and subject to gamesmanship on the part of those in the field. Future success will depend on establishing that kind of schedule transparency and sticking to it. Operational discipline is key. That requires enough assets to meet commitments.
SD60MAC9500 The main problem facing the RR's are transparency. Customers would like to know car arrival/departure to better plan production, etc. This simple addition alone will increase traffic on the rails by giving customers assurance of car availability, schedules,etc.
I think the bigger challenge is actually committing to meeting such a schedule, which is likely a big part of the reason car tracking AEI data is not shared with most customers.
Right now, travel times and schedule compliance metrics are erratic and subject to gamesmanship on the part of those in the field. Future success will depend on establishing that kind of schedule transparency and sticking to it.
Operational discipline is key. That requires enough assets to meet commitments.
SD60MAC9500The main problem facing the RR's are transparency. Customers would like to know car arrival/departure to better plan production, etc. This simple addition alone will increase traffic on the rails by giving customers assurance of car availability, schedules,etc.
Anyone have thoughts regarding the Nikola startup in Arizona which will make hydrogen-powered semis for long distance OTR travel? I think they have some German backing. https://nikolamotor.com/motor
A good discussion so far. I am interested to hear what CMQ_9017 has to say about this, though I definitely agree with Bruce here.
Bruce D Gillings If the railroads want to be moving autoparts where the vendors/suppliers are not within a relatively short distance from the plants, and moving finished autos, they will need to up their game on service. Management is increasingly focused on moving parts and finished autos in long, unreliable trains that cannot meet schedules. They view the world from a rail-centric paradigm and focus on THEIR costs, rather than a customer-centric paradigm wherein they understand their role in minimizing supply chain costs for the auto industry. The probable end result over the next decade does not bode well for railroading. PSR (an oxymoron if ever there was one, at least as practiced in today’s railroad world), will not cut it. Kudos to ttrraaffiicc who continues calling this out. The shots back at him are disappointing, though not entirely unexpected. He is calling them as he sees them. My experiences as an “outsider” who deals with the end users of transportation services are consistent with virtually everything I have seen him post. Railroads ARE on the path to becoming irrelevant and losing market share to trucks. The dramatic changes in information technology, AI, and automation occurring within manufacturing, processing, and distribution facilities continue their spread throughout the entire supply chain network. Failure to adjust to that – and the failure is confounding within railroading – will equate to irrelevance that will reach a critical mass and doom the industry. There will likely remain a much smaller network of heavy-haul and bulk operations for rail, but that’s about it. Whether or not one agrees with autonomous trucking (I see it phasing in within the next 10 to 15 years), the changes in trucking, the huge investments coming in road networks (that is coming – the people with money are making sure of it), the overall increases in the efficiencies in trucking, and the information integration of trucking will make most non-heavy-haul and bulk railroading non-competitive in the value metrics of supply chains. My hat is off to ttrraaffiicc for not being discouraged by all the naysayers in each of his posts. What is needed is a rethinking of how railroading can become relevant again for what fits in a trailer or container, which is MOST of what is out there. It is in the voices of the decision makers in most industries, it is in the communications of trade publications and organizations. The direction of evolution is not where railroading is going. Change is needed; ttrraaffiicc and a few others on these posts realize it and need to be listened to.
To counter your first paragraph.. The big 3 and other AM's find the railroads service meeting their needs. If this were the case, RR's would not still handle a large volume of auto parts via intermodal these days, with some still moving in 86' boxcars.. Example of the former. CSX Q150/151 Livernois YD-UP Salem, IL. Auto parts to Mexico. Intermodal can cover indirect access to plant's. As can finished auto's. Finished auto's are moving faster in exisitng trains instead of waiting to build enough volume for a dedicated train. Still waiting on hearing complaints about this.
One other item about customer service. When NS announced it was shutting down Triple Crown. Ford sat down with NS to maintain trains 255/256 Oakwood YD(Melvindale, MI)-Voltz YD KC, MO moving parts for F-150 production to Fords Claycomo plant in KC, MO. The plan to follow if TC were to end serivce in this lane called for. Building an IM block loaded with EMP boxes of auto parts at Livernois YD(Detroit, MI) to KC, MO. Ford wanted the quicker trailer availability vs chassis. NS kept the service for Ford. Unreliable you say? Hardly..TC provides the JIT for Ford on schedule.
The main problem facing the RR's are transparency. Customers would like to know car arrival/departure to better plan production, etc. This simple addition alone will increase traffic on the rails by giving customers assurance of car availability, schedules,etc. You say RR's are falling out of favor? .. Well two of the worlds largest retailers; Walmart, and Amazon purchasing 53' boxes speaks volumes to me. That says they have confidence in the rail network going forward. So as much as some like to write off the rail service they must be doing something right. Most freight is not time sensitive anyway and most in logistics (such as yourself Bruce) know this.. It's about arrival and departure on schedule. Not how fast you can get there.
Not sure what today's counts are - when I was working CSX was moving 90 racks a day to the Twin Oaks TDSI Distribution Center (Philadelphia), 90 racks a day to the Jessup TDSI Center and 60 a day to the Baltimore TDSI Center. Trucks would then move the 12 to 18 vehicle per rail car from the TDSI Centers to the automobile dealers in the areas served. I think there are something like 24 TDSI Centers on the CSX property.
Overmod What's amusing is that it's like 'deja vu all over again' with the William H. Vanderbilts wanting to run as slow and self-convenient as the traffic will bear and everyone wanting assured service going to private express lines that can collectively obtain faster service and better QoS from those Vanderbilts. Here we see rail-savvy shippers expanding the potential number of wells or platforms that would be used for a given move... right up into guaranteed-block traffic and size that interest lazy coupon-cutting hedge-fund-manipulated investors who manage the men that manage things. Will be interesting to see the degree to which this unlocks quicker blocking through intermediate points, better use of peak notch restriction, etc. If I were younger I would be sending resumes around angling for interest; there is a turning-point opportunity here that the wide swath of PSR-crazed railroads can't or won't exploit.
What's amusing is that it's like 'deja vu all over again' with the William H. Vanderbilts wanting to run as slow and self-convenient as the traffic will bear and everyone wanting assured service going to private express lines that can collectively obtain faster service and better QoS from those Vanderbilts.
Here we see rail-savvy shippers expanding the potential number of wells or platforms that would be used for a given move... right up into guaranteed-block traffic and size that interest lazy coupon-cutting hedge-fund-manipulated investors who manage the men that manage things. Will be interesting to see the degree to which this unlocks quicker blocking through intermediate points, better use of peak notch restriction, etc. If I were younger I would be sending resumes around angling for interest; there is a turning-point opportunity here that the wide swath of PSR-crazed railroads can't or won't exploit.
Hey, you should get a regular column in Trains writing about such ideas. You could call yourself, I don't know, the Professional Iconoclast?
The world of logistics is moving towards a world where transparency, reliability and service are imperative for success.
After building out their own shipping network to reduce reliance on others, Amazon announced last week that they will offer up to full-truckload service for small and medium businesses in their trucking network.
J.B. Hunt announced they had put together a freight brokerage website ensuring customers were matched with the lowest cost truck, regardless of whether or not it is Hunt or another provider.
Shippers want a box to show up at the scheduled time, have it depart at the scheduled time, and want it to arrive at the scheduled time, all for the lowest cost. They don't want to have to deal with service failures or the consequences.
That's what these new platforms, a step towards Freight Mobility as a Service, are offering.
This, however, is the antithesis of current railroad behavior, which is all about adapting the customer to the needs of the railroad. This only works for captive customers and commodities, so the emphasis is on price discipline, as bragged about in earnings calls. At the moment, rates are up, service quality and traffic are down, and customers are unhappy.
In the long run, this is no strategy, particularly with coal declining, manufacturing likely to onshore or move to geographies favoring East Coast ports, and the general decline in industrial shipments in the US.
To grow in the future, consumer traffic will need to be a focus, and it largely moves in truck and container boxes. As long as it leaves on a truck and arrives on a truck, the customer doesn't care what it does in the mean time, provided it shows up on time.
Therein lies an opportunity. But it's going to take a complete alteration of railroad thinking to thrive in this space. It's going to require terminal and dray cost reductions to make modal switching cheap enough that the overal cost is lower than OTR trucking. It's going to require more, speedier terminals.
Overall, it's going to require a recongition that the landscape of freight is shifting, and money will have to be spent adapting to it.
But if the strategy is to downplay the threats rather than address them, the future loooks bleak. And the nice thing is, service improvements and reliability benefit everything that isn't moving in a box, too.
BLS53In the world these guys exist in, it's entirely feasible. The problem is that none of it's practical, because it requires too many changes with the existing transportation system, and the vehicles are too expensive to reach critical mass. If you can't reach critical mass in a short period of time, it requires a phase-in time encompassing decades, in which the new technology exist along with the old, and in this case the new and old aren't compatible. This isn't like going from steam to diesels, or props to jets, where large industries control the system. Everyone with a drivers license and owns a car is involved. We know the variety and age of cars on the road. This isn't going to change overnight. Hybrid vehicles have been around for awhile, and how much market share do they have? This isn't like buying a smartphone.
Quoting you because I completely agree with this. Side note, Smartphones at $1k each were a major fail--consumers didn't buy them and manufacturers had to come up with creative ways to get them sold, like leasing and special financing. Today, the average household cannot afford an average new ICE car, much less an EV or HEV. I can see EV and HEV coexisting with traditional ICE vehicles for a very long time. Completely different situation than steam and diesel on an individual railroad as you said. A better comparison would be steam vs diesel on different railroads, like Santa fe vs. Norfolk & Western.
zugmann Psychot The nasty things being said about Musk are much like the things that were said about virtually every visionary in the history of the world. Game-changers scare people. I've watched a few videos/read a few discussions about some of the scummy stuff they do with "unauthorized repairs" and supercharger access and the like.
Psychot The nasty things being said about Musk are much like the things that were said about virtually every visionary in the history of the world. Game-changers scare people.
I've watched a few videos/read a few discussions about some of the scummy stuff they do with "unauthorized repairs" and supercharger access and the like.
Yeah, they're just like Apple, Google and Facebook that way.
Musk certainly is a visionary and has really shaken up the auto industry and indeed the world in general (anyone here use PayPal?), but some of his actions make me view him as a reckless, self-serving egomaniac.
Kind of like a stoner version of Hunter Harrison......
PsychotThe nasty things being said about Musk are much like the things that were said about virtually every visionary in the history of the world. Game-changers scare people.
The nasty things being said about Musk are much like the things that were said about virtually every visionary in the history of the world. Game-changers scare people.
Having said that, I hope he doesn't succeed in his promise to eliminate rail transportation--at least in my lifetime.
Inbound Shipments - JIT (Just In Time) manufacturing has reduced the number of parts deliveries by rail to auto plants. As stated previously, many parts are now produced nearby or at the plant. Some parts are still delivered by rail such as truck frames for the Texas Toyota Plant. Many auto companies have embraced the campus concept of manufacturing where both the suppliers and the main producer are located in one facility.
Outbound Shipments - Many auto plants built in the last 20 years have rail spurs for autoracks. Just look at the Toyota Texas Plant or the KIA plant built that is located in one of the other southern states.
As for Tesla Fremont, the plant is located off the UP mainline and was served by that railroad in previous incarnation as NUMMI. When Tesla took took over there were discussions between the two parties about shipping from the plant that went no where. The same thing happened a couple of years about shipping batteries from Nevada to Fremont.
n012944 One of the larger auto loading ramps in the Detroit area is in New Boston MI. It is miles from the nearest auto plant, cars are trucked in from all over the area. Telsa currently trucks cars from their CA plant to the BNSF in Richmond and the UP in Milpitas for transit. Direct rail access is no longer needed to ship by rail, as Tesla and the big 3 in the Detroit area are already doing. This is just another case of the OP trolling.
One of the larger auto loading ramps in the Detroit area is in New Boston MI. It is miles from the nearest auto plant, cars are trucked in from all over the area.
Telsa currently trucks cars from their CA plant to the BNSF in Richmond and the UP in Milpitas for transit. Direct rail access is no longer needed to ship by rail, as Tesla and the big 3 in the Detroit area are already doing. This is just another case of the OP trolling.
You're talking about TDSI a CSX subsidiary. Many moons ago I made drops and PU's at that facility. If I remember correctly they have room for 75+ racks. Not sure about today but once again many moons ago 4-6 Q200 series (Automotive) trains serviced the facility.
Erik_Mag ttrraaffiicc He is probably going to be right on this one. Numerous experts including Rod Case seem to agree that electric trucks will signifcantly reduce rail volumes as it will make trucks more economical in a lot of cases. I don't see battery technology advancing to the point where long distance hauling by electric trucks makes sense. A related issue is the charging infrastructure and the means to provide the on-demand electric power. Long distance electric haulage of freight is done better with rail.
ttrraaffiicc He is probably going to be right on this one. Numerous experts including Rod Case seem to agree that electric trucks will signifcantly reduce rail volumes as it will make trucks more economical in a lot of cases.
He is probably going to be right on this one. Numerous experts including Rod Case seem to agree that electric trucks will signifcantly reduce rail volumes as it will make trucks more economical in a lot of cases.
I don't see battery technology advancing to the point where long distance hauling by electric trucks makes sense. A related issue is the charging infrastructure and the means to provide the on-demand electric power.
Long distance electric haulage of freight is done better with rail.
I agree!
The only question is if the industry will wake up in time to get it done.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
ttrraaffiicc https://www.theverge.com/2020/7/22/21334860/tesla-cybertruck-factory-austin-texas-location-model-y Tesla is building a new plant in Austin. Unfortunately, it will not be served by any railroads. All the parts and all the finished cars and pickup trucks will leave the plant on trucks. This plant's central location will allow Tesla to eliminate the remaining rail shipments they use because it is much closer to the east coast. In addition, this plant will also produce the Tesla Semi. Tesla will use the Semi to deliver their cars, making truck delivery much more economical and cost competitive with rail. As Tesla sets the trend and others follow, it is likely that the mighty auto rack could fall into obscurity, just as the 86' boxcar already has. What do you think? Will railroads still participate in fulfilling the transport needs of the auto industry in the future?
https://www.theverge.com/2020/7/22/21334860/tesla-cybertruck-factory-austin-texas-location-model-y Tesla is building a new plant in Austin. Unfortunately, it will not be served by any railroads. All the parts and all the finished cars and pickup trucks will leave the plant on trucks. This plant's central location will allow Tesla to eliminate the remaining rail shipments they use because it is much closer to the east coast. In addition, this plant will also produce the Tesla Semi. Tesla will use the Semi to deliver their cars, making truck delivery much more economical and cost competitive with rail. As Tesla sets the trend and others follow, it is likely that the mighty auto rack could fall into obscurity, just as the 86' boxcar already has. What do you think? Will railroads still participate in fulfilling the transport needs of the auto industry in the future?
LOL..... I don't think ttrraaffiicc is in the lane of reality at this point.. You use Tesla as the benchmark of auto transport by rail? When Tesla last year only made up 1.1% of domestic vehicle sales (Sales dropped 1.21% for Tesla ending FY 2019). GM, Ford, Honda, Nissan, and Toyota dominate domestic vehicle sales per annum, and all are significant shippers of finished autos by rail. 75% of finished autos are transported by rail domestically. I'm curious to how you think Tesla which has a micro fraction of per annum DVS will shoot past the former to dominate auto sales. All the while eliminating auto transport by rail? Economies of scale will still apply when AV's hit the market FYI...
ttrraaffiicc SD70Dude FYI - much of the auto parts traffic that used to move in 86' boxcars still moves by rail for much of its journey, it just goes in intermodal containers. That's not entirely true. If it were, 86' boxcars would still be in service. In most cases, the parts traffic was lost to trucks or just doesn't exist at all anymore. The reason being that auto plants have become more centralized with parts being sourced from nearby or manufactured directly at the plant. SD70Dude Musk seems to think that his self-driving electric semi will one day replace railroads, so I am not surprised that he is planning for a non-rail supply chain. We'll see how realistic those cost comparisons actually are in the He is probably going to be right on this one. Numerous experts including Rod Case seem to agree that electric trucks will signifcantly reduce rail volumes as it will make trucks more economical in a lot of cases. As Tesla expands its share of the US market, we will see fewer cars transported by rail. tbh, rail delivery of cars doesn't make much sense anyway, given their high value and requirement of flexibility for deliver and inventory.
SD70Dude FYI - much of the auto parts traffic that used to move in 86' boxcars still moves by rail for much of its journey, it just goes in intermodal containers.
That's not entirely true. If it were, 86' boxcars would still be in service. In most cases, the parts traffic was lost to trucks or just doesn't exist at all anymore. The reason being that auto plants have become more centralized with parts being sourced from nearby or manufactured directly at the plant.
SD70Dude Musk seems to think that his self-driving electric semi will one day replace railroads, so I am not surprised that he is planning for a non-rail supply chain. We'll see how realistic those cost comparisons actually are in the
As Tesla expands its share of the US market, we will see fewer cars transported by rail. tbh, rail delivery of cars doesn't make much sense anyway, given their high value and requirement of flexibility for deliver and inventory.
What SD70 said is true. Stop trying to play semantics. Majority of autoparts move via 53' Contianers now, and 86' boxcars are still in service unless those ones I see at: Ford's Woodhaven stamping plant, Ford's Dearborn Truck plant, FCA's Sterling stamping plant, NS trains, CN trains, CSX trains, and CP trains are figments of my imagination... Conjecture doesn't win debates..
I still don't see that EV's are economical long term. I'm on my second gas-electric, and I find those make sense. I don't see myself going back to a gas vehicle. Mfrs are spending a pile on EVs. Seems very high risk to me.
54light15 I've read on You Tube I think that someone said, Elon Musk sounds like either a Star Wars character that everyone hated in a sequel that no one liked, or an aftershave lotion that smells really really bad. I laughed, anyway. I have heard that if you own a Tesla, you can only get it serviced at a Tesla dealer as everything in it is proprietary. A friend just bought a Chevrolet Bolt and it's made of conventional GM components and can be serviced at any GM dealer or local garage that is familiar with them. With a Tesla, you would be violating their intellectual property if you did that. Not to change the subject from the thread, but to me Musk is a charlatan. His stock prices are high yet the company is not profitable and he makes a stupid amount of money. How does that happen? OK rant over.
I've read on You Tube I think that someone said, Elon Musk sounds like either a Star Wars character that everyone hated in a sequel that no one liked, or an aftershave lotion that smells really really bad. I laughed, anyway.
I have heard that if you own a Tesla, you can only get it serviced at a Tesla dealer as everything in it is proprietary. A friend just bought a Chevrolet Bolt and it's made of conventional GM components and can be serviced at any GM dealer or local garage that is familiar with them. With a Tesla, you would be violating their intellectual property if you did that. Not to change the subject from the thread, but to me Musk is a charlatan. His stock prices are high yet the company is not profitable and he makes a stupid amount of money. How does that happen? OK rant over.
I don't think it's as much as Musk being a charlatan, as it is him not being a realist. The reason he's not a realist, is he's surrounded by like minded people, who all live in a bubble and don't understand the plight of the average consumer when it comes to personal transportation. He and his like, made their money innovating new communications technology, that revolutioned the world over a short period of time. This technology required relatively little investment at the consumer end, to the point that it was affordable for the masses. If you read or watch any presentations by Musk or other lesser known innovators in this arena, they always respond to naysayers by drawing an analogy with the rapid advances in communications, and that the same thing is on the brink of occuring in personal transportation. Whether it be electric and self-driving cars, or increasing battery technology such as exist today in small drones, to the point everyone has a personal helicopter.
In the world these guys exist in, it's entirely feasible. The problem is that none of it's practical, because it requires too many changes with the existing transportation system, and the vehicles are too expensive to reach critical mass. If you can't reach critical mass in a short period of time, it requires a phase-in time encompassing decades, in which the new technology exist along with the old, and in this case the new and old aren't compatible. This isn't like going from steam to diesels, or props to jets, where large industries control the system. Everyone with a drivers license and owns a car is involved. We know the variety and age of cars on the road. This isn't going to change overnight. Hybrid vehicles have been around for awhile, and how much market share do they have? This isn't like buying a smartphone.
Juniata ManOne can only wonder what our friend traffic will gush about then.
Whatever his checks are from.
As soon as the big auto manufacturers get serious about EVs, Tesla will be gone in a heartbeat.
JPS1 ttrraaffiicc https://www.theverge.com/2020/7/22/21334860/tesla-cybertruck-factory-austin-texas-location-model-y Tesla is building a new plant in Austin. Unfortunately, it will not be served by any railroads. Railroad does not appear in the article. The UP serves Bastrop, which is approximately 23 miles east of Bergstrom International Airport. It would not take a lot for the UP to build a line from its Bastrop location to the plant site.
ttrraaffiicc https://www.theverge.com/2020/7/22/21334860/tesla-cybertruck-factory-austin-texas-location-model-y Tesla is building a new plant in Austin. Unfortunately, it will not be served by any railroads.
Tesla is building a new plant in Austin. Unfortunately, it will not be served by any railroads.
Railroad does not appear in the article. The UP serves Bastrop, which is approximately 23 miles east of Bergstrom International Airport. It would not take a lot for the UP to build a line from its Bastrop location to the plant site.
As Tttrro..., I mean Ttrraafficc, has pointed out they truck production to a railhead elsewhere. There's a good chance they'll do that there if they want to ship by rail. I'll bet they do. They may not want to have an actual railroad connection because of Musk's 'promises' of the future that he will single handedly wipe out all freight railroads.
I've heard the autorack in North Platte that went up in flame was loaded with Teslas.
I'm done feeding the trolls.
Jeff
(Sarcasm alert!)
When Musk starts building personal hovercraft in another decade, his electric autonomous trucks will be obsolete too as these new vehicles will simply fly themselves to dearlerships around the country.
One can only wonder what our friend traffic will gush about then.
SD70Dudehow is this the fault of the railroads?
It's not. It is just a consequence of changing economic conditions. To elaborate more on my assertion, this is why you see fewer manifacturing plants. The have become larger and more centralized. It is also why facilities like the Ford Engine Plant in Windsor have ceased rail shipments entirely. As the roster of plants thins and becomes more centralized the longest any of their engines will travel is 50 miles. It is also the reason why you no longer see any auto plants on the west coast.
SD70Dudedoesn't Tesla's current assembly plant in California have rail service?
No. The siding was torn out. If Tesla ever ships by rail, they take the cars to Richmond to go out on BNSF.
Elon Musk is somewhat of a 'birdseed' salesman:IMHO. He seems to be able to parlay his grandious ideas, into ventures that rely on other peoples money. His fortunes 'play' on the 'vagueries' of the stock market. His ability to publicise and 'pyramid' schemes seems to be amazing:
FTL:"...The company said its progress in the first half of the year has positioned it for success in the second half as production output continues to improve. Telsa also said it has picked a site for its second U.S. assembly plant, although the location wasn't released. The Austin, Texas, area appeared to be the front-runner but Tulsa, Oklahoma, was a possibility.
The surprising profit, compared with a $408 million loss a year ago, pushed Tesla's shares up 5.1% to $1,674.09 in after-hours trading..."
Tesla would have lost money, though, without $428 million it earned from selling electric vehicle credits to other automakers so they can meet government fuel economy and pollution regulations..." [my emphasis]
From linked site @ https://auto.hindustantimes.com/auto/news/elon-musk-beats-mukesh-ambani-to-become-fifth-richest-billionaire-for-a-while-41595474548011.html
His is the sort of thing that combines, publicity, politics, and economics. Scarey to watch, but a kind of tight-rope walking act. Hope he's got a net under him, when he falls; the results may be very ugly. Just my thoughts.
ttrraaffiicc SD70Dude FYI - much of the auto parts traffic that used to move in 86' boxcars still moves by rail for much of its journey, it just goes in intermodal containers. That's not entirely true. If it were, 86' boxcars would still be in service. In most cases, the parts traffic was lost to trucks or just doesn't exist at all anymore. The reason being that auto plants have become more centralized with parts being sourced from nearby or manufactured directly at the plant.
Assuming you are correct, and that's a big assumption based on some of your past writings, how is this the fault of the railroads? And how much of the raw materials are still hauled by rail to the relocated parts manufacturing plants? The can't all be next to a steel mill or aluminium smelter.....
ttrraaffiicc SD70Dude Musk seems to think that his self-driving electric semi will one day replace railroads, so I am not surprised that he is planning for a non-rail supply chain. We'll see how realistic those cost comparisons actually are in the He is probably going to be right on this one. Numerous experts including Rod Case seem to agree that electric trucks will signifcantly reduce rail volumes as it will make trucks more economical in a lot of cases. As Tesla expands its share of the US market, we will see fewer cars transported by rail. tbh, rail delivery of cars doesn't make much sense anyway, given their high value and requirement of flexibility for deliver and inventory.
If it doesn't make sense, then why has it endured for so many decades? Tesla is but one of many manufacturers, and they can't all be located close to the dealerships. And doesn't Tesla's current assembly plant in California have rail service?
You are also discounting finished vehicles that are imported or exported from North America by ship, major terminals are located in Vancouver, Halifax and Los Angeles, to name a few offhand. Not many assembly plants located nearby.....
SD70DudeFYI - much of the auto parts traffic that used to move in 86' boxcars still moves by rail for much of its journey, it just goes in intermodal containers.
SD70DudeMusk seems to think that his self-driving electric semi will one day replace railroads, so I am not surprised that he is planning for a non-rail supply chain. We'll see how realistic those cost comparisons actually are in the
But if autoracks go away, what will Homeland Security have to tranport the shackled.
https://www.theverge.com/2020/7/22/21334860/tesla-cybertruck-factory-austin-texas-location-model-y
The railroads recaptured finished auto traffic from trucks in the past, they could do it again. Of course, that would require some marketing prowness and initiative that is very much lacking in the thouroughly PSRed Class I's these days.
Musk seems to think that his self-driving electric semi will one day replace railroads, so I am not surprised that he is planning for a non-rail supply chain. We'll see how realistic those cost comparisons actually are in the current real world.
FYI - much of the auto parts traffic that used to move in 86' boxcars still moves by rail for much of its journey, it just goes in intermodal containers.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.